NEWS: Scottsdale bar sued by transgendered patron

[LG]

Discrimination surprised bar patron
Nightclub owner had singled out her transgender friends, she says

Richard Ruelas
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 20, 2007 12:00 AM

Michele de LaFreniere, the transgender woman who filed a complaint against a Scottsdale nightclub that refused her admittance, said she is used to being stared at but is not used to discrimination.

"Growing up as a White male, I never knew discrimination," de LaFreniere said Thursday at a news conference.

The 52-year-old, who started outwardly identifying as a female in June 2004, filed a civil rights complaint with the state Attorney General's Office against Anderson's Fifth Estate.

The owner of the nightclub, Tom Anderson, said he is scheduled to meet with state investigators Aug. 7.

De LaFreniere, a tall blonde with a square jaw, wore a bright top with a plunging neckline to meet with reporters at the headquarters of Equality Arizona, a Phoenix organization that fights for gay rights.

De LaFreniere said she routinely danced the night away to '80s music at Anderson's Fifth Estate, both as a man and as a woman, with no incident. Trouble started in September, when she started bringing five or six friends "in different parts of transition."

One evening, she said, one of her friends asked the bouncer which bathroom to use and he said to use whichever one made the friend comfortable.

The friend chose the women's room, but found the toilet too gross.

"So, she stood up," de LaFreniere said, "and there was a complaint."

Other friends used the men's room, but a male patron took a picture using a cellphone camera, she said.

Weeks later, Anderson met de LaFreniere at the door and told her he didn't want the business of "her and her kind."

"I don't mind being told that I can't come in," she said.

"But to be told that he didn't want 'our kind' there . . . not because I've done anything wrong but because of who we are."

Anderson said by phone Wednesday that he only ordered de LaFreniere and her friends out, not an entire class of people.

"I don't know who's transgender or transsexual or who is just dressing up that way for kicks," he said. Patrons, he said, have supported his position.

Sam Holdren, field organizer for Equality Arizona, said Anderson's and other businesses should be more progressive. "Allow people to use the bathroom of the gender you identify with."

De LaFreniere said she understands her appearance causes a stir.

"Very few of you have ever met a person like me . . . but there's more to this than just a bathroom issue."

De LaFreniere, who grew up in New York and has two children, said she's fighting, in part, to bring awareness to what she said was the growing transgender community.

"The issue is discrimination," she said, "not whether I'm a freak or a deviant."

source: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0720anderson0720.html
see also: http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0719andersons0719.html

[ducktales]

if the owner doesn't want them there, then they shouldn't fucking be there.

[LG]

if the owner doesn't want them there, then they shouldn't fucking be there.

While it's true that the management reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I think, that the issue is far more complicated than that. The question is "Why would they refuse to admit transgendered people in general?".

From the Arizona Republic article that I posted a link to:


Anderson denies that he discriminated against the transgender patrons but said he had to take a stand late last year because female patrons were "freaking out" and threatening to take their business elsewhere.

"It looked like a man trying to get the ladies drink special," Anderson said of the cross-dressing patrons.

It did not work to have the cross-dressing patrons use the men's room either, since some of the men chastised them and they were at risk of getting beat up, Anderson said.

Chuck Kelhoffer, Anderson's attorney, said the disruption "was starting to have an impact on business."

In his response to the Attorney General's Office, Kelhoffer said the complaint is an attempt by deLaFreniere to gain publicity for herself and her cause.

A third, TG or unisex, restroom (or even a couple of stalls) could solve the problem of course, but it would be costly for the bar owner to put in and would use up much needed space. In the end, it is an issue of acceptance. Transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the management) at this particular bar.

The management of any bar is entitled to refuse service to any specific person for almost any reason, but here they are refusing to admit not just one person, it seems, but a whole group, simply because it seems like too much of a hassle to them to ensure that everyone can be provided with facilities that are clean, safe and private.

I'm not saying that the bar owner is knowingly discriminating against transgendered people or that he is a bigot. But in his attempt to ensure the smooth running of his operation he has left out a whole community of people. And yes, that is discrimination in my book.

[peggygee]

Arizona Non-Discrimination Law

Gender identity protected? No

Arizona does not have a state law explicitly prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity or disability.

Sexual orientation protected? No

Arizona does not have a law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Arizona Hate Crimes Law
State law covers hate crimes based on sexual orientation but not gender identity.

Arizona Birth Certificate Law: Gender Identity Issues
Arizona will issue new birth certificates to post-operative transsexuals.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Arizona&CONTENTID=21142&TEMPLATE=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=67

[marissaazts]

i'll try to be as tactfull as i can here

this is arizona when you go to a str8 club and you dont pass she is lucky she dident get hurt, i am only guessing here but i know the "tg group" she is in and lots of them are much older and wont blend in, i am not saying this is right, but it is a fact of life heck most 50yr olds wont fit in at that club let alone a trans person, and management does have the right to say no to anyone

http://www.a5e.net/index.html

[peggygee]

if the owner doesn't want them there, then they shouldn't fucking be there.

While it's true that the management reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I think, that the issue is far more complicated than that. The question is "Why would they refuse to admit transgendered people in general?".

From the Arizona Republic article that I posted a link to:


Anderson denies that he discriminated against the transgender patrons but said he had to take a stand late last year because female patrons were "freaking out" and threatening to take their business elsewhere.

"It looked like a man trying to get the ladies drink special," Anderson said of the cross-dressing patrons.

It did not work to have the cross-dressing patrons use the men's room either, since some of the men chastised them and they were at risk of getting beat up, Anderson said.

Chuck Kelhoffer, Anderson's attorney, said the disruption "was starting to have an impact on business."

In his response to the Attorney General's Office, Kelhoffer said the complaint is an attempt by deLaFreniere to gain publicity for herself and her cause.

A third, TG or unisex, restroom (or even a couple of stalls) could solve the problem of course, but it would be costly for the bar owner to put in and would use up much needed space. In the end, it is an issue of acceptance. Transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the management) at this particular bar.

The management of any bar is entitled to refuse service to any specific person for almost any reason, but here they are refusing to admit not just one person, it seems, but a whole group, simply because it seems like too much of a hassle to them to ensure that everyone can be provided with facilities that are clean, safe and private.

I'm not saying that the bar owner is knowingly discriminating against transgendered people or that he is a bigot. But in his attempt to ensure the smooth running of his operation he has left out a whole community of people. And yes, that is discrimination in my book.

For the most part I agree with your statement above. However I beg to
differ with this;




Transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the management) at this particular bar.



I would amend that statement to some transgendered people are
seen as neither male nor female by some members of society, and
are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the
management) at this particular bar[/b].


And while admittedly it may be a semantical difference, I would submit
that there are many transgendered individuals who do not have
significant problems in assimilating in society, and that there are indeed
members of society who embrace us wholeheartedly in our adopted
genders.

[LG]

Arizona Non-Discrimination Law

Gender identity protected? No

Arizona does not have a state law explicitly prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity or disability.

Sexual orientation protected? No

Arizona does not have a law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Arizona Hate Crimes Law
State law covers hate crimes based on sexual orientation but not gender identity.

Arizona Birth Certificate Law: Gender Identity Issues
Arizona will issue new birth certificates to post-operative transsexuals.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Arizona&CONTENTID=21142&TEMPLATE=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=67

Useful info, peggy. Sad to see that AZ has no anti-discrimination laws.

Interestingly, the bar owner's lawyer cited a Utah case in which a judge decreed that:


"many women would be upset, embarrassed and even concerned for their safety if a man used a public restroom designated exclusively for women. Concerns about privacy, safety and propriety are the reason that gender-specific restrooms are universally accepted in our society."

The Utah court went on to say that, taken to its extreme, "any male employee could dress as a woman, appear and act as a woman, and use the women's restrooms, showers and locker rooms."

What is sad is that if Anderson's response to the Arizona Attorney General is accepted, then, from what I can understand, MTF transgended people will be classified as men.

How do you see the case developing? It looks like it might set a precedent that may set TG rights some way back in Arizona.

BTW: Just saw your latest post. Will respond to that too.

[peggygee]

Useful info, peggy. Sad to see that AZ has no anti-discrimination laws.



Anti-discrimination, no, hate crime protection, yes:

Arizona Hate Crimes Law
State law covers hate crimes based on sexual orientation but not gender identity.

[LG]

i'll try to be as tactfull as i can here

this is arizona when you go to a str8 club and you dont pass she is lucky she dident get hurt, i am only guessing here but i know the "tg group" she is in and lots of them are much older and wont blend in, i am not saying this is right, but it is a fact of life heck most 50yr olds wont fit in at that club let alone a trans person, and management does have the right to say no to anyone

http://www.a5e.net/index.html

Thanks for the link.

And, yes, from what I saw she's in her early 50s, has two kids and may well not be on hormones so I'm guessing that she's not what one would term "passable". And I'm sure, looking at the photos on the club's website, that most 50 year olds would stick out like a sore thumb, let alone TGs. I agree with you on all that, and I'm sure you've seen it for yourself.

But it is a shame to say that "she is lucky she didn't get hurt" because, I think you'll agree, nobody should have to fear for their safety just because they look or act different. And, even though I agree that management always has a right to refuse admission to anyone, in this case we're not just talking about a single person but a group of people.


I would amend that statement to some transgendered people are seen as neither male nor female by some members of society, and are accepted neither by the male nor the female clientele (nor by the
management) at this particular bar.

And while admittedly it may be a semantical difference, I would submit
that there are many transgendered individuals who do not have
significant problems in assimilating in society, and that there are indeed
members of society who embrace us wholeheartedly in our adopted
genders.

I won't disagree with the second part there peggygee. Yes, there are some TG individuals who have been accepted. Yes, there are people willing to accept TGs (many of these people are on boards such as this). But on your first point, we're coming back to the age-old question of "passability" I guess. Some TGs and even TSs, especially those who transitioned late in life, are just not "passable".

In addition,I would suggest that "passing" does not mean you are accepted. There are many transwomen who not only pass but can turn heads and elicit wolf-whistles from men, but would these men accept them if they knew that these girls were born with male genitalia? And would others?

[marissaazts]

But it is a shame to say that "she is lucky she didn't get hurt" because, I think you'll agree, nobody should have to fear for their safety just because they look or act different. And, even though I agree that management always has a right to refuse admission to anyone, in this case we're not just talking about a single person but a group of people.

it is a shame to say but in arizona bashing isnt that uncommon, esp. when a bunch of young drunk people are arround

while it isnt right sometimes common sense should win out, not everyone fits in everywhere that is life.

as for the bathroom issue i will say im uncomfortable in the ladies room not because i have ever been clocked but because women talk in the the restroom and tobe honnest it freaks me out, i have never been said hello to so many times in my life, when i used a mens room in the past there was never anyone speaking just do the deed and leave in a ladies room its all chitchat and i just wanna get the hell out lol i just havent evolved that far yet



especially those who transitioned late in life, are just not "passable". just because u transition later in life doesnt mean u cant pass, hell i see lots of old gg women who look more like men than most men remember i live in arizona home of the neardeads

[peggygee]

I was in Arizona a few years back and I was in a mixed club, and there
were a number of transwomen in 'cowgirl' attire.

I've been alot of places in my life, but that sight will be forever burned into
the hard drive of my mind.

:shock:

[LG]

especially those who transitioned late in life, are just not "passable". just because u transition later in life doesnt mean u cant pass, hell i see lots of old gg women who look more like men than most men remember i live in arizona home of the neardeads

Sounds like you should move out of Arizona. :lol:

But seriously, my statement was a sweeping generalization. I realise there are plenty of late transitioners who are more feminine and attractive than most genetic women- I have even see a few pictures of girls who are still only part time or who only took the decision in earnest in their 30s after being married and even having a child, and these girls are not only unclockable but simply gorgeous. But in general, I think, the younger a girl starts taking hormones and medication the more capable she will be of passing.


when i used a mens room in the past there was never anyone speaking just do the deed and leave in a ladies room its all chitchat and i just wanna get the hell out lol i just havent evolved that far yet

:D Now all I need is someone to explain why women go to restrooms in packs. Is it safety in numbers (safety from what?)? Or do they just need to gossip while they're going to the bathroom (possibly about the men they are with)?

[Jericho]

:D Now all I need is someone to explain why women go to restrooms in packs. Is it safety in numbers (safety from what?)? Or do they just need to gossip while they're going to the bathroom (possibly about the men they are with)?


Some questions shouldn't be asked. We're not ready for the answers! ;-)

[marissaazts]

Sounds like you should move out of Arizona. Laughing

naw its home but a summer home somewhere cooler would be nice
beside the cost of living is good and there is so much to do if ya can avoid the neardeads, not ot mention im on the conservative side myself, i would not do well in some of the liberal bastions

[peggygee]

when i used a mens room in the past there was never anyone speaking just do the deed and leave in a ladies room its all chitchat and i just wanna get the hell out lol i just havent evolved that far yet

:D Now all I need is someone to explain why women go to restrooms in packs. Is it safety in numbers (safety from what?)? Or do they just need to gossip while they're going to the bathroom (possibly about the men they are with)?


The mystery is revealed in the 'bathroom rant'. :wink: (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=15817&start=0)

[tsntx]

1. why did the author of the article feel the need to describe her as a "tall blonde w/ a square jaw" ?

2. not exactly the same topic but i didnt want to make a new thread but thought id ask what everyones opinion of this next situation is

last night at the resturant 3 ts women came in late 20's mid 30s and late 30's ... 100% passable they werent but apparently that was just my eye and not the rest of the places... anyway my manager came up to me and said that some guy had complained that there were 3 women in the mens bathroom and i looked to the table where they had been sitting and said "well that would be b/c they werent women" and he was like "ooooohhhh" and he let it go. nothing was said to the women and it wasnt even conversation in the resturant amongst staff or patrons... so my question is... even tho these werent fully transitiioned ts women they were still representing themselves as women and like i said they also passed enough to go unnoticed .... so why did they use the mens restroom? was it to get noticed? to get clocked and start a commotion? or b/c they felt they were required to use the mens bathroom?

honestly im not sure myself but i know from personal experience as long as i was dressed female i used the female restroom and never even really thought 2x about it...

[marissaazts]

no clue here i use the womens restroom, i just wish no one would talk to me lol

[BeardedOne]

Being a bit of a hermit, my opinion on such matters is severely skewed but I did see at some point that the gurls didn't want to use the women's restroom becauase it was "Gross".

I have such a distaste/fear of public restrooms that I would come near to letting my bowels burst before I used one. Even in upscale hotels, where the public restrooms are subject to the attentions of no less than a professional HAZMAT team on a daily basis, I will clench my cheeks until I get back to my room or, failing that, grin and bear it until the public facilities are clear of the riff-raff.

Being male, I do have the luxury of letting it flow just about anywhere at least 50% of the time, but jeezlouise, if I need a sitdown, I don't want my buttcheeks to stick to the seat when I'm done! :shock: :smh

France (Or should I use the correct pronunciation and say "Fa-rance"?) licked (As it were) this problem long ago with Unisex public facilities. Hell, some of the 'stalls' aren't even that! The squatters and the standers have no privacy at all. You're either on the throne or at the trough, no middle ground for any gender.

Gawd! I hate Fa-rance! :angry

[peggygee]

2. not exactly the same topic but i didnt want to make a new thread but thought id ask what everyones opinion of this next situation is

last night at the resturant 3 ts women came in late 20's mid 30s and late 30's ... 100% passable they werent but apparently that was just my eye and not the rest of the places... anyway my manager came up to me and said that some guy had complained that there were 3 women in the mens bathroom and i looked to the table where they had been sitting and said "well that would be b/c they werent women" and he was like "ooooohhhh" and he let it go. nothing was said to the women and it wasnt even conversation in the resturant amongst staff or patrons... so my question is... even tho these werent fully transitiioned ts women they were still representing themselves as women and like i said they also passed enough to go unnoticed .... so why did they use the mens restroom? was it to get noticed? to get clocked and start a commotion? or b/c they felt they were required to use the mens bathroom?

honestly im not sure myself but i know from personal experience as long as i was dressed female i used the female restroom and never even really thought 2x about it...

I have to admit if I was sitting and peeing, and someone came in, hiked
up their skirt, stood there and started to pee, I would have a problem with
that.

So I can see how those men felt about what they thought were women in
their bathroom.

To answer your question about the 'three amigas', I would tell them to
pick a gender and stick with it...at least through the whole night.

:roll:

[Felicia Katt]

sounds like damned if you do, damned if you don't. I just wish once that a bartenders response to complaints like that would be to kick the person whining out. They are the one causing the problem, or not offering a solution. All they really had to was ask for some additional privacy (Its not like they were in the stall with them!!) if they were really that bothered by a TG person in the bathroom. and accomodations could or should have been made. Instead customers were ejected, rights were violated and now lawsuits are being filed.

FK