Skin tones

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

This isnt about race. This is simply about varied skin tones inside varied races. In asean cultures and counties like Japan, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, China, Philippines, India etc, The more "fairer" a girl means she is high up on the heirarchy (and are thought of as "Regal" and or rich) as opposed to a girl with darker skin tones (which has always been thought "unattractive" and impoverish). In asian men it's the complete reverse. The more "fairer" a guy, the more he is thought of to be effeminate and the "darker" the guy, means he is manly.

This is so True in asian cultures which is WHY skin whitening products are a multi billion dollar business. People are going crazy for glutathione pills, skin peeling solutions, whitening creams etc.

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10995954/Skin_Whitening_Pill_Glutathione.jpg

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11170548/Super_L_glutathione_Skin_Whitening_Pills.jpg

http://www.whiterskin.com/images/index_07.jpg

Here in the US skin tone isnt much of an issue or has it? For example: Does subtle "skin tones" within races have any significance? In African-americans..Are light skinned snobbish (elitism) of darker skinned ones and or vice versa? How about in Latin cultures?

~Kisses.

HTG

[Nooksack]

I come from mixed heritage although it's predominantly Black and I think that often if you were to see a lighter skinned black person, people assume that they are less aggressive and more sophisticated than a darker black person. It doesn't occur to me until I see it when I'm out with my other cousins, but I would definitely agree that skin tone, no matter the country, has some significance.

For instance, I tend to think that paler white people are less threatening to me. I attribute their inability to get in touch with their melanin to not being outside so much and thus not being in great shape. Is it a generalization that probably isn't true? Sure, but it's how I think.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Interesting inputs Nooksac. :P

~Kisses.

HTG

[TJT]

It's a complex thing. My father refused to marry my mother because her family had "Black" blood? My father's family is White in name,but has a large Native American admixture? My Dad was actually quite a bit darker than my Mom. That was about race in name and law. (It was the 1950's South,things were way different then.)

When I was in college I dated a very pretty girl who was a dark chocolate brown. I was her first boyfriend as none of the other guys would go out w/ her because she was too "dark". That was about skin tone and the bias towards lighter skin. (Historically Black College in the 70's.)

[SkyTwo]

I'd go with a more universally cultural explanation. Fair skin denotes less exposure to the sun, which means less manual labor. And considering that every human culture was centered around manual labor (agriculture, mainly) until pretty recently, that meant you were something special. At least in the eyes of the many.

I suspect it isn't any different from weight. Historically, plump women were considered attractive around the world because it also represented wealth-- and along with it, ease and comfort. Just the sort of thing everyone dreams of marrying into. Now that we identify poverty with obesity, we equate pasty white tubbos with grubworms. Nasty, huh?

And I'd argue that your point about pale Asian men being considered effeminate the opposite side of the same coin. Androgynous prettyboys might be all the rage in developed Asia (which could well tie in with the above arguments, now that it's everyone's dream to strike it rich and live a life of leisure), but most cultures persist in identifying masculinity with physicality-- and in that case, having a leathery hide from working under the sun would constitute a "genuine" masculine figure as opposed to a sissyboy who spent his days obsessing over fashion.

What do ya think, Hara-chan?

[SkyTwo]

This isnt about race. This is simply about varied skin tones inside varied races.

Just a friendly reminder, everyone.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I'd go with a more universally cultural explanation. Fair skin denotes less exposure to the sun, which means less manual labor. And considering that every human culture was centered around manual labor (agriculture, mainly) until pretty recently, that meant you were something special. At least in the eyes of the many.



I agree! :P


most cultures persist in identifying masculinity with physicality-- and in that case, having a leathery hide from working under the sun would constitute a "genuine" masculine figure as opposed to a sissyboy who spent his days obsessing over fashion.

What do ya think, Hara-chan?

Exactly why fairer asian men are "thought" of to be effeminate because of the fact you've just mentioned. LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[peggygee]

The more "fairer" a girl means she is high up on the heirarchy (and are thought of as "Regal" and or rich) as opposed to a girl with darker skin tones (which has always been thought "unattractive" and impoverish). In asian men it's the complete reverse. The more "fairer" a guy, the more he is thought of to be effeminate and the "darker" the guy, means he is manly.



I have found this to be true in different races and nationalities as well.
Those of a lighter complexion are usually looked upon more favorably
than their darker complected brethren.

I would say the causes in many instances are colonialism and or the
vestiges of slavery.

Wherever I have travelled in the world, or even in the United States, I
have found this to be the case. It is equally prevalent in Asian, Latino,
and African based cultures.

[SkyTwo]

The more "fairer" a girl means she is high up on the heirarchy (and are thought of as "Regal" and or rich) as opposed to a girl with darker skin tones (which has always been thought "unattractive" and impoverish). In asian men it's the complete reverse. The more "fairer" a guy, the more he is thought of to be effeminate and the "darker" the guy, means he is manly.



I have found this to be true in different races and nationalities as well.
Those of a lighter complexion are usually looked upon more favorably
than their darker complected brethren.

I would say the causes in many instances are colonialism and or the
vestiges of slavery.

Wherever I have travelled in the world, or even in the United States, I
have found this to be the case. It is equally prevalent in Asian, Latino,
and African based cultures.

Not to be contrarian, but I would argue (and naturally the argument can't be proven definitively either way) that it goes to the much more basic issue of class. And while that was clearly one of the evils of the colonial era, divisions in social status based on skin tone date much earlier and across most every culture. For millennia, in any culture, escape from a life of grueling physical labor was true for 90% of the population-- male and female.

Not trying to start an argument, just reiterating my earlier post. And hoping to start some discussion.

[rick_932]

Here in the US skin tone isnt much of an issue or has it? For example: Does subtle "skin tones" within races have any significance? In African-americans..Are light skinned snobbish (elitism) of darker skinned ones and or vice versa?



this is very much an issue in the AA community. take the media for example, how many dark skinned AA females do you see on TV? you mostly see the lighter complexed AA females on tv shows, music videos, etc... these light skinned women (we call em red bones) are seen as more acceptable and are closer to the white standard of beauty in america. so they do draw alot of criticism and hate from darker skinned AAs.

The same can be said for AA men. in high school, we would call the lighter brothas "pretty boys". this label was pretty much attached to any red brotha because they usually attracted the females first.

[SkyTwo]

Here in the US skin tone isnt much of an issue or has it? For example: Does subtle "skin tones" within races have any significance? In African-americans..Are light skinned snobbish (elitism) of darker skinned ones and or vice versa?



this is very much an issue in the AA community. take the media for example, how many dark skinned AA females do you see on TV? you mostly see the lighter complexed AA females on tv shows, music videos, etc... these light skinned women (we call em red bones) are seen as more acceptable and are closer to the white standard of beauty in america. so they do draw alot of criticism and hate from darker skinned AAs.

The same can be said for AA men. in high school, we would call the lighter brothas "pretty boys". this label was pretty much attached to any red brotha because they usually attracted the females first.

So, by AA you don't mean Asian-Americans, Alcoholics Anonymous or batteries, but African-Americans. :)

[peggygee]

In African-americans..Are light skinned snobbish (elitism) of darker skinned ones and or vice versa?

You get that a lot depending on the region of the country. If a female is of lighter complexion, the girl can be seen as 'conceited'. Because most black women are of brown, or darker complexion.

Darker complexion black women are seen as 'inferior' . Hence, skin bleaching products sell to this demographic very well because of how (western) society paints the pictures as Darker complexion people (especially women) are inferior to those of higher complexion.

No offense and not to turn this into a racial debate. But, Caucasians are responsible for the whole ordeal in western society. I can't speak about the rest of the globe.

Check out this video I found on youtube here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17fEy0q6yqc).

EDIT: Be very thick skinned about this video. It can bring out some anger in you. :(

I wasn't able to view the Youtube segment, I think she was getting too
many hits at the moment. (She's had almost one million views - note
to self, Maggie I think you need to be on Youtube prosletyzing :roll: )

But from the comments, and the subject matter that we are discussing
I have a sense of the content.

Alongst those lines, I watch Univision, Telemundo (Latin networks), and
I watch films from Bollywood, as well as movies from Southeast Asia

It never ceases to amaze me how they have these actors and actresses,
that look so Euro-centric in all of that programming.

Rarely will you see a dark complected person.

I was watching the ALMA awards the other night on ABC, they were
honoring Latino stars, etc.

Let's just say it was very light in there.

:roll:

[rick_932]

Here in the US skin tone isnt much of an issue or has it? For example: Does subtle "skin tones" within races have any significance? In African-americans..Are light skinned snobbish (elitism) of darker skinned ones and or vice versa?



this is very much an issue in the AA community. take the media for example, how many dark skinned AA females do you see on TV? you mostly see the lighter complexed AA females on tv shows, music videos, etc... these light skinned women (we call em red bones) are seen as more acceptable and are closer to the white standard of beauty in america. so they do draw alot of criticism and hate from darker skinned AAs.

The same can be said for AA men. in high school, we would call the lighter brothas "pretty boys". this label was pretty much attached to any red brotha because they usually attracted the females first.

So, by AA you don't mean Asian-Americans, Alcoholics Anonymous or batteries, but African-Americans. :)

hehehe, i forgot this thread involved asian americans also :lol:

[peggygee]

And at the risk of pouring gasoline on an already inflammatory topic,
even in the pages of HA, I get a sense that the models with Eurocentric
features are more sought after, praised and valued than that of other
races.

Not necessarily because they are more attractive, but because of the
very points that we are bringing up here.

Further, I get the sense that many women of color are aware of this, and
that may be the reason why there is such a scarcity of women of color
on HA.

[rick_932]

And at the risk of pouring gasoline on an already inflammatory topic,
even in the pages of HA, I get a sense that the models with Eurocentric
features are more sought after, praised and valued than that of other
races.

Not necessarily because they are more attractive, but because of the
very points that we are bringing up here.

Further, I get the sense that many women of color are aware of this, and
that may be the reason why there is such a scarcity of women of color
on HA.

i agree. from my experience here, black transsexuals receive most of the negative comments out of any group. a couple years ago, there were more black transsexuals posting on this board than there are now

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

this is very much an issue in the AA community. take the media for example, how many dark skinned AA females do you see on TV? you mostly see the lighter complexed AA females on tv shows, music videos, etc... these light skinned women (we call em red bones) are seen as more acceptable and are closer to the white standard of beauty in america. so they do draw alot of criticism and hate from darker skinned AAs.

The same can be said for AA men. in high school, we would call the lighter brothas "pretty boys". this label was pretty much attached to any red brotha because they usually attracted the females first.

I agree. I think prejudice over skin tone within one's race is prevalent.

~Kisses.

HTG

[Nooksack]

I know it was mentioned that this wasn't about race but, invariably, it IS. It's not intentional, but over the years and through the centuries, the dominant cultures in Western civilization have been those of caucasians. Because they "colonized' much of the globe, everyone else has a bit of an inferiority complex and lighter is seen as more civilized while the darker you are, the more barbaric you must be. Of course this is taking things to extremes but here's an example:

Line up these people and assume they have the same body build:
-Fair-skinned red-headed white guy
-Asian guy
-Lighter Hispanic
-Darker Hispanic
-Light-skinned black guy
-Darker-skinned black guy

In what order would you honestly put them in order of intimidation? Heavy bets are that the asian and white guy get put at the top and the lighter Hispanic and black are placed higher (ie safer) than their darker counterparts.

Look back to slave days: light-skinned (high yellow) black folk got to work the house while the darker slaves were made ot work in the field. Same for hispanic slaves. That has carried largely over into today's societies where the lighter you are, the less threatening and more professional you seem to be (allthough it's all really bullshit and we know it).

[peggygee]

Ironically, they have this thread here (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=12735&highlight=passable+black).

Yeah, sadly I remember that thread.

You and Rangehova, put yourself in for
a coochie coupon for holding it down. :wink:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/COOCHIECOUPONrev.jpg

[blckhaze]

All i know is light skinned brothas are out.
WOOOHOOOO! :P

[mbf]

Not to be contrarian, but I would argue (and naturally the argument can't be proven definitively either way) that it goes to the much more basic issue of class. And while that was clearly one of the evils of the colonial era, divisions in social status based on skin tone date much earlier and across most every culture. For millennia, in any culture, escape from a life of grueling physical labor was true for 90% of the population-- male and female.

Not trying to start an argument, just reiterating my earlier post. And hoping to start some discussion.

dates back to ancient Egypt actually. in that culture the really dark skinned population - sudanese people - were actually those who built the pyramids.

same as with india. their caste- system dates back thousands of years. lighter skin - higher caste.

in ancient greek and rome btw pale skinned people - northern europena tribes - were beeing perceived similarly as amerikkka is looking at blacks - with a mixture of fear AND fascination. that was a time milk-skinned was barbaric.

(a sidenote: caucasionas r responsible for the transatlantic slavetrade most exclusively, but i always wonder nobody mentions the arabic involvement there. arabs were the original slave-hunters in africa, and sold a great deal over the atlantic as well as within the arabic world.)

an addendum: in the early 20th century social life in euroe changed dramatically. former farmers became factory-workers and a travel-industry began to involve. that was the time attributes to skin-color changed. tanned skin from now on ment u were able to travel to foreign places and could spend time lying around the beach or do outdoor-sports like tennis, whereas poor factory workers were trapped in htose big machine-halls.

things begin to slightly change over herein jollyole europe due to skin cancer and the quicker-ageing of tanned skin. yet a light tan is still the desired route to go. ( me personally i do archeological work as part of my job so i usually have a dark tan on my arms and legs, but i am pale white anywhere else, so me naked is liek watching a human-zebra lol)

[SkyTwo]

Not to be contrarian, but I would argue (and naturally the argument can't be proven definitively either way) that it goes to the much more basic issue of class. And while that was clearly one of the evils of the colonial era, divisions in social status based on skin tone date much earlier and across most every culture. For millennia, in any culture, escape from a life of grueling physical labor was true for 90% of the population-- male and female.

Not trying to start an argument, just reiterating my earlier post. And hoping to start some discussion.

dates back to ancient Egypt actually. in that culture the really dark skinned population - sudanese people - were actually those who built the pyramids.

same as with india. their caste- system dates back thousands of years. lighter skin - higher caste.

in ancient greek and rome btw pale skinned people - northern europena tribes - were beeing perceived similarly as amerikkka is looking at blacks - with a mixture of fear AND fascination. that was a time milk-skinned was barbaric.

(a sidenote: caucasionas r responsible for the transatlantic slavetrade most exclusively, but i always wonder nobody mentions the arabic involvement there. arabs were the original slave-hunters in africa, and sold a great deal over the atlantic as well as within the arabic world.)

an addendum: in the early 20th century social life in euroe changed dramatically. former farmers became factory-workers and a travel-industry began to involve. that was the time attributes to skin-color changed. tanned skin from now on ment u were able to travel to foreign places and could spend time lying around the beach or do outdoor-sports like tennis, whereas poor factory workers were trapped in htose big machine-halls.

things begin to slightly change over herein jollyole europe due to skin cancer and the quicker-ageing of tanned skin. yet a light tan is still the desired route to go. ( me personally i do archeological work as part of my job so i usually have a dark tan on my arms and legs, but i am pale white anywhere else, so me naked is liek watching a human-zebra lol)

Errr... wow. I wasn't trying to define truth-- as I stated earlier, just suggesting a cross-cultural and more generally 'human' suggestion for why there is a historic bias toward light skin.

And while the ancient Egyptians were indeed obsessed with conquering the Nubians (those whom they called the Kush), the most widely accepted scholarship is that the pyramids were built by Egyptian farmers, taking time out of the growing season to do a little imperialy dictated work. There's nothing racial about that, either.

I've spent a lot of time now arguing that this thread, as Hara requested, shouldn't be about race-- for the simple reason that I think we're all capable of the same inhumanity toward our fellow man. Colonialism is rightly held in contempt for the simple fact that it was contemptible. The driving force was one of religion (which hasn't been discussed here) and race. But the second that anyone begins to argue that "if my race/gender/religion were in charge, everything would be different," I get the willies.....

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

How Colorism Colors Our Daily Lives

by Kim

As young women of color, we might not have ever heard the word “colorism” before, but I would bet a million dollars that all of us have, at some point in our lives, observed or even experienced it. For example, we practice colorism when we refer to straight, long hair as “good”, and kinky hair as “nappy.” We refer to it when we call people “red bone” or “tar baby”. We reinforce it when we talk about “putting milk in your coffee”; that is, when an individual with a dark skin tone seeks a lighter skinned partner in the hopes that the children will also have a light complexion.

Colorism can be defined as the practice of placing value on skin tones, with a preference for lighter skin. This behavior pervades the mentality of many cultural societies to such a large degree that many of us have become desensitized to it, and even have come to accept it as part of our own way of thinking. African American writer Maya Angelou comments on this issue in her book “I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings”. The narrator says: "Wouldn't they be surprised when one day I woke out of my black ugly dream, and my real hair, which was long and blond, would take the place of the kinky mass Momma wouldn't let me straighten? My light-blue eyes would hypnotize them”

Why is it that our society has this disturbing “color stuck” obsession? One factor comes from the enslavement of Africans, who were subsequently shipped out of Africa into the US and the Caribbean. Sexual relations between white masters and black slaves resulted in mixed children who bore more Caucasian features than other slaves, like a lighter skin tone and straighter hair and noses. These individuals were favored over darker slaves because they could “pass” for white, and were thus given more opportunities for education and to climb the social ladder. Thus the message black men and women learned was that European features were more desirable and were synonymous with social status and beauty. We still share this message today.

However, colorism is more an issue within a racial or ethnic group, rather across racial groups. With colorism, people discriminate against their own people, by valuing lighter skin over dark skin. Look at any catalog, magazine or television commercial featuring an African American woman, and usually she will have a light skin tone, and straight hair, or that “nice” curly hair that is unlike the kinky texture most African Americans have. Watch those BET and MTV music videos. They feature such a high percentage of light-skinned video dancers that it’s almost a shock to see a woman with mocha or chocolate colored skin tones. Look at the Latino soap operas, where most of the star actors and actresses have European features and do not really represent the diverse range of features that the Latino population possesses. In many Asian cultures, people who have lighter skin are thought to be of a higher class, because they do not have to work in the sun, which would give them darker skin.

This practice of colorism has affected our mentality so much-to the point where in our societies, young girls cannot wait till they’re old enough to relax their hair chemically (to make it straighter). To the point where some individuals have “light skin” as part of their criteria for choosing a mate. To the point where skin bleaching creams have become a standard item in the cosmetic bags of many women.

Colorism. If you’ve never thought about it before as a problem, now is a good time to analyze how hurtful it can be to young women of color. It creates serious divisions among us, and can create a negative self-perception for those who aren’t born with the “right” skin tone and features. We all need to recognize colorism for what it is- a superficial, divisive, and destructive mindset.

SOURCE: http://www.mysistahs.org/features/colorism.htm

Additionally, here's a WIKI link about the subject matter we are discussing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorism

~Kisses.

HTG

[SkyTwo]

And here I thought I'd earned a response from the lady herself for all my serious thought. Dang. Maybe the next time I get serious in a thread instead of being the usual smartass I'll do better. :wink:

[qeuqheeg222]

interesting thread from top to bottom.i think this colorism/racism has a long history like someone mentioned earlier of how labor and poverty were connected to skin tone(dark)versus the rich sloth(pale)..egyptians to hindi's to anglos and aa's it berls down to a evolved mindset from this..nowadays we attach different names to this class,now race based bias..i'm half mexican,part polish,part american indian and i think because of the little injun blood i'm a little darker than many or most of my relatives from mexico..i remember one summer when i was all into trainin for a triathalon i came to visit me grandpa and the first thing he said when he saw me was"?quienes el indio?" refering to my tan but the feelin of the comment was really driven home when we watch univision and you see the tv talkshow hosts or hostess with the peroxide blond hair amidst a sea of dark headed indios de honduras,dominican republica,mexico.......

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

And here I thought I'd earned a response from the lady herself for all my serious thought. Dang. Maybe the next time I get serious in a thread instead of being the usual smartass I'll do better. :wink:

I did agree with your post didnt I? LOL Whatelse would you want to hear? ;)

I can only speak in behalf of my culture. In asia, the paler the skin = the higher the class. Asian women's "obsession" with white porcelain-like skin dates back a few centuries. White skin is a symbol of femininity, sophistication and innocence (think China Dolls lol). :P

~Kisses.

HTG



~Kisses.

HTG

[SkyTwo]

interesting thread from top to bottom.i think this colorism/racism has a long history like someone mentioned earlier of how labor and poverty were connected to skin tone(dark)versus the rich sloth(pale)..egyptians to hindi's to anglos and aa's it berls down to a evolved mindset from this..nowadays we attach different names to this class,now race based bias..i'm half mexican,part polish,part american indian and i think because of the little injun blood i'm a little darker than many or most of my relatives from mexico..i remember one summer when i was all into trainin for a triathalon i came to visit me grandpa and the first thing he said when he saw me was"?quienes el indio?" refering to my tan but the feelin of the comment was really driven home when we watch univision and you see the tv talkshow hosts or hostess with the peroxide blond hair amidst a sea of dark headed indios de honduras,dominican republica,mexico.......

Marxism be damned, it's still nice to hear another voice argue that 'colorism' is an equal opportunity problem. But perhaps in a 'star-belly sneech' kind of way that makes us feel better about ourselves no matter what our race. Humans are amazingly skilled at that.

[sucka4chix]

Not really offering any answers just wanting to add my feelings to the discussion:
When I was in high school, I always had a prototype woman. Her skin tone was golden which meant she was either a red-bone black girl, tanned white girl or Latina. That was the perfect skin tone for me, I don't know why. I have never dated anyone darker than me, and most of my girlfriends have been half black half something else. But I do find it interesting that when you start mixing races--- most often that's the tone you get. Maybe there's some natural significance to it. Also interesting to note that the very unpopular (on HA) Bible references a supreme being with skin of bronze. Is this all coincidence?

As far as the black community goes, red-bones were sought after years ago, and still are by outsiders (whites and the media). Girls like Beyonce are considered beautiful black women by whites (I was actually told by a white guy that if Black girls looked like that he would like them!!!). But within the community itself,light skin has played out. Originally it was hated because it meant the injection of white blood into your race, and I think this hatred has returned. It is the darker hue that is coveted today, especially for guys. In my circles it almost seems red-bones have been removed from the planet!!

I personally consider a white person with some color more progressive and liberal and normal.A pale white person I usually am more cautious around because they make me think of people from Nebraska or Kansas who may be racist or simply ignorant of black people because they don't come across them too much. I understand to get a "red neck" you must be in the sun, but it's the pale skin that makes you susceptible.

Skin tones among other races really don't affect any emotions from me. I guess I don't know enough about them!

[SkyTwo]

And here I thought I'd earned a response from the lady herself for all my serious thought. Dang. Maybe the next time I get serious in a thread instead of being the usual smartass I'll do better. :wink:

I did agree with your post didnt I? LOL Whatelse would you want to hear? ;)

I can only speak in behalf of my culture. In asia, the paler the skin = the higher the class. Asian women's "obsession" with white porcelain-like skin dates back a few centuries. White skin is a symbol of femininity, sophistication and innocence (think China Dolls lol). :P

~Kisses.

HTG



~Kisses.

HTG

At this point, of course, I have to divulge that I'm an Asian-American. A double-A, so to speak. And Hara-chan, thanks for being such a good sport. Consider this a big ol' virtual smoocheroony.

[BlackAdder]

Interesting..as far as personal preference goes ive gravitated towards either really pale or really dark..in between is okay but is also the "norm" which i percieve as boring.

[peggygee]

But the second that anyone begins to argue that "if my race/gender/religion were in charge, everything would be different," I get the willies.....

Mans inhumanity to man does not discriminate by virtue of race,
gender, or religion.

In each instance they are all equally capable of unfathomable
atrocities against their own.

[Luna555]

...

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

interesting thread from top to bottom.i think this colorism/racism has a long history like someone mentioned earlier of how labor and poverty were connected to skin tone(dark)versus the rich sloth(pale)..egyptians to hindi's to anglos and aa's it berls down to a evolved mindset from this..nowadays we attach different names to this class,now race based bias..i'm half mexican,part polish,part american indian and i think because of the little injun blood i'm a little darker than many or most of my relatives from mexico..i remember one summer when i was all into trainin for a triathalon i came to visit me grandpa and the first thing he said when he saw me was"?quienes el indio?" refering to my tan but the feelin of the comment was really driven home when we watch univision and you see the tv talkshow hosts or hostess with the peroxide blond hair amidst a sea of dark headed indios de honduras,dominican republica,mexico.......

Isnt "indio" a derogatory term geughee222? :?

~Kisses.

HTG

[NYTSJulie]

I think everyone wants what they cant have. Darker people want to be lighter and light people want to be darker. Also brunettes what to be blond, people with curly hair wish they had straight hair and people with straight hair wish for curly hair.

Naturally I am very pale with ivory skin, and very dark brown hair that is straight as a ruler. I curl my hair and always wished it was naturally curly. I bleach my hair and have been blond for years. I also tan cause I hate my very light skin. I also have freckles, which I always hated. Recently a black friend of mine said "why do you tan, you have such beautiful light skin and your freckles are so adorable and make me look extra feminine".

[Ecstatic]

same as with india. their caste- system dates back thousands of years. lighter skin - higher caste.
It's a little more complicated than that in India. The native population of India over 4,000 years ago was Dravidian, a sub-race generally considered to be Australoid, related most closely to the Veddoid of Sri Lanka and the aborigines of Australia. While there is a wide range of skin tone among these people, they tend to be dark (Gandhi first experienced racism and oppression in South Africa, where, because of his skin color, he was treated as a native African).

The Aryans pushed into India at that time, supplanting the decaying Harrapan and Mohenjo Daro. The Aryans originated in the steppes of central Russia and were Caucasian; Sanskrit is the oldest surviving Indo-European language (a "dead" language when Latin was in its infancy). (There is some debate today about this sequence of events; the "Indigenous Aryan" position is that the Aryans, descended from Iranians, occupied India over 1000 years earlier and created the Harappan civilization; other scholars hold that the Dravidians were the urban society and the Aryans barbarians who invaded much as the Huns and Visigoths did the Roman Empire over 2000 years later.)

Regardless of how it went down, the division between Aryan and Dravidian shows in skin tone and, much more importantly, language (Sanskrit and Hindi are Indo-European, while Tamil and Kannada are Dravidian). So in India, it appears that the color difference followed from social and linquistic differences, rather than the other way around.

[peggygee]

same as with india. their caste- system dates back thousands of years. lighter skin - higher caste.
It's a little more complicated than that in India. The native population of India over 4,000 years ago was Dravidian, a sub-race generally considered to be Australoid......

Thanks for that crash course, I always wondered about the lanquage,
complexion, and caste system.

I had some sense about the caste system, but I think I was sleeping in
class when they discussed the material you just profferred. :wink:

[flabbybody]

In European society a few hundred years ago, a big belly on a gentleman was considered status. Same thinking as fair skin versus dark, it meant you weren't involved in manual labor.

So basically, if you were a fat, pale, out-of-shape white guy.... you were cool.

[dan_drade]

I have heard about this in the last ten years or so. It's kind of funny because when I was younger, I had known nothing about this. I am half Asian as well. But the Asian side of my family has been in Hawaii since around the mid 1800's so they knew nothing about it either, at least not until the Asian invasion started here in California in the early eighties.

Now I see a lot of Asain women that are concerned about the color of their skin. I see a lot of women wearing what I call "Welders Masks" These are the little tinted shields that they all buy at the Asian stores. I find them really silly and I always get a good laugh to see someone wearing them. Also a lot of girls wearing white gloves and long sleeve shirts. Whats up wit dat when its 95 degrees outside.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Welder's mask? LOL That's sorta weird especially for a girl to be wearing out in public. :lol:
I'll admit I'm guilty of wearing long sleeves only because I dont want my arms color split in half and sport like a hideous farmer's tan! LOL

Bad Farmer's Tan:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Jeremy_beatertan.jpg

~Kisses.

HTG

[dan_drade]

Welder's mask? LOL That's sorta weird especially for a girl to be wearing out in public. :lol:
I'll admit I'm guilty of wearing long sleeves only because I dont want my arms color split in half and sport like a hideous farmer's tan! LOL

Bad Farmer's Tan:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Jeremy_beatertan.jpg

~Kisses.

HTG


LOL, I can understand you not wanting a farmers tan, but the welders mask is really over the top. I'm sure in Socal a lot of Asains were them. They are just a tinted sheild that covers their face.

It is numba one top sella here in Nocal.

LOL

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

LOL Oh like a sun visor then Dan? ;)

http://www.spfashions.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Sunveil%20-%20SUNVISOR.jpg

http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/Sun%20Visor_676.jpg

Atleast they're not wearing the rediculous rice farmer's hat: LOL

http://www.fun-shop.com/images/08hats/76119.jpg

~Kisses.

HTG

[dan_drade]

LOL Oh like a sun visor then Dan? ;)

http://www.spfashions.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Sunveil%20-%20SUNVISOR.jpg

http://www.sz-wholesale.com/uploadFiles/Sun%20Visor_676.jpg

~Kisses.

HTG

It looks like this except its tinted
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

[dan_drade]

OK, the pic did not post, so here it is again.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

OK, the pic did not post, so here it is again.

Haha :lol: That sure looks like one of those things cops would wear to protect themselves from tear gas at a street demonstration Dan! LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[dan_drade]

OK, the pic did not post, so here it is again.

Haha :lol: That sure looks like one of those things cops would wear to protect themselves from tear gas at a street demonstration Dan! LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

Yeah, its kinda like that. Although they have refined them over the last few years to look a little more feminine, but you get the picture now.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

That's cute Dan! Going back to the topic about colorism..
I like a guy to atleast have a "darker" skin tone than myself.
That just turns me ON! LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[sucka4chix]

That's cute Dan! Going back to the topic about colorism..
I like a guy to atleast have a "darker" skin tone than myself.
That just turns me ON! LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Now that you mention it, I love watching my cock slide into someone lighter than me---it's Hot!

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

That's cute Dan! Going back to the topic about colorism..
I like a guy to atleast have a "darker" skin tone than myself.
That just turns me ON! LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Now that you mention it, I love watching my cock slide into someone lighter than me---it's Hot!

LOL I agree! :P Especially when you're holding on a huge hand mirror while..Haha LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[trannybanger]

i just wanna say, light skin brothas are makin a comeback!

[Ecstatic]

Thanks for that crash course, I always wondered about the lanquage,
complexion, and caste system.

I had some sense about the caste system, but I think I was sleeping in
class when they discussed the material you just profferred. :wink:
Glad to oblige, Maggie. That was a real thumbnail sketch; it's a lot more complicated than that, of course, but that is the jist of it. Modern Indians are very keen to adopt the "indigenous Aryan" theory as the Harappan / Indus River Valley civilization that flourished between 3000 and 2000 BCE was the most advanced in the world in many ways at that time: they had indoor plumbing, writing, and the beginnings of what became Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism as a religion (the god Rudra, a form of Shiva, dates back to at least 3000 BCE, making Hinduism in its root form far older than Judaism). Also, they see the traditionally-held Aryan invasion theory as an imposition on their culture by the West, although at some point the Aryans had to have invaded the sub-continent, it's just a question of when. But if they did so prior to and then developed the Harappan civilization, that's a real feather in their collective cap.

Sanskrit is the oldest surviving form of the Indo-European root language (from which most European languages devolve), but it was also heavily influenced by the ancient Dravidian languages, giving it its unique characteristics (phonemes that don't exist in other Indo-European tongues for instance). Yet trace the roots: knowledge > gnosis > jnana (English > Greek > Sanskrit), and so with pedal (from the root /ped/ for foot, in Sanskrit we find paduka or sandal) and many other cognates.

The caste system: now that's a complicated history, with the priests (brahmin) at the top being originally Aryan (Vedic culture is the merger of the ancient Harappan culture with the Aryan; the ancient Indians had Rudra/Shiva but the Aryans brought in the sky god Indra, a correlate of Zeus/Jupiter/Odin), followed by the warrior, merchant, and worker class. But it's far more complex than it seems on the surface, and color is but one element and not universal.

[eagleman12]

I have run across some latinas that stay out the sun so there skin will not brown. Pretty much the same thing they would look like they were from a higher class of people or they would look more European. I am latino but I prefer dark skinned women, The darker the skin the more beautiful I think a woman looks. Something about dark smooth glowing skin is a turn on for me.
But that is just me!

[sucka4chix]

That's cute Dan! Going back to the topic about colorism..
I like a guy to atleast have a "darker" skin tone than myself.
That just turns me ON! LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Now that you mention it, I love watching my cock slide into someone lighter than me---it's Hot!

LOL I agree! :P Especially when you're holding on a huge hand mirror while..Haha LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Dayum! This girl had me do that!!! I thought she was the only freak!
Shoulda known. Hara's got it going on!!!

[CORVETTEDUDE]

HJT...My needs are simple, but extremely important to me. Your skin tone and your eyes give me a constant WOODIE!!! :jerkoff :rock2

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

HJT...My needs are simple, but extremely important to me. Your skin tone and your eyes give me a constant WOODIE!!! :jerkoff :rock2

LOL :lol: *Woodie's are HOT! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[beatmaker]

I would say in modern society, much of this is a byproduct of global white supremacy and the vestiges of colonialism. In Africa, bleaching cream is big business. Vibe Magazine did a piece several years ago on this disturbing trend in Ghana. Women were causing irreparable harm to their skin, trying to ascribe to a Eurocentic view of beauty, used to keep them in an inferior mindstate. This is one of the reasons, missionaries were sent into African countries first. It's easier to conquer a man, if he thinks his God is your color. The "White Jesus" thing really did a number on Africans, African-Americans and Latinos.

I've had my minor criticisms of Oprah in the past, but she is REALLY stepping up on these types of issues. She interviewed Kiri Davis, who wrote and directed "A Girl Like Me", as well as MTV VJ Suchin Pac. Suchin discussed the Western eyelid surgery, that is huge throughout Asia. She actually walked around with tape on her eyes, to create a crease. She didn't touch on the colorism in the Asian community, since she is fair-skined and probably never had to deal with that issue. She did admit, that there is a kind of veiled assumption in the Asian community, that Whiteness kind of represents success and beauty in their eyes. This is clear, when you see the absurd amount of Asian women in New York City dating white men. It's such a high ratio, there has to be something more in play, than just this personal preference drivel, people like to push in here. On another show recently, Oprah had a gentlemen named Malcolm Gladwell who wrote a book called "Blink" on her show. He mentioned a test called the "Implicit Association Test" (IAT), which can detect the deep-seated biases in your subconscious. The kind that will make a white women walk an extra few feet to get on an elevator in a crowded office building, than getting on the elevator alone with a black man with a suit right in front of her (know from personal experiences). These woman might be Democrats, even liberal with a diverse group of friends, yet will exhibit racist behavior based on the programming of their subconcious mind. That is why this "I don't see Black clients" thing on Eros, is a little deeper at times. Many of these providers that say this, while having black TS friends need to take this IAT test. They are in denial about their prejudices like most of America is. Even people of color made stereotypical assumptions against their own race and he explained this was due to Blacks and other minorities falling victim to the same media images as whites do. I think this is why Oprah has such an issue with today's rap music, as it presents a very dysfuntional image of Black America to people outside our communities, but most importantly reinforcing negative behavior throughout the internal group dynamic.

While I think colorism is a huge problem in the AA community, I think the Latino community is way worse. Partially, because there is such as large spectrum of complexions versus the AA community. There is truely a color caste in Latin America and I've known several darker Latinos, who had deep inferiority complexes because of their darker skin color. I always had this hypothesis, but one guy I worked with about 6 years ago really brought it home. This guy would make some of the most racist, but pathological statements about Black woman, almost like a few of the white guys on HA. It was so inbred in him, he didn't even know he was being offensive until I pointed it out. He would say he was angry with his mother for marrying his father, who was the dark-skinned. Funny thing, this guy wasn't that dark, he just looked like a brown-skinned Black man. However, he would say he wish he had "light skin" and "good hair". This is a dude talking, so you can imagine how jacked up some of the women are. So, the fact some Latin tranny doesn't want to date you, even for money is of no suprise to me. Their culture devalues those who are dark, unless they're a professional athlete or entertainer (i.e Sammy Sosa or Celia Cruz). The whitewashing on Telemundo, Univision and Galavision are just a microcosm of the larger communities. Women with bleached blond hair, color contact lens and bad nosejobs are prevelent on these station, while the black Latins are relegated to Jerry Springer-esque talk shows and courtroom shows. Anyway, most of the attractive Latin women at the P.R parade today, really weren't given Black men any rhythm. Unfortunately, these deluded brothas are clueless as to why. I know what time it is with that, so I go because of the tons of black women in attendance too. If a mami shows some interest than cool, but I don't go their with that objective. Unfortunately, some of the Black women that attend these events have that same neo-colonialized, slave mentality mentioned earlier and go their with the intention to land a lighter Latin men with straight hair, while rebuffing the advances of Black men (unless they are biracial or Latin looking like Shemar Moore). I actually remember riding the subway a few months ago coming from work and I was sitting across from black women, who had struck up a conversation with a Latin women and she actually said she prefers Latin men over Black men because they have "pretty hair and nice skin". How can this Latin women have any respect for you, when you just put yourself in such an inferiorized position. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will. It's enough to think like that, but to say it out loud on a crowded NYC subway is just insane. It's just mental slavery, simple and plain! You ain't on the plantation anymore, but you still think like you are. Anyway, the brothas that were getting play from the Latin mamis were those baby oiled, stripper WWE- looking dudes walking around with no shirt or dudes driving an expensive vehicle. Aside from that, the women that were giving play, were the very skinny or overweight ones, who really weren't getting any attention from the Latin brothers out there.

Colorism is a very complex issue, but it will always exist because people don't want to acknowledge the root causes. Sometimes, it's easier to go on believing a lie, than to challenge your core beliefs and how they came into existence. That type of cartharsis is just too painful and complex for some people, so they prefer to just live in the Matrix.

The link Unisex recommended to "A Girl Like Me" (highly suggested):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17fEy0q6yqc


Oprah show link on Malcolm Gladwell and the IAT test:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200706/20070606/slide_20070606_284_113.jhtml

[peggygee]

I would say in modern society, much of this is a byproduct of global white supremacy and the vestiges of colonialism. In Africa, bleaching cream is big business. Vibe Magazine did a piece several years ago on this disturbing trend in Ghana. Women were causing irreparable harm to their skin, trying to ascribe to a Eurocentic view of beauty, used to keep them in an inferior mindstate. This is one of the reasons, missionaries were sent into African countries first. It's easier to conquer a man, if he thinks his God is your color. The "White Jesus" thing really did a number on Africans, African-Americans and Latinos......


The link Unisex recommended to "A Girl Like Me" (highly suggested):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17fEy0q6yqc


Oprah show link on Malcolm Gladwell and the IAT test:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200706/20070606/slide_20070606_284_113.jhtml

Factual, and well written, I concur 100%.

Es verdad.

You get my vote.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/Voting_Woman.gif

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I would say in modern society, much of this is a byproduct of global white supremacy and the vestiges of colonialism. In Africa, bleaching cream is big business. Vibe Magazine did a piece several years ago on this disturbing trend in Ghana. Women were causing irreparable harm to their skin, trying to ascribe to a Eurocentic view of beauty, used to keep them in an inferior mindstate. This is one of the reasons, missionaries were sent into African countries first. It's easier to conquer a man, if he thinks his God is your color. The "White Jesus" thing really did a number on Africans, African-Americans and Latinos.

I've had my minor criticisms of Oprah in the past, but she is REALLY stepping up on these types of issues. She interviewed Kiri Davis, who wrote and directed "A Girl Like Me", as well as MTV VJ Suchin Pac. Suchin discussed the Western eyelid surgery, that is huge throughout Asia. She actually walked around with tape on her eyes, to create a crease. She didn't touch on the colorism in the Asian community, since she is fair-skined and probably never had to deal with that issue. She did admit, that there is a kind of veiled assumption in the Asian community, that Whiteness kind of represents success and beauty in their eyes. This is clear, when you see the absurd amount of Asian women in New York City dating white men. It's such a high ratio, there has to be something more in play, than just this personal preference drivel, people like to push in here. On another show recently, Oprah had a gentlemen named Malcolm Gladwell who wrote a book called "Blink" on her show. He mentioned a test called the "Implicit Association Test" (IAT), which can detect the deep-seated biases in your subconscious. The kind that will make a white women walk an extra few feet to get on an elevator in a crowded office building, than getting on the elevator alone with a black man with a suit right in front of her (know from personal experiences). These woman might be Democrats, even liberal with a diverse group of friends, yet will exhibit racist behavior based on the programming of their subconcious mind. That is why this "I don't see Black clients" thing on Eros, is a little deeper at times. Many of these providers that say this, while having black TS friends need to take this IAT test. They are in denial about their prejudices like most of America is. Even people of color made stereotypical assumptions against their own race and he explained this was due to Blacks and other minorities falling victim to the same media images as whites do. I think this is why Oprah has such an issue with today's rap music, as it presents a very dysfuntional image of Black America to people outside our communities, but most importantly reinforcing negative behavior throughout the internal group dynamic.

While I think colorism is a huge problem in the AA community, I think the Latino community is way worse. Partially, because there is such as large spectrum of complexions versus the AA community. There is truely a color caste in Latin America and I've known several darker Latinos, who had deep inferiority complexes because of their darker skin color. I always had this hypothesis, but one guy I worked with about 6 years ago really brought it home. This guy would make some of the most racist, but pathological statements about Black woman, almost like a few of the white guys on HA. It was so inbred in him, he didn't even know he was being offensive until I pointed it out. He would say he was angry with his mother for marrying his father, who was the dark-skinned. Funny thing, this guy wasn't that dark, he just looked like a brown-skinned Black man. However, he would say he wish he had "light skin" and "good hair". This is a dude talking, so you can imagine how jacked up some of the women are. So, the fact some Latin tranny doesn't want to date you, even for money is of no suprise to me. Their culture devalues those who are dark, unless they're a professional athlete or entertainer (i.e Sammy Sosa or Celia Cruz). The whitewashing on Telemundo, Univision and Galavision are just a microcosm of the larger communities. Women with bleached blond hair, color contact lens and bad nosejobs are prevelent on these station, while the black Latins are relegated to Jerry Springer-esque talk shows and courtroom shows. Anyway, most of the attractive Latin women at the P.R parade today, really weren't given Black men any rhythm. Unfortunately, these deluded brothas are clueless as to why. I know what time it is with that, so I go because of the tons of black women in attendance too. If a mami shows some interest than cool, but I don't go their with that objective. Unfortunately, some of the Black women that attend these events have that same neo-colonialized, slave mentality mentioned earlier and go their with the intention to land a lighter Latin men with straight hair, while rebuffing the advances of Black men (unless they are biracial or Latin looking like Shemar Moore). I actually remember riding the subway a few months ago coming from work and I was sitting across from black women, who had struck up a conversation with a Latin women and she actually said she prefers Latin men over Black men because they have "pretty hair and nice skin". How can this Latin women have any respect for you, when you just put yourself in such an inferiorized position. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will. It's enough to think like that, but to say it out loud on a crowded NYC subway is just insane. It's just mental slavery, simple and plain! You ain't on the plantation anymore, but you still think like you are. Anyway, the brothas that were getting play from the Latin mamis were those baby oiled, stripper WWE- looking dudes walking around with no shirt or dudes driving an expensive vehicle. Aside from that, the women that were giving play, were the very skinny or overweight ones, who really weren't getting any attention from the Latin brothers out there.

Colorism is a very complex issue, but it will always exist because people don't want to acknowledge the root causes. Sometimes, it's easier to go on believing a lie, than to challenge your core beliefs and how they came into existence. That type of cartharsis is just too painful and complex for some people, so they prefer to just live in the Matrix.

The link Unisex recommended to "A Girl Like Me" (highly suggested):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17fEy0q6yqc


Oprah show link on Malcolm Gladwell and the IAT test:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200706/20070606/slide_20070606_284_113.jhtml

Just read this and I've to say..Great post beatmaker! :P

~Kisses.

HTG