Sicko...............................

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I'm watching this Moore flick right now, it's probably been discussed on here already but this shit really woke me up to the healthcare system here in the states. This might sound fucked up but this shit makes me want to live elsewhere, I'm appalled by what I'm hearing, seeing, & reading and I'm only ½ way through the flick........................

[mtbazz]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda. Our health care system, while needing some amount of overhaul, isnt all that bad. Many of those other countries that get touted as having better health care systems are fairly socialist, and as a result the citizens of those countries are heavily taxed in order to pay for the health care of others...Canada is reported to have a better health care system than us, but from what Ive heard there are long waits to get some treatments up there, as a result some canadians come down here for treatment.

Also, if there is any big pharma bashing in there about their profits, I can shed some insight. I work in big pharma, and the corporate execs ARE grossly overpaid and, and some of them incompetent...However, one reason drugs are expensive is because of the amount of money it takes to develop tham. From start to finish it takes an average of ten years to bring a drug to market. To give you a clue to the expenses involved, the research I do for the drugs getting developed in the program I am assigned to costs an average of 10k-12k per month. That just includes materials to conduct experiments, it does not include my salary. Thats 100k-120k per year spent by one scientist in one program. There are 12 other scientists assigned to my project who probably spend close tot hat amount. So it really does take millions, sometimes billions to developa drug. Thats money big pharma does have a right to get back, they are ultiamtely in business to make money, not to act as a charity...

Dont get me wrong, there are flaws in our healthcare that need to be addresed, but for the most part, people here have it pretty good in terms of healthcare. As for Big Pharma, they are not all that evil, but they have flaws also....The execs are grossly overpaid, and some of them are downright incompetent and pull stunts that are borderline (if not outright) illegal...

[Legend]

I know what you mean i brought up this movie up before the healthcare system here is just too corrupt you have goverment working with private companies just to make money.Hopefully this movie will open alot of peoples eyes and change the system some how.

the bush admistration(probably the most beneficial of this corrupt system) is threatening moore with legal action stating that some of the scenes from sicko were filmed illegally in cuba which i say is bullshit just them trying to f**k with moore for opening the peoples eyes to their scandal.

[Cuchulain]

"Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries......Compared with five other nations—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives. The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes." -
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=482678

"Why is the U.S. healthcare system so expensive? Administrative costs, marketing and profits account for 22 to 31 percent of the U.S. healthcare dollar (I recently heard Edward Kennedy say these costs were 33 percent, but I have not seen documentation of that number). By contrast, overhead costs in single-payer systems (including Medicare) typically are 3 percent.

In America's for-profit private insurance healthcare system, medical technicians must contend with hundreds of different forms, billing procedures, regulations and requirements from hundreds of insurance companies; U.S. healthcare companies spend money for advertising and marketing; and, the U.S. healthcare system is based on profit. Since 1970, the number of medical doctors in the United States has increased 40 percent, while the number of medical administrators has increased almost 3,000 percent.

We are paying for a massive, inefficient bureaucracy. The increasing cost of prescription drugs also is increasing the healthcare bill, and U.S. drug costs are the highest in the world; Americans pay 30 percent to 80 percent more for prescription drugs than citizens of any other country.

You might think that this excess money goes into developing new drugs, but you would be wrong: Only 13 percent of drug costs go to research and development, and little of that goes for pioneering new drugs to deal with life-threatening conditions; 51 percent goes to marketing, administration and profits......
Medicare is a single-payer system -- a very popular one, by the way -- and single-payer systems such as Medicare do not employ any doctors or own any hospitals or medical facilities, let alone create bureaucracies approximating the bloated, inefficient bureaucracy the private insurance model has created in America.

Rather than hundreds of payers (insurance companies) and thousands of different forms, regulations and procedures, there would be one payer and one set of forms and procedures. Single-payer also would offer more choice of medical providers; unlike the current system, where patients are limited to panels of providers, in a single-payer system, patients go to any doctor they want, submit a national health insurance card and the government pays -- just like Medicare.

Single-payer is the simplest, most efficient, system of all. While single-payer is a government-paid program, American taxpayers already pay more than 60 percent of healthcare costs in America (including tax subsidies). With that much money invested, can't we demand a system that covers everyone at reasonable cost and with improved performance? Why should we continue to allow 22 percent to 31 percent of healthcare costs to be swallowed by bureaucratic inefficiencies, marketing and profit?

John Garamendi, formerly California's insurance commissioner and now lieutenant governor, campaigned in favor of single-payer and said repeatedly on the stump: "Are you aware that for 40 years, the United States has had a universal single-payer healthcare system that allows every participant to choose their own doctor, its administrative cost is one-tenth the cost of private insurance and people do everything possible to get into the system (i.e., live to 65). It is Medicare, and no one calls it socialized medicine." -
http://www.alternet.org/stories/46550/

"..Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America.." says mtbazz. (Bill O'Reilly, is that you?) What a load of horseshit. Michael Moore speaks truth to power, exposes corruption and stands up for the average guy. I, for one, am glad he does.

[BlackAdder]

And did you ever ask yourself why it takes that long Mtbazz??? FDA corruption maybe??? Im pretty familiar with the section 8 and medical assistance here in PA, and I can tell you without a doubt the Big Pharma = thieves and brigands.

[SarahG]

Moore lost all his legitimacy with me a long time ago.

He flat out admits on camera in public as presenting his movies and books as one sided arguments using only the information on the subjects that helps his case (while ignoring the rest) while making implications and causing readers/viewers to read between the lines to draw inaccurate, biased conclusions on certain issues.

And I say that as a liberal who would be all to eager to see a realistic, accurate documentary on any number of the subjects he has done thus far.

If you ever get a chance to read Stupid White Men, one of the things you will find in the text if you pay attention, is a section where Moore essentially blames Alzheimer's on mad cow disease & the beef industry... this is flat out off the mark inaccurate and anyone familiar with the real science behind either Alzheimers or mad cow realizes immediately upon reading this part of the book that, at least that part of Moore's text- was complete and utter baseless bullshit.

To take Moore's words as gospel is like going and doing the same for someone like Falwell or Coulter from the other end of the talking-heads/clown spectrum... it just doesn't make sense. Now Moore's stuff is good entertainment, it has certainly been profitable for him... and it gets people talking about certain issues... those dialogs are a good thing, but its a far jump from that to viewing the guy as a well respected social scientist.

[SarahG]

One thing to add; given the reputation the feds and states have for buerocratic practices involving over complicating even what was originally the simplest tasks (i.e. our tax codes), do we honestly believe that the federal gov would be able to emplace a fully federalized national health care program for the entire population while preventing it from turning into the corrupt money pit that all our other programs and agencies seem transition into?

Our health system is bad but a federalized health care system for the entire population is hardly a magic pill to cure all these issues.

[whatsupwithat]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda.

Oh my fucking god....did you write that with a straight face?

[gimmeurblood]

i like micheal moore. i think hes funny so i will probably watch this movie eventually. i think any smart individual would know that mr. moore presents an extremely one-sided view of of whatever arguement or cause hes rallying behind this week. however the side he represents is the side that the government casually sweeps under the rug without a mention. so maybe the BIG P's arent as corrupt as he says they are but they are still pocket in pocket with our government who have done all they can to fuck the little guys and girls, and thats still corupption. thats why i think people buy into moore so easily. he will show you the shitty side and make it look as shitty and as miserable as possible. its up to us to figure out where that line of truth and bullshit lies.

[MonsieurValentine]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda.

Oh my fucking god....did you write that with a straight face?

i wouldn't call him a communist, but his films are VERY one sided. which is a shame because they had potential tto be powerful if he wasn't so extreme in his bias. instead, he lost my attention along time ago.

[ARMANIXXX]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda.

Oh my fucking god....did you write that with a straight face?

i wouldn't call him a communist, but his films are VERY one sided. which is a shame because they had potential tto be powerful if he wasn't so extreme in his bias. instead, he lost my attention along time ago.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________



Agreed.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

1st off I want to say to Legend, I noticed after I made this thread you'd made one with the exact same name, it was early in the a.m. and I was ½ asleep but felt the need to make one up instead of doing a search

anyone that wants to see that thread
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=20887

continuing on I have a question: Are we discussing the film and it's points or the creator and his beliefs????

I am not going to attack anyone, you all are entitled to your opinions but from some of the replies I read you seemed to base your replies on 'hearsay' whereas (and it may have just purely been his view and his view alone but that's what filmmakers do show things from the view they want the audience to see) Moore went to several locations and showed the systems and how they worked...............

I'm honestly fascinated how this jumped from the topic of the film to an attack on Michael Moore, wow!!!!!!!!!!!

Either way I appreciate the replies, Legend (my bad I was exhausted, lol), and keep it coming. I know we have a few Canadians on HA, I can't wait to hear them chime in on this, not to mention some of our European HA members..................

[lahabra1976]

I haven't seen this film yet, but I seen his previous films. I dont know but in my opinion a lot of his stuff tends to be taken out of context and really dont provide any proof to his theories. For example, I saw the one on Bush and one of his claims was that after 911 Bush continue to read stories to kids 9 min after he was notifed of 911. And he showed a scene of him in a kid's classroom and Michael Moore syas "look he was notified and he stood there and did nothing for 9 min." But how do we really know that was taken the day of 911? That could of been taken any day and Micheal Moore was just taking it out of context. And how would Michael Moore ever get footage of that anyways?

He also got footage of Bush's father gong to the Arabs and making side deals with them and shaking their hands as proof that they had deals with the Arabs. But still how is Bush's father being seen shaking hands with a Arab official prove that. Just about every president will have film footage of them shaking hands with a Arab official. And he shows footage of Bush's cabinet making these smacks and smiles during makeup. But how is that bad? How does that prove they are bad ppl?

Point is he gives these footages that really could have nothing to do with his theory and probably are taken out of context. As see his films of taking advantage of how ppl easily believe conspiracy theories and is just trying to make money off it.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I haven't seen this film yet, but I seen his previous films. I dont know but in my opinion a lot of his stuff tends to be taken out of context and really dont provide any proof to his theories. For example, I saw the one on Bush and one of his claims was that after 911 Bush continue to read stories to kids 9 min after he was notifed of 911. And he showed a scene of him in a kid's classroom and Michael Moore syas "look he was notified and he stood there and did nothing for 9 min." But how do we really know that was taken the day of 911? That could of been taken any day and Micheal Moore was just taking it out of context. And how would Michael Moore ever get footage of that anyways?


ummmmmmm dude every major news network had access to that classroom that day, it was a public appearance; and he did sit there for 9 mins looking like an ass that was shown worldwide way before Moore put it in his flick. But this isn't about Bush primarily this is about Sicko which you haven't seen.

[yodajazz]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda. ...

It amazes me how certain things are repeated over and till people accept it as logic. Anyone who criticizes something that the powers that like, is branded as hating America. Using this logic historically, anyone who advocated ending slavery in the US when it was legal really hated America. Was someone, arguing that slavery was immoral, obligated to find 'happy slaves' in order to present a balanced argument? I think that ending slavery made the US a better nation.

Most nations, including the US are constantly changing laws and social systems, and order to make them fairer, stimulated business, etc. People who advocate any type of change usually make a public case stating their point of view, like any legal argument does. Then it is up to the other viewpoint to make their case. Our law makers are then supposed to look at both sides to determine public policy.

I too have not seen the movie yet, but I find Roger Moore's films to be morally compelling. But I have always believed that social change can make the world better than it was before. All change is not for the good but the public can always influence which policies stay and what changes, hopefully for the better.

[lahabra1976]

Well yea I haven't seen sicko, but all this talk want me want to see it now. But my guess is whatever he says or shows, the current healthcare system is proabably just going to have to be accepted. Why? Because we as American's hate taxes and adding an universal healthcare system will create more taxes. We also believe in hard work and that those who work hard deserve its benefits. Which means Doctors that spent 8-10 years in countless hrs of study and sleepless nights deserve high rages (especially since Medical school cost so much).

Because we as American's dont want to be taking unsafe drugs so we established the FDA. Which in order for drugs to get approved takes many, many years. First the drug has to go through animal testing and so other drugs companies dont copy their formula, they patent the drug at this stage eventhrough thousands wont make it through this stage. The drugs that do make it have to go through a long process of testing its side effects on humans, than testing its effectiveness, and finally testing it in the clinical world. This entire process can take more than 10 years meaning millions of dollars spent on the drug. And what does that mean for the consumer, high drug prices.

And this is still only a small amount of the medical issues. Doctor's have to pay tons of dollars a year for malpractice insurance so they wont get broke from greedy patients who are sue happy. And yes that means higher surgery cost and such. Medical insurances are paying tons of dollars a year to have these ppl go audit Doctor's charts so they aren't getting "ripped off" and that translates into higher insurance costs. It really just seems like cyclic effects and I am not sure if there is any solution at this point.

But on the bright side some say those who have access to health care get quick access. Its been said that in some of these countries ppl have to wait months to years to see the doctor if isn't urgent. There are low cost clinics opening in various places to aid those who can't afford healthcare.

[Realgirls4me]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda.

Oh my fucking god....did you write that with a straight face?

You have an uncanny way of stealing my exact thoughts, whatsupwithat.

One-sided? When did Michael Moore announce that his work would be objective? And has mtbazz ever seen Fox News, which is actually suppose to present both sides?

Since when is criticism of something or someone considered hatred for it? Have you, mtbazz, ever criticized one such as a young nephew or niece for playing on a dangerous street? Did you not love or care for them?

[arnie666]

To be honest the NHS is not as rosy as he pictures it. Britain is getting more overcrowded... we have an aging population and I don't know if the NHS in it's present form can be sustained. Plus some hospitals have horific waiting times. When I twisted my bollocks playing rugby I had to wait like an hour in casulty to be seen by a doctor and I was climbing the walls in pain puking everywhere. Some people had been waiting four hours with cut heads etc.

He picked a nice looking hospitial in the UK some are not as nice as that. Also my brother was telling me he can't see his Gp without waiting like two weeks. Sure you can get one who doesn't know you quicker but I know what he is saying like. My ex bird's mum was in hospital and she was telling us that most of the toilets in there were caked in sh1te because the cleaners couldn't be arsed to clean it up.

However the system in the states doesn't look perfect either in fact it looks worse. If you are sick you should focus on getting better not if you can pay the huge medical bill.I don't know what the answer is and I suspect Moore is coming from a certain side of the argument.But I have heard septics before talk about their health insurance and all that so in this case I have to give him props for highlighting something that is a scandal.First movie he made that I didn't feel like reaching through the tele screen and glassing the fat cnut.

[Devon]

I too have not seen the movie yet, but I find Roger Moore's films to be morally compelling...

I too was compelled by Roger Moore in Octopussy :) I think films like Sicko, Bowling for Columbine, and The Corporation are beneficial if they inspire conversation and debate on particular issues.

[mph]

I liked the "Mr. Moore is a communist and hates America." comment. If that were true, could you really blame him?

This entire country is almost completely down the shitter. Inflation is at an all-time high, the medical industry is more concerned with money than healing people, we have no energy policy, our government is more concerned with forcing "democracy" on the rest of the world than fixing what's wrong with it's home turf, we cater to people who do not belong here (I'm talking to you border-jumping Mexicans), and our legal and justice systems are completely corroded.

Hell, maybe we could use a communist approach. At least everyone would be on the same level.

(For the record, I am not a communist. Extremely malcontent, maybe bordering on anarchist, but not communist. lol)

[SarahG]

To be honest the NHS is not as rosy as he pictures it. Britain is getting more overcrowded... we have an aging population and I don't know if the NHS in it's present form can be sustained. Plus some hospitals have horific waiting times. When I twisted my bollocks playing rugby I had to wait like an hour in casulty to be seen by a doctor and I was climbing the walls in pain puking everywhere. Some people had been waiting four hours with cut heads etc....

I have had friends in SouthCal end up waiting in ER waiting rooms for over 20 hrs because of how swamped they are with illegals using it for every day medical care... and showing up with their whole families in the process. Just today on yahoo news there was an article about a girl that died in a CA waiting room because it took too long for them to see her... the other patients were calling 911 trying to get her moved in to a different hospitol and 911 was claiming since she was in a hospitol already there is no emergency... bad mistake.

Getting back to universal healthcare... do we really think this is a magic cure all pill? I used to live in Northern NY and I was always amazed how many Canadians used to come to the US, at cost, pay to see our doctors- in cash, so they could get "preventative health care" such as physicals and what not.... all because their at home health care system took ages to get seen for such services.

Your sustainability concern is certainly valid... it wasn't too long ago (what, 2 or 3 years) that all of Ontario had no eye or dental care because their NHS couldn't afford the costs of it... and since NHS was the only game in town for healthcare, no one had any private insurance threw their employers to foot the bill.

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that healthcare systems like NHS and private insurance companies like we have in North America (between the US and Canada) are partly to blame for the high medical costs in terms of prescriptions, services and so on. Think of it in terms of supply and demand... since people can afford to pay more for these things (due to healthcare programs), hospitals, doctors and drug companies can get away with charging more... because all people end up paying is the copay.

If I have a drug company selling DrugX, which lots of people need, and it requires a prescription I can get away with charging $400 a bottle for it because so much of the population will be only paying a $15 copay on it.... now if I get the drug approved by the FDA to be nonprescription... I can't charge $400 and expect the general public to still be buying it. I can remember back when Clariton (sp?) was RX only, I used to get it and one time there was a lapse on my prescription coverage and it cost me $150 USD... today I can get the exact same pill nonrx in any pharmacy for under $20 a box....

One advantage to the American system as it is now, is that you can at least attempt to seek out healthcare that has coverage you need or want based on where you live and who you chose to work for (assuming they will hire you), one of my main NHS-type system concerns is since it is the only game in town, you have nowhere else to go if you dislike what is deemed not covered/elective. I like having options, and although having a federal monopoly doesn't garente there will be problems, it also implies that if there are problems- you're screwed until that futuristic point if/when someone decides to "fix things"

I also can't help but wondering how politics would influence coverage on an American NHS system... would abortions, contraceptives, std medications and other such "socially hot topic" healthcare services be covered? Would they be taken out of the healthcare system every time the republicans gain control in DC? It certainly starts to sound like it would be the recipe for making healthcare access- be it for certain issues- even more disproportional in the population based on SEC/class.

[mtbazz]

"And did you ever ask yourself why it takes that long Mtbazz??? FDA corruption maybe??? Im pretty familiar with the section 8 and medical assistance here in PA, and I can tell you without a doubt the Big Pharma = thieves and brigands."

Have you ever been part of the drug discovery process from start to finish ? I have.....Do you have any idea at all how much it costs to develop a drug ?
From the start of an idea to get to the first stages of clinical trials takes on avergage 5-7 years of pure lab research, thats if everything goes smoothly, and there are competent scientists on the program. It has nothing to do with "FDA corruption" or government buracracies....Drug development/discovery is an expensive, risky business, and I dont begrudge any company from trying to make a REASONABLE profit (key word is reasonable) from engaging in such a venture...Im not saying that pharma companies are saints...Ive seen my share of unethical behavior in the business, but at the same time Ive seen (from my company at least), some fairly generous acts...


Fox news? You bet I watch it...Along with CNN, MSNBC, etc..Im a news junky, but am more than capable of making up my own mind. All Mr. Moore does is present an extremely one sided view, with things often times taken out of context....I have no respect for guys like that...

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

All Mr. Moore does is present an extremely one sided view, with things often times taken out of context....I have no respect for guys like that...

So it would be safe to say that you also have no respect for George Bush Jr.?

[mtbazz]

"So it would be safe to say that you also have no respect for George Bush Jr.?"

Howd we go from Moore to Bush ???
Im not a "kool-aid drinker"....George has made some mistakes, and done some stupid blunders, but I still like him for some reason.....All I'll say is he would have been better off just toppling the taliban and leaving Iraq alone...

Also, before someone asks, Im not a big Sean Hannity fan either.....he is intelligent and makes some good points, but he is just too much of an attack dog for the right to suit me....

Well, thats about it from this dope smoking, tranny loving, grateful dead fan....

[MonsieurValentine]

have you ever noticed that michael moore supporters have that same fiery passion as mac users.

[Cuchulain]

Well, JWBL, you've stirred up a real shitstorm here. Good for you! I'd like to think that, in my own little way, I've played a part. And so, "once more unto the breach": Some posters here have accused Michael Moore of being biased. I say "so what?" If he's biased, at least he's biased in favor of people instead of corporate profits at any cost. Personally, I want to see someone attack the REICH-wing thugs head on. I want someone to hammer them the way O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, FAUX 'News' and the rightwing think tanks attack the left. When theres a heavy thumb on one side of the scales of justice, maybe we need a heavy thumb on the other side to balance things out.

There's been a lot of talk here about the possible cost and inefficiency of a national health care plan. I pointed out in my first post that Medicare is a national single payer system that has an overhead cost of about 3% as opposed to the insurance industry's average of 22 - 31%, one set of forms and procedures for Medicare vs. all the different ones in the for-profit system. Sounds cheaper and more efficient to me. So why not Medicare for all? Would it be perfect? No, nothing is; but it would be an improvement, a step in the right direction.

The cost of developing new drugs has been brought up a few times. Sure, that requires a huge investment, but why do Americans pay so much more for our drugs than other nations? Aren't the pharmacutical companies making a profit in other countries? Of course they are, but their gigantic lobbying budgets allow them to get away with making bigger profits here, including what they charge Medicare. I won't spiral off into a discussion of corporate profit vs corporate responsiblity to the public, but that's something everyone needs to think about.

"We the People" have been getting the short end of the stick ever since Reagan and corporate profit uber alles crowd gained control. Having said that, I'm going out to see if I can find a copy of 'Sicko'. Peace.

[SarahG]

There's been a lot of talk here about the possible cost and inefficiency of a national health care plan. I pointed out in my first post that Medicare is a national single payer system that has an overhead cost of about 3% as opposed to the insurance industry's average of 22 - 31%, one set of forms and procedures for Medicare vs. all the different ones in the for-profit system. Sounds cheaper and more efficient to me. So why not Medicare for all? Would it be perfect? No, nothing is; but it would be an improvement, a step in the right direction.

But medicare would not be medicare if it were extended to the entire population. The dynamics would change if the entire country used it and only it for all their healthcare coverage.

Do you really think the politicans would preserve medicare as it is now and just "expand it so every uses it and only it"? You don't see them playing politics with what is covered to appeal to certain religious factions? You don't see it as becoming over complicated due to lobbyist influence?

I think one of the saving graces for medicare is the fact that the entire population *doesn't* use it. Just how much deprivatizing are we proposing when we're talking about federal healthcare?

Just a system to help people pay for things? Merging all our doctors/hospitals/etc into one big federal program? Merging and deprivatizing the pharmaceutical companies so as to be part of the federal gov?

If it is solely a system to help people pay for services, drugs, etc we have already seen the effect of lobbyist intervention threw the senior prescription drug plans brought about (what, a couple years ago now). If it is including the facilities used to conduct such services I can't help but wonder if it would spiral downward into a VA like system that is good intentioned but ineffective at best.

If the feds can't take care of merely our nation's veterans' healthcare, how could we possibly expect the federal government to be able to do the same (or better) for the whole population?

[Legend]

1st off I want to say to Legend, I noticed after I made this thread you'd made one with the exact same name, it was early in the a.m. and I was ½ asleep but felt the need to make one up instead of doing a search

anyone that wants to see that thread
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=20887

continuing on I have a question: Are we discussing the film and it's points or the creator and his beliefs????

I am not going to attack anyone, you all are entitled to your opinions but from some of the replies I read you seemed to base your replies on 'hearsay' whereas (and it may have just purely been his view and his view alone but that's what filmmakers do show things from the view they want the audience to see) Moore went to several locations and showed the systems and how they worked...............

I'm honestly fascinated how this jumped from the topic of the film to an attack on Michael Moore, wow!!!!!!!!!!!

Either way I appreciate the replies, Legend (my bad I was exhausted, lol), and keep it coming. I know we have a few Canadians on HA, I can't wait to hear them chime in on this, not to mention some of our European HA members..................


Don't worry about it JWBL as long as the issue is getting discuss my thread has since died out,the people can hate moore's films and his personal view's all you want but on this issue you really can't attack him for speaking the truth, you know you have a problem when terrorist get better treatment then 911 workers which he details in his film.

[nunspa]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda.

Oh my fucking god....did you write that with a straight face?

Ummm

I'm from cuba... lets just say he is FULL OF SHIT...

Did you know that right now, in cuba.. if you are over 80 years old you don’t get medical care.. Because it's too expensive...

did you know that in France and England if you are born too early they will not even try and save you, because it costs too much.

Do research on socialized heath care before you want it so bad.. 4 week wait to get a hip replacement... my dad got one here in the US in a week. Have a broken arm in Cuba? You need to wait 4 to 5 days to get it in a cast. Here I broke my arm, I was set and in a cast in 12 hours.

Did you know there are types of cancer that some nations don’t even treat because its too expensive?

Why do you think people come to the US from around the world to get surgery?


Here are some links you can read for yourself

http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletter/catosletterv3n1.pdf

http://www.cato.org/dailys/9-23-96.html

http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html

http://www.novatownhall.com/blog/2007/06/the_joys_of_socialized_medicin.php

[Realgirls4me]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda.

Oh my fucking god....did you write that with a straight face?

Ummm

I'm from cuba... lets just say he is FULL OF SHIT...

Did you know that right now, in cuba.. if you are over 80 years old you don’t get medical care.. Because it's too expensive...

did you know that in France and England if you are born too early they will not even try and save you, because it costs too much.

Do research on socialized heath care before you want it so bad.. 4 week wait to get a hip replacement... my dad got one here in the US in a week. Have a broken arm in Cuba? You need to wait 4 to 5 days to get it in a cast. Here I broke my arm, I was set and in a cast in 12 hours.

Did you know there are types of cancer that some nations don’t even treat because its too expensive?

Why do you think people come to the US from around the world to get surgery?


Here are some links you can read for yourself

http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletter/catosletterv3n1.pdf

http://www.cato.org/dailys/9-23-96.html

http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html

http://www.novatownhall.com/blog/2007/06/the_joys_of_socialized_medicin.php


I'm from the United States and did you know I believe you are full of shit? And I'm not simply talking about having Rightwing think tanks to bolster your one-sided position.

So let me see if I have this right? If one is too old, or too young, in the examples you've provided, one is basically dead. Is that it? Any more myths you care to dispense? Care to tell me how it flourished under Bautista, or your thoughts on the elder Bush tightening the embargo during his administration to Cuba that reined in what little medicine made it to that country anyway? Did your Cato link cover that? Your whole post is one big drivel of shit.

It's interesting you cite costs, but fail to mention anything about the tens of millions of Americans out priced out of coverage in this their own country, as well as the the miilions more under insured. Care to provide an answer to the close to 50 million in this country without coverage, thus accessability, or how the profit motive meshes with the Hippocratic oath?

By the way, care to hear about my hip issues? Ill be glad to tell you how I have to jump through loops (authorizations, referrals, clearances, denials, etc) to appease the beancounters that have taken over my HMO plan, and I supposedly have a great health plan from what I understand.

The myths that have been perpetrated in here (that we roll out the red carpet for illegals while denying our own, or that the private market ALWAYS works and is more efficient, etc) so far are, well, sickening. So you guys who prefer the status quo really believe the private market is the answer to everything, huh? The almighty profit motive trumps the full coverage of our fellow citizens, is that it?

[Realgirls4me]

Ack, dual posts. ...What was I doing, besides being distracted by the Tonight Show?


:)

[SarahG]

Did you know there are types of cancer that some nations don’t even treat because its too expensive?

I dunno, I have mixed feelings here... there are situations where there really is nothing medical science- as things are now- can do anything for a patient... so I can understand in those types of cases, a healthcare program refusing to pay for trying anyway.... likewise there are doctors that will see certain extreme cases and refuse to even treat the patient because there just isn't any chance. I don't see this as a debate over socialized healthcare but one over when to throw the towl in. Is it unethical for a medical professional to take someone terminally ill aside and say "look, there is nothing we can do at all here... why don't we send you to a hospice, load you so high up on painkillers to keep you comfortable and get everything planed to be as easy for everyone involved as possible"?



The myths that have been perpetrated in here (that we roll out the red carpet for illegals while denying our own, or that the private market ALWAYS works and is more efficient, etc) so far are, well, sickening. So you guys who prefer the status quo really believe the private market is the answer to everything, huh? The almighty profit motive trumps the full coverage of our fellow citizens, is that it?

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the private market "is thee answer to everything"- I know I have been trying to make the case that both systems are fundamentally kaput and neither will be a magic cure to all the healthcare problems that exists in this country or ones similar to it which have adopted socialized healthcare for their entire populations...

Having been extensively fimilar with our nation's veteran affairs system I find the notion that the feds can pull off socialized healthcare and have it be a magic cure unsettling and unrealistic at best. Our society at least likes to pretend that our veterans are important heroes who deserve respect and to be taken care of in exchange for the work they have done serving the nation... and yet the VA is the first place to get cuts whenever the budget gets tight, it is internationally known to be a broken system... and is riddled with so many problems that our veterans generally, if they can afford it, steer clear from the VA hospitals as much as they can.

My way of describing our VA system is that it is a good intentioned system full of people who WANT to help our veterans. It has one of the best medical documentation systems possibly in the world, and a veteran can walk into any VA anywhere and have complete access to all their medical files in an instant threw their computer system.... but good intentions alone isn't enough and I could spend all day talking about problems the VA system has been suffering- going back several administrations (this isn't something to blame on Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr or anyone else...).

[mustang]

I don't listen to Moore anymore. He is a hypocrite!!!! He charges 20-30,000 dollars to speak to college kids! He lives in a million dollar penthouse in NYC and sends his kid to one of the most expensive private schools in the country. The he throws on his blue collar baseball cap and members only jacket like we are supposed to believe that he is one of the REGULAR guys. All he is doing is getting rich making these movies. I don't see him giving anything back. How about speaking to kids for free Mr Moore? .......How about that!!! I hate people who use mis-fortune to build their fortune! They are the sickest bastards out there.Don't give that bastard one red nickel of your money!

[Felicia Katt]

Our health care system, while needing some amount of overhaul, isnt all that bad. Many of those other countries that get touted as having better health care systems are fairly socialist, and as a result the citizens of those countries are heavily taxed in order to pay for the health care of others....

I posted this in the other thread, but it bears repeating here

The United States spends more per person on health care than any other country, yet in overall quality its care ranks 37th in the world. Infant mortality rates here are higher than virtually every other western country. Health care costs in the US are rising at the twice the level of inflation. They accounted for 15.5% of the nation's economy in 2005, compared with 13.2% in 2002 Health care insurance company profits are increasing at an even greater rate than prices are rising. Per capita health care spending in the United States on average is double that of Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Britain, which provide universal health coverage to residents. In the US most medical services, materials, technologies and drugs are more expensive than in other industrialized countries. By way of example, medical procedures costs here are three times as high as in Canada.

We spend more per person, provide inferior care and have in excess of 40 million people without any coverage. Our system is all that bad and is in desperate need of major reform.

FK

[Felicia Katt]

Also, if there is any big pharma bashing in there about their profits, I can shed some insight. I work in big pharma, and the corporate execs ARE grossly overpaid and, and some of them incompetent...However, one reason drugs are expensive is because of the amount of money it takes to develop tham. From start to finish it takes an average of ten years to bring a drug to market. To give you a clue to the expenses involved, the research I do for the drugs getting developed in the program I am assigned to costs an average of 10k-12k per month. That just includes materials to conduct experiments, it does not include my salary. Thats 100k-120k per year spent by one scientist in one program. There are 12 other scientists assigned to my project who probably spend close tot hat amount. So it really does take millions, sometimes billions to developa drug. Thats money big pharma does have a right to get back, they are ultiamtely in business to make money, not to act as a charity...

I had posted this before too, but again its seems appropriate to repeat it.

the drug companies are only interested in profits and theirs are the highest of any companies out there. The nine largest pharma giants raked in $30.6 billion in 2001 profits. During the past decade, drug firms’ profits represented an 18.5 percent return on revenue or 5.6 times the median return (3.3 percent) of Fortune 500 companies.

Its going to take a lot more than a spoonful of sugar to get me to swallow your opinion in this area.

FK

[Realgirls4me]

Mustang:

Actually, he gives a lot to charity. A lot.

So any self made millionaire advocating change for the lower and middle classes must always live as a pauper in order to gain credibility or respectibility in your eyes? What a crock. You probably have more possessions than four-fifths of the world, do you live like Mother Theresa so others can have?

... Rush makes over 20 million a year popping off lies like he pops pills; O'Reilly, 10 million, while sexually harrassing the help. Do you feel the same about them? I mean, they like to claim they speak for the little guy and the common man, so shouldn't they also live below their means sans the big cars and mansions? They aren't hypocrites?

Just want to see if you're consistent.

[mustang]

Mustang:

Actually, he gives a lot to charity. A lot.

So any self made millionaire advocating change for the lower and middle classes must always live as a pauper in order to gain credibility or respectibility in your eyes? What a crock. You probably have more possessions than four-fifths of the world, do you live like Mother Theresa so others can have?

... Rush makes over 20 million a year popping off lies like he pops pills; O'Reilly, 10 million, while sexually harrassing the help. Do you feel the same about them? I mean, they like to claim they speak for the little guy and the common man, so shouldn't they also live below their means sans the big cars and mansions? They aren't hypocrites?

Just want to see if you're consistent.





Do your research!!! I don't care if the guy makes a little money.What I care about is for someone who supposedly cares so much about issues.......charging 18-22 year olds 30,000 dollars to speak to them for an hour is wrong. He doesn't need that money. Educate them for free if you are so passionate about it.

Also.....He is from small suburb that is 90% white and upper middle class......Yet he went to downtown Flint,Michigan claiming that is where he is from.He is from 30 minutes outside there. I have a problem with a guy who mis-leads people into believing that he is part of them.

The truth is......If you have travelled enough in this world you would know we don't have it all that bad.....yeah...we could make some improvements,but overall,it's not that bad.China....Germany....and just about every other country in the world that is socialist or communist is speeding toward capitalism........meanwhile we are pushing for what they are all running away from.

The real reason why health care is so expensive in this country is the lawsuits!! Ask a doctor how much they have to pay for liability insurance a year!! Last I checked some of them were approaching 6 figures! So when that specialist that you never saw charges you $300 for looking at your chart for 5 minutes they are just paying the bills. My insurance premiums are just insane right now.I am fairly young,healthy,and athletic and I pay 200 a month......and it's still co-pay! lol. In a country where 12 of your peers sit in a room and listen to to a guy trying to sue a family because he broke into their house.......got stuck in the garage for 2 days with no food.....and they vote in favor of him. Stupid things like that are the reason we are going down hill so quickly.

Extreme liberals are the reason you can sue anyone for anything.They believe people have a right to......Extreme conservatives are just as bad.....I AM RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE!! I think lawsuits....propaganda....and people bullying people into their beliefs is the problem with our country and liberals do it just as much as conservatives. Try going to San Fran and saying you don't believe in same sex marriages and see what happens to you!(not my opinion just making a point). I dated a liberal girl from San Fran who thought that men took advantage of women in strip clubs and porn and that's why she hated them.When I stated how women in porn make way more money and I thought that some poor clown that strollls into a place empties his pockets for a woman he can't have was a woman taking advantage of a man she was furious. We stopped talking over that. I was willing to accept her opinion but she wasn't willing to accept mine...............Yet she was the liberal arts student from San Fran...lol. Go figure!

[MonsieurValentine]

i have a head ache.

[Vicki Richter]

I think the people who feel one way should go live in the North, and people who feel another way should go live in the South. I personally would prefer the South because the weather is nicer in California and/or Florida and then I wouldn't have to move.

Either way, people are just sheep doing nothing about anything. When there is a coup or something interesting, then I think I might be inclined to get involved, do naked campaigning, etc. Other than that, it really is just lip service.

People don't decide votes, propaganda decides votes. Who is that Mormon guy who is starting to beat Juliani in the polls? It's only because he has more money. So therefore:

If money = votes and votes = political power, then simple reason deduces that money = political power. If you are saying "duh" right now, then why do we tolerate it? It's because we are divided and we are sheep. It would be interesting if campaigning, lobbying, etc was prohibited and everything was broken down into daily debates on national television on all manners of issues. Why cater a specific message to the Tobacco Industry, NRA, ERA, NAACP, Christian Church of America, etc and another message to some other group. Just do it in a manner that everyone has easy access to.

Also, what is up with the President getting to spend almost a whole year of his four year term worrying about getting re-elected? I mean are we paying the guy to go fly around talking to people about nonsense or are we paying him to make decisions and do a job. There should be more than enough on a President's plate to occupy a full-time workload.

I think the problem with the country is we are too divisive and we don't focus on the real core issues - together. The political system is very corrupt. I've seen hardcore liberals and republicans start to acknowledge this over the past year. As long as we argue amongst ourselves nothing gets done.

[Jericho]

did you know that in France and England if you are born too early they will not even try and save you, because it costs too much.



I can't let that go.
I don't know where you got it from, but it's utter bollox.

[tsmandy]

Whether or not one likes Michael Moore is beyond irrelevant. What is relevant is the reality on the ground. The reality that if you are poor, working class, anything but wealthy, in the US you are fucked. I pay $150 to the doc just so she will sign off on a scrip refill for my hormones. My friends get hit by cars and lose everything they have to pay for ambulance bills, or refuse care because they know that a concussion and a broken collar bone are not worth the thousands of dollars.

I have no health insurance. If I get sick, I try to tough it out. What does it mean for publich health when 40-50 million Americans are in the same boat? What happens when the next serious epidemic strikes? How can you possibly contain a disease when a quarter of the pop has no access to medical care?

Medical bills are the number one cause of homelessness and bankruptcy in this country. That ought to make you wonder.

[SarahG]

The real reason why health care is so expensive in this country is the lawsuits!! Ask a doctor how much they have to pay for liability insurance a year!! Last I checked some of them were approaching 6 figures! So when that specialist that you never saw charges you $300 for looking at your chart for 5 minutes they are just paying the bills. My insurance premiums are just insane right now.I am fairly young,healthy,and athletic and I pay 200 a month......and it's still co-pay! lol. In a country where 12 of your peers sit in a room and listen to to a guy trying to sue a family because he broke into their house.......got stuck in the garage for 2 days with no food.....and they vote in favor of him. Stupid things like that are the reason we are going down hill so quickly.


Gee, I always thought it was all those medical mistakes that occur in this country every year. Having had three relatives killed by doctors not knowing or caring what they're doing, I have serious problems with any argument that states or implies that all of these lawsuits are/were baseless.

Simply put the lawsuits like that with the McDonalds coffee get more publicity because it gets ratings, and if it gets ratings it gets media coverage.

But the McD coffee story is going to be cold comfort if you're ever in a car wreck and wakeup to find the hospital you were sent to accidentally removed the wrong leg. One of my close friends had breast cancer and the surgeons ended up taking out the wrong breast... she still had to go in to get the other one removed, you going to tell her (or her partner) that because lawsuits cost the industry money, they should only get the cost of a set of implants to "try to make her look normal again"?

Malpractice is a huge concern and should be despite which flavor of a healthcare system we impose on the citizens.

[Realgirls4me]

Mustang:

Actually, he gives a lot to charity. A lot.

So any self made millionaire advocating change for the lower and middle classes must always live as a pauper in order to gain credibility or respectibility in your eyes? What a crock. You probably have more possessions than four-fifths of the world, do you live like Mother Theresa so others can have?

... Rush makes over 20 million a year popping off lies like he pops pills; O'Reilly, 10 million, while sexually harrassing the help. Do you feel the same about them? I mean, they like to claim they speak for the little guy and the common man, so shouldn't they also live below their means sans the big cars and mansions? They aren't hypocrites?

Just want to see if you're consistent.





Do your research!!! I don't care if the guy makes a little money.What I care about is for someone who supposedly cares so much about issues.......charging 18-22 year olds 30,000 dollars to speak to them for an hour is wrong. He doesn't need that money. Educate them for free if you are so passionate about it.

Also.....He is from small suburb that is 90% white and upper middle class......Yet he went to downtown Flint,Michigan claiming that is where he is from.He is from 30 minutes outside there. I have a problem with a guy who mis-leads people into believing that he is part of them.

The truth is......If you have travelled enough in this world you would know we don't have it all that bad.....yeah...we could make some improvements,but overall,it's not that bad.China....Germany....and just about every other country in the world that is socialist or communist is speeding toward capitalism........meanwhile we are pushing for what they are all running away from.

The real reason why health care is so expensive in this country is the lawsuits!! Ask a doctor how much they have to pay for liability insurance a year!! Last I checked some of them were approaching 6 figures! So when that specialist that you never saw charges you $300 for looking at your chart for 5 minutes they are just paying the bills. My insurance premiums are just insane right now.I am fairly young,healthy,and athletic and I pay 200 a month......and it's still co-pay! lol. In a country where 12 of your peers sit in a room and listen to to a guy trying to sue a family because he broke into their house.......got stuck in the garage for 2 days with no food.....and they vote in favor of him. Stupid things like that are the reason we are going down hill so quickly.

Extreme liberals are the reason you can sue anyone for anything.They believe people have a right to......Extreme conservatives are just as bad.....I AM RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE!! I think lawsuits....propaganda....and people bullying people into their beliefs is the problem with our country and liberals do it just as much as conservatives. Try going to San Fran and saying you don't believe in same sex marriages and see what happens to you!(not my opinion just making a point). I dated a liberal girl from San Fran who thought that men took advantage of women in strip clubs and porn and that's why she hated them.When I stated how women in porn make way more money and I thought that some poor clown that strollls into a place empties his pockets for a woman he can't have was a woman taking advantage of a man she was furious. We stopped talking over that. I was willing to accept her opinion but she wasn't willing to accept mine...............Yet she was the liberal arts student from San Fran...lol. Go figure!

I noticed that your little tirade carefully avoided commenting on Rush and O'Reilly. So their propaganda -- AND IT IS PROPAGANDA -- is okay with you, and when they charge the folks for a speech, that's alright?

Yeah, anecdotes always work with me.

[SkyTwo]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda. Our health care system, while needing some amount of overhaul, isnt all that bad. Many of those other countries that get touted as having better health care systems are fairly socialist, and as a result the citizens of those countries are heavily taxed in order to pay for the health care of others...Canada is reported to have a better health care system than us, but from what Ive heard there are long waits to get some treatments up there, as a result some canadians come down here for treatment.

Also, if there is any big pharma bashing in there about their profits, I can shed some insight. I work in big pharma, and the corporate execs ARE grossly overpaid and, and some of them incompetent...However, one reason drugs are expensive is because of the amount of money it takes to develop tham. From start to finish it takes an average of ten years to bring a drug to market. To give you a clue to the expenses involved, the research I do for the drugs getting developed in the program I am assigned to costs an average of 10k-12k per month. That just includes materials to conduct experiments, it does not include my salary. Thats 100k-120k per year spent by one scientist in one program. There are 12 other scientists assigned to my project who probably spend close tot hat amount. So it really does take millions, sometimes billions to developa drug. Thats money big pharma does have a right to get back, they are ultiamtely in business to make money, not to act as a charity...

Dont get me wrong, there are flaws in our healthcare that need to be addresed, but for the most part, people here have it pretty good in terms of healthcare. As for Big Pharma, they are not all that evil, but they have flaws also....The execs are grossly overpaid, and some of them are downright incompetent and pull stunts that are borderline (if not outright) illegal...

I'd use the eye-rolling icon ten times or so, but I'd rather just say... wake up, you moron. (Not even an exclamation point! How about that?)

1. "Michael Moore is a communist and hates America." What can I even say about that except that I've only heard that sort of idiocy two times in my life: on the elementary school playground during the last days of the Cold War, and under Bush. Stupefying. It's gone from being a fourth-grade insult to acceptable "political dialogue."

2. "one reason drugs are expensive is because of the amount of money it takes to develop tham. " This is just embarrassing. It's the very argument that Big Pharma lobbyists have been using for a decade. The same period in which they've started spending hundreds of millions annually on slick marketing. TV ads, magazine ads, and the legions of salesmen-- Oops! "Drug Reps"-- who blanket the nation buying catered lunches for doctors' offices so they can hand out business cards. Not to mention the fact that the companies who use this excuse in America can somehow afford to discount their prices when trying to corner foreign markets. Our poor and uninsured are subsidizing that as well, of course.

3. "To give you a clue to the expenses involved, the research I do for the drugs getting developed in the program I am assigned to costs an average of 10k-12k per month. That just includes materials to conduct experiments, it does not include my salary. Thats 100k-120k per year spent by one scientist in one program. " Gosh golly wow! That's a whole lotta money! Except for the fact that it's peanuts compared to the billions these companies are raking in. If these companies axed their Super Bowl commercials, they could probably afford a few dozen more full-time research scientists! Wouldn't that be a great way to show their devotion to helping mankind through valuable research? (Man, this guy's an idiot.)

In a way, it's cute to see someone so puppy-like that he's more than eager to ignore something as simple as a balance sheet in deference to his master's voice. It's also pathetic. Not a strong enough word, that, but I've wasted enough time on someone who's most coherent response will be nothing more than "Duuuhhhh.... well yore a Kommy. Duh-huh-huh."

[BlackAdder]

In short Mtbazz, FK, Skytwo and I have presented facts which make your case untenable...I sir, declare shenanigans.


As for the medical malpractice, i can also attest to that first hand. My ex had an ectopic pregnancy that ruptured...we waited 10 hours(4 in the morning mind you!) before she recieved treatment(all the sudden it was like she was gonna die after hours and hours of waiting) and not only did they remove the tube which could have been repaired by any competent surgeon(they let an intern perform the operation), they removed the ovary as well......Shes got a pending case for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. And its well deserved.

Also, my friend Seth works at Hahneman which is a teaching hospital, and the stories hes told me ...ugh.......lets say I avoid medical care and doctors like plague carriers....scary stuff. Im glad im relatively healthy. I fail to see how keeping a SURGEON awake for 30+ hours teaches anyone anything.....Wouldnt you want YOUR surgeon fresh and well rested???

[mustang]

Realgirls4me.........If you didn't notice I said I am not a fan of either side. I don't listen to propaganda! I study and form my own opinion.My grandmother and 4 of her seven children including my mother all work in the medical field so I understand how things work. Doctors are not going to take less money and people aren't going to quit taking them to court as you see here.So what do you suggest is the answer. The only answer is docking our pay to make up the difference.....aka Communism/Socialism.It's a racket I know.....but the problems come from all areas. We all have to take responsibilty for how things are these days.

[odelay24]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda. Our health care system, while needing some amount of overhaul, isnt all that bad. Many of those other countries that get touted as having better health care systems are fairly socialist, and as a result the citizens of those countries are heavily taxed in order to pay for the health care of others...Canada is reported to have a better health care system than us, but from what Ive heard there are long waits to get some treatments up there, as a result some canadians come down here for treatment.

Also, if there is any big pharma bashing in there about their profits, I can shed some insight. I work in big pharma, and the corporate execs ARE grossly overpaid and, and some of them incompetent...However, one reason drugs are expensive is because of the amount of money it takes to develop tham. From start to finish it takes an average of ten years to bring a drug to market. To give you a clue to the expenses involved, the research I do for the drugs getting developed in the program I am assigned to costs an average of 10k-12k per month. That just includes materials to conduct experiments, it does not include my salary. Thats 100k-120k per year spent by one scientist in one program. There are 12 other scientists assigned to my project who probably spend close tot hat amount. So it really does take millions, sometimes billions to developa drug. Thats money big pharma does have a right to get back, they are ultiamtely in business to make money, not to act as a charity...

Dont get me wrong, there are flaws in our healthcare that need to be addresed, but for the most part, people here have it pretty good in terms of healthcare. As for Big Pharma, they are not all that evil, but they have flaws also....The execs are grossly overpaid, and some of them are downright incompetent and pull stunts that are borderline (if not outright) illegal...


Yeah his stuff is one sided, but that's how an arguement works. He's just stating his case.
As for saying your healthcare system 'isn't all that bad', I think you should be ashamed that there are people in your country that are going to die just because they can't afford medicine.
Obviously we have to pay tax for it, but it's not like only poor people get sick; everyone gets sick. So you'll end up paying for yourself too.

By the way, Michael Moore is not a communist. He may have some socialist ideals, but on the whole, he is not a communist.
Stating THAT is propaganda.

[austinjohn1]

one word, CANADA. lol, ive watched moore since i was a little kid, he had his own show on i think bravo was it ?
i still remember when he got an interview with the head of nike that was an eye opener for that guy i bet !!!!

[austinjohn1]

Either way, people are just sheep doing nothing about anything. When there is a coup or something interesting, then I think I might be inclined to get involved, do naked campaigning, etc. Other than that, it really is just lip service.

People don't decide votes, propaganda decides votes. Who is that Mormon guy who is starting to beat Juliani in the polls? It's only because he has more money. So therefore:

If money = votes and votes = political power, then simple reason deduces that money = political power. If you are saying "duh" right now, then why do we tolerate it? It's because we are divided and we are sheep. It would be interesting if campaigning, lobbying, etc was prohibited and everything was broken down into daily debates on national television on all manners of issues. Why cater a specific message to the Tobacco Industry, NRA, ERA, NAACP, Christian Church of America, etc and another message to some other group. Just do it in a manner that everyone has easy access to.


To put it simply, I love the way you think.
and you doing naked protest would stop everyone in their tracks, they would be freaking out, there would be cum epidemics and random sex acts on the street lol. joking :lol:

[SkyTwo]

Well, JWBL, you've stirred up a real shitstorm here. Good for you! I'd like to think that, in my own little way, I've played a part. And so, "once more unto the breach": Some posters here have accused Michael Moore of being biased. I say "so what?" If he's biased, at least he's biased in favor of people instead of corporate profits at any cost. Personally, I want to see someone attack the REICH-wing thugs head on. I want someone to hammer them the way O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, FAUX 'News' and the rightwing think tanks attack the left. When theres a heavy thumb on one side of the scales of justice, maybe we need a heavy thumb on the other side to balance things out.

There's been a lot of talk here about the possible cost and inefficiency of a national health care plan. I pointed out in my first post that Medicare is a national single payer system that has an overhead cost of about 3% as opposed to the insurance industry's average of 22 - 31%, one set of forms and procedures for Medicare vs. all the different ones in the for-profit system. Sounds cheaper and more efficient to me. So why not Medicare for all? Would it be perfect? No, nothing is; but it would be an improvement, a step in the right direction.

The cost of developing new drugs has been brought up a few times. Sure, that requires a huge investment, but why do Americans pay so much more for our drugs than other nations? Aren't the pharmacutical companies making a profit in other countries? Of course they are, but their gigantic lobbying budgets allow them to get away with making bigger profits here, including what they charge Medicare. I won't spiral off into a discussion of corporate profit vs corporate responsiblity to the public, but that's something everyone needs to think about.

"We the People" have been getting the short end of the stick ever since Reagan and corporate profit uber alles crowd gained control. Having said that, I'm going out to see if I can find a copy of 'Sicko'. Peace.

Without picking through the whole thing, I'll just say 'nicely done.'

[taniatv]

What surprised me about the show is how the American population were scared off the idea of a national health service by the record/speech that Ronald Reagan put out saying it was the first step to a Communist state etc.
There was no need for Moore's juxtaposition of the Communist propaganda library film, the speech in itself was point made enough. It's like Tony Benn said, choose who is in power in the Uk the NHS is safe he even positively quoted Margaret Thatcher and you cacn't get more anti-socialist than Lady Thatch!... and you can't get more anti Thatcher than Benn. In other words choose where one stands politically in the Uk they all agree on keeping the NHS.
From my experience the Americans who are against the idea of a national health service is because of the socialist connotations attached to it. Most of my friends here want it though. I can't get my head round the socialist link, one can get free library books here, why not health care.
I had to laugh when Moore was walking round the hospital in the Uk asking people how much their treatment was. The idea of paying for health care in the Uk is completely ludicrous...but of course he knew that.
The show deals with a very serious issue and I only wished Moore would have tightened it up and not let it slip leaving some segments of the show easy targets for the anti NHS people in the States...that's all some people will remember it for and forget other important issues.

[Cuchulain]

"He is from small suburb that is 90% white and upper middle class"-
Born in Flint, Michigan, Michael Moore grew up in the city of Davison. At the time the neighboring city of Flint was home to many General Motors factories, where his mother was a secretary, and both his father and grandfather were auto workers. His uncle was one of the founders of the United Automobile Workers labor union and participated in the famous Flint Sit-Down Strike. His mother died recently but his entire family still resides in Davison. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moore

"The only answer is docking our pay to make up the difference.....aka Communism/Socialism." Those of us who have health care are paying for it now, through direct employer contribution, voluntary payroll deductions or direct payment to an insurance company. BUT, we're paying an inflated price that covers the bloated profits of the insurance industry and their marketing budget. If we all used a single payer not for profit system like Medicare do you really think it would cost you more?

Btw, a single payer system is NOT socialized medicine. The hospitals and doctors remain independant. You go to the doctor/hospital of your choice, present your Medicare card and they send the bill to Medicare. We do, however, have a long standing socialized medical system in America - the VA, where the government actually runs the hospitals.

[downblow]

I'm watching this Moore flick right now, it's probably been discussed on here already but this shit really woke me up to the healthcare system here in the states. This might sound fucked up but this shit makes me want to live elsewhere, I'm appalled by what I'm hearing, seeing, & reading and I'm only ½ way through the flick........................

Our health care is covered by our tax dollars here in Canada.
I lived for a short time in the United States and found the conditions in some hospitals to be the same as the ones in Toronto.
Recently a CBC television program called marketplace did a show on unsanitary conditions in hospitals and it was shocking to watch the undercover films they had.
According to stats Can there is over 5000 hospital related infections that causes death every year.
I don't know if you all remember years ago Toronto had a huge infectious disease issue. It was called S.A.R.S
Well that disease only progressed the way it did because the doctors and nurses did not follow proper medical procedures. Funny how they went on about the doctors and nurses putting in so much time and risking their lives but it was their own co-workers that caused the problem in the first place.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hospital-infections/

[tsmandy]

2. "one reason drugs are expensive is because of the amount of money it takes to develop tham. " This is just embarrassing. It's the very argument that Big Pharma lobbyists have been using for a decade. The same period in which they've started spending hundreds of millions annually on slick marketing. TV ads, magazine ads, and the legions of salesmen-- Oops! "Drug Reps"-- who blanket the nation buying catered lunches for doctors' offices so they can hand out business cards. Not to mention the fact that the companies who use this excuse in America can somehow afford to discount their prices when trying to corner foreign markets. Our poor and uninsured are subsidizing that as well, of course.

3. "To give you a clue to the expenses involved, the research I do for the drugs getting developed in the program I am assigned to costs an average of 10k-12k per month. That just includes materials to conduct experiments, it does not include my salary. Thats 100k-120k per year spent by one scientist in one program. " Gosh golly wow! That's a whole lotta money! Except for the fact that it's peanuts compared to the billions these companies are raking in. If these companies axed their Super Bowl commercials, they could probably afford a few dozen more full-time research scientists! Wouldn't that be a great way to show their devotion to helping mankind through valuable research? (Man, this guy's an idiot.)

In a way, it's cute to see someone so puppy-like that he's more than eager to ignore something as simple as a balance sheet in deference to his master's voice. It's also pathetic. Not a strong enough word, that, but I've wasted enough time on someone who's most coherent response will be nothing more than "Duuuhhhh.... well yore a Kommy. Duh-huh-huh."

In fact the numbers just destroy the R&D argument. First off, Big pharma spends twice the amount on marketing, advertising and promotion than it does on R&D. Second, a huge portion of R&D is either directly or indirectly subsidized by the federal government. This is less an argument for maintaining a horrendously inequitable medical system, than throwing every one of their asses in jail for fraud and murder.

[Felicia Katt]

In fact the numbers just destroy the R&D argument. First off, Big pharma spends twice the amount on marketing, advertising and promotion than it does on R&D. Second, a huge portion of R&D is either directly or indirectly subsidized by the federal government. This is less an argument for maintaining a horrendously inequitable medical system, than throwing every one of their asses in jail for fraud and murder.

Even the R and D numbers are misleading. There are, what, 5 or 6 different pills for erectile dysfunction, and at least that many for allergies and hair loss and heartburn and restless legs, where other much more serious, but less pervasive illnesses go begging for research into remedies, or worse, have working ones discontinued because they aren't as profitable.

FK

FK

[SarahG]

Having multiple drugs for the same condition isn't really a bad thing. Sometimes only one drug will work for a patient (while an other may not), some drugs easily develope a tolerance in patient systems etc.

For instance, when I was little I had to use a different allergy medication every 6-9 months because my body would build up a tolerance to them so fast and they'd stop working.

Some people get allergic reactions, some get side effects that are avoided by other types of drugs for the same conditions... having options is a good and important thing in terms of all this.

[mustang]

"He is from small suburb that is 90% white and upper middle class"-
Born in Flint, Michigan, Michael Moore grew up in the city of Davison. At the time the neighboring city of Flint was home to many General Motors factories, where his mother was a secretary, and both his father and grandfather were auto workers. His uncle was one of the founders of the United Automobile Workers labor union and participated in the famous Flint Sit-Down Strike. His mother died recently but his entire family still resides in Davison. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moore

"The only answer is docking our pay to make up the difference.....aka Communism/Socialism." Those of us who have health care are paying for it now, through direct employer contribution, voluntary payroll deductions or direct payment to an insurance company. BUT, we're paying an inflated price that covers the bloated profits of the insurance industry and their marketing budget. If we all used a single payer not for profit system like Medicare do you really think it would cost you more?

Btw, a single payer system is NOT socialized medicine. The hospitals and doctors remain independant. You go to the doctor/hospital of your choice, present your Medicare card and they send the bill to Medicare. We do, however, have a long standing socialized medical system in America - the VA, where the government actually runs the hospitals.


Like I said.....he is from a small city outside of flint! Meaning.......he has no idea what it is like in the inner city. Do you know how much "factory workers" made at GM,Ford and the like?? My best friend's dad just retired from Ford.When he left he was making 125,000

Davison is 94.3% white and 2% black that ought to tell you all you need to know about his backround.Go look at the census bureau for average income and the like. The point I was trying to make is you see Moore walking through the ghettos of Flint claiming that is where he is from when he is from Leave it to Beaver suburbs. Us people who really grew up in the Hood don't like that too much.

As far as the health care goes......Single payer or not the price of health care is a viscious cycle.In layman's terms here it is. Doctors go to school for years and expect to make a lot of money for their services........we sue them for their mistakes.......they have to carry high risk malpractice insurance which is extremely expensive..........so they charge more for their services so they can still live comfortable and pay the premiums.........and then our insurance companies knowing that and also wanting to make money charge us more for our premiums. You have to assume that in order for everyone to be afforded health care that you would have to kick in for the less fortunate thus the comparison to socialism/communism. My insurance may be expensive now but it is not costing me 15-25% of my income. It costs me 2400 a year.

[Realgirls4me]

Mustang:

Why should one's health care be a privilege and not a right, particularly given we supposedly are the richest most powerful country on this planet? Why are we the only industrialized country without it? The vast majority of our schools are "socialized", as are our libraries, roads, parks, police and fire departments, etc., so why shouldn't health care? What's this hang up you have with the terms "socialism" and "communism"? Capitalism, as our healthcare points out, also has its warts.

By the way, I want you to SPECIFICALLY denounce O'Reilly and Limbaugh. I want you to label them extremists as you did Moore.

[Cuchulain]

" Do you know how much "factory workers" made at GM,Ford and the like?? My best friend's dad just retired from Ford.When he left he was making 125,000 " The loss of these good paying middle class jobs is precisely what Moore was railing against in his early movie about Flint 'Roger and Me'. How does the fact that he grew up 10 miles away, with most of his family traveling there to work everyday, invalidate that point?? Do you suggest that Flint is better now without those jobs?

"........we sue them for their mistakes.......they have to carry high risk malpractice insurance which is extremely expensive..........so they charge more for their services so they can still live comfortable and pay the premiums......"
-Malpractice issues will diminish.....Since 60% of current settlement costs are for future medical care and everyone already will have medical care, settlements will go down and professional liability insurance costs will go down proportionately......Health care will be disengaged from employment, freeing millions of health care hostages to pursue jobs they want, rather than jobs they take for health benefits. Self-employment and entrepreneurship will become financially feasible. American business and manufacturing again will be competitive with countries that have national health plans. Without health benefits as a hiring issue, small businesses will compete equally with large ones for good employees. Medical bankruptcies – now half of all bankruptcies, and especially affecting the middle class – will vanish. Ninety-five per cent of Americans will pay less for health care than they do now.-http://www.chca.us/34901.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

Here are a couple other sources of info on single payer health care:
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/53502/
http://www.throwtherascalsout.org/Single-payer_benefits.doc

[tsluver247]

The United States of American already has socialized health care systems:
United States Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) for Veterans
Medicare for the elderly and disabled
Medicaid for low-income parents, children, seniors, and people with disabilities

The Bush Administration and the Republican controlled congress at the time passed Part D to Medicare: Prescription Drug plans, which went into effect on January 1, 2006.

I have not seen Sicko, nor do I plan to. I personally do not like Michael Moore or any other extreme pundits.

I personally believe that our health care system needs to be fixed, especially since the baby boom generation is starting to retire. Our hospitals are under-staffed and over-worked that our government accepts the hard working men and women from various nations to help staff our hospitals. Reform for immigration, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security need to be talked about and comprehensive legislation needs to be formed and passed as well as slow down the costs to go to college.

[mtbazz]

Wouldn't that be a great way to show their devotion to helping mankind through valuable research? (Man, this guy's an idiot.)

In a way, it's cute to see someone so puppy-like that he's more than eager to ignore something as simple as a balance sheet in deference to his master's voice. It's also pathetic. Not a strong enough word, that, but I've wasted enough time on someone who's most coherent response will be nothing more than "Duuuhhhh.... well yore a Kommy. Duh-huh-huh."

Idiot huh? Your reply certainly does not sound very mature, and your name calling is barely one step above kindergarten behavior. To be honest your really not worth the time it takes to type this.
Anyway, Ive made my point, and anyone who has bothered to read ALL of what I have posted will realize that. Ive clearly said that the big pharma companies are not angels, Ive seen my share of mismanagement, and unethical behavior by the corporate elite, this includes bonus packages that are given away that are just ridiculous (for an example google "Peter Dolan")I have other reasons to dislike big pharma, but they are not anyones business but my own, but I went to school for biochemistry, and like it or not this is how I make my living for the moment.

In any case, for all of the big pharma bashing going on here, I really have not seen ANYONE suggest a viable alternative that will allow the pharma companies to spend the money to develop drugs, and make enough money to recap what they put into R&D so that more research can be done.

[SarahG]

The vast majority of our schools are "socialized"

And that is supposed to be a good thing?

Mark Twin used to say something about how he tried to avoid schooling; it was education he was after.

Compulsitory schooling; as in government mandated, government run institutions is problematic for a whole list of reasons.... our system was directly based on a combination of the Prussian and British systems with an American twist. The goal was to take the entire population, one generation at a time and mold them into whatever it is we want our population to be like...

The Prussian (German) influence was brought in to try to make the population, one generation at a time mindless civil servants; people focused on serving the fatherland without any critical sense of subjectivity (ever seen "All Is Quiet On The Western Front"?). This started on a sublimal basis, the very first thing students did in our system originally was salute the flag (this was later replaced by forcing the population to pledge alliagence to the country). Nationalism is one thing, forced nationalism is an other altogether.

The British system was brought in to basically condition the population into being a cheap labor force for an industrial era- aka factory workers etc. This is the origin of the school bell and the use of it for a daily school schedual (signaling breaks, lunches, start/finish of "shifts"- it is just a child's version of the factory whistle/sirens...).

We essentially combined the two and took it a step further adding our own twist, aiming to "Americanize" everyone in the population through forcefully removing the customs, unmainstream religions, and nonenglish langauges of everyone in the country- one generation at the time. This was especially important to the country in areas with large immigrant populations (such as Chicago, NYC etc)... but it was hardly used solely for things that would increase success rates after school (such as being able to speak English...). Have we already forgotten the "Indian Schools" from this same time period of American history?

Our national policy regarding the entire population of native American youth was that we had to "kill the Indian to save the man" and we by governmental policies, laws and enforcement on local, state and federal levels- rounded up any and all such youths and sent them- against their will- to schools... institutions, that were usually run by religions... where these youths would have the "Indian beaten out of them" threw torture, malnurishment (ever drive by one of these campuses where they are still standing? They have cemeteries for all the native kids they killed...), forced or coerced religious conversions... and punishments aimed at destroying any level of their original culture they still had (such as languages, traditions, etc).... this was not just some 19th century institutional left over like the legacy of enslavement, we maintained these polices and schools for natives all the way up through the 1970s and 1980s.

Our only concern is rather or not the kids leaving our schooling systems are what we desire them to be, rather or not they recieve any education at all whatsoever in the process is but an occasional unintended side effect.

The problem with extending government regulation and governmental interferance into more and more fields is that it makes it easy to lead to all kinds of oppression (and related problems). This is about rights, not privledges and any system where self destructive/maladaptive behavor is a drain in society, is a system where people will lose their civil liberties under that so-called-justification.

There was a time where if you went out and stabbed yourself with a knife by mistake, it really didn't hurt anyone but yourself... under socialized medical care this is no longer the case since everyone pays for it and care is rationed to include everyone. Thus any "risky" behavor is bad for the entire population and gets regulated as a result even if it only effects the consenting citizen that did it to her/himself... some of this is fairly nonabrasive and without opposition (like seatbelts, helmet laws, smoking bans etc)... but how much further down that road should we go? Outlawing tattoos (after all, it can get infected... why should I have to pay for someone using my tax dollars to get their tramp stamp looked at?), piercings, "unhealthy sexual practices" etc.

[lahabra1976]

Imo socialized care/universal care should never be in the US. You have to consider this not just from the point of view of taxes, but also of doctors. Universal care would mean doctor's would make the same wages as everyone else. So some say why not?

Well, becoming a doctor isn't the eaisest thing in the world, everyone knows this. You go through countless nights of no sleep, 8-10 years of school. Than 2-3 years of internship, where the hrs are so much doctor sometimes sleep in the hospital. Than once you are doctor it doesn't really get easier. You may have to get up at 3AM in the morning to care for a patient. If you make mistake, that may mean a million dollar law suit or even worst someone's death. Sure we all make mistakes a work, but for doctor's this isn't acceptable.

And all that for what, to make average wages. That isn't the American Way, the harder you work at it, the more you are suppose to get. I am sure no one here would like it if we sacrificed that much just to get average wages.

Plus, from a social point of view, if universal care occurs, not as many ppl wont want to become doctors. And that would mean less doctors to see ppl and the overall care of ppl would be less. Sure universal care has worked in other countries, supposely, but most of them dont train doctors like we do here.

Sure one would wonder if our doctors are so well trained, why are we the 37th most unhealthy nation? Well perhaps thats because we eat tons of gressy foods, we dont exercise enough, and our air is full of pollutants. You can't necessarily blame that on healthcare.

[goldensamba]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda. Our health care system, while needing some amount of overhaul, isnt all that bad. Many of those other countries that get touted as having better health care systems are fairly socialist, and as a result the citizens of those countries are heavily taxed in order to pay for the health care of others....

First off, you obviously have no idea what a communist is. Secondly, although Moore puts his own bias in his movies factually there is nothing in them that is incorrect. Our healthcare system is a joke and the reason it is that way is because our government is also a joke. Ex: The Medicare Precription Drug Bill which states Medicare CANNOT bargain for better prices with drug companies. Why? So the profit margins stay the same and there is no way to put a check on the prices. If they were competing to be the lowest bidder prices would obviously be better. This was just a big kickback to the drug companies and the biggest waste of money ever. 2/3 of our Medical costs go to admin costs. Cut out the bullshit and we might have a workable system. Somehow we have managed to be the only modernized western country who does not have a national healthcare plan. The British have got it right (as well as most of the rest of Europe), why can't we?

I could go on and on with this subject but the fact that you started out calling somone a communist shows that you do not have enough intellect to warrant me going further.

[Realgirls4me]

Sarah,

Don't digress or obscure. In this country there are vestiges of socialism everywhere one looks. The point I was trying to make was that socialism is just a term fearmongers -- usually rightwingers -- utilize as a divisive tool to possibly cut debate on issues that really require serious dialogue and debate. Throw in the dreaded "S" word, and out goes the serious debate on an issue. No one is suggesting that our public school system does not have its share of problems, because there are many, but going to the (private) market to solve it only spawns many other Pandoras' boxes.

How some of you rationalize having 48 million fellow Americans without healthcare is simply beyond my grasp. Yes, the shareholders and CEOs of these giant pharma,insurance, and HMOs definitely trump the welfare of our fellow citizens and the Hippocratic oath. ...Hail to the god of Mammon.

:roll:

[SarahG]

Sarah,

Don't digress or obscure. In this country there are vestiges of socialism everywhere one looks. The point I was trying to make was that socialism is just a term fearmongers -- usually rightwingers -- utilize as a divisive tool to possibly cut debate on issues that really require serious dialogue and debate. Throw in the dreaded "S" word, and out goes the serious debate on an issue. No one is suggesting that our public school system does not have its share of problems, because there are many, but going to the (private) market to solve it only spawns many other Pandoras' boxes.

How some of you rationalize having 48 million fellow Americans without healthcare is simply beyond my grasp. Yes, the shareholders and CEOs of these giant pharma,insurance, and HMOs definitely trump the welfare of our fellow citizens and the Hippocratic oath. ...Hail to the god of Mammon.

:roll:

I am not saying the way to fix the schooling system was to get rid of it in favor of a solely private market, however how a system is developed means anything and everything about what problems it has down the road. IMO *all* of our public schooling system's problems are directly caused by the method in which the system was formed to achieve political ends in the late 19th century... we'd be kidding ourselves to say otherwise.

Until I know for a fact that any universal healthcare system, for the entire population, when run by state or federal agencies, will be implemented in a way that does not involve playing politics with the system; i will be against it. IMO I see nothing but short term and long term problems alike by switching to socialized healthcare for the entire population.. not because that "so called evil S word was used" but because I see it becoming an even bigger SEC divider when it comes to procedures which are political or social issues... as I discussed earlier. That plus the civil liberty concerns I find at best troubling.

The key is maintaining some level of subjectivity and realism, and the realist answer is that both systems have their problems, neither are a magic cure all (in fact both would be a significant distance from such). IF we were to go the socialized universal healthcare route for the whole population at the least we MUST go and look at the downfalls of similar systems in other countries and use that as a basis of trying to perfect it in a way which would work better for our society.

When universal healthcare is a gov mandated, gov run monopoly where the people have no options BUT to go threw the government for their healthcare, losing something like eyecare or dental care (like Ontario did a few years back) is NOT an option. Sure under the privatization system we have today many people have no such healthcare, but if the gov programs are the only games in town AND they lose such "benefits" then NO ONE has such healthcare services (which leaves us no better off then we are today, if not worse off).

Do we have any reason to believe whatsoever that our politicians would try to learn from the problems that other nations have had with universal healthcare for their entire populations?

[tsluver247]

Imo socialized care/universal care should never be in the US. You have to consider this not just from the point of view of taxes, but also of doctors. Universal care would mean doctor's would make the same wages as everyone else. So some say why not?


How do you suggest we do about Veterans Affairs (VA) health care, which the government pays for? Should we tell the men and women that are injured in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for our freedoms, thanks for your service but we can not afford your healthcare? Should we tell them I understand that you have one arm or leg, but that is tough luck?

How do you suggest to do with Medicare and Medicaid? How do you think doctors' salaries and hospitals' profit will be affected when the poor, elderly and disabled can not afford the hospital bills and the government tells them tough luck, but we do not offer social care?

[SarahG]

Imo socialized care/universal care should never be in the US. You have to consider this not just from the point of view of taxes, but also of doctors. Universal care would mean doctor's would make the same wages as everyone else. So some say why not?


How do you suggest we do about Veterans Affairs (VA) health care, which the government pays for? Should we tell the men and women that are injured in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for our freedoms, thanks for your service but we can not afford your healthcare? Should we tell them I understand that you have one arm or leg, but that is tough luck?

How do you suggest to do with Medicare and Medicaid? How do you think doctors' salaries and hospitals' profit will be affected when the poor, elderly and disabled can not afford the hospital bills and the government tells them tough luck, but we do not offer social care?

Point taken, until we can implement the VA socialized healthcare system properly we should not even begin to think about implementing a nation wide system for the whole population.

If we can't even take care of our veterans, why do we think we could (at the current time) take care of the entire population's medical needs?

I am not saying it is impossible, we just are not at a point in time where it is in (immediate) reach.

[mintO]

Dont fall too much for Mr. Moores rhetoric, he is a communist and hates America, and his films are pure one sided propaganda.

Oh my fucking god....did you write that with a straight face?

he's not a communist.. and not a documentarian.. but talented with coercion. all of his movies (they're not documentaries, even by definition) are, like people already said, 100% biased and unsound. his movies are shown in most logic and rhetoric courses as an example of tactical coercion and bad logic. his movies are filled with fallacies, fillllllled. he's even worse than Pen & Teller's show. one of the girls on the first page said that a "good" documentary doesn't need to reveal both sides of an argument..

..did she say THAT with a straight face?

Moore is good for nothing, so far. his movies are so ridiculously illegitimate and the mass majority of moviegoers eat it up at each premiere. think we'll see him argue against fast food, obesity, or the effects of wearing a baseball cap 24/7 has on one's hair? doubt it.

speaking of Pen & Teller's show "Bullshit!" though.. have any of you watched it? while the arguments are pretty loose, the information they give is all accurate and always seems to be gathered nicely. i like that show.. and they've already tackled health care way before Moore.

[mustang]

Mustang:

Why should one's health care be a privilege and not a right, particularly given we supposedly are the richest most powerful country on this planet? Why are we the only industrialized country without it? The vast majority of our schools are "socialized", as are our libraries, roads, parks, police and fire departments, etc., so why shouldn't health care? What's this hang up you have with the terms "socialism" and "communism"? Capitalism, as our healthcare points out, also has its warts.

By the way, I want you to SPECIFICALLY denounce O'Reilly and Limbaugh. I want you to label them extremists as you did Moore.



I already told you that I dislike both Extreme liberals and conservatives! On both sides if you don't believe what they believe entirely........here they come with torches and rope. Other countries have been struggling with their health care for years. Which is why most countries are moving toward what we are running from. We are socializing.....that is what I am afraid of! You have to look past this step and ask yourself where will it ultimately lead. If there is one thing I haved learned in life it's this...One door opens another...and one of those doors you will not be happy what's behind it. There are other solutions,but no one is talking about those.

[SarahG]

There are other solutions,but no one is talking about those.

Exactly.

Of course, to use a roman analogy, we all have our "bread and circus"

The people will allow the government to run the empire into the ground and won't care nor take notice because we all have our social welfare programs and our distractions/entertainments.

The talking heads, Rush, Moore etc- are no more or less one of many entertainment elements used to keep people from truly caring about what is going on in places such as congress. It isn't an academic level documentary, it isn't even an academic level commentary. It is entertainment, it is about ticket sales, ratings, and profits... no more or less like our so called unbiased media systems (CNN, Fox included... of many).

[El Nino]

What's up with this? Any comments?

"FBI Knowingly Allowed Bin Laden To Personally Charter Flight After 9/11"

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/210607Laden.htm

[El Nino]

Michael Moore Has Serious Questions About 9/11


http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/190607Moore.htm

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/190607Moore_Questions.htm

The sleeping Giant is awakening

[lahabra1976]

If we can't even take care of our veterans, why do we think we could (at the current time) take care of the entire population's medical needs?

I am not saying it is impossible, we just are not at a point in time where it is in (immediate) reach.[/quote]

Exactly, universal care is not something that can easily be implemented. We have to consider other solutions as this point. What? I dont know, I mean every doctor will admit that medicine has become a business, its not just about "patient care" anymore, there is more to it, especially with the implement of insurances. 20 years ago 90-95% of patients were said to be private pay, now private pay is rare. That means insurances dictate care almost more than doctors do sad to say. And no its not like there is much choice here. I mean the doctors dont have to accept these insurances, but the insurances will just send their patients elsewhere than which means no ppl for the doctor to see.

[SarahG]

If we can't even take care of our veterans, why do we think we could (at the current time) take care of the entire population's medical needs?

I am not saying it is impossible, we just are not at a point in time where it is in (immediate) reach.

Exactly, universal care is not something that can easily be implemented. We have to consider other solutions as this point. What? I dont know, I mean every doctor will admit that medicine has become a business, its not just about "patient care" anymore, there is more to it, especially with the implement of insurances. 20 years ago 90-95% of patients were said to be private pay, now private pay is rare. That means insurances dictate care almost more than doctors do sad to say. And no its not like there is much choice here. I mean the doctors dont have to accept these insurances, but the insurances will just send their patients elsewhere than which means no ppl for the doctor to see.[/quote]

Personally I feel that if we want to go the socialized medicine route (that is a big if) we should use our current socialized healthcare prograns such as Veteran affairs to go and "get it right" *before* we force it down the throats of the entire population.

Seems the only rational response- outside of preserving the status quo.

[HeHateMe]

If you devoted followers of Mr. Moore and his communist propoganda think the U.S. healthcare system and America in general, sucks so bad why don't you move to Canada and the land of socialized heathcare. I am sure that you will come running right back to this bad, evil, fucked up place that you communists call "home".
Regarding the side debate on veterans, how many of you computer jockeys have ever served in the military? Just curious. I am a veteran and proud of it and the United States of America!!

HAVE A NICE DAY!

[SarahG]

-deleted-

[Realgirls4me]

Mustang:

Why should one's health care be a privilege and not a right, particularly given we supposedly are the richest most powerful country on this planet? Why are we the only industrialized country without it? The vast majority of our schools are "socialized", as are our libraries, roads, parks, police and fire departments, etc., so why shouldn't health care? What's this hang up you have with the terms "socialism" and "communism"? Capitalism, as our healthcare points out, also has its warts.

By the way, I want you to SPECIFICALLY denounce O'Reilly and Limbaugh. I want you to label them extremists as you did Moore.



I already told you that I dislike both Extreme liberals and conservatives! On both sides if you don't believe what they believe entirely........here they come with torches and rope. Other countries have been struggling with their health care for years. Which is why most countries are moving toward what we are running from. We are socializing.....that is what I am afraid of! You have to look past this step and ask yourself where will it ultimately lead. If there is one thing I haved learned in life it's this...One door opens another...and one of those doors you will not be happy what's behind it. There are other solutions,but no one is talking about those.

Here's the reason I want you to SPECIFICALLY denounce clowns such as Limbaugh and O'Reilly: If you're going to claim you're independently minded and not beholden to extremists on either side, then what's the big deal about naming them by name? If you're going to call Moore names and question his raison de etre, which you have every right to, then what's the big deal with calling out far rightwingers such as Limbaugh and O'Reilly? It's just a matter of striking a few keys. I simply want to see if you really aren't carrying water for anyone, and that your postings have been formulated by a true independent, impartial mind. I've never really met one without any biases or political listing, so I want to see if this is a first; if you might be the first one. I simply want to see if that aspect of your postings is free of influence, thus one of true independence and integrity.

Here's what I think: Rightwing tinhorns and firebrands such as O'Reilly and Limbaugh have convince their flocks that THEY are the level-headed, rational independents, and thus paint anyone they disagree with as extremists. Anyone lacking any semblance of critical thinking skills buys their slop, hook, line, and sinker, and are quick to paint those they disagree with such as Michael Moore as an extremist, not realizing themselves that they themselves are listening and agreeing with an extremist also.

Just type the following, Mustang: Moore is an extremist, but so are people such as Bill O'Reilly and Rush limbaugh who are quick to condemn him ...

[Realgirls4me]

If you devoted followers of Mr. Moore and his communist propoganda think the U.S. healthcare system and America in general, sucks so bad why don't you move to Canada and the land of socialized heathcare. I am sure that you will come running right back to this bad, evil, fucked up place that you communists call "home".
Regarding the side debate on veterans, how many of you computer jockeys have ever served in the military? Just curious. I am a veteran and proud of it and the United States of America!!

HAVE A NICE DAY!

Fuck you! Clear enough for you? FUCK YOU! Care to pull away from the Savage show and tell us what else you listen, read, or whose ideas you follow, Einstein?

... A couple of years ago, I attended the funeral service of a friend who fought in Iwo Jima, and have met tons of current and former service personel living in this military town, and one thing I've found out through all these acquaintances and relationships is that the most honorable, humble, and decent service personel don't wear their service on their sleeve. Like "Chuck", who never told me he fought in Iwo Jima in the years I knew him, they don't feel the need to.

I'll never understand the mindset of some who automatically link criticism with some aspect of their country with hatred for it, or because they have served, that that somehow entitles them to forcefeed everyone else their narrowminded slop.

Have a nice day you piece of shit. :)

[tsluver247]

Imo socialized care/universal care should never be in the US. You have to consider this not just from the point of view of taxes, but also of doctors. Universal care would mean doctor's would make the same wages as everyone else. So some say why not?


How do you suggest we do about Veterans Affairs (VA) health care, which the government pays for? Should we tell the men and women that are injured in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting for our freedoms, thanks for your service but we can not afford your healthcare? Should we tell them I understand that you have one arm or leg, but that is tough luck?

How do you suggest to do with Medicare and Medicaid? How do you think doctors' salaries and hospitals' profit will be affected when the poor, elderly and disabled can not afford the hospital bills and the government tells them tough luck, but we do not offer social care?

Point taken, until we can implement the VA socialized healthcare system properly we should not even begin to think about implementing a nation wide system for the whole population.

If we can't even take care of our veterans, why do we think we could (at the current time) take care of the entire population's medical needs?

I am not saying it is impossible, we just are not at a point in time where it is in (immediate) reach.

I agree with your statement "until we can implement the VA socialized healthcare system properly we should not even begin to think about implementing a nation wide system for the whole population.” I do not political rhetoric from left or right to try to gain votes. These types of programs need major details before implementation. Just look at Bush’s Part D Medicare fiasco, which caused major confusion because the plan was not well thought out before implementation.

Businesses currently spend thousands of dollars on each of their employee’s healthcare. Do you believe the government taking over the “program” will save billions of dollars for businesses? Do you believe that free flow of cash would create new jobs?


From Health Affairs Article (http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1)
In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.9–2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage. Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick.

Do you believe that "universal helathdare" could save companies from trying to recover loses due to consumers filing for bankruptcy? Do you think "universal healthcare" will free up our court sysytems due to bankruptcy and medical litigation?

The downside of universal healthcare is the government paying for our healthcare. Government has not proven to me that they can manage anything. Why? BECAUSE THEY ARE POLITICIANS! Universal Healthcare is a great concept for the great common cause of helping Americans get the proper healthcare, but the problem is government oversight and going after fraud (companies, doctors and individuals). Also the thought of political parties placing their cronies in important positions scares me. Brownie did a heckuva job, didn’t he?

I will also state that I have not personally served in the military. I have many veteran friends, both liberal and conservative. I have seen the hardships on the families of the troops serving overseas. I also donated this year to the Fisher House (http://www.fisherhouse.org/), VFW (http://www.vfw.org/), and Purple Heart (http://www.purpleheart.org/). I proudly participated in my local Memorial Day Parade this year and I will also proudly participate in my local 4th of July Day Parade. I SUPPORT THE TROOPS, I LOVE MY COUNTRY (USA), AND I AM DAMN PROUD OF IT!

[hondarobot]

I think the people who feel one way should go live in the North, and people who feel another way should go live in the South.

I think something like that happened once. The North won.

Sorry about bumping an old thread, the forum has seemed kinda slow lately.

:wink: