The TG connection between the spirit and the flesh

[LG]

Hara and Peggy in particular might find this interesting...

I came across the term 'berdache' while viewing a youtube video made by an intelligent and beautiful girl called Angelica Ross, then found the text below on the net.

I understand that some people here might be aware of this term, but I was not. I think the text below makes for interesting reading
______________________________________________

Excerpts from Walter L. Williams, The Spirit and the Flesh: Sexual Diversity in American Indian Culture (Boston: Beacon Press, 1986), 344 pp.

How many genders are there? To a modern Anglo-American, nothing might seem more definite than the answer that there are two: men and women. But not all societies around the world agree with Western culture’s view that all humans are either women or men…

Among many cultures, there have existed different alternatives to “man” or “woman.” An alternative role in many American Indian societies is referred to by anthropologists as berdache…

Briefly, a berdache can be defined as a morphological male who does not fill a society’s standard man’s role, who has a nonmasculine character. This type of person is often stereotyped as effeminate, but a more accurate characterization is androgyny. Such a person has a clearly recognized and accepted social status, often based on a secure place in the tribal mythology. Berdaches have special ceremonial roles in many Native American religions, and important economic roles in their families. They will do at least some women’s work, and mix together much of the behavior, dress, and social roles of women and men. Berdaches gain social prestige by their spiritual, intellectual, or craftwork/artistic contributions, and by their reputation for hard work and generosity. They serve a mediating function between women and men, precisely because their character is seen as distinct from either sex. They are not seen as men, yet they are not seen as women either. They occupy an alternative gender role that is a mixture of diverse elements.

----- ----- -----

The berdache receives respect partly as a result of being a mediator. Somewhere between the status of women and men, berdaches not only mediate between the sexes but between the psychic and the physical—between the spirit and the flesh. Since they mix the characteristics of both men and women, they possess the vision of both. They have double vision, with the ability to see more clearly than a single gender perspective can provide. This is why they are often referred to as “seer,” one whose eyes can see beyond the blinders that restrict the average person. Viewing things from outside the usual perspective, they are able to achieve a creative and objective viewpoint that is seldom available to ordinary people. By the Indian view, someone who is different offers advantages to society precisely because she or he is freed from the restrictions of the usual. It is a different window from which to view the world…

------ ------ ------

American Indian cultures have taken what Western culture calls negative, and made it a positive; they have successfully utilized the different skills and insights of a class of people that Western culture has stigmatized and whose spiritual powers have been wasted.

------ ------ ------

Thus, an individual who in Western culture would be considered a misfit, an embarrassment to his family who would likely be thrown out of the household, is instead made central to the family. Since other relatives do not feel threatened, family disunity and conflict are avoided. The berdache is not expected to suppress his tendency for feminine behavior. Neither does he internalize a low self-image. He thus avoids the tendency of those considered deviant in Western culture to engage in self-destructive behavior. Berdaches who value their traditions do not tend to be alcoholic or suicidal, even in tribes where such problems are common. They are too valued by their families. In Native American lifestyles, seldom is anything thrown away unused—including people. A Crow traditionalist says, “We don’t waste people, the way white society does. Every person has their gift.” …

______________________________________________

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

[iloveshemales77]

I remember there was a "berdache" portrayed in "Little Big Man", the Indian that rode his horse backwards and wanted to marry Dustin Hoffmans character. Or was he simply gay and accepted as such in his society?

[yodajazz]

I think that Native American approach is a good one. Even Jesus recognized that the 'eunuchs' of his era were a different class of people, in a discussion about marriage.

By the way Angelica Ross is an intelligent and talented TS woman. I saw her on television last week in program about going home to reconnect with her family. It was very positive. But now I cant remember the name of the show.

[LG]

I think that Native American approach is a good one. Even Jesus recognized that the 'eunuchs' of his era were a different class of people, in a discussion about marriage.

By the way Angelica Ross is an intelligent and talented TS woman. I saw her on television last week in program about going home to reconnect with her family. It was very positive. But now I cant remember the name of the show.

I agree. Angelica Ross' point was that TS women should have a higher self esteem of themselves because they are truly special. And she gave an example of where TGs are not just accepted but valued. I think such a philosophy could help the girls overcome their difficulties and hope that it can contribute to their acceptance by society.

I will look out for Angelica Ross in the future. She seems like a woman who can make a difference.

What do others think of all this? Id' love to hear the girls' opinions too...

[peggygee]

Trangenderism in non Judeo-Christian, Western societies is somewhat fairly common.

The hijras of India, the travestis of South America, the kathoeys of
Southeast Asia, in Islamic countries, Mukhannathun (Arabic مخنثون "effeminate ones.

And as you have pointed out the two spirit or berdache of the indigenous
Native American nations. In over 100 tribes, the Navajo, Crow, Lakota
Sioux, Cheyenne, etc, the berdaches were present and highly valued.

[BrendaQG]

I am roughly 3/8 native 3/8 black and 2/8 white. There is much influence from native culture in my background. Sadly this particular thing was something I had to discover for myself.

I totally buy the two-spirit philosophy. I know I am not a man, I also know that I am not a woman in every possible sense. I am closer to female than male in the spiritual sense, but I have experienced some of life in the male context. I am both and I am neither I am a transsexual. I personally have found that I am happier thinking of myself in that way.

The alternative is to think of myself as a imitation or impersonation. Or to just think of myself as a woman 100% in spite of the fact that I was born male bodied. Things that sound like crazy talk to most people.

I for one would be happy if the idea of a third gender prevailed here in the USA.

[DJ_Asia]

I remember there was a "berdache" portrayed in "Little Big Man", the Indian that rode his horse backwards and wanted to marry Dustin Hoffmans character. Or was he simply gay and accepted as such in his society?

Actually the one that rode his horse backwards wasnt the berdache,he was a "contrary" because he owed Hoffmans character a life.Once the debt was repaid he could stop being a contrary,saying no when he meant yes,riding backwards,etc...

The femme character represented the native American berdache,which was a very well rspected of most or all tribes.

From Wikipedia

These individuals are often viewed as having two spirits occupying one body. Their dress is usually a mixture of traditionally male and traditionally female articles. They have distinct gender and social roles in their tribes.

Two-spirited individuals perform specific social functions in their communities. In some tribes male-bodied two-spirits were active as healers or medicine persons, gravediggers, undertakers, handling and burying of the deceased, conducted mourning and sexual rites, conveyers of oral traditions and songs, nurses during war expeditions, foretold the future, conferred lucky names on children or adults, wove, made pottery, made beadwork and quillwork, arranged marriages, made feather regalia for dances, special skills in games of chance, led scalp-dances, and fulfilled special functions in connection with the setting up of the central post for the Sun Dance. In some tribes female-bodied two-spirits typically took on roles such as chief, council, trader, hunter, trapper, fisher, warfare, raider, guides, peace missions, vision quests, prophets, and medicine persons.

Some examples of two-spirited people in history include the accounts by Spanish conquistadors who spotted a two-spirited individual(s) in almost every village they entered in Central America.

There are descriptions of two-spirited individuals having strong mystical powers. In one account, raiding soldiers of a rival tribe begin to attack a group of foraging women when they perceive that one of the women, the one that does not run away, is a two-spirit. They halt their attack and retreat after the two-spirit counters them with a stick, determining that the two-spirit will have great power which they will not be able to overcome.

Native people have often been perceived as "warriors," and with the acknowledgment of two-spirit people that romanticized identity becomes broken. In order to justify this new "Indian" identity many explained it away as a “form of social failure, women-men are seen as individuals who are not in a position to adapt themselves to the masculine role prescribed by their culture” (Lang, 28). Lang goes on to suggest that two-spirit people lost masculine power socially, so they took on female social roles to climb back up the social ladder within the tribe.

Cross dressing of two-spirit people was not always an indicator of cross acting (taking on other gender roles and social status within the tribe). Lang explains “the mere fact that a male wears women’s clothing does not say something about his role behavior, his gender status, or even his choice of partner…” (62). Often within tribes a child’s gender was decided depending on by either their inclination toward either masculine or feminine activities, or their intersex status. Puberty was about the time frame by which clothing choices were made to physically display their gender choice.

Two-spirit people, specifically male-bodied (biologically male, gender female), could go to war and have access to male activities such as sweat lodges. However, they also took on female roles such as cooking and other domestic responsibilities. Today’s societal standards look down upon feminine males, and this perception of that identity has trickled into Native society. The acculturation of these attitudes has created a sense of shame towards two-spirit males who live or dress as females and no longer wish to understand the dual lifestyle they possess.

According to certain reports there had never been an alternative gender among the Comanche.[7] This is true of most Apache bands as well, except for the Lipan, Chiricahua, Mescalero, and southern Dilzhe'e.[8][9] One tribe in particular, the Eyak, has a single report from 1938 that they did not have an alternative gender and they held such individuals in low esteem, although whether this sentiment is the result of acculturation or not is unknown.[10][11] It has been claimed that the Iroquois did not either,[7] although there is a single report from Bacqueville de La Potherie in his book published in 1722, Histoire de l'Amérique septentrionale, that indicates that an alternative gender existed among them (vol. 3, pg. 41).[12] Although all tribes were influenced by European homophobia/transphobia,[13][14][15][16][17][18] certain tribes were particularly so, such as the Acoma, Atsugewi, Dilzhe'e (Tonto) Apache, Cocopa, Costanoan, Klamath, Maidu, Mohave, Nomlaki, Omaha, Oto, Pima, Wind River Shoshone, Tolowa, and Winnebago.[19]

It has been claimed that the Aztecs and Incas had laws against such individuals,[20][21][22] though there are some authors who feel that this was exaggerated or the result of acculturation as all of the documents indicating this are post-conquest and any that existed before had been destroyed by the Spanish.[17][23] The belief that these laws existed comes from the Florentine Codex. According to Dr. Nancy Fitch Professor of History at California State University,

"There is evidence that indigenous peoples authored many codices, but the Spaniards destroyed most of them in their attempt to eradicate ancient beliefs." ... "The Florentine Codex is unquestionably a troubling primary source. Natives writing in Nahuatl under the supervision of the Spanish Fray Bernardino de Sahagún apparently produced the manuscript in the 1500s. The facts of its production raise serious questions about whether the manuscript represents the vision of the vanquished or of the colonizers" ... "colonization of the natives’ minds loomed large in the Spanish project" ... "To make matters worse, while it appears that the original manuscript was completed in Nahuatl some time around 1555, no evidence of it remains. Authorities in New Spain confiscated his manuscripts in 1575, and at various times, the Spanish monarchy ordered him to stop his work. The earliest known version of the manuscript is, thus, Sahagún’s summary of it written in Spanish. In 1585, he published a revised version of the codex, which, he argued, corrected some errors and integrated some things ignored in his earlier summary. Sahagún’s revised version is the manuscript commonly known as the Florentine Codex."[24]

[LG]

I am roughly 3/8 native 3/8 black and 2/8 white. There is much influence from native culture in my background. Sadly this particular thing was something I had to discover for myself.

I totally buy the two-spirit philosophy. I know I am not a man, I also know that I am not a woman in every possible sense. I am closer to female than male in the spiritual sense, but I have experienced some of life in the male context. I am both and I am neither I am a transsexual. I personally have found that I am happier thinking of myself in that way.

The alternative is to think of myself as a imitation or impersonation. Or to just think of myself as a woman 100% in spite of the fact that I was born male bodied. Things that sound like crazy talk to most people.

Crazy? Not to me. I think the Zunis got it pretty much right in seeing transsexuals as special and unique.

I see TS girls as women, but, physiologically, it is pretty clear that you are not the same as genetic women. Whether preop/nonop or postop, there is something different and special about TS women that goes beyond their physical being. I realise that TS women just wish to be recognised as women, but perhaps it is imaginable that you are even more special than that. I'm not sure why, but I think the idea of the two-spirit or berdache helps me understand it a little better.

But, having said that, in a black and white world of just men and women, I would group you girls under "Women". In the gray of real life, none of us are absolutely one or the other, whether the groupings are "Gay" and "Straight" or "Man" and "Woman".

Thank you everyone for your input. I'd love to hear what others think.

[iloveshemales77]

[
Actually the one that rode his horse backwards wasnt the berdache,he was a "contrary" because he owed Hoffmans character a life.Once the debt was repaid he could stop being a contrary,saying no when he meant yes,riding backwards,etc...

The femme character represented the native American berdache,which was a very well rspected of most or all tribes.

24]
Yes, you're absolutely right, got the two mixed up, thanks for reminding me

[the Adrienne Barbeaubot]

I think this thread is very insightful LG.Even though I have done some research in Native American culture, I never came across Berdaches or there role in tribal culture before. The stuff you just posted is very interesting and shows how other races and cultures view Transgenderism. Most cultures ( Native Americans,Hindus, Asians, South Americans,etc.) all revere Transsexual women.Even the Islamic nations who hang homosexual males respect TGs. Europe is also waking up in terms of acceptance. In Spain and Italy, the Transgendered communities have rights and jobs and are accepted in society. So how come here,in the USA,"the land of the free and the home of the brave" this is not so. Talk about a bunch of hypocrites. They spout freedom and liberty and rights from their mouths, yet they are quick to condemn and ostracize those who are different. The gay and Lesbian people have jobs and are accepted for the most part. So why must it be so difficult for the Transgendered girls. Perhaps I just don't understand.

[the Adrienne Barbeaubot]

I also agree with you LG, that Transsexuals are very special people and should be treated as such,with respect,kindness,and love. As Jesus said: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[LG]

I also agree with you LG, that Transsexuals are very special people and should be treated as such,with respect,kindness,and love. As Jesus said: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Thank you for this and the previous post. It's true that many nations seem to be ahead of the US in terms of acceptance of TG people. And I agree with the above. Unfortunately, those who cite scripture to condemn people often forget that Jesus also spoke of tolerance and acceptance.

Excellent responses all round people. Does anyone else have any thoughts?

[Ecstatic]

Fascinating topic; I can't believe I missed this thread earlier. Some excellent information already shared here. While it's hard, if not impossible, to put an actual figure on the nominal percentage of transgendered in any society*, and certainly the percentage may vary somewhat depending upon social customs, the presence of transsexuals in so many diverse cultures in different forms goes to illustrate the universality of transgenderism and transsexualism.

* From what I've read thus far, the ratio may be on the order of 1:300.

[Jericho]

'berdache'

A little OT, but how is that pronounced?
Is it like "Ber Dash", or "Bird Ache"?

[LG]

'berdache'

A little OT, but how is that pronounced?
Is it like "Ber Dash", or "Bird Ache"?

The beautiful and wise Angelica Ross pronounces it ber-dash in her youtube video.

To Ecstatic:
I thought you might find all this interesting- it's weird how we seem to agree on so many things.

Transsexualism is universal and the ratio you gave of 1 in 300 is a higher percentage than I expected. But it's odd when you look at some Asian countries and also Brazil and see what appears to be a higher prevalence of transsexuals. I imagine the reason for this is not genetic (although I cannot say for sure) and I do not believe it is due to environmental stimuli (since I think transgenderism is not a trait one is born with and not one that develops later in life). I think simply that transsexuality is more tolerated in these cultures and so people who identify themselves as transgendered feel more accepted and are free to change themselves physically so that their appearance matches how they feel about themselves. In other nations, this is not the case.

For all the economic and social problems that are so prevalent in Brazil, Thailand and the Philippines, maybe they've got this particular issue right and the rest of us in the "developed" world have not.

Then again, Angelica Ross' argument is that TSs should not just be tolerated or accepted, but valued because they are special and unique. For us admirers (or believers, you could say) this viewpoint is one we can accept. The question is, how do you get the message out?

I don't know, but this debate has been very interesting so far and everyone has chipped in with great comments. I feel that this kind of thing is that forums like this should be about (though some might argue that the porn's not bad :wink: )

Thanks for your input. Any more ideas?

[peggygee]

[
To Ecstatic:
I thought you might find all this interesting- it's weird how we seem to agree on so many things.

Transsexualism is universal and the ratio you gave of 1 in 300 is a higher percentage than I expected. But it's odd when you look at some Asian countries and also Brazil and see what appears to be a higher prevalence of transsexuals.

We may need to be mindful of the distinction between transsexuals and
transgender.

As to the numbers and ratios in society;
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=12755&start=0





Whoa! 1 in 10000? I always heard it was 1 in 250.


If it's 1 in 10000, how are there so many of them out there?
AGTFB


That is is an interesting question.

I believe the answer lies in the fact that this APA article is quoting the rate found in Western countries.

However if you factor in countries like Thailand, Brazil, etc, then this may skew the results.

Also, with the Internet, and rapid air travel, you tend to have one large 'global village'. Thus the 'hottie' ten thousand miles away, is on your desktop in a nanosecond, or in your arms after a short airline flight 8)

How prevalent are transgender people?

It is difficult to accurately estimate the prevalence of transgender people in Western countries. As many as 2-3% of biological males engage in cross-dressing, at least occasionally. Current estimates of the prevalence of transsexualism are about 1 in 10,000 for biological males and 1 in 30,000 for biological females. The number of people in other transgender categories is unknown.
This is a fascinating subject indeed, Peggygee. I've posted some research (by others) and speculation on that research (by myself and others) in this forum and other forums in the past.

I've read various estimates from various sources (some of which have been discussed on HA, in VR's forum, and on TGT), ranging from 1:30,000 to 1:5 (the first seems extremely low, the second absurdly high; the most credible estimates range between 1:250 to 1:3000). Lynn Conway (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html) estimates 30-40,000 post-op TS in the US; she also has the figure of 50,000 TS in Malaysia (a country of 22 million). Due to differing social attitudes, estimates of the TS population in a country like Thailand are probably much more accurate than in the US, where so many are stealth. Thailand's 300,000 translates to 1:206; I doubt that the US ratio of TS to the general population is nearly as great, but 1:3000 seems reasonable (+/- 100,000). It's frustrating though to search for any real data relative to the US demongraphics because there is so little hard data to work with.

However, what it means to be transgendered, as you indicate, varies from culture to culture. Many Brazilian transsexuals (those who have had extensive surgeries and HRT to emulate their ideal female form) are not transgendered in the sense that we may use the term: witness Lisa Lawer reverting to male (and she's not the only one). In Thailand, it's commonplace for katoey to not even have breast implants but simply dress very feminine and wear their hair very long, yet they are psychologically transgendered (cf. Male, Female and Transgender: Stereotypes and Self in Thailand by Sam Winter and Nuttawut Udomsak, http://www.symposion.com//ijt/ijtvo06no01_04.htm). (Of course, many katoey do indeed have feminization surgery and GRS, there's the full spectrum.)

This is only the initial stab at estimating the ratio of transgendered to the general population, and it may be far off for any number of reasons, but it's a start. The best estimates, for instance, show a ratio of 1:206 for Thailand (approx. 300,000 TS out of a base population of over 62 million) and 1:270 for the Philippines (approx. 250,000 out of 80 million), which is within the range I propose (+/- 1:300), though the cultural differences between these southeast Asian countries are extreme in many ways (all TS in the Philippines are considered gay, while Thais are considered a "third sex" or katoey, distinct from gay men and more accepted socially--though not without limitations).

In other words, regardless of what the known transgender population of any country is, there must be a statistically valid ratio of transgendered to normally gendered persons in any population, and I'm suggesting that that ratio is on the order of 1:300 or even 1:200. However, many people may not even realize that they are transgendered (as evidenced by the number of TS who comment on their confusion prior to beginning their transition, going through gay phases and the like because they don't understand their own innate nature). Moreover, some people may become transsexual without actually being transgendered (this is reportedly the case among many of Brazil's TS population, where many are actually gay men, not transwomen: see Lisa Lawer as an example). Social and cultural patterns, coupled with individual actualization, probably make it impossible to determine the ratio with any precision. But if transgenderism is innate, and especially if it stems from prenatal development (which is appearing to be the case for homosexuality), then it stands to reason that there is a statisical baseline of TG people in the general population.

[peggygee]

Ok, lets do the math. 1 in 10,000 = 10 in 100,000 = 100 in 1 million. Then the 1 in 10,000 will come to the larger cities for community support.
So I wonder how many would be in a large city like NYC or LA? If the US is approaching 300 million then that would mean 15, 000 M to F in the US.

If you include other gender varients such crossdressers, at 2 to 3 percent
that would mean 3 to 4.5 million in the US using the number of 150 million males.Anyway, i have a question of my own.

Can post-ops generally experience orgasms though oral sex only? A good percentage of GGs can do it; so I hear: not that I've ever tried it myself.

[LG]

We may need to be mindful of the distinction between transexuals and
transgender.

That's why I'm saying that transgenderism is a trait. If a transsexual is considered a transgered person who has actually gone some way towards changing their physical body so that it matches their psychological state (by becoming more feminine in the case of MTF TSs) and this change is either permanent or, at least full time (it may or may not involve hormones, surgery etc), then transsexuality is an emphatic form or expression of transgenderism, I suppose. But the distinction, I think, is still fuzzy. Are intersexed people/ hermaphrodites TGs? What about transvestites? And cross-dressers who might do it for a sexual thrill? What about them?

Interesting points and stats that you reminded us of also Peggy. The stats look to be all over the shop though, until one remembers that they also make that fuzzy distinction between TGs and TSs.

Finally, do you think the Thai notion of the Kathoey- similar in some ways to the idea of the Berdache- is a good one and does it aid acceptance and tolerance or not? Should TSs in America, work towards establishing an acceptance of a "third sex"?

[Ecstatic]

To Ecstatic:
I thought you might find all this interesting- it's weird how we seem to agree on so many things.
That does seem to happen fairly often, especially of late LG. It's a subject that's is near and dear to me, given my love of cultural studies on the one hand and my many transgendered friends on the other.


Transsexualism is universal and the ratio you gave of 1 in 300 is a higher percentage than I expected. But it's odd when you look at some Asian countries and also Brazil and see what appears to be a higher prevalence of transsexuals. I imagine the reason for this is not genetic (although I cannot say for sure) and I do not believe it is due to environmental stimuli (since I think transgenderism is not a trait one is born with and not one that develops later in life). I think simply that transsexuality is more tolerated in these cultures and so people who identify themselves as transgendered feel more accepted and are free to change themselves physically so that their appearance matches how they feel about themselves. In other nations, this is not the case.

For all the economic and social problems that are so prevalent in Brazil, Thailand and the Philippines, maybe they've got this particular issue right and the rest of us in the "developed" world have not.

More tolerated, yes; got it right, not quite so, and differently in each country. In the Philippines homosexuals, crossdressers, and transsexuals are all called "bakla" or "gays": they are not seen (culturally) as either women or a third sex, but as gays. This stems from their 400 years of Roman Catholicism and 350 years of Spanish colonization. Yet the tendency to transsexualism, if you will, runs deeper and far older, with the estimated number of TGs in the Philippines very close in % of total population to that in Thailand.

The Land of Smiles has a very different approach, based on the fact that it is the only southeast Asian country which was never colonized by the West and that it is 94% Theravade Buddhist. To them, being born transsexual means that you are bearing the fruit of the karma of past lives (commonly thought to have been as an abusive male coming back as a female in a male body), and such is not your fault. They are well tolerated, yes, but there are limits on what they can do in life. Thailand is a patriarchal society, and men rule in business and politics and the like. Thus, most kathoey are related to being hair dressers, performers, tour guides, and a number of other fields, but rarely rise above their "station" as it were.

Brazil is quite different again, but others are far more familiar with those differences than I am. (For that matter, seanchai and DJ and others can shed more light on Thailand as well.)

In terms of general public acceptance, Thailand does seem to be the world leader, but in many ways the US and Europe are surging ahead, with anti-discrimination legislation on the one hand and the diversity of social positions held by TGs on the other. Still, the population as a whole (especially in the US) is far less tolerant than in Thailand.

Peggy, thanks for reposting my earlier research! I should revisit this and see what progress has been made, but you saved me looking for it again. :)

[Ecstatic]

We may need to be mindful of the distinction between transexuals and transgender.
Very true, Peggy, though it seems ever elusive to define exactly, depending upon who you ask. To me, transgender is an umbrellas encompassing any and all gender variant behaviors: CD, TV, pre-op/non-op/post-op TS, and gender fuck. While I respect all forms of transgenderism, in these discussions I tend to focus on the variants of transsexualism, which share the common and fundamental trait of full-time gender indentification as the sex opposite that which one was born, regardless of degree of physical transition through surgery or hormonal therapy. (And even this is rather loose, as it does not properly account for the intersexed or for those part-time grrls who, over the course of years--upwards of 20 years for two that I know well--live dual lives in boi and gurl mode; to me the later are not TVs in the nominal sense, and as transsexuals they are "trans" in the sense of transiting back and forth.)

Kathoey in Thailand do indeed appear to be transsexual in the nominal sense (see [b]Male, Female and Transgender: Stereotypes and Self in Thailand[b], Sam Winter and Nuttawut Udomsak, http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtvo06no01_04.htm), though the sex trade there, as in Brazil, may well have altered the numbers by introducing males posing as kathoey for monetary gain, as some travesti in Brazil do.


That's why I'm saying that transgenderism is a trait. If a transsexual is considered a transgered person who has actually gone some way towards changing their physical body so that it matches their psychological state (by becoming more feminine in the case of MTF TSs) and this change is either permanent or, at least full time (it may or may not involve hormones, surgery etc), then transsexuality is an emphatic form or expression of transgenderism, I suppose. But the distinction, I think, is still fuzzy. Are intersexed people/ hermaphrodites TGs? What about transvestites? And cross-dressers who might do it for a sexual thrill? What about them?
See comments above. Very interesting questions, which I think will be refined and developed extensively over the next few decades. As I've stated elsewhere, I think that Benjamin established excellent psychological types of transsexualism based on distinct and clearly defined criteria, but as good as his work is, it is dated (1950s, but with refinements since) and limited, not accounting for other types than those he's defined.


Interesting points and stats that you reminded us of also Peggy. The stats look to be all over the shop though, until one remembers that they also make that fuzzy distinction between TGs and TSs.

Finally, do you think the Thai notion of the Kathoey- similar in some ways to the idea of the Berdache- is a good one and does it aid acceptance and tolerance or not? Should TSs in America, work towards establishing an acceptance of a "third sex"?
One of the translations of kathoey is "third sex"; they are also known as sao (or phuying) praphet song ("a second kind of woman"), and phet thee sam ("the third sex/gender"). I wonder about whether this is a good thing: as evidenced by several posts here of late, some transwomen appear to want to be known simply as women, while others seem to accept or even embrace "third sex" status. If these represent two very different sets, then "transsexual" is an inadequate term. Most of us are "cissexual" (cis: "on this side" vs. trans: "on the other side"), but what about those who are third? It's not a polar scheme any longer, but a triangulation between three points. Hmmm. Language fails me.

[peggygee]

Great discussion!

Thanks everybody for their contributions

A lot of collateral points have been made, there are a few that I would
like to re-visit at a later point, but there a couple that I feel warrant
immediate attention.




Finally, do you think the Thai notion of the Kathoey- similar in some ways to the idea of the Berdache- is a good one and does it aid acceptance and tolerance or not? Should TSs in America, work towards establishing an acceptance of a "third sex"?


[One of the translations of kathoey is "third sex"; they are also known as sao (or phuying) praphet song ("a second kind of woman"), and phet thee sam ("the third sex/gender"). I wonder about whether this is a good thing: as evidenced by several posts here of late, some transwomen appear to want to be known simply as women, while others seem to accept or even embrace "third sex" status. If these represent two very different sets, then "transsexual" is an inadequate term. Most of us are "cissexual" (cis: "on this side" vs. trans: "on the other side"), but what about those who are third? It's not a polar scheme any longer, but a triangulation between three points. Hmmm. Language fails me.


I would say that within the 'transsexual' community there may be those
that would advocate for the promulgation of the concept of a third sex.

There indeed appears to be transsexual women who while they do not
identify as male, do not fully identify as female. Nor are they desirous of
having SRS for either pschological relief from their gender dysphoria, or
for the legal protections that SRS would afford them.

Are they 'true' transsexuals, as Benjamin has defined them, or is the
Benjamin criteria sorely in need of being updated.

At this juncture, I can not definitevely say.

On this topic;



The Land of Smiles has a very different approach, based on the fact that it is the only southeast Asian country which was never colonized by the West and that it is 94% Theravade Buddhist. To them, being born transsexual means that you are bearing the fruit of the karma of past lives (commonly thought to have been as an abusive male coming back as a female in a male body), and such is not your fault.

They are well tolerated, yes, but there are limits on what they can do in life. Thailand is a patriarchal society, and men rule in business and politics and the like. Thus, most kathoey are related to being hair dressers, performers, tour guides, and a number of other fields, but rarely rise above their "station" as it were.


I fully agree with you as to the causal nature of why tranwomen are
tolerated more favorably in a Buddhist society versus Judeo-Christian
ones.

We may well be saying more or less the same thing in terms of
occupational choices availible for transwomen in LOS.

Though from my travels in the region, and in keeping in touch with a few
women, I find that transwomen aren't relegated to the sex industry or to
primarily lower class jobs.

I don't know this particular individual personally, and I am not sure if
they are the SO of the woman, but the lady has recently landed a position
as a Editor in publishing


yes we can do almost anything here with the exception of police, government work and lawyer but we definately have to interview a lot more than someone else lol eventually though we can find suitable work if we have the proper credentials and present ourselves in a polite manner. Yes i am still very happy with my job but long hours sometimes

And rather than bore the dear reader with any more verbiage, I have
re-posted a brief photo essay of when I was over there a few months
back.

If you have already seen it, I apologigize, but I think it may be relevant
to the topic at hand.... and it will delay me getting carpal. :wink:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/thailan_Hz.gif

Many would be the day that I might
be in a supermarket, department store,
bank, or Pantip Plaza buying software or
an emergency part for a computer.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/pantip5x3.jpg

And I might encounter another transwoman.

Maybe at the Chatuchak Weekend Market.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/chat4x3.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/chatclock3x4.jpg

I, and the other Thais, wouldn't bat an eye ,
a farang might rarely look askance, but it
was a wonderful sight to see so many
transwomen gainfully employed, seemingly
happy, going about the everyday tasks of
life.

I almost went back over in March, I needed
some dental work and the latest software.

I will be back soon, I tend not to stay away too
long, as I truly love the Land Of Smiles.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/siam5x4.jpg

[DJ_Asia]

Peggy G next time u are coming to LOS hit me up and we can hang out and have some dinner.

[peggygee]

Peggy G next time u are coming to LOS hit me up and we can hang out and have some dinner.

I was hoping that you would chime in on this thread.

I would love to have dinner. 8)

I've been fiending for some prawns, and all the other
great foods that you just can't quite get here.

I've twerked out the dental, but I am due for some software.
I may also have some outfits made, from the inexpensive
and gifted tailors they have.

And as I have said so many times LOS and it's people are
truly, truly wonderful.

As the HA, Thai correspondent would you like to ad your
perspective on the occupational outlook for transwomen.

[DJ_Asia]

my exposure pretty much w/ the ladyboys is on a different plane,as most of my models are bargirls first and foremost.It is not unusual however to run into dozens working at the upscale makeup counters at the ritzy Paragon or hawking t-shirts on the 5th floor at MBK,or doing hair at one of the zillions of hair shops in BKK.
Awhile back one of my models told me she used to work for Thai Air @ the old Don Muang airport.One day an old friend happened by and gave her a big hug and off came her wig.Unfortunately her supervisor wasnt a typical tolerant Buddhist and informed her that if she liked her job and wanted to keep it,she would have to start appearing at work as a male effective immediately....so she quit.

Another person told me of her attorney up in Chiang Mai who is transgender,but that would seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

PM me when u know when u are coming Peggy and we can do Pantip together.

[LG]

Ecstatic- I was actually surprised to realise, from what you said, that the situation in the Philippines is so different from that in Thailand. I thought it was similar and that the Filipinos accepted the idea of a "third sex". What is the situation like in Korea, I wonder, where TS entertainers like Harisu and at least on girl band have had a fair amount of success.

Peggy- It is interesting that the idea of a "third sex" is embraced by some TSs but not by all. I understand that some TSs would prefer to be recognised as women rather than a nominal but undefined third category. Others welcome the idea of a third sex, while perhaps others might believe that the world is not black and white but all shades of grey as well.

DJ Asia- you have some interesting stories to tell. The girl at Thai Air was a victim of the same kind of intolerance that one might expect in the US and- to a lesser extent- Europe- but not, I would have thought, in Thailand. The story of the TG attorney is interesting. How easy is it for a TG or TS girl in Thailand to find a job outside modelling/porn/webcams and keep it? One very beautiful girl from the Philippines told me that in her country it is impossible and that all she can hope to do is work on a webcam site- her dream , she says, is to manage a few other girls on a site and then make enough to get her breasts done.
:lol:
As for running into dozens of ladyboys in Thailand, what can I say. When I move over there, will you show me around?


Anyway, this is a really interesting discussion. Let's keep it going.

[BrendaQG]

Let me put my position this way for you LG.

Given the two choices that soceity presents me. Man and Woman I choose woman. The womans role in society fits me better always has. Just by the nature of who I am even while living as a male it was mostly in name and not in fact. The way I think, act, move etc all gave the impression of a woman,....but there is the immutable fact that I am not female.

Here is the rough point.

There are some transsexuals in the world for whom the standard of what a woman is is physically being female. They belive that SRS make them just that. Sometimes they refere to it as "the magic of SRS". (HA!) That having SRS erases all ther experience as a male in society, indeed every trace of maleness from them. That they are now 100% women. They are their true self their "second self". :-? The advocate things like the notion of "Harry Benjamin Syndrome", wich if you read the websites of it's adocates carefully reveals how they feel about non-op or even hesistant pre-op transsexuals. That such people are not really transsexual in their book . They are "transgendered" they should be psychologically pathologized while "HBSer's" are off the hook. (Let us ask Dr. Russle Reid about how wise that is.)

Then there is myself and those of like mind to me. As I have said I identify as and with women and always have for that reason I should be treated exactly as a woman for all social pruposes. However their is the fact that I am not biologically female I know that I am confortable with that and I accept that. Hence I would like it if there were a third accepted category I could mark that on a form or whatever and not have to worry about comming out or being outed and such.

Tha's just me.

[Ecstatic]

LG: Yes, it was a bit of a surprise to me, too, but it made sense as soon as I thought about the cultural differences. I can't imagine being a transwoman and being called gay (OK, so we've seen it happen here, too, but it's not quite the same). As for careers, there are some options. It seems that many Filipina TGs become nurses (a shout out to Juliana Dominguez, I'd love to hear her comment on this), also work in fashion and tourism.

Brenda: You've hit on a very key word there: "a third accepted category." If only it were accepted--but you know, I think we're definitely moving that way, and we'll see real change in society down the line.

[LG]

Brenda, those are some interesting points. I can see why some girls like the idea of creating a third category and others do not. And as you say, in a world presented in just black and white where only two valid choices are present, the girls put themselves firmly in the "FEMALE" category rather than the "MALE" one. But if there were three accepted groupings...?

Maybe it is just a matter of a TS girl becoming comfortable with the realisation that- despite the SRS and all the other ops, despite the name changes and birth certificates and so on- there is still an underlying difference between genetic women and transwomen and that there is nothing wrong with difference- on the contrary it is something to be appreciated and valued, something that makes trans people unique in the same way that the Berdache were considered unique. But I don't know- perhaps even suggesting this would anger some transwomen, who have- after all- been through so much to be able to be recognised as women.

Ecstatic- I am still curious as to how transgirls are treated in different countries in Asia. Is there a society where they are truly accepted and valued rather than just tolerated or (worse) being taken advantage of. It seems Thailand is way ahead of the US, but do girls stand a chance of success in life or do most end up at the go-go clubs? And as for the Philippines, I would love to hear some girls opinions.

And what about other societies? For example, I have no idea of what goes on in African countries or in India. And- I'm thinking you will know more than most people here- I would be keen to hear your views on the Hindu deity Ardhanarishvara and whether that may have influenced the way transsexuals are viewed in Asia, particularly in India.

Would the closest equivalent to Ardhanarishvara in Greek mythology be Hermaphroditus (son of Hermes or Mercury and Aphrodite or Venus, brother of Dionysus or Bacchus ) who was born male but became intersexed when he was (to summarise) raped by a naiad (although a true hermaphrodite- and the word does originate from Hermaphroditus' name- is a completely different thing to a TS altogether)?

Anyway, great discussion and excellent input by all.


I wonder if Hara has noticed this thread. I think she too would have some interesting things to say.

[juliana_dominguez]

well transsexuality is defined by culture, transsexuals in Thailand are different from transsexuals here or Brazil, I'd say transsexuals here are more conservative. Filipinas are brought up and shaped by their Filipino values and culture, i also think that all transsexuals here are educated and i believe that's the key on having a bright and a nice future, a future away from porn or escorting/prostitution. well some girls end up in that because they wanted to earn big money so that it will help them with their transition, i for example is tempted to do porn and escorting cause i know it will help a lot with surgery, but at the end of the day, i'd think that ima Nurse, and i can earn good money too, not as quick as escorts do, cause 250USD per hour is huge money already if you put it equivalent to our money, like what i'd earn for a week is what an escort would earn for a day...

on the question on how transgirls are treated here in the Philippines, well if you ask people around on what can they say about transgirls is they wanted and they are amazed on how transgirls kept themselves to be very beautiful and can pass as a woman, people still get amazed and get their jaws dropped once they see a very beautiful one. of course, if you're an educated transgirl, people admire you on having such an amazing brain, i know a lot of transgirls who excell in colleges, universities. predominantly transgirls here can be seen working on the fashion, beauty field. that's very common, and of course girls here work as cam girls, escorts and pornstars... but saying all that i think we girls are very smart and the most amazing asian girls you'd know. :D

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I wonder if Hara has noticed this thread. I think she too would have some interesting things to say.

Yes, I have LG but still composing my thoughts about the subject (Hence, I'm posting on lighthearted one's). I'm working straight this week (since June 5th) and dont get any day off til June 18th unfortunately. :cry:

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

happy independence day hara girl!

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Ok here's a quick take about what Ecstatic has stated about transexuals being seen as bakla. Bakla in itself is the equivalent of transgender. Under bakla you have:

1. Gay guys/queer
2. Transvestites/Crossdressers
3. Transexuals

I think being a catholic nation and culturally anything beyond heterosexual male and female are considered bakla..aka "Third sex" as it is commonly refered to in the PI. We dont have elaborate distictions between gender classes back home unlike here in the US and Europe. Bakla is actually a derogatory term. So most tg's in the PI would slap or jump you if you called them bakla. It's sorta like calling a black person the N word. But when a fellow tgirl or gay guy calls another tgirl or gay guy Bakla its acceptable. Ironic huh? LOL

As far as work and careers are concerned for tgirls in the PI. Alot fo them work in Fashion, Interior design, Ad agencies, Architecture, Nursing, Dentistry, Health and Fitness etc. , Beauty trade (such as Salons working as hairdressers/colorist etc.) and ofcourse as showgirls in Japan Japanese loves New-halfs). ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

happy independence day hara girl!

Happy Independence day Juliana! Saan ang party? LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

happy independence day hara girl!

Happy Independence day Juliana! Saan ang party? LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

yea! katatapos lang ng board exams ko, sana makapasa! para RN na ako. it's nice to see a Filipina here on the forum, ate! im coming to California this summer maybe we can hangout.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

And as far as treatments of tg's in the PI..Well most filipino men are assholes (Most women are accepting of tg's). Ironically, the poorest guys that lives right next to the train tracks and didnt even finish high school diss/ridicule transexual people. For what purpose? I dont know. They think they could make some quick buck$ letting tg's suck their cock for $. Its pathetic. So you're out of luck if you're a tg and butt ugly and or masculine! Famine is what you get sexually. LOL Fortunately for me and my friends growing up..We could summon a whole basketball court of cute guys as easy as snapping our fingers. Haha :lol:





happy independence day hara girl!

Happy Independence day Juliana! Saan ang party? LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

yea! katatapos lang ng board exams ko, sana makapasa! para RN na ako. it's nice to see a Filipina here on the forum, ate! im coming to California this summer maybe we can hangout.

Syempre naman. Contact me the minute you get here. Ill help you find work sis! ;) Hoy, goodluck dyan sa exam mo (CGFN ba yan or Nclex?)..I hope you pass it!

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

And as far as treatments of tg's in the PI..Well most filipino men are assholes (Most women are accepting of tg's). Ironically, the poorest guys that lives right next to the train tracks and didnt even finish high school diss/ridicule transexual people. For what purpose? I dont know. They think they could make some quick buck$ letting tg's suck their cock for $. Its pathetic. So you're out of luck if you're a tg and butt ugly and or masculine! Famine is what you get sexually. LOL Fortunately for me and my friends growing up..We could summon a whole basketball court of cute guys as easy as snapping our fingers. Haha :lol:





happy independence day hara girl!

Happy Independence day Juliana! Saan ang party? LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

yea! katatapos lang ng board exams ko, sana makapasa! para RN na ako. it's nice to see a Filipina here on the forum, ate! im coming to California this summer maybe we can hangout.

Syempre naman. Contact me the minute you get here. Ill help you find work sis! ;) Hoy, goodluck dyan sa exam mo (CGFN ba yan or Nclex?)..I hope you pass it!

~Kisses.

HTG

wow! RN ka rin ba? dyan kasi ako mag-NCLEX sa Cali. pero magliliwaliw muna ago bago apply. haha

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Yep..CNA sis. ;) But who knows baka mag tuloy ako ng LVN? We'll see. :P

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

Yep..CNA sis. ;) But who knows baka mag tuloy ako ng LVN? We'll see. :P

~Kisses.

HTG

ay sosyal, wow naman! ate im so proud of you. :D

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Thanks! :P Ang daming pinoy dito. And ofcourse, marami ring mga gwapo. Haha..atleast dito girl ka (I'm loving it!), unlike dyan sa atin okray mga mhin gagawin kang mama! :roll: LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

Thanks! :P Ang daming pinoy dito. And ofcourse, marami ring mga gwapo. Haha..atleast dito girl ka (I'm loving it!), unlike dyan sa atin okray mga mhin gagawin kang mama! :roll: LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

yea! i have tons of family scattered all over the US, the last time i was there is last April 2006, saya! kasi ang dami kong naka-date na guys! and ang dami din nanliligaw and nagpapakilala sa akin. ibang iba talaga compared dito sa Pilipinas. dito dedma.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

yea! i have tons of family scattered all over the US, the last time i was there is last April 2006, saya! kasi ang dami kong naka-date na guys! and ang dami din nanliligaw and nagpapakilala sa akin. ibang iba talaga compared dito sa Pilipinas. dito dedma.

I know. Mga chaka naman! LOL pa deadma deadma pa. When I lived there, I only date guys na merong kaya..like anak ng mayor, taga BF homes, guys who goes to exclusive and reputable schools etc. Alam mo naman mga pinoy na bading o-okrayin ka. Sobra kasi ang status symbol back there sa atin. Oh and sa amin nga pala ang Pan de Manila (If you've heard of it?). But Shhhh..dont tell anyone. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

yea! i have tons of family scattered all over the US, the last time i was there is last April 2006, saya! kasi ang dami kong naka-date na guys! and ang dami din nanliligaw and nagpapakilala sa akin. ibang iba talaga compared dito sa Pilipinas. dito dedma.

I know. Mga chaka naman! LOL pa deadma deadma pa. When I lived there, I only date guys na merong kaya..like anak ng mayor, taga BF homes, guys who goes to exclusive and reputable schools etc. Alam mo naman mga pinoy na bading o-okrayin ka. Sobra kasi ang status symbol back there sa atin. Oh and sa amin nga pala ang Pan de Manila (If you've heard of it?). But Shhhh..dont tell anyone. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

parehas tayo, pero dito ang mga lalaki halos puro sex lang ang gusto tapos kapag iuuwi ka na ipapakilala sa parents nila, hala, lagot ka na! Pan de Manila, wow, sosyal, so kelan ka balik dito? ako kasi mag apply na ng immigrant visa, sabi nila, madali naman daw, kasi Nurse ako. ate, labas tayo kapag nandyan na ako this summer.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

yea! i have tons of family scattered all over the US, the last time i was there is last April 2006, saya! kasi ang dami kong naka-date na guys! and ang dami din nanliligaw and nagpapakilala sa akin. ibang iba talaga compared dito sa Pilipinas. dito dedma.

I know. Mga chaka naman! LOL pa deadma deadma pa. When I lived there, I only date guys na merong kaya..like anak ng mayor, taga BF homes, guys who goes to exclusive and reputable schools etc. Alam mo naman mga pinoy na bading o-okrayin ka. Sobra kasi ang status symbol back there sa atin. Oh and sa amin nga pala ang Pan de Manila (If you've heard of it?). But Shhhh..dont tell anyone. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

parehas tayo, pero dito ang mga lalaki halos puro sex lang ang gusto tapos kapag iuuwi ka na ipapakilala sa parents nila, hala, lagot ka na! Pan de Manila, wow, sosyal, so kelan ka balik dito? ako kasi mag apply na ng immigrant visa, sabi nila, madali naman daw, kasi Nurse ako. ate, labas tayo kapag nandyan na ako this summer.

Lalaki dyan I tell you. Ipapakilala ka sa parents nila para give ka rin ng dats, cake or whatnot sa kanila! LOL GOD! I'm so happy I'm here ('95 pa ako rito but umuuwi ako here and there)! No. Do it from here. I'll give you contacts of people who can help you for an h1 then apply for an immigrant visa. Sige, ready mo sarili mo and we'll go out clubbing sa hollywood or something! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[LG]

Sorry to interrupt your Filipino reunion (I'm joking Hara, you know I'm only upset because I can't understand), but Hara wrote

Fortunately for me and my friends growing up..We could summon a whole basketball court of cute guys as easy as snapping our fingers. Haha :lol:
To this I feel I must comment by saying that those guys were lucky bastards.

I won't interrupt again for now- although I'll reply on the points relevant to the thread topic later. Happy Independence Day to you both. I'm sure you sound very sexy talking in your language. :wink:

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Sorry to interrupt your Filipino reunion (I'm joking Hara, you know I'm only upset because I can't understand), but Hara wrote

Fortunately for me and my friends growing up..We could summon a whole basketball court of cute guys as easy as snapping our fingers. Haha :lol:
To this I feel I must comment by saying that those guys were lucky bastards.

I won't interrupt again for now- although I'll reply on the points relevant to the thread topic later. Happy Independence Day to you both. I'm sure you sound very sexy talking in your language. :wink:

LOL Not at all LG. Guy's in the PI are easy when and if one looks good and close to the real thing. ;) I just call it perks! God I miss those days.. I make them line up in single file. LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[LG]

LOL Not at all LG. Guy's in the PI are easy when and if one looks good and close to the real thing. ;) I just call it perks! God I miss those days.. I make them line up in single file. LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

:shock: Okay, sexy, now I'm going to need a cold shower. :lol:

And I'd line up for you any time.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Haha LOL The last time I made guys line up for me was back in NYC when I worked at a fetish club! Funn Fun ofcourse! :lol: ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

yea! i have tons of family scattered all over the US, the last time i was there is last April 2006, saya! kasi ang dami kong naka-date na guys! and ang dami din nanliligaw and nagpapakilala sa akin. ibang iba talaga compared dito sa Pilipinas. dito dedma.

I know. Mga chaka naman! LOL pa deadma deadma pa. When I lived there, I only date guys na merong kaya..like anak ng mayor, taga BF homes, guys who goes to exclusive and reputable schools etc. Alam mo naman mga pinoy na bading o-okrayin ka. Sobra kasi ang status symbol back there sa atin. Oh and sa amin nga pala ang Pan de Manila (If you've heard of it?). But Shhhh..dont tell anyone. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

parehas tayo, pero dito ang mga lalaki halos puro sex lang ang gusto tapos kapag iuuwi ka na ipapakilala sa parents nila, hala, lagot ka na! Pan de Manila, wow, sosyal, so kelan ka balik dito? ako kasi mag apply na ng immigrant visa, sabi nila, madali naman daw, kasi Nurse ako. ate, labas tayo kapag nandyan na ako this summer.

Lalaki dyan I tell you. Ipapakilala ka sa parents nila para give ka rin ng dats, cake or whatnot sa kanila! LOL GOD! I'm so happy I'm here ('95 pa ako rito but umuuwi ako here and there)! No. Do it from here. I'll give you contacts of people who can help you for an h1 then apply for an immigrant visa. Sige, ready mo sarili mo and we'll go out clubbing sa hollywood or something! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

girl, bakit gising ka pa, it's late! haha well thanks ha, i know we'd have lots of stuff to share and talk about, of course, filipino tayo e, lahat ng experiences, buhay buhay, haaay you name it.

[juliana_dominguez]

Sorry to interrupt your Filipino reunion (I'm joking Hara, you know I'm only upset because I can't understand), but Hara wrote

Fortunately for me and my friends growing up..We could summon a whole basketball court of cute guys as easy as snapping our fingers. Haha :lol:
To this I feel I must comment by saying that those guys were lucky bastards.

I won't interrupt again for now- although I'll reply on the points relevant to the thread topic later. Happy Independence Day to you both. I'm sure you sound very sexy talking in your language. :wink:

haha sorry LG for making this thread a chat thread between me and hara.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

yea! i have tons of family scattered all over the US, the last time i was there is last April 2006, saya! kasi ang dami kong naka-date na guys! and ang dami din nanliligaw and nagpapakilala sa akin. ibang iba talaga compared dito sa Pilipinas. dito dedma.

I know. Mga chaka naman! LOL pa deadma deadma pa. When I lived there, I only date guys na merong kaya..like anak ng mayor, taga BF homes, guys who goes to exclusive and reputable schools etc. Alam mo naman mga pinoy na bading o-okrayin ka. Sobra kasi ang status symbol back there sa atin. Oh and sa amin nga pala ang Pan de Manila (If you've heard of it?). But Shhhh..dont tell anyone. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

parehas tayo, pero dito ang mga lalaki halos puro sex lang ang gusto tapos kapag iuuwi ka na ipapakilala sa parents nila, hala, lagot ka na! Pan de Manila, wow, sosyal, so kelan ka balik dito? ako kasi mag apply na ng immigrant visa, sabi nila, madali naman daw, kasi Nurse ako. ate, labas tayo kapag nandyan na ako this summer.

Lalaki dyan I tell you. Ipapakilala ka sa parents nila para give ka rin ng dats, cake or whatnot sa kanila! LOL GOD! I'm so happy I'm here ('95 pa ako rito but umuuwi ako here and there)! No. Do it from here. I'll give you contacts of people who can help you for an h1 then apply for an immigrant visa. Sige, ready mo sarili mo and we'll go out clubbing sa hollywood or something! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

girl, bakit gising ka pa, it's late! haha well thanks ha, i know we'd have lots of stuff to share and talk about, of course, filipino tayo e, lahat ng experiences, buhay buhay, haaay you name it.

Girl, Hindi ako makatulog. I had a latenight out with my sister, my gay guy friend and my sisters bf. LOL I need some lunesta or something. Ive to be at work at 9am today too..Maybe I'll drink 2 redbulls. LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[LG]

haha sorry LG for making this thread a chat thread between me and hara.

It's okay I suppose. I'm here to help. Nothing's better than helping to bring two lovely girls together (unless it involves bringing them both to me- that would be good too :wink: ). But there's always PMs.

As for me, hindi ako marunong mag-Tagalog. Hindi ako nakakaintindi ng Tagalog. Sayang!

I looked all that up, by the way :D

[juliana_dominguez]

haha sorry LG for making this thread a chat thread between me and hara.

It's okay I suppose. I'm here to help. Nothing's better than helping to bring two lovely girls together (unless it involves bringing them both to me- that would be good too :wink: ). But there's always PMs.

As for me, hindi ako marunong mag-Tagalog. Hindi ako nakakaintindi ng Tagalog. Sayang!

I looked all that up, by the way :D

haha you've found a great tagalog translator site. so cool. well it's nice that there's nice people here.

[Ecstatic]

Well, well, well, I knew magic would happen once Hara and Juliana started communicating here! Love reading the mix of Tagalog and English and wondering just what's being said, lol. Glad to see two sisters getting together on the board this way.

And thanks to you both for your contributions to this discussion. You've clarified and expanded the few points I made about transsexuals in the PI.


Ecstatic- I am still curious as to how transgirls are treated in different countries in Asia. Is there a society where they are truly accepted and valued rather than just tolerated or (worse) being taken advantage of. It seems Thailand is way ahead of the US, but do girls stand a chance of success in life or do most end up at the go-go clubs? And as for the Philippines, I would love to hear some girls opinions.
As I commented earlier, I think that LOS does have the most enlightened cultural attitude towards the third sex, but within the limits of their patriarchal and in many ways conservative culture. It's the Buddhist principle of compassion which leads to tolerance and acceptance of people for who they are in this life as the current state of their past karma.

As Hara and Juliana both indicated, the Filipinos are very conservative regarding transsexuality and sexuality. I'm discovering this firsthand as < plug >I'm launching a new website dedicated to Filipina transsexuals, www.piladyboy.com in partnership with Filipina escort Aubrey. While several sites feature Filipinas among their models, to my knowledge this is the first to exclusively feature Filipinas. At least so far, and for the updates planned for the next few months, the models are all Filipinas who work as escorts, visiting Singapore, Bangkok, Hong Kong, and other major Asian cities.< /plug > Yet there's a shyness about many of them. One of the initial requirements for the site, in fact, was to block PI IP addresses.


And what about other societies? For example, I have no idea of what goes on in African countries or in India. And- I'm thinking you will know more than most people here- I would be keen to hear your views on the Hindu deity Ardhanarishvara and whether that may have influenced the way transsexuals are viewed in Asia, particularly in India.
I don't know much about other Asian countries, though. AFAIK, Laos, Cambodia, Viet Nam etc. have similar cultural attitudes to the Thai, but perhaps not as open? I don't know much about the Hejira of India. Many Japanese are fascinated by "newhalf" or transsexuals, and many Thai and Filipina TGs visit Japan as it's very lucrative.

As regards Ardhanarishvara, I think the concept is quite different to that of Hermaphroditus. Ardhanarishvara represents the union of the male and female principles, of the God and Goddess, and is much closer to the concept of yin/yang. The archetypal Ardhanarishvara is Shiva and Parvarti, his consort; the earliest images (from coins dating to a few centuries before Christ) were of the mixed male/female form of Shiva and Parvarti, but in these representations it's half male, half female. 'Ardhanarishvara' combines three words- 'ardha', 'nari' and 'ishvara.' Ardha means 'half', nari means 'woman' and ishvara means 'Lord' or 'God'; thus, Ardhanarishvara is the Lord who is half woman. This dualism is fundamental to Hinduism, but it really isn't dualism at all: the truth is the union of the two as one. We see this in such pairings as shiva/shakti (the lord and his power, the male/female aspects), prana/prakriti (energy/matter), and linga/yoni (phallus/vagina).


Would the closest equivalent to Ardhanarishvara in Greek mythology be Hermaphroditus (son of Hermes or Mercury and Aphrodite or Venus, brother of Dionysus or Bacchus ) who was born male but became intersexed when he was (to summarise) raped by a naiad (although a true hermaphrodite- and the word does originate from Hermaphroditus' name- is a completely different thing to a TS altogether)?

I think Ardhanarishvara is quite different to the intersexuality of Hermaphroditus, though an argument could be made that Ardhanarishvara represents the cosmic union and Hermaphroditus the individual.


I wonder if Hara has noticed this thread. I think she too would have some interesting things to say.
You've had your answer! They seem to have hit it off well.

[LG]

haha you've found a great tagalog translator site. so cool. well it's nice that there's nice people here.

Thank you Juliana. I'm not a bad guy. I'm just a little lonely. :( But reading posts from girls like you and Hara cheers me up.

Ecstatic, yes the girls have hit it off and I wish I could understand (maybe they were saying "LG is a really sweet guy- when I finally meet him I will fall at his feet and promise undying love to him"). Very interesting ideas too and a whole new kind of education for me (fuck the degrees- they only take up space on the wall- this is far more interesting).

Questions and points:
Do I understand correctly that your website on Filipino girls is blocked in the Philippines? Are the girls afraid of blowing their cover?

I was never aware of all these differences from country to country and thought that the "third sex" concept existed in both Thailand, the Philippines and elsewhere. Form what you're saying the different approaches are due to different cultures which in turn are based on different religions, with the Buddhists being more tolerant. But why is the Land of Smiles so far ahead of other Buddhist countries in South-East Asia.

And, another question is: how can we bring about a little of this attitude to the west. Asian ideas are pretty hip nowadays- you see people with tattoos in Chinese, Asian food is popular everywhere and people are studying and converting to Buddhism. Could this be another part of Asian culture that we could import.

And how does that help the girls? Not just in Europe and the US but also in the Philippines where they are not treated perhaps as they would like?

And really, what's wrong with me? I joined these forums to jack off to porn and here I am 2 1/2 years later waxing lyrical about acceptance of a "third sex" in the West and trying to help the girls. And the thing is, I mean it!
:lol:

[Ecstatic]

Ecstatic, yes the girls have hit it off and I wish I could understand (maybe they were saying "LG is a really sweet guy- when I finally meet him I will fall at his feet and promise undying love to him").
Probably best you don't run that through the Tagalog-English translator then, lol. Seriously, I love it--great example of where I think some mix of other languages on the forum can be entertaining (if frustrating).


Questions and points:
Do I understand correctly that your website on Filipino girls is blocked in the Philippines? Are the girls afraid of blowing their cover?
Yes, that's right. I had to set up an IP to country database and php/mysql query to sniff IP addresses and block those which match the PI (redirecting them to a "sorry but you cannot access this site" page). Of course, it's ultimately impossible to quarantine information on the "interweb," but this reduces the chances of them being seen by those they don't want to see.


I was never aware of all these differences from country to country and thought that the "third sex" concept existed in both Thailand, the Philippines and elsewhere. Form what you're saying the different approaches are due to different cultures which in turn are based on different religions, with the Buddhists being more tolerant. But why is the Land of Smiles so far ahead of other Buddhist countries in South-East Asia.
I think it's the twofold reason of being Buddhist and never being colonized, so never internalizing Western mores as other countries did (to varying degrees, of course, with the PI being the most deeply influenced). Also, it's something about the character of the Thai people; they don't call it the Land of Smiles for naught. But as I've said before, others here have firsthand and extensive experience of visiting and living in Thailand; I base my conclusions on fairly extensive reading and long conversations with several Thai friends (tgirl and not; my wife and I are friendly with the owner of a local Thai restaurant).


And, another question is: how can we bring about a little of this attitude to the west. Asian ideas are pretty hip nowadays- you see people with tattoos in Chinese, Asian food is popular everywhere and people are studying and converting to Buddhism. Could this be another part of Asian culture that we could import.
I don't know about importing this aspect of Thai or Asian culture, although Buddhism is one of the fastest growing religions in the US. (The real secret to Buddhism, by the way, is what they call "don't know mind": if you admit that you don't know (whether there's a creator, how the world into being, or anything for that matter), it frees the mind. Suzuki Roshi calls it "Beginner's Mind" (also the title of a book he wrote maybe 40 years ago or more).)

But I think that the West is evolving very quickly in this regard, and will outstrip the east. Social change regarding transsexuals may seem painfully slow to those living through it, but historically the progress that's been made since Christine Jorgensen stepped off the plane as a woman in 1952 is tremendous.


[And how does that help the girls? Not just in Europe and the US but also in the Philippines where they are not treated perhaps as they would like?
I think being respectful is the best way to help the girls, regardless of what level you interact with them on.


[And really, what's wrong with me? I joined these forums to jack off to porn and here I am 2 1/2 years later waxing lyrical about acceptance of a "third sex" in the West and trying to help the girls. And the thing is, I mean it!
:lol:

:) :lol:

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

well it's nice that there's nice people here.

I agree. Though there are occational drama's on here..Its not as bad as the other forum we used to frequent! Thankgoodness Seanchai took over. LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[juliana_dominguez]

well it's nice that there's nice people here.

I agree. Though there are occational drama's on here..Its not as bad as the other forum we used to frequent! Thankgoodness Seanchai took over. LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

i know what you're talking about girl, that forum is not that bad. Seanchai's really keeping a nice job on making it a nice and friendly forum.

ecstatic, great post.

[LG]

A slightly lengthy but very fascinating article on transgenderism in different cultures:

Blending genders
By Katrina Fox.
6/06/2007 6:44:15 PM

http://www.evolutionpublishing.com.au/sxnews/features/INDIA-EUNUCH-CONVENTION-ALL.jpg
The transgender liberation movement in the West came into its own in the 1990s, but other cultures have their own take on sex and gender diversity, writes Katrina Fox.


From ancient Greek cults to Mahayana Buddhism, Hinduism and even early Christianity, the concept of transcending or blending gender has been around for centuries. In the West, the German-born sexologist Dr Harry Benjamin coined the term 'transsexualism' in 1966 to describe individuals who were born biologically one sex but believed they were the other (such as a woman 'trapped' in a man's body and vice versa).

Transsexualism was subsequently hijacked by the medical profession and deemed a pathology, for which the solution was to undergo psychiatric assessment, take hormones and eventually have genital realignment surgery. Transsexuals were required to comply with stereotypical dress codes and behaviours attributed to their opposite gender, and under no circumstances were they allowed a sexual orientation outside that of strictly heterosexual.

Enter the 1990s and the birth of the 'transgender' and 'genderqueer' movements, in which a plethora of sex and gender identities emerged. Some people identified as having no sex or gender, some considered themselves male and female, and others claimed they were a 'third' or 'other' gender.

Such concepts of third, fourth and more genders are not new to non-western cultures, however.

Marjorie Anne Napewastewin-Schutzer is Sihasapa, Lakota, a Native American who hails from the Blackfoot tribe of the Sioux Nation. Addressing a conference of professionals working in the field of transsexualism in 1996, she offered some interesting insights into her culture's perspective on gender.

"As a gender-crosser, as a transsexual person in Lakota society, we are known as 'Winkte'," she said. "My people call me 'two-souls-person'. As Winkte I have always been an important personage in my society. Culturally, socially and religiously we function as a social adhesive, offering continuity and the promise of our continued existence as a people. We were never a threat to a rigid, polarised and discriminating sexual structure. That is to say, not before the coming of the white man's priests and their confused and narrow view of the manner of things. The 'third gender' solution snakes into the past and connects with Native American societal structure from thousands of years ago. Our societies and our cultures existed, functioned quite well, yes even flourished, long before the Europeans ever thought of challenging the 'monsters' which lived in their tears and which swam in the middle of the Atlantic!"

In a number of Native American tribes, this cultural institution of bestowing a special gender status on males preferring to do women's work and adopting what is considered 'feminine' behaviour, and vice versa, used to be referred to as 'berdache'. However, because of its etymology - the Arab word 'bardaj' meaning 'prostitute' - it was rejected by Native Americans and replaced with 'two-spirit people'. Descriptors such as 'Winkte' vary according to the different tribes and cultures.

As Napewastewin-Schutzer points out, two-spirit people are welcomed in Native American culture, with children often identified as such from an early age when they show interest in work activities that are traditionally associated with the 'opposite' sex. At this time, they are reclassified by members of their community into a 'third' or 'other' gender.

A similar occurrence takes place in Samoa, where some boys are brought up as girls. Known as the fa'afafine, they too are identified at a young age because of their propensity for 'feminine' tasks. Unlike Western cultures which associate 'feminine' or 'effeminate' behaviour of men with sexuality, both the Native Americans and Samoans place the focus squarely on labour. It is the influence of the West, however, that has led to some fa'afafine who move out of their village to don make-up and flamboyant female attire.

"One of my informants stated that before Western contact, fa'afafine were simply 'feminine boys', but exposure to Western movies taught them, and presumably women as well, that clothing, make-up and appearance in general could be used as a more definitive signifier of gender," says Johanna Schmidt in her 2001 paper, Redefining Fa'afafine: Western Discourses and the Construction of Transgenderism in Samoa.

This Western influence has attracted negative consequences, in that it has created a level of homophobia in Samoa which did not previously exist, according to Schmidt. "Concepts of 'gay' and 'straight' have not really been relevant in Samoa in the past, and there is no specific Samoan term for 'homosexual'," she says.

Over in Thailand, the 'kathoey' or 'lady boys' are a major tourist attraction. Yet while they are revered in some parts of the country, they also face discrimination and hostility from their families. Writing in a new book, Male Bodies Women's Souls, a number of transgendered Thai students lament the shame they feel they bring on their parents by being a kathoey - or the more polite and preferred term 'sao braphet song' - as well as how difficult it is for them to find love.

"There can be no true love between sao braphet song and men," says 'Lara'. "Even if he loves us, one day he must go back to his previous group ... he probably cannot endure the opinions of those around him."

The word 'kathoey' isn't easily translated into Western concepts of transgenderism, since it can refer to a variety of 'non-traditional males', from gay men through to what would be called transsexuals in the West. This also holds true for the 'bakla' in the Philippines, something that 33-year-old Linda Montana believes is a positive thing.

"All this 'trans this', 'trans that' can be confusing," Montana, who migrated to Australia from the Philippines 20 years ago as a "13-year-old boy", says. "I refuse to label myself because I see myself as a person, and I'd rather be referred to as a someone not a something."

Even as a young child, Montana identified more with a female gender identity. "I went to a Catholic boys' school and it just didn't feel right," she explains. "I was made to do basketball, which is a masculine sport in the Philippines, and I hated it, so I gravitated towards volleyball which is synonymous with a girls' sport. For as long as I could remember, I've been closer to girls than boys."

While discrimination occurs in both Buddhist Thailand and the Catholic Philippines, Montana believes Filipino culture is open-minded towards diversity. "I remember as a child, every year there was a parade, and all the entrants were beautiful women but when you had a closer look, they were transgender," she recalls. "They were these glamorous creatures, and I knew that I was leaning that way."

In India, and some parts of Pakistan exists a group of people known as the hijra. Recognised as a third gender since recorded history and clearly acknowledged in Vedic culture, throughout Hinduism and in the courts of Islamic rulers, the hijra live in groups related to their own Gharana (family).

Girish Kumar is director of the Humsafar Trust in Mumbai, a gender, sexuality, health and equal rights organisation for men who have sex with men and the transgender, cross-dressing and hijra communities - and a former hijra.

"A hijra belongs to either one of the seven Gharanas: Block-waale, Lashkar-waale, Bhendibazaar-waale, Chakla-waale, Laalan-waale, Pune-waale and Dongri-waale," he tells SX.

"The ultimate authority of each Gharana is the person called Nayak, who cannot be questioned or challenged by any hijras. Nayaks have the ultimate say in any disputes arising within the hijra communities. Gurus are the senior hijras who accept the junior hijras as their 'chelas'. Some of the Gurus serve as representatives of the Nayak in different areas or cities. Gurus under a particular Gharana are usually of equal rank, though age and wealth may also determine the status of a particular Guru. The Guru is respectfully considered as a mother-in-law and is supposed to take care of all the needs of their respective chelas."

While some hijras are born intersex (with male and female reproductive or genital organs), others undergo genital modification which involves the removal of the penis, testicles and scrotum in a religious ritual (hijras are commonly known in English as 'eunuchs'). This is not the case for all hijras, though, with many not undergoing such emasculation procedures.

The hijras wear colourful clothes, make-up and jewellery and earn their living in three ways: Mangti (asking for alms), Pun (commercial sex work), and Badai (dancing and blessing at happy occasions, such as marriage or a child's birth ceremony). Most people will give the hijras a fee at such events, for fear that the hijras will curse them.

Although the hijras live and dress as females, they don't generally try to pass as women - unlike their Western transsexual counterparts.

Estimated numbers of hijras vary from 50,000 to 5 million in India alone, and feelings towards them from the general community are mixed. Many hijras face discrimination in housing, education and employment, while others are liked and even revered - one such case being Shabnam Mausi, who became India's first hijra MP in 1999, and whose story was documented in the Bollywood musical of the same name.

In the West, modern-day gender warriors are fighting for their right to legally exist outside the male/female gender binary. They are demanding to be granted documentation recognising them as 'other'. They are petitioning the government, employers and organisations to include an extra box next to the 'M' and 'F' for them to tick when asked about their gender identity. They are forging new and exciting frontiers in gender territory.

Or maybe they're not so new.

As Napewastewin-Schutzer reminds us: "The remote in time or distance is always strange. The familiar present is always natural and a matter of course. Beyond the narrow range of our horizon, imagination creates a new world, but as we advance in any direction, or as we go back over forgotten paths, we find ever a continuity and succession. The human race is one in thought and action.

"In Lakota we say 'mitakuye oyasin' (we are all related). The systems of our highest modern civilisation have their counterparts among all the nations, and their chain of parallels stretches backward, link by link, until we find their origin and interpretation in the customs and rites of our own barbarian ancestors, or of our still existing aboriginal tribes. There is nothing new under the sun."

Male Bodies Women's Souls by LeeRay Costa and Andrew Matzner is published by the Haworth Press.
This Week in SX..

[peggygee]

^ Great article, will have a few comments shortly. ^

Also, this may be of interest:

STRAP

(Society Of Transsexual Women Of The Philipines)

http://www.tsphilippines.com/home.htm


I got a chance to peruse it, and immmensely enjoyed

it, particularly the Ezine - Ouspoken.

http://www.tsphilippines.com/beinvolved.htm

[DJ_Asia]

The differences between Thailand and other SE Asian countries are extreme when it comes to the girls....

In Vietnam....The only provisions in the codes that may refer to deviant sexuality are the prohibition against "men who wear weird or sorcerous garments" (Le Code, article 640; Huy and Tai 1987,1:269)
The legal silence on homosexuality as such does not mean that Vietnamese authorities cannot find some legal basis for punishing homosexual behavior, since crimes such as "undermining public morality" can be used (as similar crimes of "public indecency" or "soliciting" are in the U.S.) to prosecute homosexuality
Activism: one grassroots gay AIDS outreach group
Economy: tiny underground pink economy, discos and bars
Legal: not illegal
Recent Events: same-sex marriage for a male couple and a female
couple. Female couple was subsequently bullied into separating by petty officials.
Tolerance: traditional tolerance
Venues: growing, especially in Saigon
Visibility: invisible

In Cambodia however homosexuality is legal and they have their own Gay Pride Festivals.I have shot one Cambodian girl for my website.
Venues: cruising only
Recent Events: same-sex marriage for female couple reported
Tolerance: traditional tolerance, no religious prohibition
Visibility: invisible

Myanmar Venues: cruising only
Tolerance: traditional tolerance, no Buddhist prohibition
Visibility: invisible

Indonesia Activism: well organized, broad interest GLBT groups hold national meetings.
Economy: minimal pink economy
Legal: not illegal
Lesbian: minimal and largely invisible
Publications: minor
Tolerance: traditional tolerance, some traditional homosexual activity documented. Islam largely tolerant here.
Venues: only in larger cities, large cruise and transgender scene
Visibility: visibility, especially transgender

Laos Legal: punishable offense
Venues: cruising only
Tolerance: no Buddhist prohibition
Visibility: invisible

Malaysia Activism: one grassroots gay AIDS outreach group
Economy: small underground pink economy
Legal: Sodomy and fellatio are illegal. Muslim GLBT are also subject to religious law.
Recent Events: Police arrest 50 transexuals at private pageant. Activity at local disco suspended after their attempt to host a gay pride party.
Tolerance: traditional tolerance. Islamic anti-gay intolerance.
Venues: only in largest cities
Visibility: largely invisible
I have 1 Malay girl on my sitebut I shot her in Singapore.Although I did see quite a few TS's in KL.

Singapore many Thai girls go to Singapore to work,charging 2-6 times what they make in Thailand.
Activism: grass-roots G&L group disbanded by government threat. Smaller, private social and support groups exist as well as Internet entities.
Economy: large underground pink economy
Legal: homosexual activities illegal, privacy not protected. Gays can serve compulsory military duty, however those who declare "302" status are separated, and usually stigmatized. That declaration also goes into your record and can be read by future employers.
Lesbian: small scene exists
Publications: one major, some imported English language books.
Tolerance: socially stigmatised, severe Christian anti-gay
prohibition. Educated, young population largely tolerant. Intolerant officials. Frequent entrapment and public humiliation.
Venues: plentiful
Visibility: largely invisible. Homosexuality and transgenderism have emerged as a cultural issue in the arts.

I dug these up on the net and the rules and legality issues are current up to 1998

[BrendaQG]

Good article nothing about it is surprising though.

To understand why some countries that practice the same religion can be so different on transgenderism there are only three words you need to know.

Colonization, colonization, colonization.

While so many countries have a traditional place for transgenderism in them not many really respect that tradition. Namely those countries that were colonized where the colonizers had great cultural influence are the worst on transgenderism.

Take Malaysia and it's "Islamic anti-gay intolerance" ( :-/ ). The same explanation that applies to Buddhist's former colonies applies to Islamic former colonies. Malaysia like Indonesia was colonized by the Portuguese. Most of the Islamic world was colonized by someone or the other. Except for Iran and Afghanistan. To any knowledgeable person Iran is known for being relatively accepting of transssexuals (so ok gay activist in the west want to paint it as accepting transsexuals instead of facing being gay. People who think that are just a breath away from thinking that all transsexuals east or west should "face just being gay men". :roll: ).

Consider stories like this
THE PAKISTANI EQUIVALENT OF STONEWALL? PROBABLY NOT (http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2007/04/pakistani-equivalent-of-stonewall.html) This person describes a wedding he went to in Afghanistan which featured transgendered entertainers.

Countries of South and South East Asia struggle internally and sometimes violently with this issue. Should transgenderism have it's traditional place or should it not. In a certain ass backward way it is the more western colonizers point of view that the uneducated religious conservatives think is the traditional Islamic point of view.

consider this news item.
PAKISTAN: TALIBAN MILITANTS BEAT UP DANCERS (http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.404364601&par=0) Which is about Taliban acting "In the name of Allah" attacking some Mukhanathin. Then other Pashtun tribesmen (who are also Muslims) acting "in the name of Allah" to avenge those girls.
The rest of Pakistani society is just as torn on this issue. They know for a fact that in the past, before the British, such people plied their trades quite openly and unmolested. But the have also absorbed some British attitudes towards sex and gender.

The only difference between Iran, Afganistan and The more remote parts of Pakistan on one hand; and Places like Maylasia on the other hand is exposure to western cultural (not so much religious) influence. Europe even before Christianity is with some exceptions not known for it's widespread acceptance of transgenderism or male feminity.

[Ecstatic]

Indeed, an interesting article, LG. One point: the article states: "Over in Thailand, the 'kathoey' or 'lady boys' are a major tourist attraction. Yet while they are revered in some parts of the country, they also face discrimination and hostility from their families." This is often true, but not universally so. Several Thai girls I know have told me how very loving and supportive their families are, and their family bonds are deep. But then there are those who are virtually disowned by their families.

Brenda, you make the same point I did, with greater emphasis: the colonizing influence can be very strong indeed.

I await Peggy's comments....

[peggygee]

I await Peggy's comments....

And you know that I am chomping at the bit. :wink:

But yes this a great thread, dealing with the
multi national / cultural aspects of transgenderism.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/earth-globe.gif

[LG]

Good points everyone- I'm still trying to digest it all and comment on every point made. Your input and the article have really enlightened me and I think we've all learned something from each other.

The question is: where do we go from here? How can we take the best parts of different cultures to create a world where transsexuals are not just accepted but valued and where the men who love and admire them are no longer viewed as perverts?

I think we can all help- some more than others. Ideas?

[Tanuki]

nice thread, I tried to start one like this and it was met with the weakest of possibel interest. I'm gonna have to go back and read all of this later.

[LG]

Since we've been discussing TG culture in Brazil, I'm wondering if anyone has any more input on this.