Pakistan 'same-sex' couple jailed

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42956000/jpg/_42956121_pakistancouple_ap.jpg

A Pakistani court has jailed a married couple for three years for perjury after a dispute over the husband's sex.

Last week the court ruled that the husband was, in fact, a woman, despite sex-change surgery and that the couple had lied about his sexual status.

It also said their marriage was un-Islamic because it was same-sex.

The case is believed the first of its kind in Pakistan. The couple said they would appeal against the sentence and have asked President Musharraf to help.

Shumail Raj, 31, had sex-change surgery to become a man and then married his cousin - who was aware of the condition but says she needed his help to avoid being forced into wedlock with someone else.

'Lenient'

He is reported to have undergone surgery twice in Pakistan over the past 16 years to become a man.

But tests carried out by doctors on behalf of the court ruled that Raj, who has a beard an moustache, was still a woman.

He himself says that he needs to go abroad for more treatment even though his breasts and uterus have been removed.

Shumail Raj
Shumail Raj has appealed to President Musharraf for help

The judge, Khawaja Mohammad Sharif, said he was issuing a "lenient" sentence, below the maximum punishment, because the couple had apologised, the Associated Press news agency reports.

He also asked them to pay a fine of 10,000 Pakistani rupees ($165).

Reports said Mr Raj and his 24-year-old wife Shahzina Tariq appeared shocked by the verdict.

"We appeal to President Musharraf to intervene. Mr Musharraf is talking about moderation and enlightenment. We hope he will do something for us," Mr Raj said.

'Against Islam'

Earlier, the couple told the court that they had got married so that the wife could avoid an arranged marriage.

The bride's father wants to annul the wedding on the grounds that it is against Islam for two women to marry.

But the couple argue that they married to protect the bride from being sold into marriage to pay off her uncle's gambling debts.

Shahzina Tariq says they are not homosexuals and they married because they are in love.

The two were arrested a fortnight ago after the bride's family complained about the gender of her husband.

SOURCE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6697527.stm
__________________________________________________ ___________

~Kisses.

HTG

[JoHovian]

Damn, those poor folks were trapped by the system. You are allowed to get sex reassignment surgery, but you cannot actually be legally considered a man. it would be interesting to know what makes you legally a man in Pakistan because it says they did an examination ...genetic testing maybe, but i doubt it. Then the purgery charge seems a bit dubious if in fact they both considered him a man...its not a lie is it? i dont know it seems like revenge or ...vengeance. Ah just some more suck in the world i guess.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Yeah I know. It's double standards really. Imagine what m to f transgenders go through in Pakistan? :evil:

Sad.

~Kisses.

HTG

[scroller]

It's not trans-related, but it's quite reminiscent of a case this week in Malaysia where a couple is prohibited from marrying because (a) it's illegal for Muslims & Christians to marry, and also (b) the religious court won't allow recognition that the woman has converted from Islam to Christianity. I do feel sorry for people who live in religious-run countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Joy

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Ugh! Isnt it sad to be denied basic human rights just because you were born with the wrong body parts? :evil:

~Kisses.

HTG

[mph]

There's so much more crap going worth worrying about.. and they get hung up on a married couple.

I love when state and religion breed. The stupidity produced makes Rain Man seem like Stephen Hawking.

[TJ347]

Wow... That's all I can say really. That, and that I'm not surprised that this is happening in that part of the world. I mean, there's a long way to go here as well, but to throw people in jail...

Then again, that's not exactly unimaginable here, now is it?

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Makes one think were still somewhat lucky we dont live in those countries huh?

~Kisses.

HTG

[Felicia Katt]

Makes one think were still somewhat lucky we dont live in those countries huh?

~Kisses.

HTG
Hara, you know I love you, but that kinda shit happens here. Several states have rule that despite completing SRS, a person's gender is defined by their chromosome and have invalidated marriages on that basis.

in Kansas
http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2002/03/22/kansas_ruling/index.html

in Texas
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/marr07.shtml

in Florida
http://oc-divorce.typepad.com/california_divorce_and_fa/spousal_support/index.html

Sad, but true.

FK

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Makes one think were still somewhat lucky we dont live in those countries huh?

~Kisses.

HTG
Hara, you know I love you, but that kinda shit happens here. Several states have rule that despite completing SRS, a person's gender is defined by their chromosome and have invalidated marriages on that basis.

in Kansas
http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2002/03/22/kansas_ruling/index.html

in Texas
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/marr07.shtml

in Florida
http://oc-divorce.typepad.com/california_divorce_and_fa/spousal_support/index.html

Sad, but true.

FK

I know you do. LOL But I was saying..what I meant was - Their law covered the whole country whereas here in the USA the laws vary by state. People can easily move and ofcourse it's not as bad as moving to a different country Felicia. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Mercurye]

How sad this....

These are the people that the (dutch) goverment should give a home to here, if they are willing

Not some polish metal workers that come to leech of off the system

By the way...is it rare for a FTM to fall for men?....

[SarahG]

whereas here in the USA the laws vary by state. People can easily move and ofcourse it's not as bad as moving to a different country Felicia. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

But if you were born in a state like Ohio, even if you get SRS you'd never be able to get your Ohio birth certificate changed to reflect being postop... so moving doesn't allow everyone after srs to be able to marry someone of the opposite gender.

With Ohio the law is so... "strict" that, if I am correct, it is also impossible to change ones sex status on your birth certificate regardless the reason... so if the dr is drunk/in a rush/etc and checks the wrong box- you're left with a BC that doesn't match even if the patient isn't trans or IS in any way.

It also means that even if you do move, anything that uses your BC to fill in your sex status on papers/ids/etc- will use the wrong information if you're a postop from a place such as Ohio (for instance, if you move to a state/country/whatever that uses your BC for filling out gov ids, dls, whatever).

EDIT/ADD:

According to this site, Ohio is not the only state to refuse BC amendments;
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=524

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

But if you were born in a state like Ohio, even if you get SRS you'd never be able to get your Ohio birth certificate changed to reflect being postop... so moving doesn't allow everyone after srs to be able to marry someone of the opposite gender.

With Ohio the law is so... "strict" that, if I am correct, it is also impossible to change ones sex status on your birth certificate regardless the reason... so if the dr is drunk/in a rush/etc and checks the wrong box- you're left with a BC that doesn't match even if the patient isn't trans or IS in any way.

It also means that even if you do move, anything that uses your BC to fill in your sex status on papers/ids/etc- will use the wrong information if you're a postop from a place such as Ohio (for instance, if you move to a state/country/whatever that uses your BC for filling out gov ids, dls, whatever).

EDIT/ADD:

According to this site, Ohio is not the only state to refuse BC amendments;
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=524

I see. I read the article you've included SarahG. So If you were born at a state like Ohio. Then gotten SRS, You can still move to a different state with your SRS papers from your doctor and then go to court to file for a legal name change and sex on your ID, No?

I think the problem with some states are some of their laws are too stern and technical on this matter..One is basically screwed.

:evil:

~Kisses.

HTG

[BrendaQG]

Ashaduan la-illaha il la ullah ashadu an Muhammadan rasulula.
I witness their is no god but god and I witness Muhammad was the messenger of god.

I have been monitoring this tread for a while. I was wondering if a certain fact would be brought up. This other news story also from Pakistan which did not get nearly as much press in the west.

Militants beat up dancers: By Ghulam M. Marwat (http://www.dawn.com/2007/04/13/top11.htm)


LAKKI MARWAT, April 12: Clashes between militants and villagers in the Dhoda-Shah Hasankhel area on Thursday morning left two people injured. About a dozen people were taken hostage by the militants.

Sources said a group of Taliban militants had beaten up some transvestite dancers, shaved their heads and broken their musical instruments near Abdulkhel as they were going to the Dhoda village to perform at a wedding on Wednesday night.

Villagers decided to take revenge by raising a Lashkar against the Taliban, the sources said.

Light and heavy weapons were used and the Taliban also fired rockets during the clash which lasted for several hours.

The Taliban took 12 villagers hostage. Five of them were later freed while the others were in the custody of the Taliban till late evening, according to the administrator of a seminary, Hafiz Amanullah Khan.

A heavy contingent of police and Frontier Constabulary personnel reached the area.

A ceasefire was brokered by some local ulema who held talks with village elders and the Taliban.

The sources said the situation was tense and additional contingents of the FC had been summoned.

The big red letters are obviously mine.

What do we really have to learn from this?

HJTG asked about how MTF's are treated there. The fact is that a MTF who has SRS is recognized as a woman for all legal purposes. They have a long history as those known as Hijra's also live in Pakistan. Pakistani Hijras are muslims as are most other people there. Their way of life goes back to both pre-islamic south asia, and a simmilar culture in Arabia. See: wikipedia:Mukhannathun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun). I wrote most of what is in that article and found it's sources. What you will find there backs up what I have just said.

The second thing we learn is that FTM's are universally less understood and accepted than MTF's. The way that the laws in most places are written regarding transsexuality they have MTF's in mind. As such the are very surgery centric. That is they take the defining quality of who is male and who is female as being genetalia, by nature or medicine. This is much simpler for MTF's. As a physilogoy teacher told me "it's easier to make a hole than a pole". The FTM surgery is far less satisfactory so many do not get it.

I have read in some sources (that I will link to latter) that this person did not in fact have Phallopalsty and so is still anatomically female. Hence under Pakistani (or for that matter even Illinois) law would legally be female and would be in a same sex marriage. I am not going to debate the mertis of same sex marriage. But lying about having had SRS to curcumvent the marriage laws is not the right way to do this.

The same thing happened here in Illinois. Simmilarly the marriage was not recognized as having ever been valid. The case resulted in legislation requiering that the SRS surgeon be licensed in the USA.

The last thing we learn from this is that the media in the west plays to certain biasses. I would really like to know more about the case of those transswomen who were attacked by the Taliban then defended by those villagers. To read more about it I need to get allot better with Arabic. The western world has a certain bias. Which says "that if the islamic world is against gay people it is also against transpeople". "The Islamic world is backwards" etc. When stories that reenforce that come up they are palyed up in the media. When stories like the one I pointed out come up they are burried.

I can personally vouch for the fact that muslims who know I am a transsexual, in particular those from south asia, are as a race second only to hispanics in terms of treating me with respect and dignity. If I am having a bad looking day they do not smirk.


Basically: You cannot trust the media to tell you the whole story when it comes to the treatment of GLBT people who live in the muslim world.

[SarahG]

So If you were born at a state like Ohio. Then gotten SRS, You can still move to a different state with your SRS papers from your doctor and then go to court to file for a legal name change and sex on your ID, No?

That would depend on the state.

Suppose you move to a state where solely the birth certificate is used for the marriage license process (I believe thats the way they do it in most states under the assumption that postops would get the BC changed after srs...). If the statues of your state/country/etc go by the BC, it wouldn't matter how well you could prove you've had srs.... unless you got the law challenged in the courts OR got the law changed (depending on the state that would be most unlikely at best).

I don't think a legal name change would make a damn bit of difference. I also know for a fact some states, like NY outside of NYC- go strictly by your BC when it comes to your sex status on your IDs (such as your drivers license). I wouldn't be surprised if you could get some dmvs, when it comes to DLs, to ignore BC requirements in favor of documentation of srs completion... I suspect that would be hit or miss.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Update on this:

‘She-couple’ gets bail

ISLAMABAD: The Supreme Court on Thursday released on bail a married couple who were jailed for three years after it emerged that one of them was a transsexual, their lawyer said. The SC suspended a judgment handed down in May by the Lahore High Court and agreed to hear an appeal by the “husband”, 31-year-old Shamile Raj, lawyer Babar Awan told reporters. “The two-member bench of the court headed by [Acting Chief) Justice Rana Bhagwandas granted bail to the couple against surety bonds of 50,000 rupees each,” Awan said. Raj married a cousin, Shehzina Tariq, in September last year in what the couple said was a bid to avoid her being sold off to pay the gambling debts of her uncle. But the bride’s relatives went to court to get the marriage dissolved. Medical tests revealed that Raj was born a woman and had undergone sex-change surgery several years earlier. The LHC sent the couple to jail for three years last month for perjury by saying Raj was a man.

Courtesy DailyTimes.com.pk

~Kisses.

HTG