Islam and Transsexualism

[runningdownthatdream]

Islam and islamic countries were once famous for tolerance, as much as they are known for being intolerant today. The article in the link below was a pleasant surprise to me. I hope it provides some interest to everyone else.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4115535.stm

[Caleigh]

totally fascinating article

who would think that the man who symbolizes religious repression
here in the U.S., the Ayatollah Khomeni, would come out in favour
of the rights of transsexuals?! the fact that homosexuality is illegal
isn't so great but.....

[eclipse2000b]

That's a great story. the status of transgendered people seems to vary across the Islamic world. I read an article awhile back about repressions in Turkey & Egypt, which are supposed to be more 'liberal' or at least Western-oriented. I think the Islamic world is just like the West: no clear consensus on the social status of transpeople.

Historically, what we call berdache people (two-spirits is the Native American term) were considered Holy or to have shamenistic powers. This seems to have been common in early agricultural and pastoral societies. Moreover, anthropologists have found evidence of such Shamanism in the Middle East, Africa, Asia and Europe.

Some scholars have argued that Islamic traditions are a firm blend of Judeo/Xian tradition (remember Muhammad saw himself as the final prophet in those traditions) blended with an earlier Semitic, matriafocal, Jahilian society. In Jahilian society, it seems clear that the role of women was important in ways resembling the North American Iroquois. Thus there was little social taboo in a physical male identifying as a female. This older tradition may have been evident in the Ayatollah's approach to the transsexual.

[RangeHova]

Hey, let's not slam the whole entire religion just because a few nutty leaders have misinterpreted the teachings. The same thing happens here everyday with Christianity.

That's just the nature of man.

[thatguy]

oh god, its hillarious how the doctor says that looking at some of the girls now you would never know they were once males...really? you mean through the beekeeper suits you make the girls wear? tough to get a good look at em? interesting....fuckin evil people...
Iran is not Afghanistan. It's actually more liberal than man people realize, although the culture is still oppressive toward women. If any break is going to happen in the Islamic world, it will happen in a Shiite country...

[eclipse2000b]

If we hadn't sent in Kermit Roosevelt and the CIA in the 50s to overthrow Mossedeq, and promoted democracy instead of the Shah (who delivered the goods), Iran may have emerged as a secular democracy like Turkey. Just like our support of Saddam in the 1980s our foriegn policy is often short-sighted and designed to keep the oil pumping.

[runningdownthatdream]

oh god, its hillarious how the doctor says that looking at some of the girls now you would never know they were once males...really? you mean through the beekeeper suits you make the girls wear?

When you say 'you' what and who are you referring to?


tough to get a good look at em? interesting....fuckin evil people...

Educate yourself about the people and why Islam was successful. Like all revolutions it was based upon the repressed and oppressed taking control of their destiny and like all social revolutions (before and after) it was perverted and ultimately wound up in the control of a few very wicked people....much like your American constitution has been hijacked and turned into an instrument of repression. Just as the rest of the world should not judge Americans based on 'Democracy' or 'Republicans' then muslim HUMAN BEINGS should not be judged evil based on Islam


and to say that islam should be commended for its stance on this issue is like saying hitler is a great guy for having a good tax plan. its a fucked up system and you cant help it by trying to convince its religious leaders to consider things, etc. you need to burn the fuckin thing down and start from scratch like we did in germany half a century ago and they turned out quite well......don't you see that it's a neverending cycle to use your solution

You can't be serious brother....where do we actually start with this statement? Do you really believe that works? Do I really need to point out that Hitler was attempting to do the same thing? He saw a problem with Germany's position in the 20th century. He and over 50% of the GErman population (check the election results for the year he was voted chancellor....it also happens to be one of the highest voter turnouts in history with close to 85% of eligible voters going to the polls) believed that 'International Jewry' was responsible for Germany's collapse. He took your advice DID attempt to burn the whole thing down...literally....the ovens existed.


the only good thing islam ever did was raise the stock of bowties.........

Don't confuse the American black 'muslims' with Islam. They actually believe there is a spaceship hovering above the earth waiting to beam good black people up on 'judgement day' while all creations of the devil (the white man) will be destroyed.....no....seriously....

I thought you understood the purpose of religion and could look beyond the theology just as I would hope you look past the ideology of anyone who is not American and see the human. Seems like you're still a novice and still hating the effect rather than addressing the cause....

The point I tried to make by posting the article was simply to reinforce that there is always light at the end of the tunnel. When we are prejudiced we tend to miss those......the irony is that the ayatollah states the obvious: the issue is a HUMAN one......not a theological one.

BTW......I do not believe in religion in any form.....nor do I worship anything or anyone......as usual there will be other posters making comments that this is a transsexual porn board and therefore these types of posts aren't welcomed here.....and that's it exactly: ideology, theology, philosopy and anything else we want to throw in is ALL related....just as we are all related as humans....we can't just separate ourselves and hate people for their religion or their gender or sexuality etc etc etc......isn't this all bloody obvious!?!?!?

[Hungtop]

You guys sound like you know a lot about islam.
Let me see J what do you know about islam? check your resources first fool.
Ignorant ass M****r F***r.

Now have a nice weekend.

[eclipse2000b]

Well, articulated Mr. Dreams. One minor correction. Hitler was not voted into power as chancellor. Pesident Paul Von Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor (against his own intuition) due to backroom wrangling between Franz Von Pappen, Oscak Von Hindenburg and others. However, you are quite right that Hitler did well in the previous election for chancellor (1932 I believe) although he did not win. By 1933 the Nazis were losing electoral strength, but gaining control of key national posts. Plus Hitler had the support of the industrialists. Everyone thought they could control him, but as we all sadly know: they were mistaken .

[runningdownthatdream]

Well, articulated Mr. Dreams. One minor correction. Hitler was not voted into power as chancellor. Pesident Paul Von Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor (against his own intuition) due to backroom wrangling between Franz Von Pappen, Oscak Von Hindenburg and others. However, you are quite right that Hitler did well in the previous election for chancellor (1932 I believe) although he did not win. By 1933 the Nazis were losing electoral strength, but gaining control of key national posts. Plus Hitler had the support of the industrialists. Everyone thought they could control him, but as we all sadly know: they were mistaken .

Thanks......you're right of course. He bullied his way into being named chancellor in 1933. Although the Nazis did win the 1932 Reichstag election with 37% of the vote (they had more seats than any other party and Hitler also did very well in the presidential campaign) Hindenburg chose to appoint a chancellor from another party. Eventually though Hitler would be named to the post. In 1934 the Nazis won the election with over 50% of the vote and this time Hindenburg had to choose Hitler first as chancellor.

.......now who would have thought such a discussion could occur in a place like this......are you reading J?

[Tara Emory]

I slam, you slam, we all slam for Islam!

Okay, I just made that up. I thought it was funny.

-Tara

[runningdownthatdream]

fuck them and you guys for defending these backward abusive fuckers..hey i feel like MEGA here;) its fun
...

Hey I feel your rage.....it starts there, when one recognizes how truly fucked shit is in this world...but hopefully you will evolve to see beyond what you are fed through the media..........

.....ahhh Tara.......thanks for your insightful comment........go make a costume - or something - based on it..............

[Ecstatic]

theres a reason why the west has evolved and has skyscrapers and technology and bridges and these muslim counries have camels and shit and tents...its because theyre evil fuckin people who use all their energy and power to control woman and minorities and keep their own people down...good, all praise great allah...
Interesting...all of the technological evolution of the West since the Renaissance has been built upon the tremendous intellectual evolution of the Islamic world between 900 and 1400 AD, from al-chemy (misunderstood by Medieval Europe but developing into modern chemistry), al-gebra (note the Arabic origin of these names), astronomy, medicine, physics, philosophy, linquistics, literature. In virtually all fields of intellectual endeavor and evolution, the Islamic culture flourished, utterly surpassing all prior civilizations in many areas and laying the foundations of modern science. Camels and shit? Hardly. Spain under Moorish rule was tolerant and open, and Medieval Jewry had its greatest flowering there, epitomized by the writings of Maimomedes (Guide for the Perplexed), but when the Moors were ousted by the Christians, the Jews had to either convert or were exiled. Tolerance ceased and oppression, in the form of the Inquisition, took hold.

Yes, civilizations move in cyclic patterns, and while there continue to be great intellectual movements in the Islamic world, as a culture they have slipped and the West has ascended. But nothing is permanent.

As for Islamic treatment of women, let alone the transgendered or homosexuals, yes there is a lot of room for improvement, but the same can be said of most institutions, religious or not. When Mohammed founded Islam, women were far more supressed than they are today, having less worth than camels, being unable to inherit or own property, and possessing little if any social status. Islam improved their lot tremendously. It's not as black and white as you indicate, J (not that there isn't merit to your criticisms; there is, but there's more to it than that).

[Ecstatic]

I slam, you slam, we all slam for Islam!
LOL!

.....ahhh Tara.......thanks for your insightful comment........go make a costume - or something - based on it..............
I can just see Tara in hijab...but very little of her, lol. It would make an interesting outfit to strip tease out of, though.