Are TS Women?

[tgirlzoe]

On three different threads, there have been arguments about what transsexuals are in terms of gender. So, this should all be combined into one thread.

Man, woman, both/neither? What are we?

[irishgirl]

So great, so far everyone has said that TS women are women.

How does that translate into everyone accusing trans-girls of "tricking" guys if they don't immediatly disclose thier trans status?

[Quinn]

Wow, talk about a loaded question. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, Allanah has previously made the distinction of calling herself a “transsexual woman.” I always thought that was the most honest way of describing a transsexual that I have heard. It makes clear that while there is a difference – say at the most basic, genetic level – she considers herself a woman in most every way that counts.

Bottom line: do I think of transsexuals as women? Yes. Do I know that at the most basic, genetic level there is a difference between them and so called genetic girls (GGs)? Yes. Does society think of transsexuals as women? Unfortunately not.

-Quinn

[62des]

^ I co-sign with everything he said.

[BrendaQG]

I voted "Women with an interesting history and physiology." Because that was the closest to what I personally think.

More precisely I am a woman for most sociological purposes and will be for all social intents and purposes after SRS. I will never be a woman in the biological sense. Thus I describe myself as a transsexual woman. I agree that is the most honest way of describing what we are.

Zoe what this is really about is the same behavior that lead to our little problem earlier. You say in one time and place you are "just a woman" then seconds latter "ok so I am really not quite a woman". You contradict yourself and that just looks weird.

[tgirlzoe]

Zoe what this is really about is the same behavior that lead to our little problem earlier. You say in one time and place you are "just a woman" then seconds latter "ok so I am really not quite a woman". You contradict yourself and that just looks weird.

You were only a very small part of it, it was primarily my argument with nikkitsfun and, to a lesser degree, tsntx.

Where did I say "ok so I am really not quite a woman"?

[peggygee]

By now, you know my standard answer:

I am a woman, legally recognized by all governmental
entities as such.

I am a Black woman.

I am a post operative transwoman.

But I am not now, never have been, nor ever will be, a member of a
third sex, shemale, tranny, ladyboy, etc, etc, yada, yada....

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/Voting_Woman.gif

[tgirlzoe]

Two votes for "TS are men" but no comments on that opinion, unfortunately.

[BrendaQG]

Zoe what this is really about is the same behavior that lead to our little problem earlier. You say in one time and place you are "just a woman" then seconds latter "ok so I am really not quite a woman". You contradict yourself and that just looks weird.

You were only a very small part of it, it was primarily my argument with nikkitsfun and, to a lesser degree, tsntx.

Where did I say "ok so I am really not quite a woman"?

That was more of a parphrase of what you have said. I should not have used "".

[tsntx]

i almost wrote "w/e peggy usually says is how i feel" but b/c i couldnt remember exactly what it was i didnt want to quote her wrong...

so now that she has posted... what peggy said.... for the most part.

i feel i am a woman
i know i am a transwoman
i know i am not a genetic woman
i know that i am not a generic woman

what society sees us as is what really matters tho when it comes to work, relationships, daily routines.

if someone calls me anything other then a woman or a ts woman i correct them... esp. if its a male reference...

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult. youre free to go home for the day and please feel free to do some research online or message me on myspace and ask me any questions you may have, but again, do NOT inform customers or other ppl on subjects to which you do not know the answers"

i really enjoy being the boss... cant ya tell?

[youcancallmeclaire]

i almost wrote "w/e peggy usually says is how i feel" but b/c i couldnt remember exactly what it was i didnt want to quote her wrong...

so now that she has posted... what peggy said.... for the most part.

i feel i am a woman
i know i am a transwoman
i know i am not a genetic woman
i know that i am not a generic woman

what society sees us as is what really matters tho when it comes to work, relationships, daily routines.

if someone calls me anything other then a woman or a ts woman i correct them... esp. if its a male reference...

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult. youre free to go home for the day and please feel free to do some research online or message me on myspace and ask me any questions you may have, but again, do NOT inform customers or other ppl on subjects to which you do not know the answers"

i really enjoy being the boss... cant ya tell?


So how did they even know in the first place?
You're so pretty.

[peggygee]

I knew that one day this question would be asked, indeed I have thought
of asking it myself.

However my question was going to be directed specifically to the women.

As we have discussed many times on this board some transwomen are
very comfortable with the designation of shemale, some have no problem
being labeled trannies, others would prefer to be known as the third sex.

Then you have those that are more rigid or politically correct in their
designations.

Clearly that is the camp that I belong to.

For me there a number of criteria that need to be met for a person to
be deemed a female:

1. Clearly someone who is born with XX chromosomes would biologically
and legally be deemed female.

2. A post operative transwoman, and in some jurisdictions of the European
Union, a pre-operative transwoman can be adjudicated a female. Thus
they are legally female.

3. If a transwoman functions, comports, and carrries herself in the gender
role of female, I feel she should be deemed female. The problem arises
when society does not confer upon her alll of the rights and privileges of
her adopted gender. Additionally there may be societal stigma.

Most likely, a transwoman will not in the forseeable future be capable of
being genetically a female, that designation is left solely to the natal
female.

However, there is more than one instance where a transwoman would
be legally and functionally female.

[tgirlzoe]

wow, you're a feisty one ^_^

i still don't see why you would want to be out though. i mean, if you weren't the conversation would have been more like "that's a man" "huh? where? what?" instead of going along with the conversation. i assume people might have suspicions about me, i'm far from perfect, but i don't like it being known as a fact because then i have to hear about it and i'd rather people just treat me like a normal woman.

you said you are out now more than you used to be, why? i plan just to go deeper and deeper. assimilation has always been my goal.

[peggygee]

wow, you're a feisty one ^_^



Yup, feisty as she is lovely.

She's very lovely, and very feisty. :wink:

[tsntx]

wow, you're a feisty one ^_^

i still don't see why you would want to be out though. i mean, if you weren't the conversation would have been more like "that's a man" "huh? where? what?" instead of going along with the conversation. i assume people might have suspicions about me, i'm far from perfect, but i don't like it being known as a fact because then i have to hear about it and i'd rather people just treat me like a normal woman.

you said you are out now more than you used to be, why? i plan just to go deeper and deeper. assimilation has always been my goal.

i gotta finish getting ready for work... just waiting for my chi to get hot so i can be smoothe ;)

so when i come home ill touch up more on this short answer then...

b/c when i was stealth i found i got hurt *emotionally* more when i had to reveal my t whether to friends or lovers... people saw me as a dishonest person and even if they didnt have a problem w/ me being ts, they saw me as a liar and a deceptive person... ive come to accept myself, where im from and what i am.... so now i put it out there full fledged b/c i see no reason not to... it cuts all the people that may have a problem w/ it right out of my life w/o any drama or bs or wasted time... my life is simpler bc of it and my relationships are lasting and true beit for love or friendship. plus im a much happier person now and i think that comes from accepting and embracing myself. if you dont love yourself, how can anyone else?

to claire: who knows, maybe it was something i said or did or how i said something, the way i sound, or maybe she just picked it up... as someone once said to me "in a world of ugly, the pretty shall always stand out"... either way i dont care. she was rude, and was put in her place as far as i was concerned. after i got done informing my asc. she was being sent home for the day *and remember shes making almost $20/hr so its kinda a big deal to be sent home 6hrs b4 your shift ends* i turned to the woman and told her she was going to need to just find another store to get her makeup done at... one of my riders in my contract is that whatever location im working out of has to back me up 100% ... regardless of situation when it comes to me refusing work... the woman had to go somewhere else to get her makeup done for her wedding that she was already running late for.

its never smart to upset or insult someone who is doing you a service.

[tsntx]

lol ty peggy ;)

[tgirlzoe]

peggy:

I take the feminist road and distinguish between sex and gender. Both can have complicated definitions though and grey abounds. People are usually clearly biologically male or female. But what happens when people are born with genitalia that don't match their XY or XX chromosomes or are ambiguous or if their chromosomes aren't XY or XX? That's a grey area of biology, of sex.

Society generally groups people into "boy"/"man" or "girl"/"woman", although some cultures have had third or fourth roles for people who don't fit in. Our society doesn't but we have developed artificial hormones and surgeries so that we can fit in ~ as the member of the opposite gender. Alternatively, we have butch dykes / drag kings and fem fags / drag queens ~ gender is inseparable from sexuality in this case (although emo makes everyone androgynous).

So biologically, I'm pretty sure I'm fully classifiable as "male" (although intersexed conditions are relatively common among transsexuals) but socially, I'm a girl. There are some grey areas, certainly, but it works.

[tsntx]

<--- updated


going to work now... ttyl

[peggygee]

peggy:

I take the feminist road and distinguish between sex and gender. Both can have complicated definitions though and grey abounds. People are usually clearly biologically male or female. But what happens when people are born with genitalia that don't match their XY or XX chromosomes or are ambiguous or if their chromosomes aren't XY or XX? That's a grey area of biology, of sex.

Society generally groups people into "boy"/"man" or "girl"/"woman", although some cultures have had third or fourth roles for people who don't fit in. Our society doesn't but we have developed artificial hormones and surgeries so that we can fit in ~ as the member of the opposite gender. Alternatively, we have butch dykes / drag kings and fem fags / drag queens ~ gender is inseparable from sexuality in this case (although emo makes everyone androgynous).

So biologically, I'm pretty sure I'm fully classifiable as "male" (although intersexed conditions are relatively common among transsexuals) but socially, I'm a girl. There are some grey areas, certainly, but it works.

I fully concur with you on the 'gender is between the ears, and sex is
between the legs' construct.

That's been the theory adopted by a number of countries in the EU that
will allow individuals to have an 'F' placed on their birth certificates, even
if they have had no genital surgery.

That measure was proposed in New York City recently, but failed. Also
previously a few jurisdictions in the US would allow someone to have
their records ameneded if they had had an orchiechtomy.

For me, if a person meets the Benjamin criteria for transsexual, their
gender designation should be amended.

Basically, if she walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, she's a duck.

[Kriss]

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult.

AND HOW IS THE WOMAN'S RACE RELEVANT TO THE ANECDOTE? WHY ARE WE INFORMED THAT SHE WAS INDIAN AND YET THE RACE OF THE "GIRL" IS LEFT OUT AS IF IT IS NOT IMPORTANT. WAS THE GIRL WHITE?, BLACK, INDIAN? OR JUST A GIRL?

[eviltwin585]

so heres my story

my friends and i saw a woman at a restaurant we frequent for lunch, and we figured she was a transwoman. she was really quite beautiful- great hair, great eyes, well dressed (if a bit overly sexy). the queues to see she was a ts woman was she had a deeper than expected voice- and in her tight jeans, her package was visible enough where you could 'tell'. well, anyways after we left, in the privacy of our car, my friends just had to have a comment- the old 'thats a man, baby!' (ala austin powers). i was silent on the joke, tipping them off that i'm supportive towards ts (as well as gays, as they already knew). they, being my friends, followed me back on to the high ground and dropped the subject.

a few weeks later, we saw the same woman at the same restaurant, this time she was alone. this place is quite small and quickly crowded, and she ended up sitting next to one of those friends of mine and across from me. i'm glad to say there was no 'wink wink, nudge nudge' from my friends, and I soon flagged her in conversation with us. nothing was ever said about her being a ts- it was just silently realized. we just shot the shit and ate german food. turns out she was actually german.

it also turns out my friends who had defaulted to 'macho' were able to grow up and become accepting.

[tsntx]

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult.

AND HOW IS THE WOMAN'S RACE RELEVANT TO THE ANECDOTE? WHY ARE WE INFORMED THAT SHE WAS INDIAN AND YET THE RACE OF THE "GIRL" IS LEFT OUT AS IF IT IS NOT IMPORTANT. WAS THE GIRL WHITE?, BLACK, INDIAN? OR JUST A GIRL?

you got me i hate indian women and their curry smelling, open faced roast beef sandwich vaginas :roll: :roll:

bc that was the most info i could give on the woman, i didnt want to name the asc. so i didnt reveal any info about her... im not rascist. dont try to go there. its not up for discussion.

[LG]

Back to the initial question here, I can't believe how many people answered: "Men expressing their feminine side". I thought expressing one's feminine side amounted to not much more than being a little sensitive, crying during soppy movies, hoarding chocolate in the house and getting all gooey at the sight of a bouncy little baby. But now you're telling me that people go through all the anxiety and pain of taking hormones, having excruciatingly painful hair-removal procedures and paying several thousand dollars for permanent surgeries, often including lopping off their floppy bits just to be in touch with their feminine side. That just don't make no sense...

Transsexuals are women, plain and simple. Some are physiologically 100% female on the outside, others are getting close to that. They may have been classified as male at birth but most of them never felt like men, never wanted to be men.

The whole discussion of a "third sex" makes things interesting but complicated. Some transsexuals are happy with this classification, it seems, but others not so much. Me, I don't know, But I would never class any of the girls here as guys.

Is it because classifying them as men would mean I am gay? Not really. I think gay men fancy other men. Take one look at the pretty girls here and try and tell me that any of them are men. I dare you. And if you do, you will incur their wrath as well as mine.

peace

LG

[gunn]

GOOD QUESTION AND IT DEPENDS IF THE PERSON IS A TOP OR A BOTTOM,LOL. SERIOUSLY I THINK IT'S A NON-ISSUE JUST CALL THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT YOU TO CALL THEM.THEN SIT BACK RELAX AND ENJOY THE BEST OF BOUTH WORLDS!!!

[BrendaQG]

That would be a vote for a third gender then ?

[lucx]

absolutely women as i see it... maybe i'm a bit naive but that's what i think... and TSNTX IS a complete SMART WOMAN

[CORVETTEDUDE]

Back to the initial question here, I can't believe how many people answered: "Men expressing their feminine side". I thought expressing one's feminine side amounted to not much more than being a little sensitive, crying during soppy movies, hoarding chocolate in the house and getting all gooey at the sight of a bouncy little baby. But now you're telling me that people go through all the anxiety and pain of taking hormones, having excruciatingly painful hair-removal procedures and paying several thousand dollars for permanent surgeries, often including lopping off their floppy bits just to be in touch with their feminine side. That just don't make no sense...

Transsexuals are women, plain and simple. Some are physiologically 100% female on the outside, others are getting close to that. They may have been classified as male at birth but most of them never felt like men, never wanted to be men.

The whole discussion of a "third sex" makes things interesting but complicated. Some transsexuals are happy with this classification, it seems, but others not so much. Me, I don't know, But I would never class any of the girls here as guys.

Is it because classifying them as men would mean I am gay? Not really. I think gay men fancy other men. Take one look at the pretty girls here and try and tell me that any of them are men. I dare you. And if you do, you will incur their wrath as well as mine.

peace

LG

LG...you have eloquently stated your opinion as I would. Therefore, I will merely co-sign your statement and say, "That's Two!"
:rock2

[tsntx]

absolutely women as i see it... maybe i'm a bit naive but that's what i think... and TSNTX IS a complete SMART WOMAN

well i try :oops: <--- blushing

ty

as far as guns comment

stfu.... thats a stupid basis for this topic

[Solitary Brother]

i almost wrote "w/e peggy usually says is how i feel" but b/c i couldnt remember exactly what it was i didnt want to quote her wrong...

so now that she has posted... what peggy said.... for the most part.

i feel i am a woman
i know i am a transwoman
i know i am not a genetic woman
i know that i am not a generic woman

what society sees us as is what really matters tho when it comes to work, relationships, daily routines.

if someone calls me anything other then a woman or a ts woman i correct them... esp. if its a male reference...

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult. youre free to go home for the day and please feel free to do some research online or message me on myspace and ask me any questions you may have, but again, do NOT inform customers or other ppl on subjects to which you do not know the answers"

i really enjoy being the boss... cant ya tell?

OH MY!
You actually got spooked at the MAC counter eh?
Oh wait I forgot your in Texas......Im sure your use to the HIGH level of ignorance displayed by the natives there.
So sorry love.
In all seriousness though.......you are looking great as of late.
I saw your boy picture when you posted it a while back and you have come a LONG ways.

[Ecstatic]

Imho, transwomen are women, unless they clearly express individually that they prefer to referred to as "the third sex." To me this is true and fundamental regardless of their genital condition or preference (whether to remain non-op or progress to post-op).

[Jericho]

Imho, transwomen are women, unless they clearly express individually that they prefer to referred to as "the third sex." To me this is true and fundamental regardless of their genital condition or preference (whether to remain non-op or progress to post-op).

Though i chose 'woman' from the limited options, cosign this.

[TrueBeauty TS]

Imho, transwomen are women, unless they clearly express individually that they prefer to referred to as "the third sex." To me this is true and fundamental regardless of their genital condition or preference (whether to remain non-op or progress to post-op).



Thank God! Finally, a voice of reason!

Well said, Ecstatic.


.

[downblow]

On three different threads, there have been arguments about what transsexuals are in terms of gender. So, this should all be combined into one thread.

Man, woman, both/neither? What are we?

Transexuals are definitely women in my eyes. The best type of women :D
Unfortunately most of our societies don't see them as women. Someone wrote earlier in the post about the importance of societies views. I disagree.
Society has been wrong on many issues in the past. What we need is stronger people in our society who will step up to the plate and right the wrongs transexuals face daily.

[werwt22]

Hmmmm......A lot of TS are comfortable being known as men so it's hard to say. I know quite a few TS who carry themselves as women (dress, speech, squat, the whole 9) all the time, but still see themselves as men in the end. IMO It's just one of those X factors that can only be defined individually.

But like I always say....reality is perception so in the end now matter how far you've come in your surgeries, it's always going to be someone else's opinion and who's to say they are wrong.

[LG]

Imho, transwomen are women, unless they clearly express individually that they prefer to referred to as "the third sex." To me this is true and fundamental regardless of their genital condition or preference (whether to remain non-op or progress to post-op).

Thank God! Finally, a voice of reason!

.
What do you mean finally? I more or less said the same thing! Then again Ecstatic and I seem to agree on almost everything.

Great minds, as they say, think alike, Ecstatic. :wink:

[Ecstatic]

Imho, transwomen are women, unless they clearly express individually that they prefer to referred to as "the third sex." To me this is true and fundamental regardless of their genital condition or preference (whether to remain non-op or progress to post-op).

Thank God! Finally, a voice of reason!

.
What do you mean finally? I more or less said the same thing! Then again Ecstatic and I seem to agree on almost everything.

Great minds, as they say, think alike, Ecstatic. :wink:
True! And true of True, lol! Thanks for the compliment, TrueBeauty. LG and I do concur on most subjects, it seems.

[bigjake1965]

Personally I think labels suck. I know for a fact I am not qualified to say for anyone but if a transexual says she is a women I am ok with that. I just look forward to the day when they can be accepted for who they are.

[DonPA]

I have always thought of TS's as women. They may have been born a man, but they have become a woman. and to me that makes them a woman.

[tgirlzoe]

Hmmmm......A lot of TS are comfortable being known as men so it's hard to say. I know quite a few TS who carry themselves as women (dress, speech, squat, the whole 9) all the time, but still see themselves as men in the end. IMO It's just one of those X factors that can only be defined individually.

But like I always say....reality is perception so in the end now matter how far you've come in your surgeries, it's always going to be someone else's opinion and who's to say they are wrong.

With the possible exception of autogynephilia, addressed in another thread (or several), why would someone go through a lifetime of fighting to be who they wanted to be and all the cost and pain associated with that if they didn't see themselves as a woman? You'd think they would want to look like a man if they saw themself as a man. I mean, you could be a cute gay boi, you don't have to be a macho man, but you wouldn't want to have the social role of a woman. You'd end up having some sort of weird man-made FTM-type gender crisis. :-/

[Paladin]

i almost wrote "w/e peggy usually says is how i feel" but b/c i couldnt remember exactly what it was i didnt want to quote her wrong...

so now that she has posted... what peggy said.... for the most part.

i feel i am a woman
i know i am a transwoman
i know i am not a genetic woman
i know that i am not a generic woman

what society sees us as is what really matters tho when it comes to work, relationships, daily routines.

if someone calls me anything other then a woman or a ts woman i correct them... esp. if its a male reference...

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult. youre free to go home for the day and please feel free to do some research online or message me on myspace and ask me any questions you may have, but again, do NOT inform customers or other ppl on subjects to which you do not know the answers"

i really enjoy being the boss... cant ya tell?

Did you check the laws on this in your state??? You just better hope that your worker doesn't file a harrassment complaint against you. Since you published it in an online forum, it's be mighty difficult to claim you never said it...

[justatransgirl]

I didn't vote on this thread because the options were too limited and I didn't fit any of the options.

Frankly I no longer know, or care what I "am." I'm just Jamie. I used to have things all catagorized and I knew exactly who I was. But in my life as a professional entertainer things sometimes get blurred between my real life and my business life.

I've decided I'm a "boygirl." That's part girl, part boy, part both, part neither. I'm not a complete girl. But I'm not a man either. And I don't know if I'm part of an emerging "third gender" or just a composite of gender and sexual desires. And it just doesn't amtter to me anymore. I'm tired of trying to figure it all out. So I decided to just live as myself - whatever and whoever that is today.

I think that's a large part of why I receive the acceptance that I do. I don't try to be anyone that I'm not. So as tsntx mentioned I think because people don't feel deceived by me they don't feel threatened.

My partner on the other hand does NOT consider herself a transsexual, other than in the clinical sense - or from the viewpoint of people who must catagorize everything. To her she is simply a girl with a reproductive deformity.

Tsntx I applaude you sweetie for sticking up for yourself and your co-worker for doing the same.

I understand there are people who may have never encountered a TS - and if a respectful question is presented I will try to answer it. But (and this hasn't happened in ages - and on only three occasions total in my entire life) if someone is disrespectful to me regarding my gender they will get to experience the residual 82nd Airborne paratrooper in me... :-)

I make occasional exceptions. One is a sweet neighbor lady who's about 80 and just cannot grasp the concept that a boy can also be a girl. I give her a break because she meets me for the first time about once a week. She's a lovely lady with a 3 minute memory.

Giggle,
TS Jamie

[tsntx]

i almost wrote "w/e peggy usually says is how i feel" but b/c i couldnt remember exactly what it was i didnt want to quote her wrong...

so now that she has posted... what peggy said.... for the most part.

i feel i am a woman
i know i am a transwoman
i know i am not a genetic woman
i know that i am not a generic woman

what society sees us as is what really matters tho when it comes to work, relationships, daily routines.

if someone calls me anything other then a woman or a ts woman i correct them... esp. if its a male reference...

yesterday, while at work as a makeup artist for MAC inside Nordstroms dept. store, an indian woman said to the girl doing her makeup:
"thats a man"
the girl said "yes so?"
"but hes got breast"
the girl said "and?"

then i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult. youre free to go home for the day and please feel free to do some research online or message me on myspace and ask me any questions you may have, but again, do NOT inform customers or other ppl on subjects to which you do not know the answers"

i really enjoy being the boss... cant ya tell?

Did you check the laws on this in your state??? You just better hope that your worker doesn't file a harrassment complaint against you. Since you published it in an online forum, it's be mighty difficult to claim you never said it...

i have nothing to fear in this statement... could you please enlighten me where i should fear her feeling i harassed her? and how did i harass her? in all seriousness... please point this out to me. thnx. :?:

[dabaldone]

I've been in a LTR with a transwoman for more than 4 yrs. I've also dated a ton of genetic women and have been married twice. All of the trans-women I know are definitely women, form their attitudes, how they think and how others see them
I like Tsntx's comment that she is not a "generic" woman. Trans-women are just a cut above....in my humble opinion.

[melissacarter]

What a lame set of answers and typical of the outsider looking in. Admirers, as much as we want and need them, are surprsingly out of tune with who and what we are. Then again, half the admirers are married and sleeping next to a wife whose gained 40 lbs since their wedding night. So for many, we serve only as a fantasy escape from their regular world.

I would have liked to see at least one answer that said "100% woman, regardless of their genitals". That would at least tell us there are men that view us as women, not some exotic creature captured in the hills of the Serengeti.

I have met a few men that truly see us as women. They are unfortunately not the norm. To those men, thank you.

www.melissacarter.net

[LG]

What a lame set of answers and typical of the outsider looking in. Admirers, as much as we want and need them, are surprsingly out of tune with who and what we are. Then again, half the admirers are married and sleeping next to a wife whose gained 40 lbs since their wedding night. So for many, we serve only as a fantasy escape from their regular world.

I would have liked to see at least one answer that said "100% woman, regardless of their genitals". That would at least tell us there are men that view us as women, not some exotic creature captured in the hills of the Serengeti.

I have met a few men that truly see us as women. They are unfortunately not the norm. To those men, thank you.

www.melissacarter.net

I agree that we men, however hard we try, can never truly "get you" because we cannot place ourselves in your position. We rely on our inner feelings, on how we interact with you (socially more than sexually), on our perceptions- right or wrong as they may be- and on what we read and find out for ourselves.

Early on, when I realised I was attracted to transgirls, I didn't really care much for all this. But over time, interacting on this board and viewing the websites of a great many girls online, such as that of Calpernia Addams (and specifically this section: http://www.calpernia.com/aboutme/transsexual_definition.htm) I came to understand more. I like to think that am I one of those "few men" you mention. And I hope there are more than a few of us.

If you read through the posts you will see my response on the original poll question and you will also see how one or two people have agreed with me. In his post here, Ecstatic said much the same as I did in my post, but a little more concisely. But basically what we both meant to say was "100% women regardless of their genitals". That said, both he and I (and I think many of us) recognize that some transwomen seem to prefer to be categorized into a third category. For more on this, you can view my thread here: http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=21338 You can also view the Angelica Ross video on youtube which inspired it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKnRVbg-AfM

So yes, some of us accept you as women. But the truth is we will all remain outsiders in a sense. It's just that some of us want to know more about what's inside. All you girls have to do is let us into your world and your lives.
:)

[melissacarter]

Thank you, LG. I did read your replies and did take note of both your sensitivity and understanding along with Ecstatic's.

Thank you for Calpernia's weblink. I recently read her story in a book I'm currently reading called "Sexual Metamorphosis". Her description is excellent and I also found your post about the differences between a transsexual woman and an effeminate male interesting.

Clearly, guys like you go beyond the flesh to a deeper understanding. I would imagine from your end, it makes your relationships with transwomen far more fullfilling. Perhaps there are more of you good guys out there than I originally thought. You are also making me re-evaluate my original perception of the HA site, as I thought it was mostly sex, sex, sex but clearly, that is not the case. Thanks.

[melissacarter]

DarkThanos, you are right I just noticed that.

Jeez, I'm not passing judgement but I can't think of one tgirl that would feel comfortable with any of those definitions.

[crayons]

i stepped in and said "mam im doing your daughters makeup for her wedding, if you do not correct yourself IMMEIDIATELY i will refuse service and no one in this STORE will work on yall"
i turned to the girl and said "i am a woman, i am a trans-woman. i am NOT a man and for you to acknowledge otherwise is an insult. youre free to go home for the day and please feel free to do some research online or message me on myspace and ask me any questions you may have, but again, do NOT inform customers or other ppl on subjects to which you do not know the answers"

i really enjoy being the boss... cant ya tell?

You go girl!

[yodajazz]

I have said this before, but I'll say it again. The more I learn about TS women, the more I see their lives a just regular women, so to speak. Often times I don't even need to make a distinction. For example I can say that some men only go after women to get between thier legs. Or that women feel a lot of pressure by being judged by their looks.


Then again, half the admirers are married and sleeping next to a wife whose gained 40 lbs since their wedding night. So for many, we serve only as a fantasy escape from their regular world.


I want to speak up for married men, and say don't write them all off. Some marriages are truly unhappy ones. In my case my wife will sometmes say, "you'd be happier with a ts woman". Everyone deserves happiness, even married people. Or do they?

[Ecstatic]

Thank you, LG. I did read your replies and did take note of both your sensitivity and understanding along with Ecstatic's.
Thanks, Melissa. I understand your frustration, but I also appreciate that you recognize that some of us have evolved a bit beyond the caveman, lol. I enjoy reading your comments as they help move the dialogue along.

[LG]

Thank you, LG. I did read your replies and did take note of both your sensitivity and understanding along with Ecstatic's.

Thank you for Calpernia's weblink. I recently read her story in a book I'm currently reading called "Sexual Metamorphosis". Her description is excellent and I also found your post about the differences between a transsexual woman and an effeminate male interesting.

Clearly, guys like you go beyond the flesh to a deeper understanding. I would imagine from your end, it makes your relationships with transwomen far more fullfilling. Perhaps there are more of you good guys out there than I originally thought. You are also making me re-evaluate my original perception of the HA site, as I thought it was mostly sex, sex, sex but clearly, that is not the case. Thanks.

Thank you for your post and comments Melissa. As far as the link to Calpernia Addam's site, you're welcome. I found her website very interesting and informative and am always looking to read what girls like her have to say. I try to post links to interesting websites or news items whenever I can.

I think there are some "good guys" in here and out there in the "real world". I 'm glad you're reevaluating your view of this site and hope you will stick around. Dialogue and interaction are good for us all. I look forward to reading your future posts here.

[mbf]

DarkThanos, you are right I just noticed that.

Jeez, I'm not passing judgement but I can't think of one tgirl that would feel comfortable with any of those definitions.

well, we got lots of different folx on here...old, young, pre op, post op, non op, pornstars, boyfriend/husband-material, sex-freaks, bottoms, tops, versatiles......

thats what i like bout the board. diversity.

oh and miss carter, ure h.o.t.

[mofungo]

I'll try to keep my response concise.

The commonly accepted definition of gender is a social construct (from a sociological perspective). That is, femininity and masculinity are (generally) defined by what we do, not our biology. Any answer to this question depends on the paradigm adopted by the responder.

Having said that, labeling a transsexual as male or female is a rather pointless exercise as it is not up to anyone but the transsexual to define their gender. Studies on male, female, and transgender people have shown a part of the brain called the 'sexual dimporphic nucleas' (SDN) dictates our gender identification. The female SDN is twice the size of the male SDN, and surprise surprise, the M to F transsexual SDN is the same size as the female SDN. This discovery supports the feelings expressed by a large number of M to F transsexuals that in early life (as males) they never 'felt' male; they always felt they were female, and in later life, chose to 'transform' through hormones, surgery, or both.

Another issue worth some consideration is the percentage of M to F preo-op transsexuals who 'transform' for reasons other than genetic (i.e. those who don't transform because they identify as female, but transform for gratification of sexual fantasy/fetish). It may be a small percentage of transsexuals, but illustrates my point that labeling a transsexual as male or female is beyond our ability.

From a sociological perspective there are other considerations, like transsexuals who have gender preference for sexual encounters. For example, how would you classify a M to F pre-op transsexual who only has sex with females?

Personally, I would answer the question, "What are transsexuals" by saying they are people who deserve the same rights and respect that heterosexuals enjoy. Gender is a social construct, subject to the paradigm you adopt. Labelling a person can never be constructive.

[bellamy]

I just saw this one. And it's not an easy question to answer the way it's worded.
I believe as post op ts is a woman all the at what point in the transition do you become a woman? Is it when you decide to go full time? When you start taking horamones? When you have your first femenazation surgury? When you just decide even if you haven't done any of the above?

The easy answer and prolly the right one is if the ts says shes a woman then she's a woman.

[mofungo]

The easy answer and prolly the right one is if the ts says shes a woman then she's a woman.

Hi Bellamy. I'm with you on this one; although I used many more words to say what you have said so succinctly.

[tgirlzoe]

DarkThanos, you are right I just noticed that.

Jeez, I'm not passing judgement but I can't think of one tgirl that would feel comfortable with any of those definitions.

This thread was started as a response to arguments that were going on about whether TS were women in a couple other threads. I referred to myself as a "girl" and nikkitsfun (whether it's Nikki or Michael...) went off on me on how I wasn't a girl and never would be and so on and so forth.

The main thing we were discussing was whether allowing people to assume that you are a woman is a lie, particularly if a guy* is interested in you. She said not telling is deceitful and you deserve whatever the guy does to you if he finds out and flips out because you've hurt his heterosexual ego. I consider myself a woman and it doesn't change that if society has a different opinion upon discovering my genital configuration and therefore it's not a lie. After genital surgery, you have even more freedom to just live as a normal woman and who you choose to tell about your past.

I am not sure that I see how there is a missing option in the poll, you have "man", "woman" and "other" so "other" would encompass anything other than "man" or "woman"... So justatransgirl's "boygirl" identity would be "other". What other option would you add?

~~~
* or, in the case of my experience on Sunday, a girl.

[tgirlzoe]

I just saw this one. And it's not an easy question to answer the way it's worded.
I believe as post op ts is a woman all the at what point in the transition do you become a woman? Is it when you decide to go full time? When you start taking horamones? When you have your first femenazation surgury? When you just decide even if you haven't done any of the above?

The easy answer and prolly the right one is if the ts says shes a woman then she's a woman.

I would say when someone is living as a woman, they are a woman. Even part-time transsexuals, crossdressers and female impersonators who all live some of their life as a man are women when they are being one. This is because I think gender is how you are treated in society and viewed by other people. If someone sees me as a woman, I am a woman to them. I don't think my parents will ever see me as anything other than a boy avoiding my "duties" as a man and "living a homosexual lifestyle." To to State, I am male because I was designated that way by the doctor when I was born (but that is a biological sex, not a social gender).

To myself, of course, I've always been a girl even when no one would believe me. More so now that I am living as one and even more years down the line, after surgery and assimilation. My own ability to be comfortable with my place in society and my body and my relationship to other people are what is important to me.

[melissacarter]

I would say when someone is living as a woman, they are a woman. Even part-time transsexuals, crossdressers and female impersonators who all live some of their life as a man are women when they are being one.

Zoe, I basically agree with you and understand better why you described the categories as you did. I think you're right to say a transwoman is a woman if she decides so. I would qualify your statement by adding in most cases the transwoman is justified but there are a few I've seen who fall short physically (height, build, facial features), the way they carry themselves, their mannerisms, voice, etc... I don't mean to sound snooty or judgmental but I've seen transgendered people who are so manly in nature, they could never pass as a woman, not even close, yet they insist on living a 24/7 female existence. I would think that must be torture; that every errand, every walk in the park, every stroll down the supermarket aisle is greeted with uncomfortable stares. I'm not criticizing their right to express the fem inside, God knows we all had to fight for that, I'm saying that others will not view them as a woman even if they do. They will see the dress, the hair, the makeup,etc... but they will see a man not a woman. So yes they are a woman because they're living as a woman but the public does not share the same view. I almost give them more credit than the ultra fem superfox because they have to hold their chin up everyday and say "fuck 'em", I'm being me.

[tgirlzoe]

I would say when someone is living as a woman, they are a woman. Even part-time transsexuals, crossdressers and female impersonators who all live some of their life as a man are women when they are being one.

Zoe, I basically agree with you and understand better why you described the categories as you did. I think you're right to say a transwoman is a woman if she decides so. I would qualify your statement by adding in most cases the transwoman is justified but there are a few I've seen who fall short physically (height, build, facial features), the way they carry themselves, their mannerisms, voice, etc... I don't mean to sound snooty or judgmental but I've seen transgendered people who are so manly in nature, they could never pass as a woman, not even close, yet they insist on living a 24/7 female existence. I would think that must be torture; that every errand, every walk in the park, every stroll down the supermarket aisle is greeted with uncomfortable stares. I'm not criticizing their right to express the fem inside, God knows we all had to fight for that, I'm saying that others will not view them as a woman even if they do. They will see the dress, the hair, the makeup,etc... but they will see a man not a woman. So yes they are a woman because they're living as a woman but the public does not share the same view. I almost give them more credit than the ultra fem superfox because they have to hold their chin up everyday and say "fuck 'em", I'm being me.


Oh, I definitely think it takes guts to do that. I used to be something like that. I mean, I was so visible as a gay boy, I couldn't pass for straight if my life depended on it despite pressure from my parents. After my parents and I had a fight about me being trans when I was 16, I took it to a new level and became very visible, very out, very political, very flaming... and then I fell in love with a woman who was just as visible, out, and political as I was ~ a fag and a dyke in love.*

I was riding on so much angst fighting my parents all the time and heteronormative high school society. After I moved out of my parents', into college I lost all that drive and that's when I began transition now that I didn't have anyone to stop me.

But one thing I knew was that I didn't actually like being the token gay kid at my high school. I didn't like being so visible and out. I'd be damned if I was going to be the token transsexual at my university (gay is not interesting enough with this many people...). So I left school for a year because my fiance (the "dyke" I mentioned earlier) and I were going to move in together but that didn't work out. I moved back and lived off campus for a couple quarters before moving into the dorms stealthily. Only a few people in my town know about me because I want everyone to just treat me normal.

I'm not saying I pass perfectly, I don't think anyone does and I know I'm personally on the low-end of the scale between "girl next door" and "creepy crossdresser" but I try and I think that's all anyone does. To people who see me as a woman, I am a woman. To those who see me as a transsexual, that is what I am I guess, if that's a category. I mean, there are people who know that I am transsexual who can't picture me as a boy, even if they've seen old photos. Mainly, I'm just me trying to get by and live my life regardless of gender.

It must be be very hard for people to live their lives being unable to ever pass. It's sad, it really is. They must find it better to live like that than to live as men though or else they wouldn't do it. I wish them the best.

~~~
* - I started transition during our relationship. He finally did two years after we broke up.

[yodajazz]

I would say when someone is living as a woman, they are a woman. Even part-time transsexuals, crossdressers and female impersonators who all live some of their life as a man are women when they are being one.

Zoe, I basically agree with you and understand better why you described the categories as you did. I think you're right to say a transwoman is a woman if she decides so. I would qualify your statement by adding in most cases the transwoman is justified but there are a few I've seen who fall short physically (height, build, facial features), the way they carry themselves, their mannerisms, voice, etc... I don't mean to sound snooty or judgmental but I've seen transgendered people who are so manly in nature, they could never pass as a woman, not even close, yet they insist on living a 24/7 female existence. I would think that must be torture; that every errand, every walk in the park, every stroll down the supermarket aisle is greeted with uncomfortable stares. I'm not criticizing their right to express the fem inside, God knows we all had to fight for that, I'm saying that others will not view them as a woman even if they do. They will see the dress, the hair, the makeup,etc... but they will see a man not a woman. So yes they are a woman because they're living as a woman but the public does not share the same view. I almost give them more credit than the ultra fem superfox because they have to hold their chin up everyday and say "fuck 'em", I'm being me.

I too agree with the concept of self defintion and have said so in the past. I do understand that many people will not accept this and define 'women' only by their own view. However I think that public opinion can be shifted, so that more people are understanding, and less judgmental. Media has a powerful effect on shaping public perception. I think we are seeing more positive images as time goes on. Just showing real people or complex characters does help. I believe that public opinon towards gays has shifted a lot in the past twenty years. They have greater numbers than the ts population, so it is understandable that they would be ahead on acceptance. But I see positive change for acceptance as long as people still fight for it.

[NeoXtrim]

Two votes for "TS are men" but no comments on that opinion, unfortunately.

just for understanding this comment: you say transsexuals are just from category "male" to category "female"? what about ~ female to ~ male? why shouldn't these ppl called transsexuals, too?
/edit 2 oh sorry i misunderstood it, thought you were angry that someone voted for "tgirls are male"

so i don't get the poll, cuz it's just too easy to generalise this question to just 3 answers

/edit just want to add my oppinion: in a perfect/good world everyone could decide for himself/herself/~self what they want to be

[carsons_X]

LOL im lovin this shit. :lol:

IMO: peggy your all women aside from the facts that you may have some form of a male chromosome. either way theres NOTHING trans (both) about you.

Reading some of the post its laughable to see the newbs in here have no realization of the word TRANS meaning BOTH. hence theres no such thing as a TRANS women, maybe TRANS but not transwomen............. and to whomever reads this take into consideration theres a reason for the word HERMAPHRODITE which these freaks are not.

Good to see 19 people have a sensible education.

[NeoXtrim]

trans is latin and means "across", "on the far side" or "beyond"

just weird why you think to say the first one is to be educated
my opinion is that the majority of them ddidn't break with the imagination "one time male - everytime male"
like if the first sex/gender you are forced into should be your only true sex/gender

that's what i read by looking at this poll

it's useless because you can't create this categories without to know why someone choose this and especially WHAT he means by choosing it

just quick what they say:

1) transsexuals are just men being female
--> that's just a one-sided perception where only transwomen (male to female) would exist. what about transmen (female to male)? aren't they transsexual, too?
so what do they think who voted for it? a guy is a guy and can never be a girl?
2) just women
--> every transsexual is female with male parts, so the basis is just to work with the concept of putting all transsexuals into the category of females
again, what about ts who don't want to be put into the female category?
so what do they think who voted? just using all ts as a female with an exotic extra?
3) 2 and more options
trans is not intersexed, sure
most say trans is from on sex/gender to another
so i wouldn't say it's completely different.
so what do they think who voted? freaks? diseased? unnormal?

it's full of questions and full of misunderstandings
i think it's not wise to take this poll seriously, sorry

but i like the discussion (although i didn't have time to read all the postings)

[evari]

ts are women..with a nice extra

[tsfootlover]

Wow, talk about a loaded question. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, Allanah has previously made the distinction of calling herself a “transsexual woman.” I always thought that was the most honest way of describing a transsexual that I have heard. It makes clear that while there is a difference – say at the most basic, genetic level – she considers herself a woman in most every way that counts.

Bottom line: do I think of transsexuals as women? Yes. Do I know that at the most basic, genetic level there is a difference between them and so called genetic girls (GGs)? Yes. Does society think of transsexuals as women? Unfortunately not.

-QuinnVery well said.

[PeterK]

Two votes for "TS are men" but no comments on that opinion, unfortunately.

If they get the surgery wich makes them a woman i would say yes.
Otherwise no.