Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

[NYTSJulie]

Ok the question is........Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

There is a large spectrum of looks among transsexuals. Ranging from some girls being absolutely beautiful to some being very unattractive.

Then you have passability. Some girls are extremely passable then others you can clock from a mile away.

Beauty and passability are two different things and dont always go hand and hand.

The question is what is more important? If your a guy what is more important to you, and if your a ts what do you strive for....Beauty or Passability?

[ballzNnutz]

imo the 2 correlate i have yet to see an unattractive passable tg.

[OEMEnemyNum1]

Beauty, in my opinion. Sometimes you have a beautiful girl, but she's 6'2 you know....

[NYTSJulie]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.

I got these pictures off of Lynn Conway's site. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

[Jericho]

The question is what is more important? If your a guy what is more important to you, and if your a ts what do you strive for....Beauty or Passability?

Kinda shallow, but, looks, rather than passability.

[NYTSJulie]

Or ladies if you had to choose what would you rather be attractive or passable, I AM NOT SAYING SOMEONE CAN NOT BE BOTH, but if you had to be one or the other what is more important to you?

[LG]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.


Julie: Who can tell? I can tell and you can tell. Most of the people here can tell (in fact, I would probably also be able to guess the second girl was TS if I saw her in a mall, for example). But the man in the street? I doubt it. To an untrained eye, she is just a hot babe.

As long as she's not 6'2'' plus with huge hands and the physique of a basketball player or male swimmer, then I don't think I'd have a problem with any girl as long as I found her attractive and kind hearted.

In the end, a girl's character is more important than the way she looks. If the first girl was a bitch, I wouldn't want to date her. If the second girl, who is not so pretty was a real sweety, why not.

Finally let me say that I consider you both "passable" and gorgeous.


Leora: The same goes for you too- and you are becoming prettier and prettier. Watching you has been like watching a flower blossom.

[pot]

Interesting question - being a male I would go for the attractive one, but it could be if we have just more to choose from than just a picture it could be otherwise

[ballzNnutz]

well that example definetly throws a wrench in the discussion. thats a double edge sword and really hard to decide on since i have never been in a relationship with a ts whether it be sexual or otherwise. one who would be with a tg for sex would most likely choose the "attractive" one but if it was all about a relationship one may choose the "passable" tg but it obviously varys for different people.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.

I got these pictures off of Lynn Conway's site. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

I could never guess that the lady on pic # 1 is a TS, no way.
An I can say that the lady on pic # 2 is as attractive as the
first one, she's just considerably older, that's all.

[SarahG]

Tougher question, harder decision. Can't I be both? lol

I think you can be... I suspect it would be easier for a girl who is passable to become more attractive (granted "attractive" isn't much of a subjective term...) via plastic surgery, lifestyle changes or whatever else.

Alot of the features that can make someone unpassible can't be "fixed" threw surgeries (I don't care how good a girl looks, if she is 6'9 w/out heels she's gonna have a hard time passing in normal everyday life). Consider the girls, such as from certain northern European countries who can transition before puberty- they pass but they look just like any normal GG their age would... rather or not those girls are deemed "attractive" later on is then based on genetics, lifestyle (you don't normally hear people talking about how attractive a girl is if she is 900+ lbs) and rather or not they seek cosmetic procedures to improve upon what they were given to start with from nature.



I agree that the two are linked but I don't believe it to be a cause-effect type of a relationship insofar as there can be ugly girls that can pass perfectly fine and there can be attractive girls that pass perfectly fine. However if someone does not pass due to an extreme abnormality, that is going to probably IMO hurt their chances at being deemed attractive.

Of course, what alot of people fail to take into consideration is that passing factors can include lots of things which are not expressed threw photographs used for judging "attractiveness"- for instance mannerisms, attitudes and speech/voice are all very important to how well someone can pass in public; yet none are expressed in photographs... and in online media that seems to be what people focus on. I have heard some people refere to this as a 3 to 1 rule... basically it is a ratio that states that to pass you need 3 female specific characteristics for every male characteristics... assuming there are no dead giveaways (like a full grown beard)... so being on the tall side (so long its not extreme) is ok so long you have other stuff to counter it (like breasts, a feminine/passible face, small frame, feminine mannerisms, passible voice, whatever).

[iloveshemales77]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.

I got these pictures off of Lynn Conway's site. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

I could never guess that the lady on pic # 1 is a TS, no way.
An I can say that the lady on pic # 2 is as attractive as the
first one, she's just considerably older, that's all.

Ohh man, I would always have plumpet for nr. 1, as TS as attractive as she is. I actually think the second girl is passable and cute! She's the kind of girl that I would notice in the office and secretly fancy a bit! Put some make up on her plus some flattering clothes and wow, you've got a stunner! I have a soft spot for red heads anyway. :wink:

[TJ347]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.


Honestly, the TS in the first picture is indeed more attractive (as well as obviously younger), but I don't personally think either is passable. Not that what I think matters to anyone, but just saying...

[LG]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.


Honestly, the TS in the first picture is indeed more attractive (as well as obviously younger), but I don't personally think either is passable. Not that what I think matters to anyone, but just saying...

I agree in the sense that I'd be able to tell both were TSs in a New York heartbeat (do hears beat faster in New York? And are the minutes really shorter?). But then again you and I have...ahem...trained ourselves to look for these things. I still think that most people would not be able to tell that either is a TS without looking very closely.

[odelay24]

It depends if you think masculine looking Tgirls are attractive.

For me, the most attractive ones just look like girls, except they happen to be TG.

However, I know some people find a more masucline girl more attractive, they like to be able to tell she's a Tgirl, which I can understand.

I think the hottest girl (and I've never seen one), would be one that dresses like a totally normal girl. Like, doesn't try to look hot, just cool.

Not like this:

http://www.viceland.com/int/dos_donts/884/main.jpg?44


But like this:

http://www.viceland.com/int/dos_donts/555/main.jpg?44


Anyway, that was a bit off topic.
My point is, sometimes PASSABLE can mean attractive, and sometimes it doesn't. It depends on that person.

BTW, as a side note: Any guy would pic that Asian girl as being TG.
See after looking at this [transexual] stuff for long enough, you become desensitized.
Like when I was first looking at TG porn, and I first saw Barbie Woods, I was like "fuck, that is such a dude it's not even funny", but now i've seen her and i'm like "oh, she's pretty good looking".
So that's something to keep in mind.

[odelay24]

Oh my images didn't work.

Oh well, the links are there

[Solitary Brother]

Ok the question is........Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

There is a large spectrum of looks among transsexuals. Ranging from some girls being absolutely beautiful to some being very unattractive.

Then you have passability. Some girls are extremely passable then others you can clock from a mile away.

Beauty and passability are two different things and dont always go hand and hand.

The question is what is more important? If your a guy what is more important to you, and if your a ts what do you strive for....Beauty or Passability?


Realness is THE most important thing.
There are beautiful girls who cant pass and are miserable.
When you pass you can blend and almost forget your a tranny.
You can acquire a beauty of sorts through surgery and whatnot but passability is genetic,innate.....

[chanel_girly]

i rather be pretty and look like a TS than look like a girl and be fugly....cuz if someone clocks you at least you have good looks lol

[TJ347]

For me, the most attractive ones just look like girls, except they happen to be TG.

I agree one hundred percent. That's why I'm not a fan of tgirls that take the surgery too far and, as I've said a million times or more now, begin to look like cartoons. Obviously, from looking at comments made on this site, lots of guys like tgirls who recapture the look of classic Marilyn Monroe or have physiques that resemble drawings of Wonder Woman that they might have beat off to as kids, but the "girl next door" look is what I like, as I'm an average guy. If I was Clark Kent, it'd be a different story though...


However, I know some people find a more masucline girl more attractive, they like to be able to tell she's a Tgirl, which I can understand.

What? There are guys who like to be able to tell a girl is a tgirl? Since you understand that, please explain, as I don't get it.


BTW, as a side note: Any guy would pic that Asian girl as being TG.

Truth.


Like when I was first looking at TG porn, and I first saw Barbie Woods, I was like "fuck, that is such a dude it's not even funny", but now i've seen her and i'm like "oh, she's pretty good looking".

I never looked at Barbie Woods and thought "that is such a dude", but I didn't think Barbie was hot by any means. And my opinion hasn't changed over time, though there's definitely less attractive girls out there. However, Barbie doesn't become "hot" just because there are hordes of girls less attractive than she is. At least not to me, that is.

[BrendaQG]

I would want to be passable and good looking. When it comes to passing I worry much about my skin. My beard is gone but not the scaring from removing it. I also could stand to loose some weight. I again right now. I do get hit on often enough so I guess I look good. However if I could drop from 165 to 145 that would be better. But if I did that I might loose the curves and roundness that makes me passable. Then I would need silocon. I'lll just cross that bridge when I come to it.

On the other hand a TS needs to look really good to get laid. I mean compared to a GG we have to really work at it. To overwhelm a mans resistance to having a woman like us.

The second woman in those two pictures is like 60 ish in that picture this is a better one.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/LynnPhotos/LynnAt20b.jpg

@ LG and TJ.

"Certified Tranny Experts" so of course you can tell. duh.

[odelay24]

For me, the most attractive ones just look like girls, except they happen to be TG.


However, I know some people find a more masucline girl more attractive, they like to be able to tell she's a Tgirl, which I can understand.

What? There are guys who like to be able to tell a girl is a tgirl? Since you understand that, please explain, as I don't get it.



Like instead of find tgirls hot because "this is a hot girl with a penis", you could see it like "this is a girl who used to be a guy".
Thats what got me into this originally. And to an extent I find that a turn on now, but I also just like the fact that it's a girl with a penis.
So with the more masculine tgirls it's so obvious it becomes like "look, I'm a guy, but I'm becoming a girl!"

[TJ347]

Like instead of find tgirls hot because "this is a hot girl with a penis", you could see it like "this is a girl who used to be a guy".
Thats what got me into this originally. And to an extent I find that a turn on now, but I also just like the fact that it's a girl with a penis.
So with the more masculine tgirls it's so obvious it becomes like "look, I'm a guy, but I'm becoming a girl!"

Yeah... See personally, I look at a tgirl and a girl the same way, and anything that reminds me while she's fully clothed that she was ever a man would necessarily interfere with me being able to see her that way, so a masculine build, "man" hands, size 14 feet, chin stubble... all that's out.

I get the novelty or whatever of "this is a girl who used to be a guy", as I think we all start out there. However, while I remain conscious of that fact throughout, I'm not "turned on" by the thought at all, and in fact it would have the opposite effect if I thought about it while in an intimate setting. Anyway, to each his own.

[odelay24]

Nah, I know what you mean hey.
I's rather a girlfriend than a boyfriend

[peggygee]

Ok the question is........Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

There is a large spectrum of looks among transsexuals. Ranging from some girls being absolutely beautiful to some being very unattractive.

Then you have passability. Some girls are extremely passable then others you can clock from a mile away.

Beauty and passability are two different things and dont always go hand and hand.

The question is what is more important? If your a guy what is more important to you, and if your a ts what do you strive for....Beauty or Passability?

The ideal would be to have both.

But if you must chose, I would say passable hands down.

As has been stated a number of times in this thread, there
are many beautiful transwomen who are easily clocked for
one reason or another. Many times because they look too
artifical, or plastic, like man made women.

I also feel it's important to be beautiful on the inside, as there
are many physically attractive women who are quite ugly because
of their personality and vice-versa


Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.




By the by, the lady in photo #2 is the lovely, brilliant, and gifted
Lynn Conway herself.

And if I was a guy, or hell as the mildly bi woman that I am, I would
prefer her to contestant #1. Most likely because she's closer to my age
and that we would have more in common, and like you pointed out she's
very passable.

Yo Lynn, holla at your girl. :wink:

[Thor57]

beauty....whatever the criteria! :lol: :P :?

[odelay24]

That was just unnecessary.

[Legend]

It's kinda hard to answer that without sounding somewhat shallow but choose for her too have a good personality and intelligence.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.

I got these pictures off of Lynn Conway's site. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

LOL I know what you mean Julie. There are tg's that look like women but looks like plain "Janes" as there are also tg's that are beautiful but one can tell she isnt GG. In the PI, most if not all TG's no matter now pretty you are people just know they're not GG's. Must be the way they act, walk, talk and or generally carry themselves. Add to that fact the huge amount of tg's they have on there. Where people see tg's on a day to day basis..the bus stops, corner streets, salons, malls etc. and this all during daytime and night time. Also asian tg's are smaller framed than their western counterpart. But comparing asian tg's with asian gg's body frame gg's are still rather smaller. And thats what gives it away. You bring an asian tg's here in the states and they all will "blend-in" nicely with the GG's here because GG's here are build bigger and differently than asian GG's. Which is a blessing I suppose.

I honestly prefer to look attractive (pretty) enough to be passable. :P It's like, you wear the wrong dress styles and your cover is blown. LOL So passing isnt sole based wether you present yourself to look "Plain Jane". It also involves the way you carry yourself and how you present yourself while out in public. Given Im asian, which meant I could get away with most things I still never was in a habit of wearing slutty outfits that would give me away. Some asian tg's dont care and liked the attention I suppose. But if you're already pretty your next move should be to blend in and not stand out like a sore thumb like screaming to people "Look at me. Im a transexual!". Then that just defeats the purpose of all your efforts trying to transition and look close to the real thing. ;)

Remember, leading a life being clocked by people have harsh effects on all of us TG's. Its a fact that alot of TG's who failed to pass yet already have done the full SRS FFF thing gets depressed and commits suicide. TG's main goal is to PASS and be pretty just like Peggiegee said in her post previously. I know alot of TG's might say, Heck I'd prefer to be beautiful and clockable..come on! Who wants to get clocked? LOL Really..? LOL Or they've completely given up hope to pass. It's that simple! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[TsVanessa69]

i rather be pretty and look like a TS than look like a girl and be fugly....cuz if someone clocks you at least you have good looks lol
Thank you!!! Whats wrong with being clocked?
True story: I was walking in an area of Chicago that is" gay". Its the middle of the day, I have no make-up on, hair pulled back in a ponytail. Car at stoplight next to me, black male driving, black female passanger. The female says to the guy," Thats a man". The guy says "no way". They drive around the block come back up, she yells out the car' You a man!!". I laugh, I didn't care. So I go on with my shopping. 45 minutes later I am coming out of one store, going into another and I see the guy from the earlier incident wlking down the steet with flowers, and i was like ok that bitch is around here somewhere, and there's gonna be some shit. She was nowhere in site. The guy comes up to me and gives me the flowers and says" I'm sorry for my girl trippin like that, but daymn, you look good". Then he ask me if he could by me lunch. We had a nice lunch, he went his way, I went mine, I gave him my number. He is no longer with her, I see him from time to time, I would have to thank her for calling me out, she pushed her man my way.
Passable varies from situation to situation. So I may be passable to some people, but to the next I'm not.
So I prefer good looks! No matter if u passed or not, you still look good!

[downblow]

Ok the question is........Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

There is a large spectrum of looks among transsexuals. Ranging from some girls being absolutely beautiful to some being very unattractive.

Then you have passability. Some girls are extremely passable then others you can clock from a mile away.

Beauty and passability are two different things and dont always go hand and hand.

The question is what is more important? If your a guy what is more important to you, and if your a ts what do you strive for....Beauty or Passability?

I'm a guy and i really don't require one more than the other. I'm attracted to both qualities. What's more important is the persons personality.
In Toronto there is an amazing t-girl whose fan base is higher than the local baseball team(the blue jays). You walk down the street with this lady and everyone knows who she is and loves her to death.
Now within the t-girl community she is regarded as not the most attractive but she id definitely passable.

Now some of the very attractive ones have very little personality and besides the guys who just want to use them for sex, they really don't have too many true friends.

So as you can see personality wins out over looks.
Of course there has to be some attraction but i'm lucky because i really haven't seen an unattractive t-girl in Toronto yet.
All the ladies in my city are HOT!

[Vicki Richter]

Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.

I got these pictures off of Lynn Conway's site. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

I could never guess that the lady on pic # 1 is a TS, no way.
An I can say that the lady on pic # 2 is as attractive as the
first one, she's just considerably older, that's all.

I think as TS, we can tell a lot easier because we are experts on the subject matter. If you met girl #1 in person, you would be able to tell for sure.

[LTR_Seeker]

i rather have beauty on both sides ugly inside women dont even register with me

[Vicki Richter]

I have always been a bigger fan of passability than attractiveness. Although I would say that sometimes both can be had.

I think my last surgery took me further from passability but added moreso on the attractiveness scale. My upper lip is now larger and more pronounced (upturned). This gives an immediate impression of falsehood in my opinion.

Alternatively, now I feel much more confident with no makeup on at all. Previously, I would slightly oversize my upper lip with lip liner. Now I don't have to do that.

In general, society treats you with more respect the greater your passability + attractiveness. Since I don't hang out in gay areas or gender ambiguous areas this is pretty critical for me.

[Willie Escalade]

Passability. Beauty can be worked on...and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[werwt22]

For guys that arent attracted to men or that arent bi passability is more important. I want a passable girl not a beautiful man if you catch my drift.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

i think you can be both-or at least achieve a good balance with surgery, styling, grooming-

but given the choice- i would much rather be beautiful and exotic and surged than just a plain jane, even if that gets me clocked a bit more

[Mr_Man]

...

[werwt22]

i think you can be both-or at least achieve a good balance with surgery, styling, grooming-

but given the choice- i would much rather be beautiful and exotic and surged than just a plain jane, even if that gets me clocked a bit more

I agree it's more about balance but having to make a choice I'd have to go with passability. That doesnt mean I'd choose a plane jane over the ultra beauty, but it does mean if her beauty is on par with another girls passability I'd take the passability.

[muhmuh]

As has been stated a number of times in this thread, there
are many beautiful transwomen who are easily clocked for
one reason or another. Many times because they look too
artifical, or plastic, like man made women.

am i really the only one here who thinks the artificial look is the opposite of beauty?

[Str8mlover4TS]

Ok the question is... Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

Beauty and passability are two different things and don't always go hand and hand.

The question is, what is more important? If your a guy, what is more important to you, and if your a TS, what do you strive for... Beauty or Passability?

The nice thing is Julie... you are BOTH! :hitit

[TJ347]

As has been stated a number of times in this thread, there
are many beautiful transwomen who are easily clocked for
one reason or another. Many times because they look too
artifical, or plastic, like man made women.

am i really the only one here who thinks the artificial look is the opposite of beauty?

No, you're not the only one, though apparently only Peggy can say so without being beset by an angry mob.

As I've said, if a girl wants to recapture the classic Marilyn Monroe look, that fine, and it's her business. As for me, I like a woman who looks like real women look, and real women don't look like classic Marilyn, or like a Jessica Rabbit drawing. Just my opinion, and relevant to no one but me.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

In general, society treats you with more respect the greater your passability + attractiveness.

Quote for TRUTH! :P

I dont see why a girl cant aspire for both?!? :?


Passability is the acceptance by the general population as a whole, a much larger and wider spectrum of people.

Co-sign!

~Kisses.

HTG

[odelay24]

As has been stated a number of times in this thread, there
are many beautiful transwomen who are easily clocked for
one reason or another. Many times because they look too
artifical, or plastic, like man made women.

See, if you asked me, I'd say they weren't beautiful to begin with. It's all based on personal preference really.
Because some guys like "shemales" and some guys like just girls with penises, if you get me.

[tsntx]

imo the 2 correlate i have yet to see an unattractive passable tg.

then go to the link that shows pics of succesful transwomen... a lot are passable... and the ones that are... arent very pretty.

[TrueBeauty TS]

I think the best combination is to have both. I think being a beautiful, passible TS with a great personality is the ideal. :claps



.

[crayons]

I think passability is more important, because you have hot men that just won't translate to a hot woman.

[crayons]

As has been stated a number of times in this thread, there
are many beautiful transwomen who are easily clocked for
one reason or another. Many times because they look too
artifical, or plastic, like man made women.


Yes, but you can't stress "many" enough, it's like almost all. Most transwomen and their admirers have a very different perception of what sexy is. It's like the more artificial you look- the better.

[dunkiex]

Beauty or passability? I hate to say this, but I do not think it is either of them. The beauty or sexiness or general attitude of any woman comes from within. I date a transsexual now. She is 46 now. Does she have the physical beauty of her early years? no But the way she carries herself, feels, and behaves is so beautiful and so feminine. She is more female than many females. So...there is my input.

[peggygee]

I'd rather be beautiful than passable. I have no shame in who I am. To get to that level of "beautiful" means that I've worked hard to achieve that image. Who I am has provided that pride and respect in self to want to work hard.

What exactly does passable get you over being beautiful anyway? We live in a shallow society.
Survival of the HOTTEST!

In an often times cruel and unfair world, the inability
to pass can potentially be life threatening.

There is also the societal predjudices, and discrimination
that can manifest itself in economic, occupational,
and inter-personal ways.

Thus, I would re-iterate my previous assertion that it
is very important to be able to blend into mainstream
society.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I think the best combination is to have both. I think being a beautiful, passible TS with a great personality is the ideal. :claps



.

I agree with you Truebeauty TS. I think it's a give and take type of deal. If a girl looks decent enough (pretty) and can decently pass..with her great personality, it could out weigh all her other flaws and command acceptance by society. Afterall, arent TS'es as a whole wanted acceptance, No?

So even if one is drop "dead georgeous" but cannot pass (not because she doesnt look beautiful or feminine mind you) she is then stuck with the societal stigma of being a "transexual" and being a taboo. But like the feedbacks of different TS'es on here the views of preference between being beautiful or passable varies. Some opt to pass while others prefer to be beautiful. Though, to deny the fact that someday you'd want to lead a semi normal life (start a family etc.) and blend in with the gender you tried so hard to re-align your innerself with your outerself is hypocritical!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexual

Most transsexual men and women desire to establish a permanent social role as a member of the gender with which they identify. Many transsexual people also desire various types of medical alterations to their bodies. These physical alterations are collectively referred to as sex reassignment therapy and often include hormones and sex reassignment surgery. The entire process of switching from one physical and social gender presentation to the other is often referred to as transition, and usually takes several years. The transition process can be highly traumatic and may involve the person being off work for a long period of time.

After transsexual men and women are living full-time as members of their target gender, they may wish to blend in with other members of their new sex, and will avoid revealing their past. They do this believing that it will provide greater peace and security on the other side of a stressful and potentially dangerous transition, and/or because they wish to be seen only as members of their target sex, not as transsexuals.


~Kisses.

HTG

[NYTSJulie]

Ok the question is... Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

Beauty and passability are two different things and don't always go hand and hand.

The question is, what is more important? If your a guy, what is more important to you, and if your a TS, what do you strive for... Beauty or Passability?

The nice thing is Julie... you are BOTH! :hitit

kisses

[NYTSJulie]

I say PASSABLE is more important and if you are attractive also then that is just a bonus.

Yes some girls look great but if you do not pass you can only go so far in this world. You might gain stature or notoriety in the transsexual community, but in normal society you will be looked at in a poor light, NO MATTER how good you look.

I also think its crazy when some girls say "I dont care of they clock me". It sounds almost as bad as the girls who say "women have facial hair also".

[odelay24]

As has been stated a number of times in this thread, there
are many beautiful transwomen who are easily clocked for
one reason or another. Many times because they look too
artifical, or plastic, like man made women.


Yes, but you can't stress "many" enough, it's like almost all. Most transwomen and their admirers have a very different perception of what sexy is. It's like the more artificial you look- the better.

Well some people think that. But I certainly don't. I would say it was most that like the artificial look. I'd think it was about 50/50

[Nooksack]

I'd go with beauty over passability. If you're hot, then you're hot. Nothing is going to take that away from you and, in many cases, people will probably overlook the fact that they can see a bit of an adam's apple or that her hands and/or feet seem a bit mannish. In my experiences, most beautiful transgendered ladies are pretty damn passable, too.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

I say PASSABLE is more important and if you are attractive also then that is just a bonus.

Yes some girls look great but if you do not pass you can only go so far in this world. You might gain stature or notoriety in the transsexual community, but in normal society you will be looked at in a poor light, NO MATTER how good you look.

I also think its crazy when some girls say "I dont care of they clock me". It sounds almost as bad as the girls who say "women have facial hair also".

I don't think it's crazy when girls say if they do not care if thye get clocked. Some girls will always get clocked because of height, features, etc- it just happens. In fact, ALL transsexuals get clocked at one time or another.

And those who say they do not- are lying.

I live my life as I am. I know some girls who are SO paranoid of getting clocked that they live in a constant anxiety state- always looking around them, if someone look at they they freak out cause they think they got clocked, or talk in fake minnie mouse voices all day and sound ridiculous.

Buttom line is you have to work andmake the best of what you got.

Yes it is always uncomfortable to get clocked, especially if they are very rude, but it's part of this life. So you just have to deal with it and go on.

I pretty much go everywhere and people look at me yes- but there is a lot to look at so I don't care. In the seven years of living in NYC I have only had one really horrid clocking incident- other than that it's mostly sexual attention.

I think you at one point in life just have to be comfortable with the fact that you are a ts and know that someone, somewhere may clock you- another ts, a gay guy- it just happens.

A ts woman who does not pass clearly has more to deal with then a woman who does- she has to face that everyday. But this is the life we lead and choose and we must learn ultimately to accept who we are.

You have t have the courage to live and look as you please- wether you wear a clown suit down the street or a burqa- it'a just about being comfortable with you.

It's also being aware of the 'consequences' of the choices you make with your appearance or dress. I can't expect to have a 36DDD cup size and walk down the street with no one looking at me. That would just be dillusional.

[hondarobot]

The whole "clockability" issue is, of course, something most people simply can't understand, and not always for the same reasons. I know I don't really understand it that well.

I'm pretty sure I have had far more "real world" interaction with TS girls then nearly any other guy on this forum just because of where I work. For me, that becomes a disadvantage at times because I honestly don't find anything unusual about transgender girls at all. Some of the more serious aspects escape me because I suppose I just take certain things for granted.

I think a lot of other guys don't understand certain things because they have never really been exposed to TS, and only know the "porn star" aspect.

It's all very complicated at times.

:?

[BlackAdder]

You look great Leora...Never saw your pics before but i can see why people assume your female so quickly.

[peggygee]

"Passing"



http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/stealthcurious.jpg

I would argue that it is the heartfelt desire of most transsexual women to be accepted as female without question or suspicion. However, very few women will ever be able to achieve this most elusive of goals. The concept of "passing" is fraught with all sorts of political implications, and even the term, though commonly used, has a problematic history and questionable future for our community. Embracing the idea of "passing" as a word and concept puts limits on us mentally, I feel, and hinders our ability to gain acceptance and self-respect. I try to avoid using this term, preferring "accepted as female" or possibly "blending" instead of "passing," and "visibly gender variant" instead of "non-passing."

Passing implies a binary of pass or fail. It also implies a deception, as if you're passing yourself off for something you are not. Thinking of ourselves this way is very unhealthy. We are female. We are transsexual women. We must embrace the fact that we are women, as well as the fact that we are transsexual. To think you are inferior to non-TS women is probably the most damaging thing you can think about yourself. We are told this at every turn by society, to the point that some transsexual women believe it, but there will be a day where this is as repugnant to people as thinking that men are superior to women or whites are superior to other races. Sadly, that day is a long way off.

Finally, the idea of "passing" puts the power of determining the validity of our identities in the hands of others. Those who want to deny us our validity should not be given that much power.

Now, having said that, being accepted as female will make a major difference in the quality of your life. This is where it gets complicated, and where theory meets practice. Identity does not exist in a vacuum. Unless you are delusional, if others do not agree with how you identify yourself, it can cause a real strain on your self-identity and self-acceptance.

In the same way that gays who can "act straight" or blacks who can "act white" are able to be accepted by the rest of society more easily, TS women who can be unquestioningly feminine will likely face less harassment, discrimination, and violence. They will also have an easier time finding work, friends and lovers. In the same way that a straight-acting gay person has the choice of when to come out to someone, we have the choice of when to come out if we are accepted as female. This is extremely empowering, believe me. If you are accepted as female and decide to come out to someone about your transsexualism or don't think of it as a shameful secret, you will be immune to attempts by others to hurt you with words and actions meant to make you feel like you're less than female.

Now, on to another important point: Being accepted as female and being beautiful are not the same thing. You might have one, or the other, or both, or neither. Attractiveness has its own set of advantages (and disadvantages), but your best hope for an easy transition is to fall within the parameters of what society deems to be "female." I know several overweight, unattractive TS women who are more accepted as female than the most gorgeous showgirl. These women work, live and date in the regular world and are not relegated to the subculture the showgirls I know inhabit. Don't get me wrong-- the shows and club scene can be fun, but it's not something that lasts long. The longer you're in, the worse it gets. Money and partying might be fun for a while, but it doesn't look good on a resume at 35, when you've got half your life to go, and the club scene spits you out. I've seen that. It's not pretty.

It can be really hard to wait, but the more preparation you do before going full-time, the better you'll do at the moment of truth.

Being accepted as female and being beautiful: a matter of luck, not superiority

There's a point at which I place my own writings in the movement for TG rights, a movement that's emanating from several places at once. My info is something akin to the self-help books that emerged after the first wave of feminism-- these awful "Dress for Success" type books that that were required reading for female executives making inroads into corporate culture in the 1980's. They told you how to dress as a totally asexual drone that mimicked male office attire: frumpy navy blue suits with sensible shoes. Unfortunately, this formula for success was actually necessary at the time and still is to some extent.

Anyway, those books were "elitist" in the sense that they only helped mostly white, mostly middle-class, mostly college-educated women. Those women simply lucked into being among the privileged few who had a chance of benefiting from corporate capitalism at the time.

The same is true for anyone who is accepted as women, and especially attractive women. You are not better. You're just lucky.

As with any civil rights movement, some TG people will have to wait to get the acceptance currently enjoyed by those who can assimilate. Does that suck? Yes. But the sad truth is this: right now, it is more likely that someone who can assimilate into mainstream society will be able to enjoy the privileges of mainstream society. Does that make them better? No. Just luckier. Right place, right time

[Dkg]

Ok the question is........Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

There is a large spectrum of looks among transsexuals. Ranging from some girls being absolutely beautiful to some being very unattractive.

Then you have passability. Some girls are extremely passable then others you can clock from a mile away.

Beauty and passability are two different things and dont always go hand and hand.

The question is what is more important? If your a guy what is more important to you, and if your a ts what do you strive for....Beauty or Passability?

I think it's pretty obvious that if you're beautiful then you're also passable, so why the heck would I choose passable over beauty?

[RangeHova]

i have yet to see an unattractive passable tg.

I used to think that way but the deeper that I got into the life I found that many of the most passable girls are not attractive at all. I think the absolutely most passable girls that i have seen have been relative unattractive girls.

It can be easier to go from a male to a ho hum, less than gorgeous female than it is to be a smoking hot babe. So many things have to be in place to be beautiful, that goes for anyone, it is even harder for a TS.

Which would I choose? Passablity has it pluses of course and so does beauty. For me, I am confident enough in my own skin that it is more about what I think about the woman than what others around me think.

I think that guys that like TS women sometimes confuse the two. If a girl is hot to us we automatically say that she is passable. While the world around us may see her as an attractive person that is male. If I were writing out the perfect TS women, I would say that her passing would be great but if she were attractive enough to me then I could deal with her not being as passable.

It is a slippery slope. If she were leass passable then she would have to in turn be more attractive to me.

[Dkg]

If a girl is hot to us we automatically say that she is passable. While the world around us may see her as an attractive person that is male. If I were writing out the perfect TS women, I would say that her passing would be great but if she were attractive enough to me then I could deal with her not being as passable.

Good point, but when asking whether you would pick one over the other then why would you (in general) go for just passable? In a way they do go hand in hand, and in a way they don't.

there are plenty of average looking, semi attractive, passable TS women but there are also plenty of above average looking, very beautiful passable TS women (a lot of them ca be found here on this board), and I've never heard of an attractive, beautiful, non passable TS woman. so in that regard why would anyone choose passability over beauty?

btw, I completely get what you were saying and actually agree, but when simplifying it in the phrase of "which is better A or B", (in this case) there is a clear and obvious advantage one as over the other.

[BrendaQG]

What Dkg says makes allot of sense.

I can't imagine how a TS can be "beautiful" and a non passable gorilla in a dress at the same time.

I can see how a TS can be so surgically altered as to attract attention for having been altered. But I don't think that counts as "not passing".

[tsntx]

bc even if you look like a supermodel or a pornstar or a super hot female... if a little kid, or a guy, or a girl or all 3 at once goes "thats a man"

you have been clocked

and thus you did not pass

do not pass go

do not collect $200

[BlackAdder]

"bc even if you look like a supermodel or a pornstar or a super hot female"

Mutually exclusive if your that easily clockable.

[tsntx]

"bc even if you look like a supermodel or a pornstar or a super hot female"

Mutually exclusive if your that easily clockable.

i have yet to meet a girl that passes 100% of the time

the question is if you pass 1 outta 10 x are you considered passable?

[Dkg]

"bc even if you look like a supermodel or a pornstar or a super hot female"

Mutually exclusive if your that easily clockable.

i have yet to meet a girl that passes 100% of the time

the question is if you pass 1 outta 10 x are you considered passable?

exactly what I was just about to say, b/c I also highly doubt there is any woman out there that has not been clocked once, no matter how beautiful/hot she may be.

Is it really 1 out of 10? who makes these rules. I think you're going into uncharted territories....then again maybe you know something I don't.

[BlackAdder]

1 out of 10? No, your not passable. You had a lucky break

9 out of 10? Yes, your passable. You had an unlucky break, but your likely to be forgiven even if something...strange...is detected.

Ive seen some girls from this site that, barring what they *may or may not* sound like in person, could pass 100% of the time in normal everyday situations by average people.

[BrendaQG]

True. But chances are if you look like a superhot female, supermodel or pop star,...that you pass most of the time.

Where as if you are really "un-passable" then you never pass and would never look like a superhot female, supermodel or anything.

This is a TS who looks like a supermodel
http://antijen.org/Articles/RC1_files/rclose2.jpg

I think this thread needs a dose of reality. This is un passable. I can't think of anyone who is both of those things.

[werwt22]

I think theres a lot on confusion honestly. I think a lot of guys are talking about what they prefer in general and the rest are talking about LTR wise. In general I'd go for beauty or body, but LTR I'd go passability. Theres a lot of GG's I'd get with I see at the grocery store, mall, or at the bar but when it comes to LTR the same standards dont apply IMO.

[Ironhead]

At the risk of sounding naive, I say beauty because I want an appealing woman and already know her secret so passability is of little concern to me. It's my job to make her feel comfortable and loved when the rest of the world is cruel and unaccepting and I think I could shoulder that load, but even with having those good intentions I have to admit to a certain amount of shallowness in what I want to see when I look into her eyes.

[BlackAdder]

I have the higher standard all of the time....When i look at a girl and cant picture it going more then once in the sack well....Id really rather not bother at all.

[tsntx]

True. But chances are if you look like a superhot female, supermodel or pop star,...that you pass most of the time.

Where as if you are really "un-passable" then you never pass and would never look like a superhot female, supermodel or anything.

This is a TS who looks like a supermodel
http://antijen.org/Articles/RC1_files/rclose2.jpg

I think this thread needs a dose of reality. This is un passable. I can't think of anyone who is both of those things.


looking good causes ppl to look at you... then they try to pick you apart... its the same thing we do to celebrities... we tear down what we build up.


and i was asking at which point is the line drawn that says your passable or not... if you get clocked 1 time you are not passable to someone.

[Dkg]

True. But chances are if you look like a superhot female, supermodel or pop star,...that you pass most of the time.


True, but it's also kind like what Jen said. When you stand out too much then there's bound to be someone who's waiting to pick you apart and "out" yyou, or clock you or whatever. Its the slightly above average looking passable TS women that probably have it te easiest.

The 1st girl you posted would probably fall in that case. Good looking but not "too" good looking, and the second "girl" you posted, well.....yeah.

[tsntx]

lol the first girl to you looks average????

she looks like cindy crawford... if shes 5'11 like a real supermodel ppl will tear her to shreds until shes as manly looking to them as a lumberjack

[Dkg]

lol the first girl to you looks average????

she looks like cindy crawford... if shes 5'11 like a real supermodel ppl will tear her to shreds until shes as manly looking to them as a lumberjack

well, I said slightly above average. Shes cute and tall yeah but, I dunno, I just don't see her as the "super model" type. you sound as if you have had some kind of personal experiences related to this....( not necessarily with yourself)

[tsntx]

lol the first girl to you looks average????

she looks like cindy crawford... if shes 5'11 like a real supermodel ppl will tear her to shreds until shes as manly looking to them as a lumberjack

well, I said slightly above average. Shes cute and tall yeah but, I dunno, I just don't see her as the "super model" type. you sound as if you have had some kind of personal experiences related to this....( not necessarily with yourself)

yeah of course i have... and im sure EVERY other girl here has too... anyone to say otherwise is :lies

i know what i look like

im proud of who i am

i know where i came from

if you clock me you clock me you dont get a cookie. if i pass i pass ive come to deal w/ the facts that ppl will clock me .... i dont get clocked daily but im not going to lie and say it doesnt suck to get clocked but if it really bothered me i could do things that would greatly improve my chances of going from passing 7 outta 10 times to passing 9 outta 10 times...

i pass when i need to and thats all i need.

[Super_dave]

Is it just me or is someone who has an interest in TS not more likely to 'clock' a girl than someone who knows nothing of the world of ts's?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Is it just me or is someone who has an interest in TS not more likely to 'clock' a girl than someone who knows nothing of the world of ts's? I totally agree with this. You KNOW because you know WHAT to look for. Most people don't know what to look for.

[BrendaQG]

lol the first girl to you looks average????

she looks like cindy crawford... if shes 5'11 like a real supermodel ppl will tear her to shreds until shes as manly looking to them as a lumberjack

well, I said slightly above average. Shes cute and tall yeah but, I dunno, I just don't see her as the "super model" type. you sound as if you have had some kind of personal experiences related to this....( not necessarily with yourself)

The First girl is the fabulous Roberta Close (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oMbYRbMLXM). The link is to YouTube videos of her. She was as close as any TS comes to being a super model.

The second pic was posted here a long time ago. The person in the picture put it on the web saying "how estrogen alone had made her passable." bwahahahahaha!

[tsntx]

Is it just me or is someone who has an interest in TS not more likely to 'clock' a girl than someone who knows nothing of the world of ts's?

thats a fair assumption in the idea that someone may be "looking" for something... but i doubt every 5yr old kid that has clocked me was looking to upgrade his pacifier for some she-cock.


refer to the scene in transamerica where "bri" is eating at the diner minding her own biz and noone is paying ANY attn to her... bc shes not pretty. shes just avg middle aged woman looking. but yet the 5yr old clocks her. same thing.

[tsntx]

Is it just me or is someone who has an interest in TS not more likely to 'clock' a girl than someone who knows nothing of the world of ts's? I totally agree with this. You KNOW because you know WHAT to look for. Most people don't know what to look for.

...

ppl know what things are masculine and what things are feminine... when youre pretty they take notice... when they feel youre competition, or better looking then they are they start taking away the parts that look good to find your flaws... when your a ts... the things they take away are the fem features that make you attractive and appear female... you take those away from any ts and shes gonna look like a he even to a cowboy in small town w/ no tv or internet access.

[NYTSJulie]

I say PASSABLE is more important and if you are attractive also then that is just a bonus.

Yes some girls look great but if you do not pass you can only go so far in this world. You might gain stature or notoriety in the transsexual community, but in normal society you will be looked at in a poor light, NO MATTER how good you look.

I also think its crazy when some girls say "I dont care of they clock me". It sounds almost as bad as the girls who say "women have facial hair also".

I don't think it's crazy when girls say if they do not care if they get clocked. Some girls will always get clocked because of height, features, etc- it just happens. In fact, ALL transsexuals get clocked at one time or another.

And those who say they do not- are lying.

I live my life as I am. I know some girls who are SO paranoid of getting clocked that they live in a constant anxiety state- always looking around them, if someone look at they they freak out cause they think they got clocked, or talk in fake minnie mouse voices all day and sound ridiculous.

Buttom line is you have to work andmake the best of what you got.

Yes it is always uncomfortable to get clocked, especially if they are very rude, but it's part of this life. So you just have to deal with it and go on.

I pretty much go everywhere and people look at me yes- but there is a lot to look at so I don't care. In the seven years of living in NYC I have only had one really horrid clocking incident- other than that it's mostly sexual attention.

I think you at one point in life just have to be comfortable with the fact that you are a ts and know that someone, somewhere may clock you- another ts, a gay guy- it just happens.

A ts woman who does not pass clearly has more to deal with then a woman who does- she has to face that everyday. But this is the life we lead and choose and we must learn ultimately to accept who we are.

You have t have the courage to live and look as you please- wether you wear a clown suit down the street or a burqa- it'a just about being comfortable with you.

It's also being aware of the 'consequences' of the choices you make with your appearance or dress. I can't expect to have a 36DDD cup size and walk down the street with no one looking at me. That would just be dillusional.

Well put Allanah,

I do agree that every girls gets clocked sometimes, even the most passable. I dont think there is such a thing as 100 percent passable. But there is a big difference in someone who gets clocked 1 out of 10 times or someone who gets clocked once a blue moon.

I do still think that every girl cares if she gets clocked. Some have excepted it but I think they still care, and for someone to say they dont care is bs.

I do agree that everyone should strive to be the best they can be. That each and every girl should work hard and do the things in order to have a successful transition. The ones who have done little and look like bricks who say "I dont care if I pass", they are the ones I have issue with. I think its a cop out, they are just too lazy to put forth any effort to make themselves as passable as they can be.

Also everyone puts body size as a big passing factor and I disagree. Look at Caroline Cossey who is 6', my personal friend Leslie Townsend who is 5'11 or Aleshia Brevard who is 6', and there are many VERY passable tall transsexuals. I am 5'10 and 1/2 with bigger hands and feet and am far from a size 2 lol, and I pass very well. I think face is the number one passing factor, that combined with other feminine attributes. Although if a girl is 5'3 and doesn't have a very passable face she still might pass based on her size.

Kisses,
Julie

[Super_dave]

Is it just me or is someone who has an interest in TS not more likely to 'clock' a girl than someone who knows nothing of the world of ts's?

thats a fair assumption in the idea that someone may be "looking" for something... but i doubt every 5yr old kid that has clocked me was looking to upgrade his pacifier for some she-cock.

You've really been clocked by kids? Wow, thta's pretty amazing. I honestly figured the only person who could 'clock' YOU would be someone who knew what they were looking for. That a kid could do that is wild. How did that play out, if you don't mind my asking?

[tsntx]

i missed the whole allanah post i guess... but wow... well written and well said... kudos... totally agree... and agree w/ what julie just said as well... loves yall -j

[MrsKellyPierce]

I say PASSABLE is more important and if you are attractive also then that is just a bonus.

Yes some girls look great but if you do not pass you can only go so far in this world. You might gain stature or notoriety in the transsexual community, but in normal society you will be looked at in a poor light, NO MATTER how good you look.

I also think its crazy when some girls say "I dont care of they clock me". It sounds almost as bad as the girls who say "women have facial hair also".

I don't think it's crazy when girls say if they do not care if they get clocked. Some girls will always get clocked because of height, features, etc- it just happens. In fact, ALL transsexuals get clocked at one time or another.

And those who say they do not- are lying.

I live my life as I am. I know some girls who are SO paranoid of getting clocked that they live in a constant anxiety state- always looking around them, if someone look at they they freak out cause they think they got clocked, or talk in fake minnie mouse voices all day and sound ridiculous.

Buttom line is you have to work andmake the best of what you got.

Yes it is always uncomfortable to get clocked, especially if they are very rude, but it's part of this life. So you just have to deal with it and go on.

I pretty much go everywhere and people look at me yes- but there is a lot to look at so I don't care. In the seven years of living in NYC I have only had one really horrid clocking incident- other than that it's mostly sexual attention.

I think you at one point in life just have to be comfortable with the fact that you are a ts and know that someone, somewhere may clock you- another ts, a gay guy- it just happens.

A ts woman who does not pass clearly has more to deal with then a woman who does- she has to face that everyday. But this is the life we lead and choose and we must learn ultimately to accept who we are.

You have t have the courage to live and look as you please- wether you wear a clown suit down the street or a burqa- it'a just about being comfortable with you.

It's also being aware of the 'consequences' of the choices you make with your appearance or dress. I can't expect to have a 36DDD cup size and walk down the street with no one looking at me. That would just be dillusional.

Well put Allanah,

I do agree that every girls gets clocked sometimes, even the most passable. I dont think there is such a thing as 100 percent passable. But there is a big difference in someone who gets clocked 1 out of 10 times or someone who gets clocked once a blue moon.

I do still think that every girl cares if she gets clocked. Some have excepted it but I think they still care, and for someone to say they dont care is bs.

I do agree that everyone should strive to be the best they can be. That each and every girl should work hard and do the things in order to have a successful transition. The ones who have done little and look like bricks who say "I dont care if I pass", they are the ones I have issue with. I think its a cop out, they are just too lazy to put forth any effort to make themselves as passable as they can be.

Also everyone puts body size as a big passing factor and I disagree. Look at Caroline Cossey who is 6', my personal friend Leslie Townsend who is 5'11 or Aleshia Brevard who is 6', and there are many VERY passable tall transsexuals. I am 5'10 and 1/2 with bigger hands and feet and am far from a size 2 lol, and I pass very well. I think face is the number one passing factor, that combined with other feminine attributes. Although if a girl is 5'3 and doesn't have a very passable face she still might pass based on her size.

Kisses,
Julie Julie not to battle with you. But I think a successful transition, should be up to the girl. Not what you or anyone else thinks. If they are happy why throw stones at them?

[tsntx]

Is it just me or is someone who has an interest in TS not more likely to 'clock' a girl than someone who knows nothing of the world of ts's?

thats a fair assumption in the idea that someone may be "looking" for something... but i doubt every 5yr old kid that has clocked me was looking to upgrade his pacifier for some she-cock.

You've really been clocked by kids? Wow, thta's pretty amazing. I honestly figured the only person who could 'clock' YOU would be someone who knew what they were looking for. That a kid could do that is wild. How did that play out, if you don't mind my asking?

its happened on more then one occassion... one time the parent corrected the kid and it ended another time after a long day of work i was doing a womans makeup before she was to go have some wedding pictures taken and was beyond the care to cloak my voice... her lil kid said over and over "mommy that woman sounds like a man" over and over... pulling on her skirt, getting louder and louder and causing more ppl to look in my direction... i stopped doing her makeup and gave her a look like maybe she should step in here... she just rolled her eyes and couldnt be bothered... i went back to doing her makeup as the girl gave the kid a lollipop to shut him up... when the mom looked in the mirror she burst in to tears... she was a fair skinned red head and i painted her in black-face w/ blue eyeshadow and red lips.... i was released from shift after that but i wasnt let go or repremanded.

[NYTSJulie]

I say PASSABLE is more important and if you are attractive also then that is just a bonus.

Yes some girls look great but if you do not pass you can only go so far in this world. You might gain stature or notoriety in the transsexual community, but in normal society you will be looked at in a poor light, NO MATTER how good you look.

I also think its crazy when some girls say "I dont care of they clock me". It sounds almost as bad as the girls who say "women have facial hair also".

I don't think it's crazy when girls say if they do not care if they get clocked. Some girls will always get clocked because of height, features, etc- it just happens. In fact, ALL transsexuals get clocked at one time or another.

And those who say they do not- are lying.

I live my life as I am. I know some girls who are SO paranoid of getting clocked that they live in a constant anxiety state- always looking around them, if someone look at they they freak out cause they think they got clocked, or talk in fake minnie mouse voices all day and sound ridiculous.

Buttom line is you have to work andmake the best of what you got.

Yes it is always uncomfortable to get clocked, especially if they are very rude, but it's part of this life. So you just have to deal with it and go on.

I pretty much go everywhere and people look at me yes- but there is a lot to look at so I don't care. In the seven years of living in NYC I have only had one really horrid clocking incident- other than that it's mostly sexual attention.

I think you at one point in life just have to be comfortable with the fact that you are a ts and know that someone, somewhere may clock you- another ts, a gay guy- it just happens.

A ts woman who does not pass clearly has more to deal with then a woman who does- she has to face that everyday. But this is the life we lead and choose and we must learn ultimately to accept who we are.

You have t have the courage to live and look as you please- wether you wear a clown suit down the street or a burqa- it'a just about being comfortable with you.

It's also being aware of the 'consequences' of the choices you make with your appearance or dress. I can't expect to have a 36DDD cup size and walk down the street with no one looking at me. That would just be dillusional.

Well put Allanah,

I do agree that every girls gets clocked sometimes, even the most passable. I dont think there is such a thing as 100 percent passable. But there is a big difference in someone who gets clocked 1 out of 10 times or someone who gets clocked once a blue moon.

I do still think that every girl cares if she gets clocked. Some have excepted it but I think they still care, and for someone to say they dont care is bs.

I do agree that everyone should strive to be the best they can be. That each and every girl should work hard and do the things in order to have a successful transition. The ones who have done little and look like bricks who say "I dont care if I pass", they are the ones I have issue with. I think its a cop out, they are just too lazy to put forth any effort to make themselves as passable as they can be.

Also everyone puts body size as a big passing factor and I disagree. Look at Caroline Cossey who is 6', my personal friend Leslie Townsend who is 5'11 or Aleshia Brevard who is 6', and there are many VERY passable tall transsexuals. I am 5'10 and 1/2 with bigger hands and feet and am far from a size 2 lol, and I pass very well. I think face is the number one passing factor, that combined with other feminine attributes. Although if a girl is 5'3 and doesn't have a very passable face she still might pass based on her size.

Kisses,
Julie Julie not to battle with you. But I think a successful transition, should be up to the girl. Not what you or anyone else thinks. If they are happy why throw stones at them?

Kelly,
Its not a stone throwing thing at all, and if you take it that way I am sorry. It is a discussion and people exchanging each others view points. I dont judge I just have opinions, and I also love to hear other people thoughts as well. Its what makes conversations interesting and worth while, lol. Its like talking about politics, everyone has different points of view, none being more valid then the other.

kisses,
Julie

[Super_dave]

its happened on more then one occassion... one time the parent corrected the kid and it ended another time after a long day of work i was doing a womans makeup before she was to go have some wedding pictures taken and was beyond the care to cloak my voice... her lil kid said over and over "mommy that woman sounds like a man" over and over... pulling on her skirt, getting louder and louder and causing more ppl to look in my direction... i stopped doing her makeup and gave her a look like maybe she should step in here... she just rolled her eyes and couldnt be bothered... i went back to doing her makeup as the girl gave the kid a lollipop to shut him up... when the mom looked in the mirror she burst in to tears... she was a fair skinned red head and i painted her in black-face w/ blue eyeshadow and red lips.... i was released from shift after that but i wasnt let go or repremanded.

Bwahahahahahahahah, wow, you certainly have balls, no pun intended.

Come to think of it, I hadn't thought of the voice aspect, I couldn't grasp how some kid could look at you and think 'man'...

[NYTSJulie]

The thing with kids is..........they are children and dont know what tact is, they say what they think or what ever comes to their little minds.

Just like if they saw someone is a wheel chair, the parent can see this person is in a chair also but wont say anything, but the kid might ask "whats wrong with him".

[tsntx]

its happened on more then one occassion... one time the parent corrected the kid and it ended another time after a long day of work i was doing a womans makeup before she was to go have some wedding pictures taken and was beyond the care to cloak my voice... her lil kid said over and over "mommy that woman sounds like a man" over and over... pulling on her skirt, getting louder and louder and causing more ppl to look in my direction... i stopped doing her makeup and gave her a look like maybe she should step in here... she just rolled her eyes and couldnt be bothered... i went back to doing her makeup as the girl gave the kid a lollipop to shut him up... when the mom looked in the mirror she burst in to tears... she was a fair skinned red head and i painted her in black-face w/ blue eyeshadow and red lips.... i was released from shift after that but i wasnt let go or repremanded.

Bwahahahahahahahah, wow, you certainly have balls, no pun intended.

Come to think of it, I hadn't thought of the voice aspect, I couldn't grasp how some kid could look at you and think 'man'...

at $25+ /hr i have earned the right to use those balls... im more of an asset to the company im working for then a liability and loosing me over some bs would be a bigger loss to them then to me.

[Super_dave]

hey, I'm not arguing with ya... I was applauding the way you got even. I think that's hilarious

[mustang]

Is it just me or is someone who has an interest in TS not more likely to 'clock' a girl than someone who knows nothing of the world of ts's?

thats a fair assumption in the idea that someone may be "looking" for something... but i doubt every 5yr old kid that has clocked me was looking to upgrade his pacifier for some she-cock.

You've really been clocked by kids? Wow, thta's pretty amazing. I honestly figured the only person who could 'clock' YOU would be someone who knew what they were looking for. That a kid could do that is wild. How did that play out, if you don't mind my asking?

its happened on more then one occassion... one time the parent corrected the kid and it ended another time after a long day of work i was doing a womans makeup before she was to go have some wedding pictures taken and was beyond the care to cloak my voice... her lil kid said over and over "mommy that woman sounds like a man" over and over... pulling on her skirt, getting louder and louder and causing more ppl to look in my direction... i stopped doing her makeup and gave her a look like maybe she should step in here... she just rolled her eyes and couldnt be bothered... i went back to doing her makeup as the girl gave the kid a lollipop to shut him up... when the mom looked in the mirror she burst in to tears... she was a fair skinned red head and i painted her in black-face w/ blue eyeshadow and red lips.... i was released from shift after that but i wasnt let go or repremanded.


That's some funny S@#T!! JJ you certainly have a bit of a nasty streak to you....lol. Parents do need to get a handle on their kids though. Everytime I see something like that it just solidifies my decision not to have kids!

[tsntx]

Everytime I see something like that it just solidifies my decision not to have kids!

why? do you think you wouldnt be a good parent? bc its not the kids fault he has shitty parents w/ no parenting skills.

children see. children do.
make your influence a positive one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6JfHB2cruJU

[mustang]

Everytime I see something like that it just solidifies my decision not to have kids!

why? do you think you wouldnt be a good parent? bc its not the kids fault he has shitty parents w/ no parenting skills.

children see. children do.
make your influence a positive one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6JfHB2cruJU





I think I probably would make a good parent.My issue is exactly what you said....Children see,Children do. They also do what they see their peers try to do. So even though it's not that kids fault that their parents are the way they are........that kid is gonna grow up to be an ass.Good luck trying to guide your child when that is what they are exposed to all day.I have five younger brothers. My mom and dad are a no nonsense duo. Non of us have gotten in any trouble thus far and all of us have gone to school.That being said...My dad is pulling his hair out with my little brother.He goes to his buddies houses and sees them cursing at their parents and wants to come home with that attitude that "jimmy" does it.I see my dad at wits end and that is hard to do to my father.Kids are different than when you and I were raised. The other day I was in a restaurant and saw two kids roller skating around the dining room. They were zipping around with those roller shoes kids wear and their parents were just sitting there in the booth talking. Servers were coming out of the kitchen with huge trays of food and trying to avoid from a huge accident. I see that stuff more and more every day and I ask myself......do I really wanna try to fight against that with my kid??? So far.....the answer is no.

[The Truth]

The thing with kids is..........they are children and dont know what tact is, they say what they think or what ever comes to their little minds.

Just like if they saw someone is a wheel chair, the parent can see this person is in a chair also but wont say anything, but the kid might ask "whats wrong with him".

I totally agree with Julie. I think TGs get clocked often by kids and adults. The difference is that adults know better and show respect, discresion or prudence not to say anything. Kids on the other hand are just completely honest and say whatever they are thinking without meaning any harm (most of the time). So they would let you know you have a bugger hanging out your nose, your fly is open, you sound or look like a dude, etc.

[werwt22]

Everytime I see something like that it just solidifies my decision not to have kids!

why? do you think you wouldnt be a good parent? bc its not the kids fault he has shitty parents w/ no parenting skills.

children see. children do.
make your influence a positive one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6JfHB2cruJU





I think I probably would make a good parent.My issue is exactly what you said....Children see,Children do. They also do what they see their peers try to do. So even though it's not that kids fault that their parents are the way they are........that kid is gonna grow up to be an ass.Good luck trying to guide your child when that is what they are exposed to all day.I have five younger brothers. My mom and dad are a no nonsense duo. Non of us have gotten in any trouble thus far and all of us have gone to school.That being said...My dad is pulling his hair out with my little brother.He goes to his buddies houses and sees them cursing at their parents and wants to come home with that attitude that "jimmy" does it.I see my dad at wits end and that is hard to do to my father.Kids are different than when you and I were raised. The other day I was in a restaurant and saw two kids roller skating around the dining room. They were zipping around with those roller shoes kids wear and their parents were just sitting there in the booth talking. Servers were coming out of the kitchen with huge trays of food and trying to avoid from a huge accident. I see that stuff more and more every day and I ask myself......do I really wanna try to fight against that with my kid??? So far.....the answer is no.

LOL Wow man. You definitely shouldn't have kids any time in the near future if ever with that kind of attitude. The potential for negative influence on your kids has been the same for years.....the only thing that has changed is who's allowed to discipline your child and how, which makes the greater responsibility fall to the parents which so many fail at doing. What are you gonna do if you end up having a child by accident? Are you going to give up on him/her at 4-6 months because she's crying all the time or is it gonna be during their terrible 2's? Teens? I'm assuming your not fresh-out-of-high school with your whole life ahead of you anymore. I'm just saying maybe it's time you start having some more realistic expectations as far as kids before you start regretting it and become incapable of having any via your female counterpart or yourself.

LOL and before anyone says this, I'm not saying go out and have kids tommorow. I'm just saying it's definitely worth a second thought reassessing your views towards the thought of children someday.

[tsntx]

like werwt said i think crap has always been around influencing kids, but parents today dont use physical punishment and i know from growing up in a house that gave spankings to having a pair of cousins that were NEVER spanked that my kids fuck up, their ass is gonna get fucked up. im not about to have kids talking back to me, cursing at me, telling me what im gonna do etc etc like my cousins did my aunt & uncle.... no way.

[SarahG]

-deleted-

[MonsieurValentine]

in the spirit of honesty, julie, i did not find either of the photos you posted attractive nor passable. apples and oranges, whatever. i just had to comment.

but, to me passibility is the key. by "passibility" we are refering that one is passing as a genetic female. and females are generally considered more attractive by society. and that is why passibility wins out for me.

there is a lot of truth to what allanah and vicki said. anytime you have cosmetic "work" done, people are going to notice and look. my aunt, a genetic female, has had so much "work" done on her face that people look at her regardless. it's just how it is.

but overall, if someone like jennifer or leora walked through a mall in middle america, i don't think anyone would know the difference. unless, like previously stated, someone is looking for it!

and don't blame the kids! i recall southwest airlines did a whole compaign based on this where the kid looks at his mom and says, "mommy, she doesn't have two faces." wanna get away? remember, trick love the kids!

[Tanuki]

Hmm,, minutia and details.. Often on this site I read things then write things and then think of things later or not. On this one, hmmm..

BOTH!!!!! of course.. are they not the same?? but ok. you have made an interesting point with your arguement and I have considered it..
in the end


FEMINITY RULES THE WORLD> BEAUTY AND PASSABILITY ARE ONE AND THE SAME.. for me.. hahah

[TsVanessa69]

i think you can be both-or at least achieve a good balance with surgery, styling, grooming-

but given the choice- i would much rather be beautiful and exotic and surged than just a plain jane, even if that gets me clocked a bit more
I agree! :twisted:

[NYTSJulie]

in the spirit of honesty, julie, i did not find either of the photos you posted attractive nor passable. apples and oranges, whatever. i just had to comment.

but, to me passibility is the key. by "passibility" we are refering that one is passing as a genetic female. and females are generally considered more attractive by society. and that is why passibility wins out for me.

there is a lot of truth to what allanah and vicki said. anytime you have cosmetic "work" done, people are going to notice and look. my aunt, a genetic female, has had so much "work" done on her face that people look at her regardless. it's just how it is.

but overall, if someone like jennifer or leora walked through a mall in middle america, i don't think anyone would know the difference. unless, like previously stated, someone is looking for it!

and don't blame the kids! i recall southwest airlines did a whole compaign based on this where the kid looks at his mom and says, "mommy, she doesn't have two faces." wanna get away? remember, trick love the kids!

Well I guess to each their own, but I think you get the point.

[tsntx]

sweetie i think he was talking bout the 2 OTHER girls pics you posted the "passable older woman" and the "pretty showgirl" ones... i dont think it was directed at you at all .. loves ya -j

[NYTSJulie]

sweetie i think he was talking bout the 2 OTHER girls pics you posted the "passable older woman" and the "pretty showgirl" ones... i dont think it was directed at you at all .. loves ya -j

LOL ohh, you might be right

[NYTSJulie]

And I am sitting here thinking "that's stupid mother fucker". Silly me.

[tsntx]

lol... so edit your post girlie

[NYTSJulie]

lol... so edit your post girlie

LOL thanks bitch, I live for you and I am so glad you didnt leave.........loves ya

[mustang]

Everytime I see something like that it just solidifies my decision not to have kids!

why? do you think you wouldnt be a good parent? bc its not the kids fault he has shitty parents w/ no parenting skills.

children see. children do.
make your influence a positive one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6JfHB2cruJU





I think I probably would make a good parent.My issue is exactly what you said....Children see,Children do. They also do what they see their peers try to do. So even though it's not that kids fault that their parents are the way they are........that kid is gonna grow up to be an ass.Good luck trying to guide your child when that is what they are exposed to all day.I have five younger brothers. My mom and dad are a no nonsense duo. Non of us have gotten in any trouble thus far and all of us have gone to school.That being said...My dad is pulling his hair out with my little brother.He goes to his buddies houses and sees them cursing at their parents and wants to come home with that attitude that "jimmy" does it.I see my dad at wits end and that is hard to do to my father.Kids are different than when you and I were raised. The other day I was in a restaurant and saw two kids roller skating around the dining room. They were zipping around with those roller shoes kids wear and their parents were just sitting there in the booth talking. Servers were coming out of the kitchen with huge trays of food and trying to avoid from a huge accident. I see that stuff more and more every day and I ask myself......do I really wanna try to fight against that with my kid??? So far.....the answer is no.

LOL Wow man. You definitely shouldn't have kids any time in the near future if ever with that kind of attitude. The potential for negative influence on your kids has been the same for years.....the only thing that has changed is who's allowed to discipline your child and how, which makes the greater responsibility fall to the parents which so many fail at doing. What are you gonna do if you end up having a child by accident? Are you going to give up on him/her at 4-6 months because she's crying all the time or is it gonna be during their terrible 2's? Teens? I'm assuming your not fresh-out-of-high school with your whole life ahead of you anymore. I'm just saying maybe it's time you start having some more realistic expectations as far as kids before you start regretting it and become incapable of having any via your female counterpart or yourself.

LOL and before anyone says this, I'm not saying go out and have kids tommorow. I'm just saying it's definitely worth a second thought reassessing your views towards the thought of children someday.


I am not questioning my ability........I just dont wanna have to keep reprogramming my kids after they get back from their friends house.If you dont see that kids are worse than ever before you might want to get outside.Just look at the school massacres that have gone down in the last 10 years alone.Not everyone wants to have kids. Some of us are perfectly happy without them.

[GIA LOVES RON]

for me passability is important but then again beauty can only make you go so far......but yeah if I would to choose I would wanna look like any other normal biological girl out there.....

[Hannibal Lecter]

I'm just sitting here and wondering... It must be very big pain in the ass for
most of the TG's going around each day and struggling to make themselfs as passable
as possible. Things like "omg, I am going to be clocked here..", "people have noticed that,
I can feel it.." I mean, if you have to deal with it each and every day of your life, then
it's a terrible thing, isn't it? I can imagine that the girl's self esteem degrades rapidly
because of that, and it certainly leaves some impact on her entire personality. Just a thought.

[yodajazz]

I was trying to find a suitable example of someone who I think is passable, but not the most beautiful. I found the example I was looking for in Adam Thompson’s avatar. I just noticed that she may have an adam’s apple. But besides that, she really blends in her style of dress.
Most of the pictures we see of our girls are glamour shots, with lots of t&a showing. I love to look, but for a relationship, I prefer a more conservative look like A.T.’s avatar.

For me, I feel the same about the looks of gg’s. I would not like to go grocery shopping with my lady, and have her in stiletto heels, a mini skirt and a low cut top. I am sure that our girls do not dress like this all the time either, but maybe a bit more than they should.

So my post is more about blending than anything. I find the woman in A.T.’s avatar to be very attractive. Glasses project intelligence, a feature I find most attractive in all types of women. She may not be, in reality. But the way she is dressed in the avatar, I would feel comfortable taking her anywhere.

[meghanchavalier]

I would hope that the most important thing for any transgender girl would be being comfortable in their own skin and not worrying about what others might think of her. I've never lived my life wondering or caring what other people might think of me and I hope other girls do the same. It's about being who you are, not what the world wants you to be.

Just my opinion.

[Alison Faraday]

I'm just sitting here and wondering... It must be very big pain in the ass for
most of the TG's going around each day and struggling to make themselfs as passable
as possible. Things like "omg, I am going to be clocked here..", "people have noticed that,
I can feel it.." I mean, if you have to deal with it each and every day of your life, then
it's a terrible thing, isn't it? I can imagine that the girl's self esteem degrades rapidly
because of that, and it certainly leaves some impact on her entire personality. Just a thought.

The truth is that you don't really think about it. I'll try to explain..

When a transsexual transitions they kind of go through a silly stage, say for a year leading up to the big day, and say for about a year afterwards. Then they settle down. During those 2-years passing is important, while at the same time it isn't since the ego boost of doing it all protects you. Hence, silly stage.

Admittedly I have a mental scar. While I know that I pass totally, I also have that scar. I still suffer from low self esteem. BUT. It's kind of a defence mechanism. Since if you're worrying about passing, then that's enough to give the game away. But what game is that?

The realisation is that there is no game. No one gives a shit. No one cares who we are. And it's realising that which can be used to our advantage.

There's another fault which ALOT of TGs make, and that's over confidence. That's one sure way to stand out like a sore thumb, as well as making similar shallow friends in the process.

The safest life is to simply blend in. That means no contact with other TGs. And that certainly means forgetting alot of what you've picked up throughout your journey.

Do I pass? Yes I do! I wasn't asking. ;) That's more to do with my defence mechanism when the low self esteem kicks in. 90% of the time I don't even think about it, neither do I care either. I have NEVER been clocked in recent years. You CAN tell when you are, it's a sixth sense that people are watching.

Now that's a lie. About a year ago a small Chinese kid of about 4 years old was sitting on the counter in the Chinky Restaurant and he asked me if I was a man or a women. "What do you think," I said playfully. WOMAN! he said. Thank God for that!! Little bastard. Then I pushed him off the counter. Little fucker!! But afterwards, that really did hurt.

The trick is how you deal with things. It's so difficult to explain. If you believe, then you are. That kind of thing. But you musn't tell yourself that you believe.

Remember Neo from The Matrix. "Don't Think You Are, Know You Are!"

It's a total head job. It really is. I care, but I don't if you know what I mean. I am simply me. I never try to be something that I'm not. Never. I'm just plain old me. There is no pretence or show.

Incredibly difficult to explain.

[TsVanessa69]

How about just taking care of details, so u don't look like an obvious dude, learn to love and accept yourself for who you are, then say"ffuck it!", here I come world, take it or leave it, because I have to live my life for me! No transexual is ever 100% passable everyday all day, so fuck passable, and beauty? It's in the eye of the beholder. Self-love is more important. Me, I'm sorta passable, kinda cute, but I love me, so fuck everybody elses opinions. I took care of what bothered me most with my "transition" and I am happy with myself. I go everywhere with out a problem for the most part, when I feel i lookmy worst, nobody even pays me no mind, isn't that passable? Shit I went to the Puerto Rican fest here in Chicago a few weeks ago and had a blast as I do ever year! And thats real ghetto, but I loved it, and nobody called me out. A few guys hit on my, but thats not a bad thing right??? :twisted:

[CORVETTEDUDE]

I think alot has to do with the manner in which your "War Paint" is applied. It isn't just a TG problem. There are many ladies, regardless of gender or natural beauty, that haven't a clue as to how to apply make up to enhance their looks. This, from a guy's perspective.

[Str8mlover4TS]

Ok the question is... Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

Beauty and passability are two different things and don't always go hand and hand.

The question is, what is more important? If your a guy, what is more important to you, and if your a TS, what do you strive for... Beauty or Passability?

The nice thing is Julie... you are BOTH! :hitit

kisses

Back at ya ~~~ XOXOXO

[tgirlzoe]

i don't want to look like gia or allanah, or whoever. they're as far removed from me as a big masculine guy, it's just not my thing. i want to look like the girl you don't know because she's just a girl. i want to look like me.

i transitioned because i couldn't be me as a boy, it just didn't work well, it involve getting beat up a lot and teased. now i like my life because i can just fit in and be myself and it works because society thinks it's okay for a girl to look like and act like i do.

i also transitioned because i wanted to be cuter and more attractive to guys. very few gay guys were interested in a chubby androgynous femme boi. now, i may not be a raving beauty, but at least checking a guy out may get me looks back which don't involve kicking my ass. guys actually ask me out and like me and i feel much more confident that i'm going to find the perfect guy for me this way.

some people have a real strong gender identity, both trans people, and non-trans people. they know they are boys or girls. i used to think i did. now i don't really care too much, i'm just me. i've been dealing with gender all my life, internally and externally, i've been out for the past 5-6 years and i've been in transition for the past 3. i'm tired of it, i really am. i don't care anymore, i just want to be. i don't want to think about whether i pass or not and i try not to.

so what's with all the plastic surgery? i don't like it and i think it does clash with beauty. beauty is cultivated, not carved, and it's an outgrowth of what's inside. you can take an average-looking girl and she can become beautiful but it's a whole 'nother thing than a nose or boob job. i just want to be that girl, i just want to be me.

my $0.02.
~ zoe

[loki]

Personality is and compatability is what is most important.Although looks and a good rear is also a plus.

[Odelay]

Great topic. I enjoyed reading everyone's replies. I would simply add this...

Passability is gender dependent, beauty isn't - it's more universal.

I have this friend Mike. At first I didn't notice this but eventually I came to realize that he gets looks from everyone... guys, girls, kids, old grannies, you name it. Totally natural looking dude in his early 40's. Doesn't carry himself like a male model or anything. But people just gravitate towards him. I've seen it occur even in the 3rd world when we've travelled together.

Again, that's universal beauty. It transcends gender and sexual orientation.

I think beauty definitely has its advantages, regardless if you're seen as gender F, gender M, or gender T.

Passability would also seem to have its advantages for those TG's whose greatest desire is to live life as a woman.

p.s. Vanessa, great story about your experience on the streets in Chicago. It really speaks to what I'm saying here. Regardless of what gender people perceive you to be, it's impossible to deny that you're beautiful.

[tsntx]

i transitioned because i couldn't be me as a boy,..."
~ zoe

thats the ONLY reason a person should transition.

[Dorian Gray]

I don't want to sound dumb which i probably do for starting off with that. But would a guy date a ts that he don't find attractive? And if he finds her attractive he probably thinks she is passable even if she is not. Or maybe it depends on whether the guys likes guys or girls. lol i'm confused now doesn't everyone want passable? Well i guess you can be beautiful without being passable. Either way i don't see why a guy would date a girl that he doesn't find beautiful if you like ts that much you shouldn't settle for anything that doesn't meet your standards as far as beauty in and out..

[emmatgirl]

id rather be passable than beautiful but frankly i'd settle for either ;)

[tombessence]

I'd say neither is that important. Look at the popularity of Barbie Woods, Vicky Richter, and Olivia Love on this board. None of the above can be considered passable or even particularly pretty, yet post a pic of any one of them, and you'll get a shitload of replies from admirers. Who can explain it?

[hondarobot]

Oh, who cares? Being TS is what it is.

I'm attracted to women, that's all I really need to be concerned with.

[tgirlzoe]

I don't want to sound dumb which i probably do for starting off with that. But would a guy date a ts that he don't find attractive? And if he finds her attractive he probably thinks she is passable even if she is not. Or maybe it depends on whether the guys likes guys or girls. lol i'm confused now doesn't everyone want passable? Well i guess you can be beautiful without being passable. Either way i don't see why a guy would date a girl that he doesn't find beautiful if you like ts that much you shouldn't settle for anything that doesn't meet your standards as far as beauty in and out..

well, true. guys don't date (at least for long) any girl they think is unattractive physically or in personality. but there is a difference between the rosy glasses we view our partners through and the cold shallow world of clubs or porn or whatever where we're going "she's hot", "she's a dog", "those boobs are soo fake", etc.

[Dorian Gray]

Isn't it better to be a very attractive ts then a very unattractive women? I have been reading some of the post and ts have it ruff i see a lot violent things i would have had no clue about so i guess it is better to be a unattractive women then a very attractive ts.

[SarahG]

I don't agree. They seem passable and pretty to me, i think a lot of guys here would agree with me or they probably wouldn't be as popular as they are.... I could show you pictures of many GGs who don't look as pretty or passable and you'd think they were CDs. :)

Guys are very visual and if they're straight then passability is as important as being attractive. Sorry if it sounds shallow and petty but it's the truth in my world. :wink:

I am inclined to agree, I know les GGs who won't date GGs that are so butch that they look and act "like normal guys." Passibility matters in the dating realm for more than just trans people.

[TrueBeauty TS]

I'd say neither is that important. Look at the popularity of Barbie Woods, Vicky Richter, and Olivia Love on this board. None of the above can be considered passable or even particularly pretty, yet post a pic of any one of them, and you'll get a shitload of replies from admirers. Who can explain it?


HUH??? :what




.

[hwbs]

i think more than a few people woukd beg to differ,,,

[NYCe]

I'd say neither is that important. Look at the popularity of Barbie Woods, Vicky Richter, and Olivia Love on this board. None of the above can be considered passable or even particularly pretty, yet post a pic of any one of them, and you'll get a shitload of replies from admirers. Who can explain it?

:smh

[Thor57]

beauty is best.... :P :) :roll:

[liisawinkler]

I would hope that the most important thing for any transgender girl would be being comfortable in their own skin and not worrying about what others might think of her. I've never lived my life wondering or caring what other people might think of me and I hope other girls do the same. It's about being who you are, not what the world wants you to be.

Just my opinion.

prophetic....

passable or not...whether the girl behind the counter calls me Sir or Ma'm being happy in the skin i have chosen to don is the ultimate satisfaction...i don't care if they see me as a bloke in woman's clothing...let me take my turn in physically analysing them from head to toe and im sure to come up with more than enough derogatory comments about what they can change about their looks...

[Kabuki]

...i don't care if they see me as a bloke in woman's clothing

I doubt anyone would call you a bloke love. I just had to say that 8)

[tsntx]

Isn't it better to be a very attractive ts then a very unattractive women? I have been reading some of the post and ts have it ruff i see a lot violent things i would have had no clue about so i guess it is better to be a unattractive women then a very attractive ts.

to be a very attractive ts vs an unattractive woman is basically saying "shes hot for a dude trying to look like a woman" ... which really isnt a compliment on any level.

[tsntx]

I would hope that the most important thing for any transgender girl would be being comfortable in their own skin and not worrying about what others might think of her. I've never lived my life wondering or caring what other people might think of me and I hope other girls do the same. It's about being who you are, not what the world wants you to be.

Just my opinion.

prophetic....

passable or not...whether the girl behind the counter calls me Sir or Ma'm being happy in the skin i have chosen to don is the ultimate satisfaction...i don't care if they see me as a bloke in woman's clothing...let me take my turn in physically analysing them from head to toe and im sure to come up with more than enough derogatory comments about what they can change about their looks...

love it! co sign! :P

[Harvey Byrdman]

Isn't it better to be a very attractive ts then a very unattractive women? I have been reading some of the post and ts have it ruff i see a lot violent things i would have had no clue about so i guess it is better to be a unattractive women then a very attractive ts.

to be a very attractive ts vs an unattractive woman is basically saying "shes hot for a dude trying to look like a woman" ... which really isnt a compliment on any level.

No it's not. A TS woman is still a woman. It should read "Isn't it better to be a very attractive woman than a very unattractive woman?". The longer people hold onto this differentiation between a GG woman and a TS woman, the longer these absurd comparisons will come about. A woman is a woman, regardless if she were born differently. There's a lot more to gender than what's hanging (or isn't) between your legs.

PS: Jennifer, if I may call you that, you are more lovely with every new avatar.

[tsntx]

ty ;) im looking fwd to your upcoming new episode on sunday ;)

[yodajazz]

No it's not. A TS woman is still a woman. It should read "Isn't it better to be a very attractive woman than a very unattractive woman?". The longer people hold onto this differentiation between a GG woman and a TS woman, the longer these absurd comparisons will come about. A woman is a woman, regardless if she were born differently. There's a lot more to gender than what's hanging (or isn't) between your legs.


I have been saying something similar for a while; That there is little difference at all between women, gg and ts. Most discussions here that apply to ts women, also apply to other women.

I think this thread has gotten off track, in that it was not about beauty vs. ugliness, but about standing out (beauty), vs blending in (passable). I think this could also apply to gg women, in that there are many men, who would not like a glamorous 'Pam Anderson, or Tyra Banks' type as their woman because they would attract too much attention in public. There is also a concern about others trying to get with her behind your back. In other words a women could be so beautiful that some men feel would insecure wtih them being their woman.

So depending on how you look at it, most issues here do apply to all women. A majority of adult women get married at sometime in their lives.
So while beauty is a plus, many men find beauty in an 'average' looking woman, and prefer her over a movie star.

[tgirlzoe]

passable or not...whether the girl behind the counter calls me Sir or Ma'm being happy in the skin i have chosen to don is the ultimate satisfaction...i don't care if they see me as a bloke in woman's clothing...let me take my turn in physically analysing them from head to toe and im sure to come up with more than enough derogatory comments about what they can change about their looks...

I don't think being seen as a woman is the "ultimate satisfaction", I think more about love, marriage, family, God, etc. than just being seen as a woman. To me, it's the beginning of life, not the end. I don't think I could have been fully happy if I had not transitioned, I was in mental and physical pain from the testosterone and it's hard to be truly happy if you're constantly miserable.

Maybe things would have settled down, I would have got out of puberty (which is hell for everyone) and been more in touch with my own body and became an attractive gay man and married another attractive gay man and adopted happy little babies but probably not.

So being seen as a woman isn't that directly important to me, it's more the absence of pain than a pleasure. Pleasure comes when I feel attractive and loved and in a stable situation with good people and good food.

However, I will say that respect is more important than passability. When I moved into the dorms at my university, I didn't tell anyone about my history, I didn't think it was relevant. I started making friends and not telling them either. I just wanted to be treated normal and when you say something, you suddenly become not normal and people, even if they are "accepting" will treat you different. I used to say, "I don't care if people see me as a boy or a girl, just so long as they don't see me as a tranny" (which very well could get me beat up). However, now it's more like, "I don't care if people think I might be trans or not, just so long as they don't bring it up." I don't really like talking about being trans, especially in real life with straight people and so I don't. I'm sure people whisper about me but just so long as it doesn't become a big deal, it's not too bad.

[SarahG]

I think this thread has gotten off track, in that it was not about beauty vs. ugliness, but about standing out (beauty), vs blending in (passable).

I am not sure I agree with the notion that blending in is the only way of passing... someone can stand out from looking good and still pass as a GG without problems.

[Vala_TS]

i transitioned because i couldn't be me as a boy,..."
~ zoe

thats the ONLY reason a person should transition.

I agree, and that's why I'm transitioning.

Vala,

[62des]

Beauty and Passability go together. Without one, there is no other.

[Jericho]

Beauty and Passability go together. Without one, there is no other.


I disagree.

I'm not going to mention any names, but, i've seen many girls who wouldn't 'pass' in a powercut down a coalmine. They get clocked on a regular basis.
...It doesn't make them any less beautiful.

[62des]

Oh I get it now. We're talkin about inner beauty. Then you're right you can be ugly on the outside but beautiful on the inside.

[Jericho]

Oh I get it now. We're talkin about inner beauty. Then you're right you can be ugly on the outside but beautiful on the inside.


That's not what i wrote, is it, but you read into it whatever you want.

Lets go with your definition...If a girl gets clocked, she's not attractive?

I'll stick with mine thanks. :shrug

[mbf]

:shock: bump :shock:

[KiraHarden]

I chose passabilty

[peggygee]

:shock: bump :shock:

Let's see what the newbs have to say on the matter. :wink:

[SexyMagdi]

Id say if your beautiful then your already passible. But for me its beauty. Cause there are many things one can do to look more femanine without any major surgery.

[Night Rider]

Obviously beauty....think about it, there really sexy ts that aren't 100% passable.

So ur telling me u'd rather have an ugly ts, that looks like a gg 100%?

...didn't think so

[peggygee]

From my comments on page 2 of this thread:

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=21721&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20


Ok the question is........Beauty or Passability? What is more important?

There is a large spectrum of looks among transsexuals. Ranging from some girls being absolutely beautiful to some being very unattractive.

Then you have passability. Some girls are extremely passable then others you can clock from a mile away.

Beauty and passability are two different things and dont always go hand and hand.

The question is what is more important? If your a guy what is more important to you, and if your a ts what do you strive for....Beauty or Passability?

The ideal would be to have both.

But if you must chose, I would say passable hands down.

As has been stated a number of times in this thread, there
are many beautiful transwomen who are easily clocked for
one reason or another. Many times because they look too
artifical, or plastic, like man made women.

I also feel it's important to be beautiful on the inside, as there
are many physically attractive women who are quite ugly because
of their personality and vice-versa


Ok here is an example, One is more attractive and one is more passable. The first picture she is attractive but you can clearly tell she is a TS. The second picture just looks like a not so attractive woman but you would never guess she was once male.




By the by, the lady in photo #2 is the lovely, brilliant, and gifted
Lynn Conway herself.

And if I was a guy, or hell as the mildly bi woman that I am, I would
prefer her to contestant #1. Most likely because she's closer to my age
and that we would have more in common, and like you pointed out she's
very passable.

Yo Lynn, holla at your girl. :wink:

[Jackal]

Beauty, that's what I love in women(GG or TG).

If she's beautiful but not passable, then only an ***hole who I don't respect would say or do anything negative because my girl is a transwoman.

[Night Rider]

Beauty, that's what I love in women(GG or TG).

If she's beautiful but not passable, then only an ***hole who I don't respect would say or do anything negative because my girl is a transwoman.

I agree, but u can curse in front of us...we'll not wash ur mouth out with soap :wink:

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Let's just put things in simplier terms shall we?: "Beauty" can now be bought from a cosmetic/plastic surgeon. "Passability" as a woman, now that's a whole different ball game and is rarely achieved thru surgeries without looking too caricaturish (And not for anything but lot of asian ts'es rarely fo thru FFS compared to their western counterpart)! All things considered and granted you now had both Beauty and Passability..then there's voice that needs to be worked on to tie them all together! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Night Rider]

Let's just put things in simplier terms shall we?: "Beauty" can now be bought from a cosmetic/plastic surgeon. "Passability" as a woman, now that's a whole different ball game and is rarely achieved thru surgeries without looking too caricaturish (And not for anything but lot of asian ts'es rarely fo thru FFS compared to their western counterpart)! All things considered and granted you now had both Beauty and Passability..then there's voice that needs to be worked on to tie them all together! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Ur beautiful & passable, but if u had to give up one, what would it be?

Don't mean to put u on the spot!

Bear in mind there are beautiful, non barbie doll tgirls that aren't passable...

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Night Rider, I wouldnt change anything genetic my parents gave me. I have a good basic palette to work with. But If ever I do, I'd just go for some minor improvements over time when gravity strikes. LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Night Rider]

Night Rider, I wouldnt change anything genetic my parents gave me. I have a good basic palette to work with. But If ever I do, I'd just go for some minor improvements over time when gravity strikes. LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Good answer, but i'd save my money if i were u....ur beautiful the way u are :wink:

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Bear in mind there are beautiful, non barbie doll tgirls that aren't passable...

Duh? As there are barbie looking tgirls that doesnt pass either! Grasshopper, you have much to learn. Not every aspiring tg/ts wants to grow up and look like a barbie. :roll:




Good answer, but i'd save my money if i were u....ur beautiful the way u are :wink:

LOL Thanks. Why dont you save yours for me? :lol:

~Kisses.

HTG

[Night Rider]

Bear in mind there are beautiful, non barbie doll tgirls that aren't passable...

Duh? As there are barbie looking tgirls that doesnt pass either! Grasshopper, you have much to learn. Not every aspiring tg/ts wants to grow up and look like a barbie. :roll:




Good answer, but i'd save my money if i were u....ur beautiful the way u are :wink:

LOL Thanks. Why dont you save yours for me? :lol:

~Kisses.

HTG

LOL I didn't really explain that well. What i was trying to say was, there are girls that u can tell are tgirls but are still very attractive. I don't think being passable is the 'be all and end all'. Does that make sense...probably not lol

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

As there are girls you cant tell are tgirls that are also attractive. And what was your point originally again? LOL Now lemme just look at your sausage! LOL :lol:

~Kisses.

HTG

[Night Rider]

As there are girls you cant tell are tgirls that are also attractive. And what was your point originally again? LOL Now lemme just look at your sausage! LOL :lol:

~Kisses.

HTG

haha im confusing myself! :lol: Never mind me, i've just a curious mind

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

LOL So where's my Irish "boy band" sausage at? Dont make me order pizza tonight Night Rider! LOL :lol:

;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Night Rider]

LOL So where's my Irish "boy band" sausage at? Dont make me order pizza tonight Night Rider! LOL :lol:

;)

~Kisses.

HTG

LOL my computer is acting up, it's on it's way!

[Trogdor]

Both.....a TG could look like Glenn Close or Cameren Manheim....might be passable.....but that's not what I'd call beauty.....ick :P