The right way to transition after 25 - Vicki Opinion

[Vicki Richter]

I never said that.

I wasn't refering exclusively to you on that, apolgies if it came off like that.

There are people on this board that are so willing to throw the old hags under the bus. Admitedly, I don't want any intimate dealings with them but I do support thier right to be who they are and to live how they choose to live. In fact I kind of admire that courage. That thing that says 'fuck it, I may not pass and I may be ugly to most but this is who I am'.

For whatever reason they didn't transition at a young age. A lot of people will hold that against them as if they are less of a transsexual compared to a girl like yourself. I don't know thier story and just feel that none of us has the right to judge them for doing what they feel is right in thier heart for thier own lives.

I just really don't get how TS women (with the way that society looks upon you as a whole)can be so quite to descriminate against the next girl because her path to becoming a woman was different or because of how she looks.

It seems so based on outer and superficial reasons.

I don't feel it is superficial so much as being responsible to the rest of us. In Thailand TS are expected to look like women for the most part. This is one reason why their acceptance is higher than ours. If all of our TS actually looked like women to a large extent, instead of this - turn 40, do nothing to transition, but start calling yourself a TS thing that happens, it would be a lot easier on all of us.

I am not saying all TS women have to be stealth, but at least put in some effort besides makeup and a dress. That is a full time CD in my opinion. How does she not expect her coworkers to "talk about her"? That is to be expected. My opinion on how someone like this should transition is as follows:

While still dressing like a man:
- 1 year laser
- 1 year hormones
- Both ears pierced
- If you have short hair, grow it out.
- Please practice your voice. A deep voice on a TS isn't feminine and anybody can work on and improve this. It's annoying when girls don't even appear to try. Get a voice training tape they really work from the girls I have heard.

At this point you can start acting "mildly" and I stress mildly feminine. Your appearance will change as the facial hair goes, and hormones will have some affect on your skin.

If you have a good job like this person:
- Plan FFS with a GOOD doctor. If you have to borrow money do it. It is hugely worth it.
- Plan any body modifications
- See a doctor if you choose to
- Plan a name change

Basically, what you are doing is letting people build up slowly to your changing disposition and appearance. When you take that extra step, it won't be so shocking and appalling. The best thing would be to take a long vacation or brief leave of absence if your work allows for it. A lot of times employees can save up vacation one year and bridge it into the next. For example if you have 2 weeks of vacation, save it up for the last few weeks of December and then take your following year's vacation in January for 4-5 weeks off.

Go get your FFS and other surgeries during this leave. Also, because you have gotten all of your planning out of the way, have your name legally changed during this time as well.

Then, right before you go back to work, schedule a meeting with HR. Give them a heads up. Chances are they won't have any clue on how to deal with something like this. However, perhaps they could have some sensitivity training with folks before you return.

Regardless, when you go back, you will look different, feel different, and have a new name and hopefully an ID that reflects your appropriate gender. People will still talk, but they will likely say, "yeah I saw that coming" instead of "what a freak! Look at that freak!"

Obviously, you have to gauge all this by your company. If you work for a small company, they might fire you anyway. But a company like DHL is big enough to have some policies around this kind of thing.

Finally, expect it to be hard and not fun for awhile. However, if you go in looking as feminine as possible, things will be much easier for you and your coworkers. Transition responsibly.

[BrendaQG]

That is all great advice that I wish more people would follow. You know what's sad Vicky? The people who really need to hear it would disregard it simply because of the occupation of the source. :-/ Their loss.

A big objection you would hear to that , I'll bet, is that they don't want anyone to think they are gay.

[youcancallmeclaire]

I totally feel the same way. The overnight transition thing makes no sense to me.
I think.... when someone completely changes that quickly, people see it as a rash decision or even a joke.

I started with changing little things slowly beginning like 8 years ago, things no one would notice. It was so gradual that no one really cares now.

Even as far as my name goes, I didn't immediately switch to my current one. First, I went by initials, then altogether stopped using my old one, then I switched to a genderless sort of nickname, then a more feminine nickname, and finally my current name.

People just sort of went with it, and I had a pretty uneventful transition while managing not to lose any friends or family.

[Alison Faraday]

I switched over overnight.

The trouble in the UK is that the NHS practically controls everything, and without their support you're stuffed. Private treatment is even intertwined with the NHS, such that you can't just avoid them by throwing sums of money at it.

Like for my private surgery I've still needed NHS documentation from my GP. The NHS control the timetable for alot of these transitioners, and if you don't comply then they can and do make your life absolute hell.

One thing that the NHS now do is to make people transition WITHOUT hormones. You have to do your first year without HRT. If you're not in employment, boom, your RLE isn't recognised

This whole discussion here is as a result of the NHS. That person in the other thread will have been subject to the NHS, they would have had no choice. It's an archaic organisation with 1960's views. Saying that though, the government (NHS) does have in place significant protection for transsexuals. We get passports, driving licences, and birth certificates. The discrimination payouts are also unlimited. Payouts have been as high as £250k ($500).

These pictures are from just before I transitioned. I was still wearing guy clothes then!! and a belt with extra hole cut in it.

Looking back on them, they're just so scary!!

[Vicki Richter]

You were very androgynous. Not many can say that.

I disagree on hormones. Many TS self medicate. It may not be cheap or free or discounted, but it is doable. Odd that you can't self medicate when most of the online drug stores are in Europe and will ship to the USA. I would never let the government get involved with my T.

[SarahG]

I switched over overnight.

The trouble in the UK is that the NHS practically controls everything, and without their support you're stuffed. Private treatment is even intertwined with the NHS, such that you can't just avoid them by throwing sums of money at it.

Like for my private surgery I've still needed NHS documentation from my GP. The NHS control the timetable for alot of these transitioners, and if you don't comply then they can and do make your life absolute hell.

One thing that the NHS now do is to make people transition WITHOUT hormones. You have to do your first year without HRT. If you're not in employment, boom, your RLE isn't recognised

This whole discussion here is as a result of the NHS. That person in the other thread will have been subject to the NHS, they would have had no choice. It's an archaic organisation with 1960's views. Saying that though, the government (NHS) does have in place significant protection for transsexuals. We get passports, driving licences, and birth certificates. The discrimination payouts are also unlimited. Payouts have been as high as £250k ($500).

And to think there are people who want to bring that flavor of universal health care to the United States.

I learned all I needed to learn of the gender clinic model of transitioning from one of my mom's doctors (who worked in the American form of those clinics decades ago). This "medical professional" feels that hrt before 35 is unethical, immoral and should be illegal- and will employ any and everything she can think of to discourage or otherwise prevent people younger from 35 from transitioning (most especially in terms of stuff like hrt, plastic surgery and other treatments).

I had this "professional" spoon feeding my mom that kind of crap (to say it lightly) for years, the whole "if a patient does it at 17/18/etc they'll certainly die, it would be lethal, no way around it" and all kinds of similar blatant lies. This was an annoyance for me more than anything else, I was not dependent on my mom's finances nor her docs then and I wasn't going to let some quack get in my way- because thankfully here we have options, more options then most countries when dealing with stuff like this (and I am NOT saying things couldn't be better... I think we could learn a thing or two from some countries which have alot of stuff we consider to be Rx as nonRx- many asian countries allow you to buy estrogen in gas station quickie marts w/out any slips...). It still irks me however, the last thing we need are uneducated, arrogant bigots masquerading as medical professionals in an attempt to help further their political agendas of societal decay... do we really want people to think that its "best" to wait until 35+? I certainly hope not...

<universal healthcare soap box>
Luckily our system, as good/bad/etc it may be at times, has an easy availability of online medications w/out prescription requirements. Thats more than alot of girls in alot of countries can say, and not even in areas that far away from the US... Canada's customs is exceptionally "good" at keeping online prescriptions out of the country so getting hrt meds from online sources into Canada has been troublesome at times. The more options people have, the better it is- period. When the gov is the only game in town, there are going to be headaches, especially for something as unmainstream as transistioning... shoot look at how much trouble we can have merely at trying to do routine things at the DMV... now picture the same clowns in charge of our medical lives
</universal healthcare soap box>

[BeardedOne]

Grrr! :x

My guy's view on this was just eaten by the net. :cry:

May respond later.

[TrueBeauty TS]

I don't feel it is superficial so much as being responsible to the rest of us. In Thailand TS are expected to look like women for the most part. This is one reason why their acceptance is higher than ours. If all of our TS actually looked like women to a large extent, instead of this - turn 40, do nothing to transition, but start calling yourself a TS thing that happens, it would be a lot easier on all of us.




While I actually agree with many of your ideas on successful transitioning, this is still (?) a free country, people are allowed to make bad choices or even good choices, but based on their own time table and financial resources.

My guard goes up whenever there is a "Everyone should do it/be like me and this would be a great world."

I'll play devil's advocate with you - You could use your own argument against you. Wouldn't it be more responsible of all TS's not to be escorts or work in the porn & sex trade? Think of how much higher we would be accepted if all TS's went to college and had good, "respectable" careers instead of being drugged out, alcoholic, sex crazed, uneducated hookers.

In a perfect world, we would all be smart & beautiful (like Vicki & I :wink: ) but it's not, and we can't live other peoples' lives for them or make their choices for them, even if they are good choices.


.

[suckseed]

I happen to have seen TrueBeauty folks, and can testify that she is indeed beautiful. Talked to her also, and she's smart as well....but dayum she's private! I meant well, TB, promise!

[Vicki Richter]

That is why I made sure to say my "opinion" right in the topic header. Yes people can do whatever they want to do. However, there are more rational ways of progressing.

I don't think your analogy works all that well because there are GG's who do porn and there are guys who do. If anything, I feel porn actually is a controlling function over people's perceptions. This is a good thing. Guys are recognizing that TS women can look just as good and natural as GG's. This wouldn't have happened without porn.

Just the same, it would really move us forward a lot more if most of the attractive TS weren't hookers and sex workers. I can almost guarantee that some TS would be famous and married to someone famous in Hollywood if she was beautiful and not a sex worker. We need that here.

Anyway, it is my opinion, that girls in training would do well to follow my very good advice.

[whatsupwithat]

That is why I made sure to say my "opinion" right in the topic header. Yes people can do whatever they want to do. However, there are more rational ways of progressing.

I don't think your analogy works all that well because there are GG's who do porn and there are guys who do. If anything, I feel porn actually is a controlling function over people's perceptions. This is a good thing. Guys are recognizing that TS women can look just as good and natural as GG's. This wouldn't have happened without porn.

Just the same, it would really move us forward a lot more if most of the attractive TS weren't hookers and sex workers. I can almost guarantee that some TS would be famous and married to someone famous in Hollywood if she was beautiful and not a sex worker. We need that here.

Anyway, it is my opinion, that girls in training would do well to follow my very good advice.

Okay, sure, porn opens some people's eyes to their sexuality/desires. Good point. And it would move everyone forward if so many attractive TS weren't in porn and doing sex work. Another good point.

But if the penultimate goal of a girl outside of the sex work and the porn is to be married to someone famous in Hollywood, well, I would hope the girls in the community would try to aim a little higher with their goals in life. Scratch that...knowing famous people in Hollywood, I would hope they would aim A LOT higher.

Maybe you were just using it as an example...

[BrendaQG]

I don't feel it is superficial so much as being responsible to the rest of us. In Thailand TS are expected to look like women for the most part. This is one reason why their acceptance is higher than ours. If all of our TS actually looked like women to a large extent, instead of this - turn 40, do nothing to transition, but start calling yourself a TS thing that happens, it would be a lot easier on all of us.




While I actually agree with many of your ideas on successful transitioning, this is still (?) a free country, people are allowed to make bad choices or even good choices, but based on their own time table and financial resources.

My guard goes up whenever there is a "Everyone should do it/be like me and this would be a great world."

I'll play devil's advocate with you - You could use your own argument against you. Wouldn't it be more responsible of all TS's not to be escorts or work in the porn & sex trade? Think of how much higher we would be accepted if all TS's went to college and had good, "respectable" careers instead of being drugged out, alcoholic, sex crazed, uneducated hookers.

In a perfect world, we would all be smart & beautiful (like Vicki & I :wink: ) but it's not, and we can't live other peoples' lives for them or make their choices for them, even if they are good choices.


.

I sorry for going a bit OT but I just have to interject this.

I have been to college and grad school. I have looked for a job ANY job. Everything is good until they check the background then I'm screwed. Going to college does not mean you have money.... So far I have borrowed $80,000. Some of it in private loans with rates as high as 14% Financially that makes me worse off than allot of other people.

The fairy tale of graduating from college and living happily ever after is just as much a fantasy as it is in snow white!

In real life there are many many a young good looking transsexual who did graduate from college or university, had masters and even PhD's in their 20's. In spite of this they spent some amount of time doing adult work. At least until they could get their legit career off the ground. That's reality.

Another dose of reality is that people make snap judgments base on looks. The snap judgment that someone makes when looking at that truck driver is that they are a crackpot. Then they take that judgment to all transsexuals.

At least in England they have had serious mass media exposure to more than their share of transsexuals that don't look like that . In america that image is by far what dominates our TV screens and the collective conscious of the people.

[peggygee]

Great thread, alot of excellent points have been made. 8)

As a middle aged woman who transitioned fairly early, I have a concern
and a question.

My concern is that there appears to be a great deal of animosity, and
distrust between older transwomen and younger ones.

My question is how do we bridge that gap?

And a follow up to that question, is it in either groups interest to do so?

[BrendaQG]

I wish I knew.

I am nice when I meet such a person. Things are usually all good at first.

No matter what the older TS eventually tries to tell me what to do or how I should live. Gives me some crap about how I live my life. Then I have to tell them to go to hell.

Then there is the odd one who will call me a fag and a sissy. (I'm sure this has happened to others as well). :-(

[melissacarter]

I never said that.

I wasn't refering exclusively to you on that, apolgies if it came off like that.

There are people on this board that are so willing to throw the old hags under the bus. Admitedly, I don't want any intimate dealings with them but I do support thier right to be who they are and to live how they choose to live. In fact I kind of admire that courage. That thing that says 'fuck it, I may not pass and I may be ugly to most but this is who I am'.

For whatever reason they didn't transition at a young age. A lot of people will hold that against them as if they are less of a transsexual compared to a girl like yourself. I don't know thier story and just feel that none of us has the right to judge them for doing what they feel is right in thier heart for thier own lives.

I just really don't get how TS women (with the way that society looks upon you as a whole)can be so quite to descriminate against the next girl because her path to becoming a woman was different or because of how she looks.

It seems so based on outer and superficial reasons.

I don't feel it is superficial so much as being responsible to the rest of us. In Thailand TS are expected to look like women for the most part. This is one reason why their acceptance is higher than ours. If all of our TS actually looked like women to a large extent, instead of this - turn 40, do nothing to transition, but start calling yourself a TS thing that happens, it would be a lot easier on all of us.

I am not saying all TS women have to be stealth, but at least put in some effort besides makeup and a dress. That is a full time CD in my opinion. How does she not expect her coworkers to "talk about her"? That is to be expected. My opinion on how someone like this should transition is as follows:

While still dressing like a man:
- 1 year laser
- 1 year hormones
- Both ears pierced
- If you have short hair, grow it out.
- Please practice your voice. A deep voice on a TS isn't feminine and anybody can work on and improve this. It's annoying when girls don't even appear to try. Get a voice training tape they really work from the girls I have heard.

At this point you can start acting "mildly" and I stress mildly feminine. Your appearance will change as the facial hair goes, and hormones will have some affect on your skin.

If you have a good job like this person:
- Plan FFS with a GOOD doctor. If you have to borrow money do it. It is hugely worth it.
- Plan any body modifications
- See a doctor if you choose to
- Plan a name change

Basically, what you are doing is letting people build up slowly to your changing disposition and appearance. When you take that extra step, it won't be so shocking and appalling. The best thing would be to take a long vacation or brief leave of absence if your work allows for it. A lot of times employees can save up vacation one year and bridge it into the next. For example if you have 2 weeks of vacation, save it up for the last few weeks of December and then take your following year's vacation in January for 4-5 weeks off.

Go get your FFS and other surgeries during this leave. Also, because you have gotten all of your planning out of the way, have your name legally changed during this time as well.

Then, right before you go back to work, schedule a meeting with HR. Give them a heads up. Chances are they won't have any clue on how to deal with something like this. However, perhaps they could have some sensitivity training with folks before you return.

Regardless, when you go back, you will look different, feel different, and have a new name and hopefully an ID that reflects your appropriate gender. People will still talk, but they will likely say, "yeah I saw that coming" instead of "what a freak! Look at that freak!"

Obviously, you have to gauge all this by your company. If you work for a small company, they might fire you anyway. But a company like DHL is big enough to have some policies around this kind of thing.

Finally, expect it to be hard and not fun for awhile. However, if you go in looking as feminine as possible, things will be much easier for you and your coworkers. Transition responsibly.

Vicki, may I say that is good common sense. Take it from a 39 yr old TS in the midst of transition. I started my journey at 35, later than most.

And yet I am by no means the oldest. You would be surprised how many old people decide they have discovered their "true self" and attempt to switch genders. Yahoo groups are loaded with 50-year olds, even 60-year olds that have a sudden epiphany they are a woman inside. Most of this is reactionary to some mid-life crisis. I don't see how one can expect significant feminization to a body that has a 50-year male history. What I see a lot in these groups is married men dabbling in transgendered fantasy. They will never fully transition; they go on hormones, then off, on then off. They have no plan. That is mindless. You absolutely must plan every detail out and timing is key.

Vicki's right that it was lonely at first and I did face hardships. I've experienced some rough spots already: fired from my job (I didn't do the man on Monday, girl on Tuesday thing, I made gradual changes but it was a small company and once noticed they found reasons to dismiss me), being kicked out of my apartment, hooking to put food on the table not to mention a breast cancer scare. If you're interested the story is on my website.

Hormones, bodily changes, hair removal, and facial augmentation must be strategically timed. It should be a careful overlapping of changes. At the start, I distanced myself from my family and old circle of friends. I thought about it and realized that was best to build a foundation. Now I am well on my way and have been re-connecting with those I love. Most really don't care, much to my amazement. They are too consumed with themselves, a factor I hadn't considered.

[peggygee]

I sorry for going a bit OT but I just have to interject this.

I have been to college and grad school. I have looked for a job ANY job. Everything is good until they check the background then I'm screwed. Going to college does not mean you have money.... So far I have borrowed $80,000. Some of it in private loans with rates as high as 14% Financially that makes me worse off than allot of other people.

The fairy tale of graduating from college and living happily ever after is just as much a fantasy as it is in snow white!

In real life there are many many a young good looking transsexual who did graduate from college or university, had masters and even PhD's in their 20's. In spite of this they spent some amount of time doing adult work. At least until they could get their legit career off the ground. That's reality.

Another dose of reality is that people make snap judgments base on looks. The snap judgment that someone makes when looking at that truck driver is that they are a crackpot. Then they take that judgment to all transsexuals.

At least in England they have had serious mass media exposure to more than their share of transsexuals that don't look like that . In america that image is by far what dominates our TV screens and the collective conscious of the people.




BrendaQG Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:55 am

I wish I knew.

I am nice when I meet such a person. Things are usually all good at first.

No matter what the older TS eventually tries to tell me what to do or how I should live. Gives me some crap about how I live my life. Then I have to tell them to go to hell.

Then there is the odd one who will call me a fag and a sissy. (I'm sure this has happened to others as well).



I wonder if actually both points are inter-woven.

When anyone, irregardless of their gender status first sets out in the world
or leaves school, it can be very difficult for them, as they establish
themselves.

On your second point, I believe it's the nature of older people to share
their lifes experiences, and for younger people to tell older people to go
to hell, that they don't understand what the younger person is going through.

[Urian]

I am planning starting hormones next month of September and the plan from Vicky is very good for me, the more important thing is that we should be secure in our transition and we must give the correct image of our feminine self.

Year 0 is important.

Ooops, I have forgotten a photo of me:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5187/525/1600/Imagen%201.0.png

I don´t know if I am going to be very passable after one year of HRT but I should try.

[NadiaUSA]

I would just add that you might want to hold off on hormones until you have your electrolysis about finished.

In 4-6 months guys can have noticable little nipples through most mens shirts by taking hormones.

That is for electrollysis.
If you are doing lazer you may need hormones to help beat back the beard depending on the aggresiveness of your facial hair.

Also dress as a boy as long as possible. When you are in all boy clothes and get yelled at for using the mensroom constantly. Then try to pass as a woman.

Then "poof" you will look like me.

[whatsupwithat]

Great thread, alot of excellent points have been made. 8)

As a middle aged woman who transitioned fairly early, I have a concern
and a question.

My concern is that there appears to be a great deal of animosity, and
distrust between older transwomen and younger ones.

My question is how do we bridge that gap?

And a follow up to that question, is it in either groups interest to do so?

I think the only people that will bridge that gap are the younger one's who are smart enough to seek the wisdom of those that came before them.

And, yes, i think it is in the interest of both parties. Both can learn a lot from each other.

The other gap I think that truly needs to be bridged is the gap between the activists and the sex workers/porn stars. These two groups could benefit tremendously from interacting and sharing with each other...the trans movement would rocket forward. But both need to let go of the judgements they have of each other.

[hondarobot]

That is why I made sure to say my "opinion" right in the topic header. Yes people can do whatever they want to do. However, there are more rational ways of progressing.

I don't think your analogy works all that well because there are GG's who do porn and there are guys who do. If anything, I feel porn actually is a controlling function over people's perceptions. This is a good thing. Guys are recognizing that TS women can look just as good and natural as GG's. This wouldn't have happened without porn.

Just the same, it would really move us forward a lot more if most of the attractive TS weren't hookers and sex workers. I can almost guarantee that some TS would be famous and married to someone famous in Hollywood if she was beautiful and not a sex worker. We need that here.

Anyway, it is my opinion, that girls in training would do well to follow my very good advice.

Okay, sure, porn opens some people's eyes to their sexuality/desires. Good point. And it would move everyone forward if so many attractive TS weren't in porn and doing sex work. Another good point.

But if the penultimate goal of a girl outside of the sex work and the porn is to be married to someone famous in Hollywood, well, I would hope the girls in the community would try to aim a little higher with their goals in life. Scratch that...knowing famous people in Hollywood, I would hope they would aim A LOT higher.

Maybe you were just using it as an example...

I don't see how a girl having a goal of marrying someone famous in Hollywood would be all that bad. She could have a very fun life.

Admittedly, most "Hollywood people" I've known have seemed kinda screwy. They certainly make more money then I do, so I can't fault them for that.

[ducktales]

http://www.wvrotary.org/photogallery/Misc/100_0748.JPG


is it too late for me to start?

[whatsupwithat]

I don't see how a girl having a goal of marrying someone famous in Hollywood would be all that bad. She could have a very fun life.


Yes, she could. That wasn't my point.

[NadiaUSA]

Great thread, alot of excellent points have been made. 8)

As a middle aged woman who transitioned fairly early, I have a concern
and a question.

My concern is that there appears to be a great deal of animosity, and
distrust between older transwomen and younger ones.

My question is how do we bridge that gap?

And a follow up to that question, is it in either groups interest to do so?

I think the only people that will bridge that gap are the younger one's who are smart enough to seek the wisdom of those that came before them.

And, yes, i think it is in the interest of both parties. Both can learn a lot from each other.

The other gap I think that truly needs to be bridged is the gap between the activists and the sex workers/porn stars. These two groups could benefit tremendously from interacting and sharing with each other...the trans movement would rocket forward. But both need to let go of the judgements they have of each other.

There is so much rivalry in the community. I was just reading the heated disscusion in regards to the Wikipedia entry for shemale. The post op medical activist crowd will not allow a shemale word to be used because they shun the sex workers and call them a derogitory segment of the TS catagory. They say shemale is a slur. if you type in shemale in wiki you are redirected to transwoman medical page.

See the disscussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Transwoman/Shemale/Archive_3

Is this sensorship or infighting?

I will repost in its own thread please answer there.

[hondarobot]

http://www.wvrotary.org/photogallery/Misc/100_0748.JPG


is it too late for me to start?

Heh. You're really old. I'm just saying.

Give me your money before you die, then I can move to Hollywood.

:wink:

[ducktales]

http://www.wvrotary.org/photogallery/Misc/100_0748.JPG


is it too late for me to start?

Heh. You're really old. I'm just saying.

Give me your money before you die, then I can move to Hollywood.

:wink:

im on the public computer in the home

http://www.indigomanor.com/


anyone want to come visit me

[hondarobot]

http://www.wvrotary.org/photogallery/Misc/100_0748.JPG


is it too late for me to start?

Heh. You're really old. I'm just saying.

Give me your money before you die, then I can move to Hollywood.

:wink:

im on the public computer in the home

http://www.indigomanor.com/


anyone want to come visit me

I don't think that's a very good idea, personally. I do accept monetary donations of cash, or gold.

[BrendaQG]

I sorry for going a bit OT but I just have to interject this.

I have been to college and grad school. I have looked for a job ANY job. Everything is good until they check the background then I'm screwed. Going to college does not mean you have money.... So far I have borrowed $80,000. Some of it in private loans with rates as high as 14% Financially that makes me worse off than allot of other people.

The fairy tale of graduating from college and living happily ever after is just as much a fantasy as it is in snow white!

In real life there are many many a young good looking transsexual who did graduate from college or university, had masters and even PhD's in their 20's. In spite of this they spent some amount of time doing adult work. At least until they could get their legit career off the ground. That's reality.

Another dose of reality is that people make snap judgments base on looks. The snap judgment that someone makes when looking at that truck driver is that they are a crackpot. Then they take that judgment to all transsexuals.

At least in England they have had serious mass media exposure to more than their share of transsexuals that don't look like that . In america that image is by far what dominates our TV screens and the collective conscious of the people.




BrendaQG Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:55 am

I wish I knew.

I am nice when I meet such a person. Things are usually all good at first.

No matter what the older TS eventually tries to tell me what to do or how I should live. Gives me some crap about how I live my life. Then I have to tell them to go to hell.

Then there is the odd one who will call me a fag and a sissy. (I'm sure this has happened to others as well).



I wonder if actually both points are inter-woven.

When anyone, irregardless of their gender status first sets out in the world
or leaves school, it can be very difficult for them, as they establish
themselves.

On your second point, I believe it's the nature of older people to share
their lifes experiences, and for younger people to tell older people to go
to hell, that they don't understand what the younger person is going through.

Peggy

On the first thing you are right. I just wanted to point out that college does not automatically make that initial struggle easier.

For the second thing...

How does a 44 yo bodybuilding ex fireman know what I have been through?

That describes one of the older TS's who has called me a sissy. Ironic since they are also wearing a dress, so to speak. I guess everything is relative eh. Compared to someone like that perhaps I am a sisisy. :-? :-/



I think the only people that will bridge that gap are the younger one's who are smart enough to seek the wisdom of those that came before them.

And, yes, i think it is in the interest of both parties. Both can learn a lot from each other.

The other gap I think that truly needs to be bridged is the gap between the activists and the sex workers/porn stars. These two groups could benefit tremendously from interacting and sharing with each other...the trans movement would rocket forward. But both need to let go of the judgements they have of each other.

True true. However you have to realize there is a real difference between a transsexual who is 40 now and has been living as a woman since say 15-20 and a transsexual who is 40 years old and has been living as a woman for a shorter time than me.

The ones in the first group have my almost automatic respect and I do listen to them.

On the other hand I will admit that someone who is older than I and has only been living as a woman for a few years would have little to teach me. If anything I came before them. The same can be said of many of the people here. When it comes to life in general the "old hags" would know more. Life as a MTF transsexual is different. For that the 40 yo recent transitioner should defer to the 25 yo who transitioned 10 years ago.

Just my POV.

[BrendaQG]

I think it would be a good idea to put this thread is perspective.

How not to transition....

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/gaynor_ts_trucker_179.jpg

I really don't think this person would have any meaningful advice for anyone here about life as a TS woman. When it comes to this life they are a newborn.

[Vicki Richter]

That is why I made sure to say my "opinion" right in the topic header. Yes people can do whatever they want to do. However, there are more rational ways of progressing.

I don't think your analogy works all that well because there are GG's who do porn and there are guys who do. If anything, I feel porn actually is a controlling function over people's perceptions. This is a good thing. Guys are recognizing that TS women can look just as good and natural as GG's. This wouldn't have happened without porn.

Just the same, it would really move us forward a lot more if most of the attractive TS weren't hookers and sex workers. I can almost guarantee that some TS would be famous and married to someone famous in Hollywood if she was beautiful and not a sex worker. We need that here.

Anyway, it is my opinion, that girls in training would do well to follow my very good advice.

Okay, sure, porn opens some people's eyes to their sexuality/desires. Good point. And it would move everyone forward if so many attractive TS weren't in porn and doing sex work. Another good point.

But if the penultimate goal of a girl outside of the sex work and the porn is to be married to someone famous in Hollywood, well, I would hope the girls in the community would try to aim a little higher with their goals in life. Scratch that...knowing famous people in Hollywood, I would hope they would aim A LOT higher.

Maybe you were just using it as an example...

No. I don't care about celebrity. However, that is the kind of press we, as transsexuals, need for acceptance. Whether we like it or not, Hollywood is America's royalty. Having someone who millions admire marry a TS woman, particularly a beautiful TS woman, would change a lot of perceptions.

[hondarobot]

That is why I made sure to say my "opinion" right in the topic header. Yes people can do whatever they want to do. However, there are more rational ways of progressing.

I don't think your analogy works all that well because there are GG's who do porn and there are guys who do. If anything, I feel porn actually is a controlling function over people's perceptions. This is a good thing. Guys are recognizing that TS women can look just as good and natural as GG's. This wouldn't have happened without porn.

Just the same, it would really move us forward a lot more if most of the attractive TS weren't hookers and sex workers. I can almost guarantee that some TS would be famous and married to someone famous in Hollywood if she was beautiful and not a sex worker. We need that here.

Anyway, it is my opinion, that girls in training would do well to follow my very good advice.

Okay, sure, porn opens some people's eyes to their sexuality/desires. Good point. And it would move everyone forward if so many attractive TS weren't in porn and doing sex work. Another good point.

But if the penultimate goal of a girl outside of the sex work and the porn is to be married to someone famous in Hollywood, well, I would hope the girls in the community would try to aim a little higher with their goals in life. Scratch that...knowing famous people in Hollywood, I would hope they would aim A LOT higher.

Maybe you were just using it as an example...

No. I don't care about celebrity. However, that is the kind of press we, as transsexuals, need for acceptance. Whether we like it or not, Hollywood is America's royalty. Having someone who millions admire marry a TS woman, particularly a beautiful TS woman, would change a lot of perceptions.

Oh, whatever. I still think that old guy should give me some gold.

Good night.

[SarahG]

Oh, whatever. I still think that old guy should give me some gold.

Good night.

Why, what are you willing to do to get it?

[TrueBeauty TS]

However, that is the kind of press we, as transsexuals, need for acceptance. Whether we like it or not, Hollywood is America's royalty. Having someone who millions admire marry a TS woman, particularly a beautiful TS woman, would change a lot of perceptions.


I do know of a couple like that. He has some fame & money and he is married to a beautiful post-op, but they are also stealth about it. So it does happen, but until people are willing to come "out" about it, it does no good.



.

[youcancallmeclaire]

That is why I made sure to say my "opinion" right in the topic header. Yes people can do whatever they want to do. However, there are more rational ways of progressing.

I don't think your analogy works all that well because there are GG's who do porn and there are guys who do. If anything, I feel porn actually is a controlling function over people's perceptions. This is a good thing. Guys are recognizing that TS women can look just as good and natural as GG's. This wouldn't have happened without porn.

Just the same, it would really move us forward a lot more if most of the attractive TS weren't hookers and sex workers. I can almost guarantee that some TS would be famous and married to someone famous in Hollywood if she was beautiful and not a sex worker. We need that here.

Anyway, it is my opinion, that girls in training would do well to follow my very good advice.

This is spot on. I always got flamed for suggesting the reason for our discrimination was all the media exposure that ugly cd-looking, clown-makeup trannies get. But somehow I don't think this is the type of forum who would be all up in arms over those kinds of comments.

This must be like my 300th post by now... Crazy.

[RangeHova]

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/gaynor_ts_trucker_179.jpg



If this person is happy and feels whole as a person, I don't feel anyone has the right to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Who is it wrong for? You?

I think a part of it is just that. Girls who feel that they are above these 'hags' and don't want society to lump them into the same category. God forbid that the 'guy in dress' who mentall is just as transexual as the girl who transitioned at 14 and passes well be both seen as TS. I have heard many say that they should not even be labeld with the same terminology because of how they look. It is like they remind or slidify the the outside world's prejudgeing nature that that gorgeous girl really is a man.

I have seen far too many lines drawn between transwomen based on who transitioned when, tops vs bottoms, bisexual vs heterosexuals, those that live fulltime vs part timers, those that have had work done, those that do drag, those that escort or do porn, those that have had SRS, those that stunt... When in reality if you were born male but you genuine feel that you are a female then you, no matter how you look,dress or act are a transsexual.

I'm not saying that you have to befriend every trans girl in dress. I know that many girls that I know are careful not to introduce girls too deep in thier lives that don't pass because they end up getting them read in by association. Even with myself, I don't date girls that don't pass. So I get why some girls are standoffish to those girls that look 'bad' or unfeminine. It is not about taking them in and being BFFs or letting them teach you or run your life, just general respect for them having the courage to be who they feel they are. Just basic human respect.

I just can't allow myself to down them or to demean them and to tell them that they are wrong for living life how they feel they need to live thier live. I can't support them being fired for how they look, especially in a job like driving a truck.

I personaly think it is a shame that we, on this board of all places, are so quick to down a girl who may not pass. Some of those people are fine with that and have accepted that. If they can deal with it so be it. Society as a whole would be so qiuck to down most everyone here for either being transgendered or admirering those that are and here we are doing that same thing to others for not fitting a certain criteria.

So if a person waits until they are a ceratain older age they should just suffer? Who is to say what the cut off age should be? What about young girls that don't quite pass so well? Do they lose the right to live how they choose?

I'm with TrueBeauty TS when she said;

"My guard goes up whenever there is a 'Everyone should do it/be like me and this would be a great world.' "

and

"In a perfect world, we would all be smart & beautiful (like Vicki & I ) but it's not, and we can't live other peoples' lives for them or make their choices for them, even if they are good choices."

[Felicia Katt]

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/gaynor_ts_trucker_179.jpg



If this person is happy and feels whole as a person, I don't feel anyone has the right to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Who is it wrong for? You?

I think a part of it is just that. Girls who feel that they are above these 'hags' and don't want society to lump them into the same category. God forbid that the 'guy in dress' who mentall is just as transexual as the girl who transitioned at 14 and passes well be both seen as TS. I have heard many say that they should not even be labeld with the same terminology because of how they look. It is like they remind or slidify the the outside world's prejudgeing nature that that gorgeous girl really is a man.

I have seen far too many lines drawn between transwomen based on who transitioned when, tops vs bottoms, bisexual vs heterosexuals, those that live fulltime vs part timers, those that have had work done, those that do drag, those that escort or do porn, those that have had SRS, those that stunt... When in reality if you were born male but you genuine feel that you are a female then you, no matter how you look,dress or act are a transsexual.

I'm not saying that you have to befriend every trans girl in dress. I know that many girls that I know are careful not to introduce girls too deep in thier lives that don't pass because they end up getting them read in by association. Even with myself, I don't date girls that don't pass. So I get why some girls are standoffish to those girls that look 'bad' or unfeminine. It is not about taking them in and being BFFs or letting them teach you or run your life, just general respect for them having the courage to be who they feel they are. Just basic human respect.

I just can't allow myself to down them or to demean them and to tell them that they are wrong for living life how they feel they need to live thier live. I can't support them being fired for how they look, especially in a job like driving a truck.

I personaly think it is a shame that we, on this board of all places, are so quick to down a girl who may not pass. Some of those people are fine with that and have accepted that. If they can deal with it so be it. Society as a whole would be so qiuck to down most everyone here for either being transgendered or admirering those that are and here we are doing that same thing to others for not fitting a certain criteria.

So if a person waits until they are a ceratain older age they should just suffer? Who is to say what the cut off age should be? What about young girls that don't quite pass so well? Do they lose the right to live how they choose?

I'm with TrueBeauty TS when she said;

"My guard goes up whenever there is a 'Everyone should do it/be like me and this would be a great world.' "

and

"In a perfect world, we would all be smart & beautiful (like Vicki & I ) but it's not, and we can't live other peoples' lives for them or make their choices for them, even if they are good choices." :claps

[SarahG]

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/gaynor_ts_trucker_179.jpg



If this person is happy and feels whole as a person, I don't feel anyone has the right to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Who is it wrong for? You?

I think a part of it is just that. Girls who feel that they are above these 'hags' and don't want society to lump them into the same category. God forbid that the 'guy in dress' who mentall is just as transexual as the girl who transitioned at 14 and passes well be both seen as TS. I have heard many say that they should not even be labeld with the same terminology because of how they look. It is like they remind or slidify the the outside world's prejudgeing nature that that gorgeous girl really is a man.

I have seen far too many lines drawn between transwomen based on who transitioned when, tops vs bottoms, bisexual vs heterosexuals, those that live fulltime vs part timers, those that have had work done, those that do drag, those that escort or do porn, those that have had SRS, those that stunt... When in reality if you were born male but you genuine feel that you are a female then you, no matter how you look,dress or act are a transsexual.

I'm not saying that you have to befriend every trans girl in dress. I know that many girls that I know are careful not to introduce girls too deep in thier lives that don't pass because they end up getting them read in by association. Even with myself, I don't date girls that don't pass. So I get why some girls are standoffish to those girls that look 'bad' or unfeminine. It is not about taking them in and being BFFs or letting them teach you or run your life, just general respect for them having the courage to be who they feel they are. Just basic human respect.

I just can't allow myself to down them or to demean them and to tell them that they are wrong for living life how they feel they need to live thier live. I can't support them being fired for how they look, especially in a job like driving a truck.

I personaly think it is a shame that we, on this board of all places, are so quick to down a girl who may not pass. Some of those people are fine with that and have accepted that. If they can deal with it so be it. Society as a whole would be so qiuck to down most everyone here for either being transgendered or admirering those that are and here we are doing that same thing to others for not fitting a certain criteria.

So if a person waits until they are a ceratain older age they should just suffer? Who is to say what the cut off age should be? What about young girls that don't quite pass so well? Do they lose the right to live how they choose?

I'm with TrueBeauty TS when she said;

"My guard goes up whenever there is a 'Everyone should do it/be like me and this would be a great world.' "

and

"In a perfect world, we would all be smart & beautiful (like Vicki & I ) but it's not, and we can't live other peoples' lives for them or make their choices for them, even if they are good choices."

Part of the issue, I suspect, is a division in terms of personal philosophies... there are realists and then there are the idealists.

Sure, it would be nice if it was as simple as what one's mental state of existance is. It would be nice if everyone could easily start at a young age, it would be nice if discrimination wasn't as wide spread, legal, and accepted as it is.

But the world does not- at this point in time- work that way, not yet anyway. With this taken into consideration, people need to remember beyond the idealism, social-political theories, and so on that certain things have ramifications on a microscopic personal and macroscopic societal level. As things are now- in most places- if you go and transistion late, go fulltime on top of that without doing certain things ahead of time in the process- you're going to get flak... what that flak entiles IMO is going to varry from person to person, time & place, etc- but it is unrealistic to just go fulltime over night without doing anything and expect to never encounter any discrimination, any insults, any odd looks, etc.

Looks matter because perception matters. Any minority group- no matter WHAT the demographic is, has a quality of life (legally, politically and in welfare) which is dependent upon the will- the consciousness- of the general public/the majority/etc. The black civil rights movement would never have achieved what it did, when it did without segments of the majority changing their mindsets on the issue (in America this is especially accredited to the moderate Jewish groups/segments of the general population). Before that- women's suffrage was not feasible without the men- the ones politically in control- doing what needed to be done as figures in the majority to make it happen (in the end it really doesn't matter how many old ladies take hatchets to saloons if they're ignored, stigmatized, killed, shipped away or otherwise dismissed).

The more normal the trans community is perceived to be by the majority to be, the easier it would be for acceptance, reforms, aid and other things that would make the real world more tolerable to the rest. Stereotypes regarding trans people -regardless of the validity of such stereotypes- have a major impact on the way people see us.

There have been times and places where, homosexual groups- as a case study in terms of such issues, merely took the idealistic social-political theory stances, pleading with the general public for acceptance, tolerance (note the two are different) and it most certainly did not work out in their favor in certain parts of Europe between the two world wars...

[BrendaQG]

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/gaynor_ts_trucker_179.jpg



If this person is happy and feels whole as a person, I don't feel anyone has the right to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. Who is it wrong for? You?

I think a part of it is just that. Girls who feel that they are above these 'hags' and don't want society to lump them into the same category. God forbid that the 'guy in dress' who mentall is just as transexual as the girl who transitioned at 14 and passes well be both seen as TS. I have heard many say that they should not even be labeld with the same terminology because of how they look. It is like they remind or slidify the the outside world's prejudgeing nature that that gorgeous girl really is a man.

I have seen far too many lines drawn between transwomen based on who transitioned when, tops vs bottoms, bisexual vs heterosexuals, those that live fulltime vs part timers, those that have had work done, those that do drag, those that escort or do porn, those that have had SRS, those that stunt... When in reality if you were born male but you genuine feel that you are a female then you, no matter how you look,dress or act are a transsexual.

I'm not saying that you have to befriend every trans girl in dress. I know that many girls that I know are careful not to introduce girls too deep in thier lives that don't pass because they end up getting them read in by association. Even with myself, I don't date girls that don't pass. So I get why some girls are standoffish to those girls that look 'bad' or unfeminine. It is not about taking them in and being BFFs or letting them teach you or run your life, just general respect for them having the courage to be who they feel they are. Just basic human respect.

I just can't allow myself to down them or to demean them and to tell them that they are wrong for living life how they feel they need to live thier live. I can't support them being fired for how they look, especially in a job like driving a truck.

I personaly think it is a shame that we, on this board of all places, are so quick to down a girl who may not pass. Some of those people are fine with that and have accepted that. If they can deal with it so be it. Society as a whole would be so qiuck to down most everyone here for either being transgendered or admirering those that are and here we are doing that same thing to others for not fitting a certain criteria.

So if a person waits until they are a ceratain older age they should just suffer? Who is to say what the cut off age should be? What about young girls that don't quite pass so well? Do they lose the right to live how they choose?

I'm with TrueBeauty TS when she said;

"My guard goes up whenever there is a 'Everyone should do it/be like me and this would be a great world.' "

and

"In a perfect world, we would all be smart & beautiful (like Vicki & I ) but it's not, and we can't live other peoples' lives for them or make their choices for them, even if they are good choices." :claps

@RangeHova

:x

WHERE THE HELL DID I SAY ANYTHING LIKE THIS PERSONS TRANSITION IS "WRONG"!? Or implied as you infered that I do that I am "above" anyone. Yeesh I eiher get one person accusing me of "ghettoizing" myself or I get this crapola.

:-|

I have said that this person could have nothing to teach me about life as a transsexual. I have said that this person should not be surprised that they were discriminated against due to how they look.

I have never said that she is less transsexual than somoen who passes and transitioned young. I have said that her advice on how to live as a transsexual would be far less valueable than the advice of a person who is her same age but has been living as a TS woman for a long time. Understand.

IF YOU MUST BREAK ME DOWN LIKE THAT DO IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS. :x

[HighRise818]

Vicki for the win!