Do we understand each other?

[TomSelis]

This might turn into a long thread. The only reason I'm posting this is because lately, there seems to be less knuckleheads and more level-headed posters posting. Some threads have been really enjoyable to read.

Another thing I'm going to say before I start is, the only reason I'm even bringing this up on a porn board is because every once in a while something real comes up and thoughtful discussion goes with it. Some things I just hold back on because I really feel like not enough people will understand where I'm coming from.

So my question is do men and transexuals understand each other? I mean really are we even trying to understand each other? There's been so many times I've read a thread on some topic that just went in circles with no middle ground inbetween. I know sometimes this board thrives on drama and humor, but it seems like sometimes all that really does is mask a lot of pain.

I know it masks pain because I've felt that pain and I see it in others' posts sometimes. I've heard it from "know it alls" on both sides, the definative answer to men or the definative answer to transexuals both in real life and on here. While I admit somethings are true and true in horrible ways, some things I just have to shake my head at because they aren't true in horrible, horrible ways at the same time. When I hear or read them I always feel like we don't understand each other on a basic level.

Maybe it's just "the life" that does this to you, but I've always tried to be optimistic about it. That one day I'll find a girl that gets it or at least gets it on the level that I'm getting it. No, I'm not here looking for love, I look elsewhere for it and usually find a reasonable facsimile. I'm not even single, so I'm not trying to say "Look at me, girls, I'm different!" I'm really wondering do we have an understanding of each other or are we trying to?

So, I guess I've rambled on long enough. But I'll give a few examples before I stop.

I was talking to two gorgeous post-ops (yeah imagine that!) one time when the older one suddenly turned bitter and said, "Don't chop it off! All these men care about is dick!" Suddenly I'm the defender of all men and all I can say is, "No, it's not like that....I really wouldn't care." I really had to walk away at that point because....well I knew it wasn't going anywhere.

I've also had a couple of conversations about how we as men that like transexuals are stuck. I'll admit, I've tried to walk away and ended up with a transexual again. But in the end, I wouldn't call it stuck. I just can't see it as "Stuck."

Finally, part of the reason I've brought this up is because I was sitting out on a balcony, butt naked watching the sunset off the Hudson river with this girl for two hours after some amazing sex. And every once in a while I kept thinking, "I think she gets it....I think we get each other."

So, I've gone on long enough. What do you think? Do we as men and transexuals "Get each other?"

[whatsupwithat]

Do we as men and transexuals "Get each other?"

My take is "all we got is each other" so it's probably best if we "get each other".

[TomSelis]

Do we as men and transexuals "Get each other?"

My take is "all we got is each other" so it's probably best if we "get each other".

Well, that's what I'm saying, but I still wonder sometimes: Do we?

[TJ347]

You've read the threads around here, haven't you? At any given time, there's guys arguing with guys, girls arguing with girls, girls arguing with guys and guys arguing with girls. I'd say the answer was pretty clear, no?

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

What the hell are you talking about, Tom?

Girl, you always crack me up! :lol: That guy who posted Wienna and Vienner was fuckin' funny!! LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[whatsupwithat]

Tom, do you think you're capable of having a strong platonic relationship with a TS, or is that just something you feel isn't for you? I mean, does your question have more to do with dating and fucking Tgirls, or merely co-existing with Tgirls? Because, to me at least, it all sounds like the typical shit any guy has to say about dating GGs. Honestly, if you have a one track mind, what is there to really get? What concept do you have such a big problem getting through to TS women?

Good point...for all of us.

I think a lot of us guys are looking for love. Me included. Matter of fact, I think we, guys and girls alike, all are. But, then again, finding that is a biatch. As for friends, I would say out of my five closest platonic relationships, at least three are TS and one is a woman. It's not like it was an active choice, just the way my life has shaken out.

[TomSelis]

Tom, do you think you're capable of having a strong platonic relationship with a TS, or is that just something you feel isn't for you? I mean, does your question have more to do with dating and fucking Tgirls, or merely co-existing with Tgirls? Because, to me at least, it all sounds like the typical shit any guy has to say about dating GGs. Honestly, if you have a one track mind, what is there to really get? What concept do you have such a big problem getting through to TS women?

Good question Ari, I was kind of hoping it wouldn't be misinterpreted like that, but I knew it probably would be since it was kind of a stream of consciousness post.

My question has much more to do with co-existing than about fucking. Fucking is tangental because, I'm talking about understanding in a male- female way, which at times does involve fucking.

Believe it or not, I do have a transexual friend that is platonic. But even in that every once in a while, I'm like "Do you understand?" and sometimes she looks at me the same way.

But no, I don't even want to nail it down to something specific as fucking or friendship. I'm speaking in general. But maybe you're right, for some people it probably is about fucking or something else. I know it's possible to fuck, befriend or co-exist with a transexual.

But I feel like sometimes there's some serious, fucked up misunderstandings too. It seems sometimes that there's some misunderstandings where there shouldn't be and I think that comes from not understanding. Like whatsupwitthat said, "All we got is each other...." but sometimes it seems like it's guys vs. girls or vice-versa. Moreso than on a male-GG level.

[justatransgirl]

I think overall T's are able to relate to men better than women, because we have often had similar experiences, at least at some level.

I think forum discussion is different from real conversation / life.

Yes, I think there is occaionally pain involved with being trans. And I think most men don't quite understand women or T's. I also think most men look at TS from a sexual standpoint, much like with GG's. And there's NOTHING wrong with that honey! I for one like it.

And I think there are post-op women who aren't totally satisfied. And possibly weren't satisfyable in the first place. "Chopping it off" really has little to do with being trans anyway.

And I think everyone connects with someone at different levels.

Your TGF by the river sounds like someone who understands you. And I guess that's all most people are really looking for regardless of gender or sexuality.

I know I have the same feeling toward my partner, and occasionally I find similar feelings wiht gentlemen I/we date.

Anyway, gotta go!

Hugs,
TS Jamie

[TomSelis]

Tom, I think your whole post can be summed up as, "Trannys: can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em", which is pretty weak considering that some guys actually CAN. Sorta sounds like a 'misery loves company' attitude.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying goes more with what imjustatransgirl is saying, but what I'm wondering can we understand. I defintely don't agree with transexuals understand men because they used to be one, because I don't think it's the same thing. Maybe somewhere in my mind I'm thinking men and transexuals should be able to relate much BETTER to each other....at least on some level. But I'm not talking about just on a strictly sexual level at all. I'm not talking about a "I worship the ground you walk on" level, "top-bottom" level or anything like that.

I'm not worried about her getting "it" either, because I think she does. But it's not about the "me and her" it's about just understanding as a whole.

[TomSelis]

And, Tom, that post is not an attack on you. They're my observations about the overall reasons that TS and men don't hook up as easily as they probably should and could. There are plenty of great girls and great guys out there, but circumstance sometimes works against both. I feel badly for any guy who loves TS women, but who has to fake that he doesn't, to get by in the world.

Nah, I know it's not. You're just putting it out there, which is the point of the thread really.

But still, I'm not talking about just hooking up. But I guess if somebody had the answer to it they'd be rich.

[whatsupwithat]

I doubt that men will find an easier answer to dealing with us than they will with GGs. Its all pretty much the same now, as far as your scoring potential goes.

I usually agree with you, but here...no way. Women, by far, are much easier to meet and score with. In fact, it's crazy out there. The heterosexual population has way surpassed even the gay population as far as sex and being open are concerned. Beautiful girls are throwing themselves at men...and just for sex. I mean, maybe it's a percentage of the population thing, but I go out to a straight club, and, if it was my thing, I would be getting laid every night. Okay...that sounds vain, but it's not. I'm just trying to make the point that if I go to a transgender club or event, the defenses are way up. No one trusts anyone. It's the complete opposite of what is happening in the 'straight' world.

Uhm. does any of that make sense...I'm wired on coffee and trying to finish a script...

[whatsupwithat]

And, Tom, that post is not an attack on you. They're my observations about the overall reasons that TS and men don't hook up as easily as they probably should and could. There are plenty of great girls and great guys out there, but circumstance sometimes works against both. I do feel a certain amount of sympathy for certain guys who appreciate TS women, but have to fake that they don't just to get by in the world. I think that E has the best attitude here when it comes to that stuff. Those men simply need to have some balls. He who dares, wins.

Awww, that's so sweet! And after you read my last post, you're going to totally rescind it. Please don't! :lol:

[TomSelis]

I usually agree with you, but here...no way. Women, by far, are much easier to meet and score with. In fact, it's crazy out there. The heterosexual population has way surpassed even the gay population as far as sex and being open are concerned. Beautiful girls are throwing themselves at men...and just for sex. I mean, maybe it's a percentage of the population thing, but I go out to a straight club, and, if it was my thing, I would be getting laid every night. Okay...that sounds vain, but it's not. I'm just trying to make the point that if I go to a transgender club or event, the defenses are way up. No one trusts anyone. It's the complete opposite of what is happening in the 'straight' world.

Uhm. does any of that make sense...I'm wired on coffee and trying to finish a script...

Nope, makes perfect sense to me! Because what you said is true.

I owe somebody $5......shit.

[TJ347]

Women, by far, are much easier to meet and score with.

This is definitely true in my experience, and as whatsupwithat said later, the defenses are up from the door, seemingly regardless of your approach. There are of course exceptions, but again, in my experience, they have been very few and far between. (2 out of about 25, to be specific.)

[whatsupwithat]

I owe somebody $5......shit.

Bwahahahaha! :P

[TomSelis]

Bwahahahaha! :P

*middle finger*

Nah, but you get what I'm saying....which is good.

[whatsupwithat]

Bwahahahaha! :P

*middle finger*

Nah, but you get what I'm saying....which is good.

Totally. :)

[whatsupwithat]

Ok, let me clarify that then. I meant that the demographics are closer now. But certainly not in the sheer volume that you will find GGs. GGs do outnumber us greatly. But you aren't taking into account stealth TS that go to straight clubs either. Because any girl you meet in a "tranny club", and who can pass, is also likely to be no stranger to "straight clubs". Personally, I go to both.

Yeah, a lot of the girls go to 'straight' clubs. I mean, the majority do...at least here in NYC. Maybe it's because I've been in the community for so long, but I've yet to be out-stealthed (is that a word?). Then, again, maybe I have and I don't even know. That would be cool.

[Vicki Richter]

I doubt that men will find an easier answer to dealing with us than they will with GGs. Its all pretty much the same now, as far as your scoring potential goes.

I usually agree with you, but here...no way. Women, by far, are much easier to meet and score with. In fact, it's crazy out there. The heterosexual population has way surpassed even the gay population as far as sex and being open are concerned. Beautiful girls are throwing themselves at men...and just for sex. I mean, maybe it's a percentage of the population thing, but I go out to a straight club, and, if it was my thing, I would be getting laid every night. Okay...that sounds vain, but it's not. I'm just trying to make the point that if I go to a transgender club or event, the defenses are way up. No one trusts anyone. It's the complete opposite of what is happening in the 'straight' world.

Uhm. does any of that make sense...I'm wired on coffee and trying to finish a script...

I agree here. The difference is almost any TS you meet in a club is an escort. So there are $ signs involved. In straight clubs the girls work at anything from Macy's to school teachers to college students. These girls fuck to have fun. I think after long enough in the sex industry, girls can get jaded about sex or hooking up for fun. When something is your job you might be more inclined to not want to do your job for fun.

I think that is why a lot of girls top as escorts but are more inclined to bottom in their personal relationships. It is something they save for fun.

The vibe is totally different in straight clubs, and I've said it before. In LA TS clubs at least, most of the guys don't have friends there. So they sit by themselves doing nothing but staring. Nobody dances but the girls 90% of the time. There is more give and take in straight clubs. No guy goes to a straight club expecting to have to pay for sex, he feels that, by his charm and good looks, he can score. Money will win out over good looks in a TS club 90% of the time.

Of course I am just making up these percentages, but does anyone disagree?

[TheOne1]

Money will win out over good looks in a TS club 90% of the time.

Of course I am just making up these percentages, but does anyone disagree?

...i think good looks vs money is more like 60/40 in a ts club

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

A good provider knows where her bread and butter lies. And that's with the older daddies who are unfortunately bent out of shape and less than attractive. Goodlooking guys would have to wait out til club closing to score for older daddies "pick of the litter" (I've seen this every weekend back when I hung out at TS clubs). LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[shotgun]

I'm just trying to make the point that if I go to a transgender club or event, the defenses are way up. No one trusts anyone. It's the complete opposite of what is happening in the 'straight' world.

Uhm. does any of that make sense...I'm wired on coffee and trying to finish a script...

Ding - Ding - Ding!!

I have very limited experience amongst Ts women to say the least. I came to these boards on a fluke, and stayed because the conversation was interesting and I felt I could learn a great deal here - and I have, and continue to. But do we “get” each other (as the original topic stated?) It doesn’t seem like it.

Every relationship is going to have it’s problems.

I think Joe Walsh is cool, you don’t - I want to live in the country, you like the city - I smoke, you hate cigarettes, etc, etc... Add to that the Transgender aspect and, if you lean on it too hard, it will ruin any relationship. The very few Ts women I have met think of little else than “what” they are as opposed to “who” they are. Being Transgendered becomes an overwhelming part of them rather than just being one other part of them, and they hold out suspicion of the men that they meet. ‘You only want this’ ‘You’re only talking to me because of that’. Maybe that’s only natural. I couldn’t say. I am not that wise. But, no,.. I don’t think Ts women and men, in general, “get” each other.

But, there is hope.

As I say to the guys I know all the time; “Who cares if SHE doesn’t like you? Who cares if they don’t like how you dress, or talk, or walk? There are literally billions of women on this planet, and you only need to find one.” And, that goes for all of us.

[peggygee]

Tom, I think your whole post can be summed up as, "Trannys: can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em", which is pretty weak considering that some guys actually CAN. Sorta sounds like a 'misery loves company' attitude.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying goes more with what imjustatransgirl is saying, but what I'm wondering can we understand. I defintely don't agree with transexuals understand men because they used to be one, because I don't think it's the same thing. Maybe somewhere in my mind I'm thinking men and transexuals should be able to relate much BETTER to each other....at least on some level. But I'm not talking about just on a strictly sexual level at all. I'm not talking about a "I worship the ground you walk on" level, "top-bottom" level or anything like that.

I'm not worried about her getting "it" either, because I think she does. But it's not about the "me and her" it's about just understanding as a whole.I think that men who are tend to surround themselves with TS women who escort, but are getting jaded because they're not meeting the "girl next door", are barking up the wrong tree. There was actually, believe it or not, a time when being a TS escort was not as profitable as it is now. However, within this whole new "market", you're going to find x-amount of cut-throat "vendors".

By the same token, we've been demystified to a great extent, and you're going to find the opposite end of a very broad spectrum now. TS women going to college, becoming professionals, etc; young hotties that most of you can't touch. So now you're gonna have to work even harder at finding the non-predator TS girls; the ones that your money doesn't mean shit to. ;-) True, some girls are all about coin. But some want to live stealth and bypass all of the sexworker stuff completely. And (big shock, get ready) there are going to be PLENTY who fall somewhere in between! That is why I doubt that men will find an easier answer to dealing with us than they will with GGs. Its all pretty much the same now, as far as your scoring potential goes.

But guys often feel sorry for themselves and tend to stereotype ALL women as two-faced bitches and whores, when that's exactly who they're always persuing. So, I ask you, where's the confusion?

Where as, TS women usually have a better understanding of the broad spectrum of other TS's; far better than the typical tranny-chaser is going to.

But what you're going to find in social setting where most TS are in for the coin is not going to be their vulnerable side. And, trust me, every TS sexworker does have a vulnerable side, believe it or not. Most of you guys just don't get to see it. But then again, why should you if you've only got one thing on your mind anyway?

The trick for us becomes to not show you that side when going to "work" because its just not going to benefit our survival. There's simply no room for mercy fucks or pity in sex work. In fact, we simply leave it "at home". It just doesn't exist in the presence of a trannychaser; that is, if she has a brain in her head she's not giving a tranny-chaser an inch. Because you have to be incredibly strong-willed to be a transsexual - but you have to even stronger to be a sex worker! Another reason why there's not alot of mercy shown to you guys is, WE UNDERSTAND YOU ALL TOO FUCKING WELL! We went to school with you. We know how you think. We unfortunately had front row seats. We know how you will pose like you're all "man" in public, but bend over privately.

Anyway, all that macho posturing is jackshit compared to being a TS. Now of course, WE know that. But most of you do not not like to think about it. ;-)

I tend to concur with Nicole's answer on this question.

I believe the fundamental reason for the the dis-connect or problem in
communication is that most men are either dealing with the trans sex
worker or perceiving that he is doing so.

Encounters, relationships, communication with sex workers of any gender
or sexuality is going to be fraught with difficulty and problems.

But as Nicole has pointed out we all aren't engaged in the sex trade.
Transwomen are found in all sectors of society. However the most visible
ones are those that are escorting or are in porn. To judge all transwomen
by your experiences with those in the sex trade will cause you to come
away with a faulty assessment.

[peggygee]

I defintely don't agree with transexuals understand men because they used to be one, because I don't think it's the same thing. Maybe somewhere in my mind I'm thinking men and transexuals should be able to relate much BETTER to each other....at least on some level. But I'm not talking about just on a strictly sexual level at all. I'm not talking about a "I worship the ground you walk on" level, "top-bottom" level or anything like that.

I'm not worried about her getting "it" either, because I think she does. But it's not about the "me and her" it's about just understanding as a whole.

I also don't feel that transwomen should understand men better because
they may have been born male, but often have psychologically identified
as female for their formative years.

Then too what of the women who has lived the majority of her life in the
correct gender. In my instance I have lived the majority of my life as the
female I was born to be. Yes I have engaged in sterotypicallly male
activities at some points in my life, but throughout my life, pre and post
transition I have perceived myself female.

While I have a fairly strong working understanding of human behavior in
general I do not feel that I have a greater understanding of the male
species.

[peggygee]

I was talking to two gorgeous post-ops (yeah imagine that!) one time when the older one suddenly turned bitter and said, "Don't chop it off! All these men care about is dick!" Suddenly I'm the defender of all men and all I can say is, "No, it's not like that....I really wouldn't care." I really had to walk away at that point because....well I knew it wasn't going anywhere.





Also, I don't get something. You're telling us about a conversation between "two gorgeous post-ops", and one told the other, "don't chop it off"? That sounds wrong for two reasons. First, if they're both post-ops, its a little late to give that type of advice. Secondly, what post-op refers to SRS as "chopping it off"?

I feel that there is a third thing wrong with that logic;

A women shouldn't opt for for SRS in the hopes that it will help her get
a man, she should do it because she feels it is right for her.

Then too that logic reminds me of the sentiments that you may hear from
some that if a transwomen has SRS, she no longer will be able to earn
an income, or that there will be nothing that distinquishes her from genetic
females.

[tonkatoy]

I dated a girl (ts) who escorted off and on, more on, while we were together. It can be very hard on a relationship. There are several thoughts i had following being with her, we were together about three and a half years. I think some TS women have no real sense of the future, no sense of something long term. I don't want to say all are that way, but I think it may be because there is no family, at least in the normal sense, in the future, and for girls in the sex industry there is not the longevity existing in other fields. Also, most women fight aging tooth and nail, but for ts it can be more of an issue, with thinning hair and other things to combat as well. Again, i am not saying all will have trouble aging, but it can't be something pleasant to look forward to. Fortunately the girl I was with did not drink or do drugs, but that also seems to be a problem. The biggest thing I hated about her working was actually her clients, I wanted to kill them all with a hammer. Most of them were married, trying some taboo thing, I kept thinking, If this is what you want then find a ts girl to be with, but they were mostly chickenshits who would never admit to liking ts women. On the other hand, if I had had more money to spend on her she would not have gone back to working, its funny, but providing a place to live, car, meds and all was not enough. So it was my fault for sticking with her after she decided that i was not making money fast enough for liking. And as Vicki related a lot of the working girls lose some interest in sex since it is their job, while I remained as horny as I ever was. Being with her was not all about sex to me, I actually loved her, she met my family, drove a company truck with my name on the side of it, and all that. I tried to get her to help with my business, which she did a tiny bit, but i never got the idea that we were a team. I don't know if I will be with another ts woman or not, but if I am I doubt if she will have been in the industry. My experience probably has not been typical, so, who knows.

[TomSelis]

If you're not single, are you married or engaged? A ltr? To a GG, a pre-op, or a post-op? And of those three types of ladies, which do you see as optimal "significant other" material for a person like you? Or do you not want any type of ltr anyway? I'm not baiting you, and I don't feel that there's any "right" answers here. I'm just genuinely curious.

Also, I don't get something. You're telling us about a conversation between "two gorgeous post-ops", and one told the other, "don't chop it off"? That sounds wrong for two reasons. First, if they're both post-ops, its a little late to give that type of advice. Secondly, what post-op refers to SRS as "chopping it off"?

I'm in a relationship with a pre-op. I don't think in terms of "optimal" if that makes any sense, because optimal is a relative term. It truly is about the person, trite as that sounds. I can love a person for them, be it a GG, pre-op, post-op or non-op, (hell I've even had a lesbian/bi girlfriend) if I couldn't I'd be cloistered away somewhere praying right now.

I know you're curious, but it seems like you're trying to quantify what I'm saying for....something that I'm not saying. And that's cool, but what you're saying isn't what I'm talking about, but that's obviously your reality. So I can't knock it either.

You're going off into a tangent with venue. I don't frequent parties geared specifically towards TS's. I've been to roughly, five give or take. I've never been to NOW bar or Edelweiss either. My purpose in going is to meet people like me, which I've done successfully.

Yeah, the part about the post ops, I left out the part about a pre-op who was also kind of in the conversation that mentioned she wanted to get SRS, while the younger post-op mentioned she just got SRS not too long ago. That's when the older post-op sort of went off. But her mentioning that made the conversation go straight to hell. "Chop it off" was my wording, not hers, but that was the jist of what she was saying. That was done for brevity's sake. The older pre-op well could've been a former sex worker, I really don't know. So I'm not trying to take away from your guys and sex worker aspect.

But my point with those little anecdotes was to point out some serious disconnects and to point out a connection. Nothing more than to show it can go both ways. And just like you're curious, so am I. I'm curious about men and transexuals having an understanding of each other and do people even care about that. From the few answers I got, I can see all of the above. It's just a different kind of discussion. I wasn't expecting a twelve page thread, I was just curious about how others felt, knowing the answers would be varied. It all depends on your experiences.

Obviously, you can find love with a transexual, that's not what I'm talking about. I feel there is more misunderstanding than understanding though. What I'm talking about could easily be transferred to male-female relationships and not lose it's meaning. But this isn't the forum for that. :wink:

[BeardedOne]

I think Joe Walsh is cool, you don’t - I want to live in the country, you like the city - I smoke, you hate cigarettes, etc, etc...

"The chores!"
"The stores!"
"Fresh air!"
"Times Square!"

It will always be thus, whether the intended have a kitty or a skin flute.

:shrug

PS: Shotgun, you have a cool-ass avatar. :rock2

[TJ347]

I know you're curious, but it seems like you're trying to quantify what I'm saying for....something that I'm not saying. And that's cool, but what you're saying isn't what I'm talking about, but that's obviously your reality. So I can't knock it either.

:shock: I defy anyone on this forum to explain what the hell you're saying here. I really do. Anyone?

What Tom is saying, I think, is:
I know you're curious about the topic I'm speaking of, but it appears you're trying to change the topic to something else. That's fine, but just recognize that what you're talking about isn't the same as what I'm talking about. However, it is a good topic, so I'm not complaining.

How'd I do Tom? :D And is there a prize for my defiance Nicole? :wink:

[TomSelis]

Oh, for fuck's sake, here we go....I knew this was coming.

The last thing I'm going to say to you on this is: obviously people do know what I'm talking about. Or else they wouldn't have responded the way they did, which is the opposite of the way you did. The only TS I have a problem talking to is you.

Here's what I'm understanding from you: "You're looking in the wrong places, Tom. You're scared of a commitment, Tom. You don't know how to deal with a transexual woman, Tom.....etc." Basically, you're trying...very hard to make this about me.

Here's what I'm trying to get you to understand: This wasn't a thread about me. You're not getting that. I've tried to clarify over and over and over, but somehow, TJ, whatsupwiththat, imjustatransgirl, peggy, shotgun and tonka all magically understood what I was saying. Funny how that worked out.

So, whatever language I'm speaking, they speak it too. You don't....oh well.

[TomSelis]

What Tom is saying, I think, is:
I know you're curious about the topic I'm speaking of, but it appears you're trying to change the topic to something else. That's fine, but just recognize that what you're talking about isn't the same as what I'm talking about. However, it is a good topic, so I'm not complaining.

How'd I do Tom? :D And is there a prize for my defiance Nicole? :wink:

Sorry, TJ, but there is NOT a prize for the defiance of Ari. Not on here.

But that didn't need to be said, because that's what I said the first time. She just chooses not to see what I'm saying.....whatryagonnado? Instead she just wants to ask me questions about something I'm not even talking about. When I answer that question, it leads to another question! Like you said, sometimes it depends on who's posting what. If someone else posted the same exact thing, might've gone a different way. *shrug* But they didn't.