What makes a Transsexual?

[Vicki Richter]

What makes a transsexual a transsexual? What defines the point of time where one is promoted from a cross dresser or feminine gay boy to a TS?
I won't lie, there is a TG heirarchy that exists with post-ops being at the top of the food chain in my opinion. It all boils down to commitment. How commited are you to being what you feel inside?

There are many TS centric mindsets I have experienced among people. To these people I can clearly say, they legitimately have the mind of a TS. However, that isn't enough. It's a whole package in my opinion.

I don't think a TS is necessarily all defined by what is outside. There are many TS who look like the men they started out as. However, they are still going out into the world each and every day living their life the way they feel is right. Alternatively, I feel that some people who are TS do not think as women. They equate womanhood to simply prancing around exercising overt woman behaviors and mannerisms - not to appearance. They are acting. There are actually TS who goto "How to act like a woman" classes. How silly.

This transitioning TS who was going through FFS at Dr. Ousterhaut had just completed one of those schools and insisted on telling everyone recovering about how real women cross their legs, how they should stand, how they should get up... because she had just gone to a special school which taught her all that. Silly. You've got it or you don't and it shouldn't be an act.

[Vicki Richter]

I think you are or you aren't. I feel someone is a TS when they are at the point where it is very unlikely or even irreversabe to go back to their born gender.
That runs contrary to the definition of a transsexual as one who is born as one sex but identifies as the other, Vicki. Is it one's psychological nature or one's physical nature? We can see the physical, but not the psychological. You're right, this takes the topic in a new direction.

I think the medical definition applies to about half of TS. If someone walks up to you and says, "I am a duck. Quack quack" You will say, "wow you are whacked". This person needs a therapist. There are many TS who simply say, "I am a woman, treat me like one." However, they don't live, look, or act anything like a woman. How can I treat you like something you don't behave like? These people need a therapist.

I think there is a whole other definition that is defined by living a life that we are more comfortable living. I don't think I am a woman. In fact, I am very aware I am not. However, I choose to live my life this way because I am more comfortable and confident in myself as a human being. It is how I choose to live. My behaviors aren't an act or farce intended to fool or cause trickery. They are who and what I am and have become. There is no mental problem that I can associate with myself. Feeling more as female than male and utilizing everything medical science can offer to make my appearance match my self-perception or desire is not a mental problem.

It is a mental problem to wake up one day and say, "I am TS now" and expect society to treat you like a woman. These people give al TS a bad name both in society and the medical community. I mean who would live their life day to day shaving their face then coating it with cakey makeup while looking at their same male self in the mirror and be happy? That is a crazy person. It's like the guy on Silence of the Lambs.

Even young TS with no money find a way - be it through gay sex work or something else. It is a driving need you can't overcome.

[tonkatoy]

I think the problem is people on the outside trying to apply the labels. As with many things, only you know how you really feel. There are a lot of transsexual people that will never be able to successfully transition, if success is based solely on attaining a female appearance. There are people who lack the means or courage to transition for whatever reasons, but they still may feel female, and probably feel trapped. There are others who maintain an androgynous existence, i would not call them true transsexuals. And by androgynous I don;t mean pre op as opposed to post op, more like going out as a boy one day and a girl the next.

I heard a report on the NPR a few weeks ago, and gay and lesbian were on complaining that gay was losing its edge, that it was becoming too mainstream to be gay. One woman claimed that transsexualism was the new way to be outside society, or be on the edge. I thought her view was very closeminded, she made it sound as if transsexuals did what they did just to be counter culture. I think gay culture has a high degree of 'look at me' kind of needing to be scene but also wanting to be different, or set apart. I think most transsexuals, if able, would prefer to just transition and live stealth.

So I guess it goes back to mindset, adn why somebody is transitioning. Cross dressing and so forth seems more of a sexually thing, whereas being trans gendered is more a state of being.

[Jennifer_English]

I guess what defines a transsexual is different to each and every one of us..

To me I would say you have to have activley done something to change your life style towards your prefered gender to class yourself as one.

IMO dressing in prvt doesnt cut the mustard... When I first started out I had known all my life... I took the plunge BIG time...

I went full time with no hormones, no laser and wore a wig... yeah I know baaaaad.. but at least I was doing what I felt i had to. Two years I waited for CX to see me and all the while I was living full time with no other help than I could provide myself... I got beat up a LOT!!

Before I did this i may have said i THINK im TS but I think you have to actually try the shoe on before you can say it fits..

Otherwise anyone can say it.

[Oli]

I'm way out of my depth here, but I believe you've stated it when you said:

It is a driving need you can't overcome.
Once that has been embraced, you are, mentally, on your way. Jennifer said the same with different words.

To me I would say you have to have activley done something to change your life style towards your prefered gender to class yourself as one.
As for going to school to learn how to act, I'm not sure that is an entirely bad idea if your reasons are genuine. People are taught a gender role in their formative years that becomes so ingrained their actions are unconscious. A TG must unlearn one set and learn the other in order to be who they feel they are.

[Realgirls4me]

Far beyond the taking of hormones and surgery, it's their mindset and attitude first in my limited experience in this world. It's how that woman trapped inside that male body manifests itself in everyday life through her behaviors and interactions, regardless of what stage of transition she might be in. A confident attitude as to who they are is also in the picture, as doubt or apprehension isn't anywhere in the mix. A feminine aura seems to precede and accompany them wherever they go, and this just isn't the case for many transitioning. I know it when I see it, and it isn't, or doesn't come across as learned behavior. It's natural appearing iow. The physical aspect completes the picture, but it is icing on the cake. The mind comes first.

[suckseed]

I'll tell you guys wut...I've long suspected that the way transsexuals seem to be 'coming out of the woodwork' (heh) has often made me wonder how many are simply gay transvestites. To be clear, I'm not implying that any of the board's Hungangels fit this category. But I remember getting my hair cut by this gay guy years ago that was blathering on to my girlfriend about how he'd like to be a girl so he could wear panties . It was truly creepy.

I think it's impossible to categorize people with all the shades of gray between the official ones. But there's also an element of monkey see monkey do when it comes to mannerisms and habits. Hell, we're all influenced by what we see others do. The internet definitely has brought our idle thoughts to our conscious minds. Often I think my sexual likes are simply attempts to add some zing to my sex life. My current lover and I trade internet pics to each other to illustrate what we'd like to try next.

[Ecstatic]

I think the medical definition applies to about half of TS. If someone walks up to you and says, "I am a duck. Quack quack" You will say, "wow you are whacked". This person needs a therapist. There are many TS who simply say, "I am a woman, treat me like one." However, they don't live, look, or act anything like a woman. How can I treat you like something you don't behave like? These people need a therapist.

I think there is a whole other definition that is defined by living a life that we are more comfortable living. I don't think I am a woman. In fact, I am very aware I am not. However, I choose to live my life this way because I am more comfortable and confident in myself as a human being. It is how I choose to live. My behaviors aren't an act or farce intended to fool or cause trickery. They are who and what I am and have become. There is no mental problem that I can associate with myself. Feeling more as female than male and utilizing everything medical science can offer to make my appearance match my self-perception or desire is not a mental problem.

It is a mental problem to wake up one day and say, "I am TS now" and expect society to treat you like a woman. These people give al TS a bad name both in society and the medical community. I mean who would live their life day to day shaving their face then coating it with cakey makeup while looking at their same male self in the mirror and be happy? That is a crazy person. It's like the guy on Silence of the Lambs.

Even young TS with no money find a way - be it through gay sex work or something else. It is a driving need you can't overcome.
Thanks for the elaboration, Vicki. It's the behavorial aspect that seemed to be missing in your earlier statement in the other thread (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=16013). As you said,


This thread could take a turn. What do you feel constitutes a true TS woman? Is it only the mental state? I think I will start a thread.
Ahh, I see you did start this thread! Excellent. I think this is a very fundamental question in the context of this forum. Speaking fundamentally, I think that the underlying principle is that a transsexual is one who identifies as the sex opposite that which s/he was born (leaving aside the intrasexed for the sake of discussion). I agree that there are levels or types of transgenderism, but I don't see it as a progressive scale. For some--perhaps for a great many--it is, as a person gradually comes to understand his or her nature, possibly passing through a gay phase because they feel different and homosexuality is the only alternative they've been exposed to, then transitioning through crossdressing to living part-time as the other gender to undergoing hormonal and/or surgical changes to achieve full-time status, and finally going for SRS.

But I think many others are not on this progressive scale at all; sure, there's always a progression of sorts as one discovers and even invents oneself over time, but the "end goal" is not the same and shouldn't be held out as such. Many transsexuals are quite happy without opting for SRS; they aren't any less woman than one who has had SRS. Nor is a post-op transwoman any higher or superior to a non-op transwoman. To a pre-op, yes, as that presumes that the pre-op as yet feels incomplete, but this is not true for the non-op.

[peggygee]

I'm old school and somewhat rigid on this, if you don't fit the
Benjamin criteria and or APA guidelines, you are not a transsexual.

To the untrained and trained eye as well, it may be difficult to discern
the 'true' transsexual.

It can not ascertained merely by demeanor, manner of dress, etc.
Perhaps this will be helpful in making an accurate assessment:

Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/benjamin.jpg

Type One: Transvestite (Pseudo)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick
out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing
and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly.
May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or
part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual.
Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce
libido. Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with
male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)
Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as
possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath
male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed.
Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May
purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful
emotionally Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as
to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman;
sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-
erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children. Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not
admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing
gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal
male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

[peggygee]

We may want to clarify some terms, a transgendered person is not
neccessarily a transsexual;

What does transgender mean?

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender
identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression
differs from that usually associated with their birth sex. Many transgender
people live part-time or full-time as members of the other gender.

Broadly speaking, anyone whose identity, appearance, or behavior falls
outside of conventional gender norms can be described as transgender.
However, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-atypical
will identify as a transgender person.

What are some categories or types of transgender people?

Transsexuals are transgender people who live or wish to live full time as
members of the gender opposite to their birth sex. Biological females who
wish to live and be recognized as men are called female-to-male (FTM)
transsexuals or transsexual men. Biological males who wish to live and be
recognized as women are called male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals or
transsexual women.

Transsexuals usually seek medical interventions, such as hormones and
surgery, to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their
preferred gender. The process of transitioning from one gender to the
other is called sex reassignment or gender reassignment.

Cross-dressers or transvestites comprise the most numerous transgender
group. Cross-dressers wear the clothing of the other sex. They vary in
how completely they dress (from one article of clothing to fully cross-
dressing) as well as in their motives for doing so. Some cross-dress to
express cross-gender feelings or identities; others crossdress for fun, for
emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. The great majority of cross-
dressers are biological males, most of whom are sexually attracted to women.

Drag queens and drag kings are, respectively, biological males and
females who present part-time as members of the other sex primarily to
perform or entertain. Their performances may include singing, lip-
syncing, or dancing. Drag performers may or may not identify as
transgender. Many drag queens and kings identify as gay, lesbian, or
bisexual.

Other categories of transgender people include androgynous, bigendered,
and gender queer people. Exact definitions of these terms vary from
person to person, but often include a sense of blending or alternating
genders. Some people who use these terms to describe themselves see
traditional concepts of gender as restrictive.

Source: http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html#whatare

[tonkatoy]

My current lover and I trade internet pics to each other to illustrate what we'd like to try next.My current lover is my hand

[insert_namehere]

It's amazing to me that there doesn't seem to be a topic on earth that everyone isn't willing to toss their 2 cents in on.

I, for one, have never been able to get into the mind of someone else in order to have a really keen insight into why they may do what they do. Suffice it to say, not being a transsexual, feeling like I SHOULD become a transsexual or in any other way uncomfortable in my own skin, I'm in no position to state my opinion on what or what doesn't constitute a transsexual.

End of the day, the folks on here that ARE ts have the only viewpoints that really matter, so why not reserve this thread for THEIR input?

Just my two cents on the matter. (Irony, yes... It follows me night and day)

[Vicki Richter]

I did this several years a go Peggy:

http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

[Realgirls4me]

It's amazing to me that there doesn't seem to be a topic on earth that everyone isn't willing to toss their 2 cents in on.

I, for one, have never been able to get into the mind of someone else in order to have a really keen insight into why they may do what they do. Suffice it to say, not being a transsexual, feeling like I SHOULD become a transsexual or in any other way uncomfortable in my own skin, I'm in no position to state my opinion on what or what doesn't constitute a transsexual.

End of the day, the folks on here that ARE ts have the only viewpoints that really matter, so why not reserve this thread for THEIR input?

Just my two cents on the matter. (Irony, yes... It follows me night and day)


Uuuuh, it's a forum for one thing, and one need not be a chef to realize the souffle isn't happening today.


:roll:

[insert_namehere]

Uuuuh, it's a forum for one thing, and one need not be a chef to realize the souffle isn't happening today.


:roll:
It helps if one does know the difference between scrambled eggs and a souffle, though.

[peggygee]

But I think many others are not on this progressive scale at all; sure, there's always a progression of sorts as one discovers and even invents oneself over time, but the "end goal" is not the same and shouldn't be held out as such.

Many transsexuals are quite happy without opting for SRS; they aren't any less woman than one who has had SRS. Nor is a post-op transwoman any higher or superior to a non-op transwoman. To a pre-op, yes, as that presumes that the pre-op as yet feels incomplete, but this is not true for the non-op.

I tend to concur that a post op is not superior to
the pre op, who is not superior to the non op.

And while in the Type Six: or so called True Transsexual
(high intensity) SRS is indicated, sought after, and
obtained, there are indeed many individuals for whom
the reassignment surgery is not appropriate.

Bottom line, there are many that state they they are
transsexual women, but as we know merely having a
pussy and tits do not a woman make.

Nor does the act of having breast implants and other
cosmetic surgery make a women a transsexual, there
are additional clear and definite psychological criteria
that must be fulfilled.

[tsntx]

ooh im moderate intensity ;)

[Vicki Richter]

I'm old school and somewhat rigid on this, if you don't fit the
Benjamin criteria and or APA guidelines, you are not a transsexual.

To the untrained and trained eye as well, it may be difficult to discern
the 'true' transsexual.

It can not ascertained merely by demeanor, manner of dress, etc.
Perhaps this will be helpful in making an accurate assessment:

Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/benjamin.jpg

Type One: Transvestite (Pseudo)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick
out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing
and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly.
May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or
part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual.
Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce
libido. Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with
male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)
Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as
possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath
male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed.
Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May
purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful
emotionally Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as
to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman;
sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-
erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children. Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not
admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing
gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal
male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

He was just a man and not a transsexual. I don't really buy into psychotherapy. I don't fit into any of those criteria I don't think and I don't know that many pre-ops that I defined as shemale do either.

Why? Well first, a "shemale" can live as a woman with a penis for 10-20 years in some cases. However, I would say most "shemales" can afford to go post-op many times over. Allanah, Gia, Danielle, myself, Joanna Jet, Vo, Jennifer Paris, Vaniity, Holly Sweet... all these girls could have gone post op at any time because we have all had enough money to do so many times in our lives. If we truly were experiencing revulsion for the penis it would have been gone. Period.

The closest description is the Transsexual (nonsurgical) but I don't see any of us waivering on our convictions between TV and TS.

My point I suppose is that there is a new breed of transsexuals who can live with a penis for years if not indefinitely, but still 100% identifies as female.

Again, I don't even think transsexualism is a mental sickness in many cases. It is a choice.

[peggygee]

He was just a man and not a transsexual. I don't really buy into psychotherapy. I don't fit into any of those criteria I don't think and I don't know that many pre-ops that I defined as shemale do either.

Why? Well first, a "shemale" can live as a woman with a penis for 10-20 years in some cases. However, I would say most "shemales" can afford to go post-op many times over. Allanah, Gia, Danielle, myself, Joanna Jet, Vo, Jennifer Paris, Vaniity, Holly Sweet... all these girls could have gone post op at any time because we have all had enough money to do so many times in our lives. If we truly were experiencing revulsion for the penis it would have been gone. Period.

The closest description is the Transsexual (nonsurgical) but I don't see any of us waivering on our convictions between TV and TS.

My point I suppose is that there is a new breed of transsexuals who can live with a penis for years if not indefinitely, but still 100% identifies as female.

Again, I don't even think transsexualism is a mental sickness in many cases. It is a choice.

Here's where it gets problematic; With people self diagnosing and creating
their own terms for their situation.

You of course are aware of how manytimes I have gone on record about
the 'shemale' term. It is a term created by the porn idustry for marketing
purposes, and I'm not sure how many girls would identify with your
definition here;

Shemale
I most closely identify with shemale. While many will argue that shemale is the porn industries definition of a transexual, I have found that this is not the case. A shemale is someone who typically lives as a female, but has a penis and, whether she uses it or not, she no intention of removing it. She likes to cum. More than likely, this person has taken hormones, removed body and facial hair, and/or has had breast implants. Also, many shemales have their own natural long hair. A shemale identifies as a woman and typically is attracted to men and only men. I'm one of the exceptions here as I am bi-sexual, but I prefer men. While there are beautiful girls in all of the categories mentioned, I tend to believe that the most beautiful girls as a whole are shemales. By the way, I have many friends who fit into this category so don't argue with me that I am making it up.

Thus I would have to cast my vote with the Benjamin Society and The
American Psychiatric Society, which are world wide recognized sources
and standards on the matter.

[peggygee]

He was just a man and not a transsexual. I don't really buy into psychotherapy. I don't fit into any of those criteria I don't think and I don't know that many pre-ops that I defined as shemale do either.

Why? Well first, a "shemale" can live as a woman with a penis for 10-20 years in some cases. However, I would say most "shemales" can afford to go post-op many times over. Allanah, Gia, Danielle, myself, Joanna Jet, Vo, Jennifer Paris, Vaniity, Holly Sweet... all these girls could have gone post op at any time because we have all had enough money to do so many times in our lives. If we truly were experiencing revulsion for the penis it would have been gone. Period.

The closest description is the Transsexual (nonsurgical) but I don't see any of us waivering on our convictions between TV and TS.

My point I suppose is that there is a new breed of transsexuals who can live with a penis for years if not indefinitely, but still 100% identifies as female.

Again, I don't even think transsexualism is a mental sickness in many cases. It is a choice.

I get the sense that Type Five is more appropriate in the cases that you
have described with many of the women that you have mentioned
stating that they would opt for SRS at some point. If not now, at some
point in the forseeable future

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained

[peggygee]

My point I suppose is that there is a new breed of transsexuals who can live with a penis for years if not indefinitely, but still 100% identifies as female.



And while there may be an evolving definition of transsexual, currently as
it is defined by the APA and the Benjamin Society these would be the
criteria in determining if someone were a transsexual.

[Ecstatic]

Why? Well first, a "shemale" can live as a woman with a penis for 10-20 years in some cases. However, I would say most "shemales" can afford to go post-op many times over. Allanah, Gia, Danielle, myself, Joanna Jet, Vo, Jennifer Paris, Vaniity, Holly Sweet... all these girls could have gone post op at any time because we have all had enough money to do so many times in our lives. If we truly were experiencing revulsion for the penis it would have been gone. Period.
And many in such a position call themselves non-op: but will this remain so? One TS I know who is in her 50s (and is a beautiful, voluptuous woman fwiw) tells me she is non-op and has no intention of SRS; given her age, I believe her. When an escort in her 20s or early 30s says the same thing, I wonder if it's only marketing, since they know what brings in the $$, but will change their minds when they're in their 40s or 50s. Regardless of this distinction, it does seem clear that such women (even if they would have preferred to have been born with a vagina) do not truly feel revulsion for their penis or they would have gone for SRS when they could afford it.


The closest description is the Transsexual (nonsurgical) but I don't see any of us waivering on our convictions between TV and TS.
I think Benjamin's definitions are a very well thought out starting point, and in many ways hold true, but I have to question him here: I suspect he's projecting "wavering on convictions" onto those transwomen who are quite comfortable--at least at this point in their lives--with their status and are not at all unsure of themselves. Perhaps wavering on whether or when to have SRS, but not on whether to be a TV or a TS--that ship long since sailed (and I tend to think that it set sail at birth, or earlier).


My point I suppose is that there is a new breed of transsexuals who can live with a penis for years if not indefinitely, but still 100% identifies as female.

Again, I don't even think transsexualism is a mental sickness in many cases. It is a choice.
I don't know if it's a new breed, I think rather it's a new understanding of a longstanding breed. IOW, I think Benjamin missed at least one definition of transsexual, probably because he was not exposed to, or perhaps simply couldn't wrap his head around, the "shemale" as you call the "breed," Vicki. Iirc, didn't Benjamin establish his definitions upwards of 50 years ago? In fact, I seem to recall that he did so in direct response to Christine Jorgensen's appearance on the scene in 1952. So I give him enormous credit and think a lot of what he states is still valid, but it's in need of updating.


Here's where it gets problematic; With people self diagnosing and creating
their own terms for their situation.

You of course are aware of how manytimes I have gone on record about
the 'shemale' term. It is a term created by the porn idustry for marketing
purposes, and I'm not sure how many girls would identify with your
definition here;

Shemale
I most closely identify with shemale. While many will argue that shemale is the porn industries definition of a transexual, I have found that this is not the case. A shemale is someone who typically lives as a female, but has a penis and, whether she uses it or not, she no intention of removing it. She likes to cum. More than likely, this person has taken hormones, removed body and facial hair, and/or has had breast implants. Also, many shemales have their own natural long hair. A shemale identifies as a woman and typically is attracted to men and only men. I'm one of the exceptions here as I am bi-sexual, but I prefer men. While there are beautiful girls in all of the categories mentioned, I tend to believe that the most beautiful girls as a whole are shemales. By the way, I have many friends who fit into this category so don't argue with me that I am making it up.

Thus I would have to cast my vote with the Benjamin Society and The
American Psychiatric Society, which are world wide recognized sources
and standards on the matter.
Ah, but question authority! Hee, had to say that. Talking about self-diagnosis and auto-definition, I've always liked the term that one non-op TS coined for the type that Vicki is describing: phallic female. No wavering of TV/TS, possible wavering between whether and when to opt for SRS but no deeply innate revulsion towards the penis, desiring to live 24/7 as a woman and to use whatever means (surgery, hormonal treatments, hair removal, etc.) to attain desired female appearance, etc.

[Vicki Richter]

I know where the shemale term comes from and how it originated Peggy. However, you are missing the point. My point is that none of the girls I mentioned fit cleanly into the The American Psychiatric Society's definitions of transsexual. These girls are living happily with penises. Some of these girls don't have any intention on getting SRS. That doesn't make them pre-op TS - by definition - and certain not transvestites.

I think the Psychiatric Society is perhaps correct a certain percentage of the time, but I think they are incorrect that it always falls into a mental disorder. I am not sick or mentally ill. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and thus by their definition all transsexuals have mental illness.

To say, I believe them because they are the experts is just very sheep- like in my opinion. What makes someone an expert on Transsexuals?

Explain where girls who can afford SRS but don't do it fit into your model Peggy. Are we all full time transvestites? Ridiculous.

[Ecstatic]

Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity.
This one criterion seems to belie many of the type we're discussing, who have extremely high libidos and are anything but passively homosexual. Many have extremely high sex drives.

[peggygee]

I know where the shemale term comes from and how it originated Peggy. However, you are missing the point. My point is that none of the girls I mentioned fit cleanly into the The American Psychiatric Society's definitions of transsexual. These girls are living happily with penises. Some of these girls don't have any intention on getting SRS. That doesn't make them pre-op TS - by definition - and certain not transvestites.

I think the Psychiatric Society is perhaps correct a certain percentage of the time, but I think they are incorrect that it always falls into a mental disorder. I am not sick or mentally ill. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and thus by their definition all transsexuals have mental illness.

To say, I believe them because they are the experts is just very sheep- like in my opinion. What makes someone an expert on Transsexuals?

Explain where girls who can afford SRS but don't do it fit into your model Peggy. Are we all full time transvestites? Ridiculous.

The Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale is a continuim,
a scale. Individuals may not fit nearly and squarely into each definition.

The Benjamin scale is different but realated to the APA definitions.

Again, i tend to feel that you and the women you have mentioned would
more accurately fit into the Type Five designation. Type Five: True
Transsexual (moderate intensity)


I get the sense that Type Five is more appropriate in the cases that you
have described with many of the women that you have mentioned,
yourself included, stating that they would opt for SRS at some point. If
not now, at some point in the forseeable future.

I further predicate this on your statements that you reject psychotherapy,
which is indicated herein, you have stated a desire for SRS at some point,
lives and works as woman if possible, insufficient relief from dressing,
could rule out being diagnosed as a transvestite.

However in answeing your original question;

What makes a transsexual a transsexual?

What defines the point of time where one is promoted from a cross
dresser or feminine gay boy to a TS?

These are the criteria. You may disagree with the answers,but these
are the accepted criteria throughout the medical and psychological
community.

Does it fully apply to you, does it descibe you accurately, I am unable to
say. However these criteria have been based upon decades of research
with thousands of transwomen. And maybe you're right the term
transsexual isn't accurate for you.

To determine what is most appropriate would require sitting and talking
with you at some length.

However your self diagnosed label of 'shemale' is neither a politically
correct, nor psychologically or medically valid designation.



Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained

[LG]

ooh im moderate intensity ;)
:lol:

Well at least you're not a "total psycho-sexual" whatever that means.


To Vicki:
I don't really know the answer to this one any better than you since you have lived through it an many of us have not. But your question "What makes a transexual" which I felt was asking what one would qualify as a transsexual is so open that people have been talking about the physiological causes of transsexuality which have already been covered here:
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=20346

It's pretty clear that you want to look at what people consider a transsexual because of an argument which you (and many others, it must be said) had with one particular member here who you, clearly do not consider a transsexual.

I think you already had the answer you were looking for before you asked your question right there in your glossary (pretty much the definitions that Peggy gave you as well).
http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

All I can add is that I feel a transsexual is a girl who has begun to live full time as a woman, who is not doing it for the sexual thrill but because she feels that she should always should have been female, and who has begun taking measures to become a woman. These measures may or may not include SRS, but they will include hormones (in almost all cases, except if the girl does not need them), oestrogen pills etc (which sadly can fuck up your body pretty bad), shaving and makeup (obviously) and, where necessary operations. But there are girls who cannot afford all of these things and want to, so I guess transsexuality is about how you feel, not how you look.

Then again, we guys can only make conclusions based on what we here from the girls. We do not know how you feel inside, really. We never will. We empathise and sympathise and respect you, and we might even "get" you, but we will never fully comprehend how you feel.

So you Vicki are best equipped to answer your own question as much as anyone on these forums, I suppose.

[peggygee]

ooh im moderate intensity ;)
:lol:

Well at least you're not a "total psycho-sexual" whatever that means.



I think you already had the answer you were looking for before you asked your question right there in your glossary (pretty much the definitions that Peggy gave you as well).
http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

.

This is not a valid or universally recognized definition.

http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

Transexual/Transsexual
I used to feel that I was transexual because I was lead to believe by other TG's that unless I planned to have a sex change, I was inferior. A transexual is different from a shemale only in terms of a goal to have SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery). As with shemales, transexuals identify as women, they more than likely live as women as well.

In my experience many transexuals are less concerned about being beautiful than they are living the life that they desire and as the correct gender. However, again, there are MANY beautiful transexuals (pre-op and post-op). They are among you and you might not even know it!!! Transexuals almost exclusively date men, but there are quite a few known incidents of lesbian transexuals; I have met plenty of them. It definitely happens.


As regards;

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.

Pyscho-sexual inversion is a term coined by Havelock Ellis to refer to
a sexual attraction to your same biological gender.

[LG]

ooh im moderate intensity ;)
:lol:

Well at least you're not a "total psycho-sexual" whatever that means.



I think you already had the answer you were looking for before you asked your question right there in your glossary (pretty much the definitions that Peggy gave you as well).
http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

.

This is not a valid or universally recognized definition.

http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

Transexual/Transsexual
I used to feel that I was transexual because I was lead to believe by other TG's that unless I planned to have a sex change, I was inferior. A transexual is different from a shemale only in terms of a goal to have SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery). As with shemales, transexuals identify as women, they more than likely live as women as well.

In my experience many transexuals are less concerned about being beautiful than they are living the life that they desire and as the correct gender. However, again, there are MANY beautiful transexuals (pre-op and post-op). They are among you and you might not even know it!!! Transexuals almost exclusively date men, but there are quite a few known incidents of lesbian transexuals; I have met plenty of them. It definitely happens.


As regards;

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.

Pyscho-sexual inversion is a term coined by Havelock Ellis to refer to
a sexual attraction to your same biological gender.

I know. It's just that Jen's comment made me laugh a little.

Also, I accept Vicki's is not a recognized definition. I'm just wondering why- since she already had an answer (albeit unrecognized)- did she bother asking the question in the first place.

But honestly, do we need to assign these boundaries? Boundaries only help in keeping people out. I say let people be who they want to be.

[peggygee]

Again, I don't even think transsexualism is a mental sickness in many cases. It is a choice.

On this there are many that agree with you, in fact there is
a reform movement afoot.

Gender Identity Disorder: What To Do?
Can we eliminate GID without decreasing TS health care access?

The debate in the transgender community over whether or not Gender Identity Disorder (GID) should be de-pathologized has raged for some time. However, recent activity from within the larger queer community adds a new dimension to the debate, and even threatens to overwhelm those transgenders who favor continuation of GID as a bona fide psychiatric diagnosis. For the sake of furthering reasonable discourse, and in hopes of promoting a solution that disadvantages none of us, I will try to present clearly here some of the considerations, and one possible solution.

The most vocal supporters of continuing GID as a recognized pathological condition seem to be transsexuals who seek insurance payment for their SRS expense. Insurance companies generally require requests for any medical expense reimbursement to include the DSM-coded diagnosis for which treatment was provided. Those who reimburse for SRS specifically require this DSM-compliant diagnosis of GID. The removal of GID from the DSM threatens these transexuals with loss of insurance repayment for their surgery expense. Those TS folk I've spoken with who advocate for continuation of GID believe that insurance coverage is the only way to cover the cost of their surgery.

There's a claim that GID may be useful for averting employment discrimination, but I haven't seen a successful case of it's application in this way. It may, I suppose, benefit the crossdresser who seeks to end his distress over the practice through psychiatric help. I'll ignore those who find ways to use it to their financial advantage, like service providers who try to "cure" people of gender non-conformance.

On the other side, some CDs, TSs and TGs would like to see GID eliminated as a mental illness, in order to further reduce the stigmatization of transgender folk. This is the logical continuation of the movement towards greater individual freedom of expression which has previously de-pathologized homosexuality and transvestism. Many activists believe that this is a necessary step towards acquisition of full rights and respect for transgender folk.

The ongoing debate on this issue has recently taken a new tack, as gay and lesbian activists joined the call for an end to GID because of its use as a basis for incarceration and abuse of gender-variant, "potentially homosexual" youth. The book Gender Shock by Phyllis Burke is probably the leading vehicle for this interest. It successfully dramatizes the plight of gender-variant youth, providing a disturbing collection of case histories of boys and girls mistreated in the name of normalcy. Many of them are incarcerated in mental institutions and "treated" with what are clearly abusive regimens, ranging from gross psychological manipulation to routine application of drugs and electroshock -- often without supporting psychotherapy or counseling. Ms. Burke also relates interviews with contemporary practitioners of such "therapies" who continue to this day to prescribe abusive and ineffective treatment for transgenderism most often, apparently, in futile effort to ward of future homosexuality. The call by Gender Shock for an end to GID diagnoses is compelling. To this transgender reader, the book is extremely disturbing, and highlights the needed reform of both our psychiatric services and our children's upbringing and very rights. It remains to be seen just how great will be the reach of this work, but it will surely advance the cause of those who argue for the abolition of GID.

Most transgender folk I've spoken with agree that the greatest damage is done to us when we are young, at the mercy of parents, teachers, and peers. Without that abuse and repression, we would surely reach our middle years in much better shape than we do currently, and be much less in need of reparative services. Indeed, I suspect that the demand for SRS might decrease if genitals ceased to be a reason for social discrimination, but that is pure speculation on my part.

There is no doubt that the acceptance and even encouragement of young people's gender variation would yield much happier transgender (and non-TG) adults. An obvious component of that change in attitude is a change in the assignment of pathology in cases of gender transgression. Clearly, it is the parents whose own guilt and fear for their gender appropriateness causes them to ignore the hurt they cause their children in blaming them for the pathology. It is their insecurity as parents and their mistaken beliefs which cause them to hurt their children in the name of "normalcy" and "good parenting". Likewise, it is the doctor's homo- and gender-phobia that makes them accomplices in the evil acts performed in the "child's best interests".

As more transgender people become visible, we are presented with more examples of transgender people whose lives are not ruined by their transgenderism. We are accumulating evidence that transgenderism itself is not a problem. It is becoming increasingly clear that the problem is other people's treatment of transgender folk. In response to this clarity, we need to relocate the pathology from the gender-transgressive individual to the person upset by that transgression. To fail to do so would be to continue the insane practice of blaming the victim for failing to satisfy the bully's demands.

At the same time, what about the person young or old who will clearly benefit from surgical intervention, but who cannot by themselves muster the resources needed to accomplish the feat? Currently, surgery on intersexed young people to make them "more normal" is a mostly unquestioned insurance reimbursement. While this practice deserves, like GID "therapy", to be exposed for the butchery it most often is, it shows the willingness of insurers to pay for gender-corrective measures. Clearly, insurance companies are willing to pay for surgery which is beneficial to a person's welfare, even when the problem to be corrected is not life-threatening. At the same time, they draw the line at cosmetic surgery: No matter how ugly you are, they will not pay for a nose job or face lift performed for strictly cosmetic reasons. Here, then, we have found an inconsistency in policy. Because a nose job or face lift or liposuction or whatever can in some cases demonstrably improve the quality of one's life. This is the same goal as that of SRS and intersexual surgery. Why is intersexual surgery reimbursed when cosmetic surgery is not? Because it's been medically established as a bona fide need, while the need for a nose job has not been. Part of that established need occurs because intersexuality is mysterious and involves unmentionables, while a nose job is as plain as what's between your eyes. The mystery and fear allow the doctors greater latitude in diagnosing a disorder and performing a procedure for which they will get paid.

SRS, on the other hand, got a bad name a few years back, thanks mostly to some doctors at Johns Hopkins. They conducted a study that showed that TSs were no happier after surgery than before. Of course, they were just as closeted - by the advice of their doctors - as before. As we are now learning, out is generally (if not always) happier than not, so it's no surprise that closeted post-ops (at increased personal risk/paranoia) weren't a lot happier than pre-ops. But the researchers conducting the study overlooked that detail (and others, no doubt). The insurance companies followed their lead, and SRS has become mostly regarded as "elective", "experimental" and "of questionable benefit" and thus non-reimbursable. However, the new transgender activism has reversed the direction of the pendulum on this one.

So the current situation is, insurance companies won't pay for cosmetic surgery, but they will pay for quality of life intervention for a diagnosed condition, such as surgery on intersexed genitals. If we want them to pay for SRS, we need to give them a diagnosis.

In fact, transexuality is not a gender disorder, it's a physiological sexual disorder. It's a need for a physical intervention, a surgery. To insist on the retention of GID as a means of obtaining coverage of SRS is like insisting that my neighbor not cut down his apple tree even though the apples are killing his dog which is allergic to them, because some of the apples fall in my yard and I enjoy them. Instead, if I want apples, I should grow a tree of my own.

In order to provide insurance coverage of SRS for transsexuals, it would seem reasonable for us to create a DSM diagnosis of "transexuality". It could support the various surgeries that transexuals want or need. This would allow the elimination of GID without hurting those transsexuals who need our help. A specific diagnosis of transexuality could provide a basis for specific body-altering procedures such as mastectomy and phalloplasty and vaginoplasty and orchiectomy and such.

Is the elimination of GID and establishment of diagnosable transexuality achievable? If we seek out and work with sympathetic medical authorities, if we go about it reasonably and with open minds, if we do our share of the legwork, if we persist until we succeed� it becomes not just possible, but inevitable.

[peggygee]

ooh im moderate intensity ;)
:lol:

Well at least you're not a "total psycho-sexual" whatever that means.



I think you already had the answer you were looking for before you asked your question right there in your glossary (pretty much the definitions that Peggy gave you as well).
http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

.

This is not a valid or universally recognized definition.

http://www.vickirichter.com/glossary.htm

Transexual/Transsexual
I used to feel that I was transexual because I was lead to believe by other TG's that unless I planned to have a sex change, I was inferior. A transexual is different from a shemale only in terms of a goal to have SRS (Sexual Reassignment Surgery). As with shemales, transexuals identify as women, they more than likely live as women as well.

In my experience many transexuals are less concerned about being beautiful than they are living the life that they desire and as the correct gender. However, again, there are MANY beautiful transexuals (pre-op and post-op). They are among you and you might not even know it!!! Transexuals almost exclusively date men, but there are quite a few known incidents of lesbian transexuals; I have met plenty of them. It definitely happens.


As regards;

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.

Pyscho-sexual inversion is a term coined by Havelock Ellis to refer to
a sexual attraction to your same biological gender.

I know. It's just that Jen's comment made me laugh a little.

Also, I accept Vicki's is not a recognized definition. I'm just wondering why- since she already had an answer (albeit unrecognized)- did she bother asking the question in the first place.

But honestly, do we need to assign these boundaries? Boundaries only help in keeping people out. I say let people be who they want to be.

If a person is making the effort towards transitioning, I wholeheartedly,
and with open arms,welcome them as a Sister. However there are many
of us who have worked very hard to be the women we are, and I am
somewhat adverse to recognizing those that have not paid their dues.

Fortunately I am not the gate-keeper, the Sargaent at arms or the arbiter,
of who is or isn't a transwoman. For that we defer to the Benjamin scale,
and the APA definitions.

In the situation that you have alluded to, that generated this thread I am
adopting a wait and see approach, thus I reserve judgement on that
matter.

But bottom line if a person doesn't put in the work, meet the outlined
criteria they would not fall under the designation of transsexual.

Walk like a duck, quack like a duck, you're a duck.

Hell you might even be a swan. :wink:

[LG]

If a person is making the effort towards transitioning, I wholeheartedly,
and with open arms,welcome them as a Sister. However there are many
of us who have worked very hard to be the women we are, and I am
somewhat adverse to recognizing those that have not paid their dues.

I accept that. Although not everyone can afford those dues.

An intelligent reply as always though, peggy, thank you. And, like I said, you girls can answer these questions better than any of us.

We're still learning. We want to know more, but we will never fully, truly grasp it all.

[peggygee]

If a person is making the effort towards transitioning, I wholeheartedly,
and with open arms,welcome them as a Sister. However there are many
of us who have worked very hard to be the women we are, and I am
somewhat adverse to recognizing those that have not paid their dues.

I accept that. Although not everyone can afford those dues.

An intelligent reply as always though, peggy, thank you. And, like I said, you girls can answer these questions better than any of us.

We're still learning. We want to know more, but we will never fully, truly grasp it all.

I don't necessarily mean monetary dues. Additionally I neither ethically
condone or condemn a girl if she choses to escort in the furtherance of
her transition.

It is truly her decision and I would hope that she would think long and
hard on all of the ramifications, both in the short run and long run.
Decisions that you make today, can last a lifetime.

There are many ways to make money, just don't let the money make you.

A person that is truly committed to making their transition occur, can
make it happen, albeit not always at the rate that they desire.

In this 'thing of ours' few are chosen, and even fewer make it to their
goal.

And everyone isn't cut out for it. :shrug

[suckseed]

...

[NYTSJulie]

Great thread Vicki,

Well I think if someone is "true" a transsexual they have or will do things to alter their body. They will also go to ANY length to correct what they feel is wrong with their body.

This is why there are so many TS's working in the sex industry. Most are looking to get the money to afford a proper transition, not because they like sex lol.

I think with a "true" transsexual passing is VERY important to them. To be treated like a woman and live in accordance with the gender role of a female also.

Have to run (going to have my sister roll-in-pin my freshly pumped behind, lol) will write more later..........Kisses....Julie

[peggygee]

Why? Well first, a "shemale" can live as a woman with a penis for 10-20 years in some cases. However, I would say most "shemales" can afford to go post-op many times over. Allanah, Gia, Danielle, myself, Joanna Jet, Vo, Jennifer Paris, Vaniity, Holly Sweet... all these girls could have gone post op at any time because we have all had enough money to do so many times in our lives. If we truly were experiencing revulsion for the penis it would have been gone. Period.

And many in such a position call themselves non-op: but will this remain so? One TS I know who is in her 50s (and is a beautiful, voluptuous woman fwiw) tells me she is non-op and has no intention of SRS; given her age, I believe her. When an escort in her 20s or early 30s says the same thing, I wonder if it's only marketing, since they know what brings in the $$, but will change their minds when they're in their 40s or 50s. Regardless of this distinction, it does seem clear that such women (even if they would have preferred to have been born with a vagina) do not truly feel revulsion for their penis or they would have gone for SRS when they could afford it.


^ Yeah, what he said. ^

I am always intriqued by women or men who say, "If you have SRS, how
will you make your money".

Or the other one I hear "If I have SRS, then I will be just like any other
woman".

If these are major concerns, then SRS may not be the best decision for
you at this point in your life.

[Ecstatic]

We're still learning. We want to know more, but we will never fully, truly grasp it all.
So very true, LG. I strive to understand as well as possible, but there are those boundaries I can never cross not being transgendered let alone transsexual myself. I'm just very grateul to women like Peggy, Julie, Vicki, Jen, and others who take care to express their insights and experiences as fully as possible, even if it is akin to describing color to a blind man. The more varied their responses, the more we learn.

What's most important to me is that I have come to make many friends who are transgendered, some casual and a few fairly close. I just had a wonderful long phone call with one of my dearest TG friends tonight, who I hadn't spoken with in a while, and it was so great to catch up on all aspects of our lives. (Heck, the convo was going strong when my cell phone battery died, lol.)

[tonkatoy]

Holy Christ you type a lot Peggygee.....

[Hannibal Lecter]

Mental illness or not..

Transsexuallity is a phenomenon that entirely stems from the human brain.
It is either some kind of mental disorder (which seems to be very
unlikely scenario, according to the recent researches), or even
more likely could be caused by some physical conditions inside the individual's brain.

"Some researchers have discovered that a region of the hypothalamus,
located at the floor of the brain, is about 50 percent larger in men
than in women, and almost 60 percent larger in men than in male-to-female
transsexuals. If smallness of this brain structure is at all correlated
with the feeling of being a woman, the results raise tantalizing possibilities
that transsexuals may in a sense be more female than females..... "

According to this, we could have to deal with some kind of mismatch in anatomy of the
human being. Unfortunately, our medicine is still not at such advanced level
to be able to deal with that kind of problem, but I personally hope and expect
that some day, the human science should be developed enough to deal with that easily.
And that's not because I do not like transsexuals, or something ... The thing is actually
quite opposite: I do admire transsexuals, i like them, yes, I even truly love some
of them. And not because of their penises, not at all. It's rather simply because they are
something extra, something very special. Many of them are like unread books, unread bestsellers
if You like it so. At the same time i feel kind of sorry for them. Simply because I know that they
suffer a lot through their lives. They certainly do not deserve that kind of destiny.

[MrsKellyPierce]

What his/her gut feels and tells them. It is what guides you or will keep you going in the end. You just need to listen to your own voice inside you, and do something about it and talk about it. Don't fear it or be ashamed of it, embrace it.

There are all different types of what people are comfortable with and not comfortable with. Some transexuals are against plastic surgery, while others are all for it.

I think if we put sole status on the plastic surgery aspect it becomes more shallow than what it is truly about. You felt as your needed gender long before the first stitch or first pill or shot. Otherwise you wouldn't be going through the steps to feel comfortable in your own skin.

There really is no wrong or right answer in this, besides whatever you do if it's not hurting anyone be happy and do it a 110 %

In other words if you are happy inside with your extent of transition and feel as your needed gender, stick with it and don't let someone else belittle you, because they have a different view. The only view that matters is yours when it comes to YOU.

[yosi]

The Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale is a continuim,
a scale. Individuals may not fit nearly and squarely into each definition.

The Benjamin scale is different but realated to the APA definitions.

Again, i tend to feel that you and the women you have mentioned would
more accurately fit into the Type Five designation. Type Five: True
Transsexual (moderate intensity)




If a shemale feels like a woman , looks like a woman , acts like a woman and moody like a woman - she is a woman.

it's not her cock that defines her.

scaling to different types , makes life easier for Dr. Benjamin but it doesn't mean that it is all true, it's not black and white , there are other colors 8)

[peggygee]

Holy Christ you type a lot Peggygee.....

For some individuals this may be their only exposure to the
topic of transgenderism.

For many, the only information that they possess is garnered
from porn sites, or in escort situations.

Thus, I am attempting in my humble way to balance the scales
of knowledge.

[peggygee]

The Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale is a continuim,
a scale. Individuals may not fit nearly and squarely into each definition.

The Benjamin scale is different but realated to the APA definitions.

Again, i tend to feel that you and the women you have mentioned would
more accurately fit into the Type Five designation. Type Five: True
Transsexual (moderate intensity)




If a shemale feels like a woman , looks like a woman , acts like a woman and moody like a woman - she is a woman.

it's not her cock that defines her.

scaling to different types , makes life easier for Dr. Benjamin but it doesn't mean that it is all true, it's not black and white , there are other colors 8)

Post 1700


'Shemale' is a perjorative, and derogatory term created by the porn
industry for marketing purposes.

The vast majority of transwomen neither accept nor identify with that
title.

Additionally as previously stated, it is neither a politically
correct, nor psychologically or medically valid designation.

For further readings on the subject, please peruse these threads;


Poll - 'SHEMALE' What Do 'You' Think About the Term "?

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=11530&highlight=shemale

The name Tranny Chaser

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=546&start=0

Transexuals who like their dicks?

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=15593&start=0

[tonkatoy]

Holy Christ you type a lot Peggygee.....

For some individuals this may be their only exposure to the
topic of transgenderism.

For many, the only information that they possess is garnered
from porn sites, or in escort situations.

Thus, I am attempting in my humble way to balance the scales
of knowledge.

I know Peggy, i appreciate what you do actually. I enjoy your posts, although sometimes I don't understand the bigger words. Your posts make people aware that there is more than sex in transsexual.

[peggygee]

Holy Christ you type a lot Peggygee.....

For some individuals this may be their only exposure to the
topic of transgenderism.

For many, the only information that they possess is garnered
from porn sites, or in escort situations.

Thus, I am attempting in my humble way to balance the scales
of knowledge.

I know Peggy, i appreciate what you do actually. I enjoy your posts, although sometimes I don't understand the bigger words. Your posts make people aware that there is more than sex in transsexual.

Thanks sweety. :wink:

I do realize that sometimes the subject matter gets a
little technical and complex.

But as you stated, there is a lot more to us women than
sex.

I would say for folks, men and women alike to :google
or http://webster.com/, and of
course there is always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

People may also want to save the posts and read them
at their leisure. But, yes we really are worthy of getting
to know, and understand better.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/an-fun-stuff.gif

[tonkatoy]

Holy Christ you type a lot Peggygee.....

For some individuals this may be their only exposure to the
topic of transgenderism.

For many, the only information that they possess is garnered
from porn sites, or in escort situations.

Thus, I am attempting in my humble way to balance the scales
of knowledge.

I know Peggy, i appreciate what you do actually. I enjoy your posts, although sometimes I don't understand the bigger words. Your posts make people aware that there is more than sex in transsexual.

Thanks sweety. :wink:

I do realize that sometimes the subject matter gets a
little technical and complex.

But as you stated, there is a lot more to us women than
sex.

I would say for folks, men and women alike to :google
or http://webster.com/, and of
course there is always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

People may also want to save the posts and read them
at their leisure. But, yes we really are worthy of getting
to know, and understand better.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/an-fun-stuff.gif

umm, I actually do understand the words....I was just being cute.

[peggygee]

[

umm, I actually do understand the words....I was just being cute.

And doing a very good
job at it, might I add. :wink:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/flygirl.jpg