VA Tech Shooting

[chefmike]

I don't believe this shit. My youngest sister graduated from there...hell, we used to smoke dope out on the fuckin lawn there...WTF? My oldest sister works only hours from there....

[chefmike]

I was up most of the night, so I just woke up and found out about this...America and guns, what is it with us, people?

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

my cousin attended there in the past, I understand what you mean

At least 20 people have been killed and more injured after a gunman went on the rampage at the campus of Virginia Tech university in Virginia, US.

Police say there were two separate shooting incidents - one at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a student dormitory, and Norris Hall, an engineering building.

The incidents were about two hours apart. Police say that the gunman at Norris Hall is dead.

The state university in the town of Blacksburg is home to 26,000 students.

"We have a ballpark figure on fatalities. It's at least 20 fatalities," Virginia Tech police chief Wendell Flinchum said.

Mr Flinchum said it was unclear if the assailant was a student, but said that a number of the victims were.

"Some of the victims were shot in a classroom," he said.

"Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said, adding that the university was in the process of informing the next of kin of those killed.

[specialk]

I was up most of the night, so I just woke up and found out about this...America and guns, what is it with us, people?


I don't know Chef, I just don't have an answer :(

[whatsupwithat]

"I Don't Like Mondays"
by The Boomtown Rats


The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload
And nobody’s gonna go to school today
She’s gonna make them stay at home
And daddy doesn’t understand it
He always said she was good as gold
And he can see no reasons
'Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be show-ow-ow-ow-own?

Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oot the whole day down

The Telex machine is kept so clean
And it types to a waiting world
And mother feels so shocked
Father’s world is rocked
And their thoughts turn to their own little girl
Sweet 16 ain’t that peachy keen
Now that ain’t so neat to admit defeat
They can see no reasons
'Cos there are no reasons
What reasons do you need?
Oh Oh Oh Oh

Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oot
The whole day down, down, down, shoot it all down

And all the playing's stopped in the playground now
She wants to play with her toys a while
And school's out early and soon we'll be learning
And the lesson today is how to die
And then the bullhorn crackles
And the captain tackles
With the problems and the hows and whys
And he can see no reasons
'Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die, die?
Oh Oh Oh

Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like
I don’t like (Tell me why)
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don’t like
I don’t like (Tell me why)
I don’t like Mondays
Tell me why
I don't like Mondays
I wanna shoo-oo-oo-oo-oo-oot the whole day down

[hwbs]

what a tragedy....they did say they had another suspect in custody...

[chefmike]

22 people dead, 28 injured, killer committed suicide, apparently...

[tsmandy]

What a bummer, I always liked Blacksburg. I haven't been there since 2004, but I sure hope the friends that I had there are ok.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

and to think I watched Bill Maher last night and laughed at a 'right to bear arms' joke that was made............

[whatsupwithat]

According to some peeps I know...(edited)...peeps were wrong.

[chefmike]

What a bummer, I always liked Blacksburg. I haven't been there since 2004, but I sure hope the friends that I had there are ok.

I hope so too...and I hope that all of my little sister's "little sisters" attending there are OK as well...I attended a game there with her just this past winter...a beautiful campus...or it was, anyway...

[Phat]

I don't think I'll ever understand the motivation behind something like this

[whatsupwithat]

ABC is now saying 29-32 killed...one shooter...

[Legend]

How 1 guy can take out 32 people alone is disturbing.

[trish]

shit! checking in here, i'm just learning about this!! i've got colleagues there and like everyone else i'm hoping friends and acquaintances are all safe. what the fuck is wrong with people???? hope your family's ok chefmike, tsmandy and everyone else who's worried.

[chefmike]

Needless to say, parents all over the world are worried, as Tech has a very diverse student population...and the statistics are looking worse by the hour. Very sad.

[Quinn]

How 1 guy can take out 32 people alone is disturbing.

I'm surprised by the number of casualties as well, particularly if it's just one shooter who's responsible. Fuck!

-Quinn

[FiremanforTS]

Crazy. What I want to know is why there wasn't a lockdown after a campus shooting.

The real death toll came TWO HOURS after the initial shooting, and at a different building that would have had no access if they had imposed a lockdown.

I wouldn't want to be the police right now, but i suppose there could be a reasonable explaination.


Bryan

[chefmike]

If the campus cops were the initial responders, well...ever dealt with campus cops? Most of them make Barney Fife look good...

[chefmike]

Actually all VA cops make Barney Fife look good.

[Azanti]

Sorry, I accidentally overlooked this folder and started another one - This is the 19th school shooting in the USA in the last ten years.

God I hope the number does not rise.

[Legend]

How 1 guy can take out 32 people alone is disturbing.

I'm surprised by the number of casualties as well, particularly if it's just one shooter who's responsible. Fuck!

-Quinn

the shootings from what i heard occurred within a 2 hour period and no o prevent more shootings from happening is crazy.

[chefmike]

Now they are saying that this nutjob actually chained the doors shut of at least one of the buildings after he entered...32 confirmed dead now...

[Kabuki]

Damn...I'm actually back in Virginia...I was wondering why my cell phone was blowing up in the middle of the day.

[chefmike]

I just heard an eyewitness report on MSNBC from a student in one of the classrooms in Norris Hall...the shooter never uttered a word...

[Kabuki]

Actual blog from a person at Tech.

http://icantread01.livejournal.com/103060.html

[Kabuki]

I'm sitting here crying...wondering wtf...friends and family are trying to contact students on campus.

[chefmike]

http://www.sbindependent.org/node/1791

[peggygee]

...America and guns, what is it with us, people?

It may be time to rethink this!

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/moses200x342.jpg Guarantees Of The Right To Arms In State Constitutions
America's love affair with guns:

Alabama: That the great, general and essential principles of liberty and free government may be recognized and established, we declare....That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state. (Art. I, § 26)

Alaska: A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. (Art. I, § 19)

Arizona: The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the State shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men. (Art. II, § 26)

Arkansas: The citizens of this State shall have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense. (Art. II, § 5)

Colorado: The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons. (Art. II, § 13)

Connecticut: Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state. (Art. I, § 15)

Delaware: A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use. (Art. I, § 20)

Florida: The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law. (Art. I, § 8, [a])

Georgia: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but the General Assembly shall have the power to prescribe the manner in which arms may be borne. (1982 Constitution, Art. I, § 1, para.

Hawaii: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. (Art. I, § 15)

Idaho: The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of legislation punishing the use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony. (Art. I, § 11)

Illinois: Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. (Art. I, § 22)

Indiana: The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State. (Art. I, § 32)

Kansas: The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power. (Bill of Rights, § 4)

Kentucky: All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned: ... Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the state, subject to the power of the general assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons. (Bill of Rights, § 1, para. 7)

Louisiana: The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person. (Art. I, § 11)

Maine: Every person has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned. (Art. I, § 16)

Massachusetts: The people have a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it. (Part I, Art. XVII)

Michigan: Every person has a right to keep or bear arms for the defense of himself and the State. (Art. I, § 6)

Mississippi: The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons. (Art. III, § 12)

Missouri: That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons. (Art. I, § 23)

Montana: The right of any person to keep or bear arms in defense of his own home, person, and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. (Art. II, § 12) "Militia forces shall consist of all able-bodied citizens of the state except those excepted by law." (Art. VI, § 14)

Nebraska: All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain inherent and inalienable rights; among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied or infringed by the state or any subdivision thereof. (Art. I, § 1)
Nevada: Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes. (Art. I, § 11, [1])

New Hampshire: All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state. (Part I, Art. 2a) No person, who is conscientiously scrupulous about the lawfulness of bearing arms, shall be compelled thereto. (Part I, Art. 13)

New Mexico: No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons. No municipality or county shall regulate in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms. (Art. II, § 6)

North Carolina: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice. (Art. I, § 30)

North Dakota: All individuals are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property and reputation; pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness; and to keep and bear arms for the defense of their person, family, property, and the state, and for lawful hunting, recreational and other lawful purposes, which shall not be infringed. (Art. I, § 1)

Ohio: The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power. (Art. I, §4)

Oklahoma: The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person or property, or in aid of the civil power, when thereunto legally summoned, shall never be prohibited; but nothing herein contained shall prevent the Legislature from regulating the carrying of weapons. (Art. II, § 26)

Oregon: The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power. (Art. I, § 27)

Pennsylvania: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned. (Art. I, § 21)

Rhode Island: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. (Art. I, § 22)

South Carolina: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. As, in times of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained without the consent of the General Assembly. The military power of the State shall always be held in subordination to the civil authority and be governed by it. No soldier shall in time of peace be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner nor in time of war but in the manner prescribed by law. (Art. I, § 20)

South Dakota: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied. (Art. VI, §24)

Tennessee: That the citizens of this State have a right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime. (Art. I, § 26)

Texas: Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime. (Art. I, § 23 ) Note: The Texas Declaration of Independence stated that "[The Mexican government] has demanded us to deliver up our arms, which are essential to our defense -- the rightful property of freemen -- and formidable only to tyrannical governments."

Utah: The individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state as well as for other lawful purposes shall not be infringed; but nothing herein shall prevent the legislature from defining the lawful use of arms. (Art. I, § 6)

Vermont: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State -- and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power. (Chapter I, Art. 16)

Virginia: That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. (Art. I, § 13)

Washington: The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men. (Art. I, § 24)

West Virginia: A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home, and state, and for lawful hunting and recreational use. (Art. 3, § 22)

Wisconsin: The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation, or any other lawful purpose. (Art. 1, § 25) Note: This provision was approved by Wisconsin voters in Nov. 1998 by a 3:1 margin.

Wyoming: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied. (Art. I, § 24)

Notes:

California, Iowa, Maryland, Minnesota, New Jersey, and New York do not have "right to keep and bear arms" amendments in their state constitutions.

Iowa`s constitution (Art. I, § 1) states: All men are, by nature, free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights--among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

New Jersey`s (Art. I, § 1) states: All persons are by nature free and independent, and have certain natural and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety, and happiness.


Posted: 11/18/1997 12:00:00 AM




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Copyright 2007, National Rifle Association of America, Institute f


http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=63

[chefmike]

I just got off of the phone with my little sister, who attended Virginia Tech...and she reminded me that the dorm involved in the shootings was the one that she lived in her freshman year...needless to say, she was crying...I am sick to my stomach over this.

Of course if you live in Baghdad, as opposed to Blacksburg, it's just another day...

[a994]

Trish, Kabuki, chefmike, and all the rest of you with loved ones in the area: I hope and pray that all of your loved ones are safe.

[peggygee]

MENU TITLE: Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms.

Series: NIJ Research in Brief
Published: May 1997
20 pages

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt

National Institute of Justice
Research in Brief



Key issues: With nearly 200 million guns in private
hands, firearms have an important impact on the
quality of life in America. What is the size and
composition of the Nation's private gun inventory?
What are the methods of, and reasons for, acquiring
firearms? How are firearms stored? How frequently
are guns used against criminal attackers?

Key findings: The survey data and analysis yielded
the following results:

o In 1994, 44 million Americans owned 192 million
firearms, 65 million of which were handguns.
Although there were enough guns to have provided
every U.S. adult with one, only 25 percent of
adults actually owned firearms; 74 percent of gun
owners possessed two or more.
o The proportion of American households that keep
firearms appears to be declining.

o Sixty-eight percent of handgun owners also
possessed at least one rifle or shotgun.

o Gun ownership was highest among middle-aged,
college- educated people of rural small-town
America. Whites were substantially more likely to
own guns than blacks, and blacks more likely than
Hispanics.

o The most common motivation for owning firearms
was recreation. Forty-six percent possessed a gun
primarily for protection against crime.

o There were 13.7 million firearm transactions in
1993-1994, including 6.5 million handguns. About 60
percent of gun acquisitions involved federally
licensed dealers.

o About 211,000 handguns and 382,000 long guns were
stolen in noncommercial thefts in 1994.

o Slightly more than half of all privately owned
firearms were stored unlocked; 16 percent of
firearms were stored unlocked and loaded.

o In 1994, about 14 million adults (approximately
one-third of gun owners) at least once carried a
firearm in their vehicles or on their person for
protection.

o Evidence suggests that this survey and others
like it overestimate the frequency with which
firearms were used by private citizens to defend
against criminal attack.

Target audience: Criminal justice and public health
researchers and practitioners. Legislators and
policymakers at all levels of government.

[Phat]

eh, I don't think banning guns is going to stop a crazy person from carrying out their will

[SarahG]

eh, I don't think banning guns is going to stop a crazy person from carrying out their will

Maybe if the whole student population was armed & trained to be decent with their firearms, this shooter wouldn't have lived long enough to kill 31 people...

[chefmike]

If you're interested, VA Tech news conference is starting momentarily on MSNBC...

[LTR_Seeker]

Yeah real sad just saw on report the gun man was looking for his gf

[Phat]

eh, I don't think banning guns is going to stop a crazy person from carrying out their will

Maybe if the whole student population was armed & trained to be decent with their firearms, this shooter wouldn't have lived long enough to kill 31 people...

let's say hypothetically there are no firearms in the US, they're completely illegal and near impossible to get a hold of. Will this really discourage a madman from murder and suicide? Who's to say he won't create explosives, or orchestrate some other plan to kill? The fact is this sick fuck is going to do what he wants regardless of the instrument used.

You can ban guns but you can't ban psychos.

[chefmike]

I hope that this is wrong, but I just got a report from my sister that the death toll is closer to 40 ... and why were the local K-12 schools locked down before Tech was?

Heads should roll...

[chefmike]

I was also told that the shooter is rumored to have been from Radford University...it's about a thirty minute drive from Tech...

[Azanti]

For evil to prosper all it takes is for good men to do nothing.

[Phat]

For evil to prosper all it takes is for good men to do nothing.

To say this could have been prevented is an insult to all involved including the victims

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

How 1 guy can take out 32 people alone is disturbing.

I'm surprised by the number of casualties as well, particularly if it's just one shooter who's responsible. Fuck!

-Quinn

there are several guns that can be purchased at a gun show that can do the sick twisted task that was taken out............

I feel bad for both the students of Va. Tech and Radford

[suckseed]

Damn. I hope everyone's friends and loved ones are okay.
These types can't just simply end their own miserable lives, can they?

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

She said that the gunman, who looked asian, left and She and another classmate barricated the door while others attended to the wounded and injured.

WOW, that's all I'm going to say................just wow

[chefmike]

Brian Williams from NBC on is location there as I type...

[chefmike]

The rumor about the killer being from RU hasn't yet been confirmed...but I've had some damn good times at RU, and at the campus that was once known as VPI (it was when my dad attended there)... and this literally brings tears to my eyes.

[LTR_Seeker]

Long long ago a aunt of mine got involved with a man who was gun runner who gave out automatic weapons or anything for the right price if every gun waqs banned unde r law a man like him wpud still provide guns to people who seek harm so gun band wont ever work with the black market around its inevitable to think gun bans will stop massacres.

[chefmike]

updated news conference now on MSNBC EST

[Legend]

Apparently the gunmen was a 24 years old,chinese and over here under a student visa.

[Linda]

Fist I want to say I feel for the families. I really do. It is sad, but Speaking from the point of view of someone who has faced a criminal. The best defense is a good offense. A legally owned gun saved me from a robber. The police can't be everywhere all the time. I wonder. I read this earlier ??? It makes you think about how two of the school shootings were stopped???

VA Tech official praised defeat of student self-defense proposal in 2006
Jeff Johnson
OneNewsNow.com
April 16, 2007


A Virginia Tech official in 2006 praised the defeat of a proposal to allow students with state-issued concealed handgun permits to carry their handguns on college campuses in Virginia. At least 20 unarmed students were killed on the VA Tech campus Monday morning by a single gunman.

advertisement



Virginia House Bill 1572 was proposed in 2005 by Shenandoah County, Va., Republican Del. Todd Gilbert after a VA Tech student with a state-issued concealed handgun permit was arrested and charged only with "unlawfully" carrying a handgun on campus. The bill would have prohibited state universities in Virginia from enacting "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

After the proposal died in the state's House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety, The Roanoke Times quoted VA Tech spokesman Larry Hincker as celebrating the defeat of the bill.

"I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions," Hincker said on Jan. 31, 2006, "because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Following Monday's multiple-victim shooting at VA Tech, Erich Pratt with Virginia-based Gun Owners of America called that philosophy "idiocy."

"I think gun control advocates will say, 'See, we need more gun control,' even though this is exactly the product of gun control," Pratt said.

Currently, only Utah and Oregon have statutes specifically authorizing law-abiding individuals with concealed handgun permits to possess their firearms on state university property. Most other states have explicit or implied prohibitions.

"Every [other] school campus in this nation is a 'gun free zone,' supposedly," Pratt bemoaned. "But, isn't it amazing that criminals, bad guys never obey those laws."

Regarding Utah, Pratt adds, "Isn't it interesting that that's the one state where we haven't heard of any school shootings."

At least two school shootings have been stopped by armed civilians before police arrived:

· January 9, 2002, Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, Va. - 43 year old Peter Odighizuwa, who had flunked out of the small law school earlier in the week killed three people and wounded three others. Two law students - Tracy Bridges and Ted Besen - retreived a handgun from Bridges' vehicle and held Odighizuwa at gun point for several minutes before police arrived. (Bridges was a reserve deputy sheriff, but was not on duty at the time of the incident.)

· October 1, 1997, Pearl High School, Pearl, Ms. - 16 year old Luke Woodham carried a rifle onto the school campus, killed his ex-girlfriend and one of her friends and wounded seven other people. Assisstant Principal Joel Myrick retreived a handgun from his truck and held Woodham for police. It was later learned that the teeneager had beaten and stabbed his own mother to death before the attack at the school.

Pratt is not optimistic, however, that lawmakers will allow public university students and faculty members to protect themselves from mass murderers like the one who struck VA Tech Monday.

"The only schools and universities where these tragedies have been stopped abruptly were the places where law-abiding citizens had a gun that was accessible to them and they were able to stop the shooter," Pratt noted. "The schools and universities that had to wait for the police to arrive, those are the ones that find these high death tolls.

"It's just a real shame," he concluded, "that these guys never get it."

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

This shit is a mess....................

The Chinese Embassy should make a statement out of respect, let's see if that happens.

The university will recover but it will take years, and not to sound fucked up but let's face it, most of the students in attendance this semester just passed all of their classes, not to mention just got presented with free counseling for the next year.

This might lead to universities nationwide being forced to cover all entrances to universities and demand identification from anyone and everyone trying to get on campus at all times.

If anyone thinks this will end gunshows or change gunlaws, guess again. Not with this current administration...............

[tsafficianado]

yes, linda, i'm sure you're right...parents will feel much safer sending their kids to campuses where ANYONE may be carrying a handgun, not just the one in a million lunatic. then instead of an occassional (and horrible) tragedy, we'll have daily reports of shootings on campuses across the nation. swell. and just imagine the great fraternity hazing stories we'll get when a couple dozen frat boys get kegged up and decide to shoot everything in sight. get a clue.

now let me give you a couple of figures.....shootings attributed to handguns kept in the home for defense purposes count less than 5% in cases of self-defense, 75% in cases of shooting a family member or acquaintance and about 20% to suicide. pretty poor rate of return i would say.

i am NOT a gun control advocate, have several handguns myself but in the case where i was robbed i'm glad i was not armed, the cretin got $35 off of me and that is far better than the possibiliity of one of us (particularly me) getting shot. in the circumstance of being robbed would you have been willing to take the perp's life? over a few bucks?

as for the (biased) article, doesn't sound to me like anybody 'stopped' any shootings. in both cases people were killed and injured. sounds to me like the shootings were over and the perps were then held for the police. big difference. or perhaps you think the perp shot a few folks, then stopped for a snack before proceeding with their rampage and in the down time their prospective captors went out to the parking lot to fetch a gun to nab them with?

[Quinn]

This has me extremely depressed. Something like this would have been tragic in any setting, but to go after a bunch of university students. WTF!!! Why couldn’t he have hit a NAMBLA meeting or something like that? And what’s with the police not even confirming if the same guy is responsible for both attacks? Even for something this serious, they’re being very tight lipped.

-Quinn

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

This has me extremely depressed. Something like this would have been tragic in any setting, but to go after a bunch of university students. WTF!!! Why couldn’t he have hit a NAMBLA meeting or something like that? And what’s with the police not even confirming if the same guy is responsible for both attacks? Even for something this serious, they’re being very tight lipped.

-Quinn

because like other brilliant HA minds said earlier [and I apologize for not picking it up sooner folks] there must have been more than one shooter

I mean look at the map

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42808000/gif/_42808585_shoot_sat_map416.gif

you mean to tell me even with what I said earlier about weaponry that one person could do all that in that distance without a phonecall from the 1st location to the authorities?????

cmon now
maybe thats why they are being tight lipped

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

At this point he reloaded, shot the door again - this shot did not penetrate - and moved on to the other classrooms.


Scene at Virginia Tech
As we heard the police arrive outside, the shooting continued, and the officers eventually came through the building

More eyewitness accounts
Thankfully, nobody in our room was hurt. At this point, I was already on the phone with the emergency dispatcher, indicating to them that there was a shooting on the second floor of Norris Hall.

The shooting continued for several minutes, until the police arrived, and the shooter must have shot at least 80-100 rounds.

As we heard the police arrive outside the building, the shooting continued, and the officers eventually came through the building.

Even though it seemed to take quite a long time, the timer on my phone seemed to indicate that the whole sequence of events was over in only 25 minutes.

At that point, we were escorted from the building by the police.

Clearly someone had been seriously hurt in the hallway not more than a few paces from our classroom.

I did not look in the adjoining classrooms, but those who did simply told me after that "it was sad".

[Quinn]

you mean to tell me even with what I said earlier about weaponry that one person could do all that in that distance without a phonecall from the 1st location to the authorities?????

cmon now
maybe thats why they are being tight lipped

I don't know about multiple shooters, but I am in agreement with any notion that the delay in information being released might be due to a little CYA/damage control. Blacksburg isn't exactly a large municipality with a diverse economic base. Its wellbeing is integrally linked to the university and its fortunes.

-Quinn

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

you mean to tell me even with what I said earlier about weaponry that one person could do all that in that distance without a phonecall from the 1st location to the authorities?????

cmon now
maybe thats why they are being tight lipped

I don't know about multiple shooters, but I am in agreement with any notion that the delay in information being released might be due to a little CYA/damage control. Blacksburg isn't exactly a large municipality with a diverse economic base. Its wellbeing is integrally linked to the university and its fortunes.

-Quinn

after a bit of reading and listening to other's thoughts on other forums I am on I stand corrected, it is possible that there was ONLY ONE SHOOTER...... however, I stand by the tight lipped theory in regards to this being an issue between 2 nations since the shooter was a student from another country......... unless he took the Dick Cheney "shooting 101" course for 3 credits at his university he HAD TO learn how to shoot that weapon overseas...................

[Quinn]

unless he took the Dick Cheney "shooting 101" course for 3 credits at his university he HAD TO learn how to shoot that weapon overseas...................

I was thinking along those lines too. Statistically speaking, a larger proportion of people who have been shot have died than would normally be expected. If memory serves, you were in the army, so you know what most other's don't: someone getting shot isn't like the movies. Unless you hit the head or a vital organ, etc., a person has a pretty good chance of surviving getting shot -- so long as they have timely access to proper medical treatment.

He was either a trained marksman or he had his victims cornered to the point where he could get them at near point blank range. At least that's the way I see it.

-Quinn

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

after a bit of reading and listening to other's thoughts on other forums I am on I stand corrected, it is possible that there was ONLY ONE SHOOTER...... however, I stand by the tight lipped theory in regards to this being an issue between 2 nations since the shooter was a student from another country......... unless he took the Dick Cheney "shooting 101" course for 3 credits at his university he HAD TO learn how to shoot that weapon overseas...................

In my Not So Humble Opinion...

This guy was trained. He knew how to keep his cool and execute. A “jilted lover” would not keep his cool. Furthermore, the events leading to the executions (i.e. the bomb threats and planning) suggest some careful planning.

Maybe a sort of "This is what we can do" message to someone... (Think Asymmetric warfare - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare ).

agreed, once again based on that map I posted 2 pages ago whoever did this [if it was indeed one person] had the calm to proceed from one building to another unnoticed and execute the same mission, that's a trained individual.......................

[NYCe]

http://vt.facebook.com/photos.php?id=6202368&l=d1b29

Supposedly the Facebook photo album of the shooter. Got this in an e-mail from someone in my line of work. Not confirmed yet but the person is in pretty good authority.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

H&K MP5

[Quinn]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of those pics find their way into a gun control ad or two.

-Quinn

[twowaybro]

If the above person is indeed the shooter....those photos r quite revealing. They help explain the high casualty number as it is apparent that he was a trained, proficient marksman and a gun advocate. Sad story. 8) 8)

[ezed]

This is a horrible incident! Let's see what shakes out. We really don't know anything yet. The press is jumping on everything anyone says and I imagine the police aren't saying shit till they figure it out. Wait. see what's real and what's heresay.

I have daughter in college and Boston and was horified at this story. But we can't do shit till we know more and I guarentee you, we don't know shit yet.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

more info......................

Survivors of the worst shooting rampage in US history have criticised authorities for waiting too long to alert people a gunman was on the loose.

The gunman killed 32 at Virginia Tech university, before killing himself.

There were two hours between the two separate attacks - 30 of the victims were killed in the second one.

Students have asked why the campus was not locked down, but officials defended their actions, saying they could not have foreseen the second incident.

ok so it's apparent that there was 1 shooter
who had 2 hours between shootings, 2 FUCKING HOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
9/11 tower one was hit by the 1st plane, people thought it was some idiot at 1st that lost control of his jet, then the 2nd plane hit the 2nd tower, all commercial jets were ordered to the ground or threatened to be shot down..........

someone fucked up royally, lives could have been saved

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[NYCe]

Lol.

*wipes egg off my face*

Sad to say several federal officials also have to wipe chicken ovaries from their faces.

Sucks to be that guy.

[chefmike]

I just saw an interview with one of the students in a classroom that managed to keep the shooter out. When he realized that they had barricaded the door, he shot into the door, but the students were holding the desk on either side of the door. The killer moved on and the 10 or so students in the class survived.

[chefmike]

A local doctor who treated the wounded just stated that the killer was so methodical and brutal that most victims were shot more than once. Hospital press conference will start shortly on CNN.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

I just saw an interview with one of the students in a classroom that managed to keep the shooter out. When he realized that they had barricaded the door, he shot into the door, but the students were holding the desk on either side of the door. The killer moved on and the 10 or so students in the class survived.

Nikolas Macko was in class at Virginia Tech when a gunman entered the building and started shooting. He described the experience to the BBC News website.

I was in class in Norris Hall at around 0940 when we heard a series of loud bangs coming from the hallway.

The sound did not register immediately, even though it was startlingly loud.

When it started again seconds later, the girl sitting by the door decided to close the door.

She peeked out into the hallway, and saw the shooter, so she immediately closed the door shut.

Three other students moved a table that was in front of the room and barricaded it against the door.

A few seconds later, the shooter tried to open the door, but my classmates kept it well shut, as they held the table against it.

The shooter shot the door twice at chest level, which resulted in two holes in the door, one of which hit the podium in the front of the classroom and the other continued out the window.

[lisaparadise]

a freakin asian asshole what a waste of space this piece a shit is.pathetic

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

This isnt the 1st time such thing has happened here in the US. It's very depressing to learn that these events keeps repeating themselves. Sadly, in todays society..it seems that we got too many people walking around with psychological/mental issues/problems! :evil:

~Kisses.

HTG

[dgtlmstry]

I agree...but few seem to want to ask the question WHY, and the ones that do, fool themselves into b/s answers that lead to so called "solutions" The U.S. needs big, radical changes...or this will continue right on along, and get even worse. But everyone already knows that. The truth is, in a few weeks, everyone will go back to watching American Idol or whatever other crappy reality show is the flavor of the month.

[werwt22]

I live in Virginia and a lot of people from my high school go to and have graduated from VA Tech. It's terrible. And where the fuck did a Korean Immigrant get 2 fuckin guns? Who the hell did he know?

[trish]

lot's of people, and especially young adults become confused and angry, for scores of inter-related reasons. we may never know why one particular shooter flips out. perhaps it was self-disgust, perhaps it was depression, perhaps it was inability to face academic failure, or failure in love, or failure to live up to parental expectations. perhaps all of these reasons and others create the urgency to project and act. maybe the shooter's just a mean son of a bitch. but one thing is certain: if a would be assassin can squeeze off more then twenty rounds in ten seconds, innocent people are going to die. a disturbed youth in the middle ages might have been able to blugeon his girlfriend, in the age of enlightenment he might challenge an adversary to a duel. modern automatic weapons take that youth and make him an angry super-villain. arming us all would escalate the violence. i can't articulate the ills of society that lead to this sort of behavior. i don't expect anyone ever will. i do expect humans today are no different then they were centuries ago. but today we've got automatic and semi-automatic weapons...weapons that need to be severely regulated.

my deepest condolences to all of you who have family and friends suffering from yesterday's horrible event.

[Somedude21]

WTF? How could I miss this? I honestly had no idea that this happened until I woke up this morning. Damn, I need to start paying more attention to the news. My deepest condolences to anyone who has family there for this horrible incident.

What amazes me is how the hell this guy managed to do what he did within TWO HOURS without getting stopped. What the hell happened here? There's going to be hell to pay for someone, that's for sure.

[Linda]

As for taking the perps life. Yes I would have taken his life. He was trying to take my life. He tried to runover a member of my family as well. He didn;t give me a chance to decide. I had to act, or die. I didn;t have to kill him. Don't think it is like on TV. IT ISN'T !!!!!! There is no talking to them. You don't always get a chance to fight them for the gun, and for those that think a car isn't a weapon think again. check out ogrishforum.com see what happens when a car hits a person. Don't be a victim. It isn't just a few dollars you are fighting for, many will kill you just to make sure you don't talk. IF they are on drugs they will kill you for the money rather than do without. I come from a law enforcement back ground I know. Some racist, and Homofobic A** holes will do hurt you just for the satisfaction of getting a FAG out of the world. Not everyone is as loving as us.

[gaiseric]

A view from the other side of the pond.

I've read a lot of the posts on here and the commemnts in the newspapers and it is certainly an extremely tragic event. Unfortunately I can see this type of situation repeating itself in the future unless the US state and federal governments decide that life is more important than cash and votes from the gun lobby and acquire the balls to put in place some stricter gun controls.
This will not solve the gun problem by itself. Take the current situation in UK where the government rushed through a politically correct, knee jerk response to a shooting here and banned all hand guns. The result - those that used guns for fun shooting now couldn't and the UK Olympic shooting teams have to train abroad, but the criminals can still get guns. I believe this would still be the case in the US if gun ownership was to be banned. The hardened criminal can always get guns from somewhere.
I think the good result would be a reduction in cases like this where someone flips out, grabs a gun and starts shooting. If all guns were banned, the person who is flipping out would not be able to get access to firearms and would have to solve his problem some other way. At least he wouldn't be trying to shoot everyone in sight.
However until your elected officials get the balls to go against the gun lobby, I think you have a problems that is not going to disappear.
This is not meant as a flame to get at anyone, it's just my view and the way I see the situation. For all I know I could be talking total rubbish. If you have comments, I'd be interested to see them.

[whatsupwithat]

Ongoing list of the victims and their online presence (myspace pages, etc):

http://www.bloggingwv.com/virginia-tech-victims-list-and-their-myspace-pages/

Sad.

[tsafficianado]

linda, in your initial message you said that you were able to avoid a robbery because you were carrying. you didn't say the perp had a gun or that the perp was threatening your life or that the perp tried to run over a family member. kay? i was robbed at gunpoint and i didn't feel any threat to my life, only to my wallet. had i been packing someone might have been shot, and it might have been me.
you APPEAR to be advocating a culture in which EVERYONE carries a gun, perhaps slung on the hip in a quickdraw rig? don't get me wrong, i'm not advocating gun seizure. i think we're all intelligent enough to know that control doesn't prevent thugs from getting their hands on guns. the simple facts are that most handgun shootings are out-and-out murders, crimes of passion and suicides with a VERY MINUTE percentage related to robbery and other crimes of opportunity.
do you think it's a coincidence that the US has both the highest percentage of handgun possession per capita and by far the highest rate of shootings? i hope not.
i wish i knew a fix for these problems, i don't. i definitely do not think that advocating that every breathing american be or feel compelled to carry a handgun is the answer. advocating that universities allow the packing of handguns by students is, pardon the expression, moronic. shootings on campus would become as common as ticks on a hound dog.

you say you come from a law enforcement background? and you are advocating an armed populace? odd perspective.

[Kabuki]

A view from the other side of the pond.

I've read a lot of the posts on here and the commemnts in the newspapers and it is certainly an extremely tragic event. Unfortunately I can see this type of situation repeating itself in the future unless the US state and federal governments decide that life is more important than cash and votes from the gun lobby and acquire the balls to put in place some stricter gun controls.
This will not solve the gun problem by itself. Take the current situation in UK where the government rushed through a politically correct, knee jerk response to a shooting here and banned all hand guns. The result - those that used guns for fun shooting now couldn't and the UK Olympic shooting teams have to train abroad, but the criminals can still get guns. I believe this would still be the case in the US if gun ownership was to be banned. The hardened criminal can always get guns from somewhere.
I think the good result would be a reduction in cases like this where someone flips out, grabs a gun and starts shooting. If all guns were banned, the person who is flipping out would not be able to get access to firearms and would have to solve his problem some other way. At least he wouldn't be trying to shoot everyone in sight.
However until your elected officials get the balls to go against the gun lobby, I think you have a problems that is not going to disappear.
This is not meant as a flame to get at anyone, it's just my view and the way I see the situation. For all I know I could be talking total rubbish. If you have comments, I'd be interested to see them.

The gun control laws will never really change in the states. The southern and bible belt states would never allow strict gun control laws. Anyone running for office who claims they want strict gun control laws will lose their election. It's out of control at this point. The NRA is a very powerful organization as well. I just don't see any kind of real change happening.

[tonkatoy]

My two cents worth;

Incidents like this are very rare but could happen anywhere, anytime really. There has been much speculation here about how the shooter was able to do what he did. I remember thinking right after 9-11 that America, by its very nature is vulnerable to such attacks. We live in a free and open society, some people would like to disagree, my recommendation would be to travel abroad, we have more civil liberties than any country I can think of. While what happened at V tech was tragic, and i have a connection to the school, half my family went there, I really don't see how the campus security or school administration could have stopped something like this. I went to The Citadel, pre Shannon Fulkner, that is what most schools would have to look like for them to be safe. While we didn't have firearms, well, M-14s with no firing pins, we were armed to the teeth in other respects, but even that would not have stopped somebody who had made up their mind to check out and take others along. Nobody wants to give up their civil liberties, especially since there is no guarantee of safety. Part of the answer is probably more gun control, but even that will not stop things like this from happening. And if guns are limited, what is to stop somebody from building a bomb and blowing up a classroom, or other campus area. I am rambling, so i guess i will gather my thoughts and post tonight.

[suckseed]

At this point I'm feeling pure rage. Reading the stories this morning and getting to the bios of the victims...a 76 year old Holocaust survivor; a shy girl who had recently made some friends...kids from other countries about to graduate...all of this loss and pain.
Okay....you want to place blame? I've got the perfect place: doctors are hamstrung when it comes to treating mental health patients. They cannot force people to take their medications. They can't discuss their patients. Doctor/patient confidentiality and patient rights have been legislated to heavily favor the 'rights of the individual'. In the days to come, I think we'll be reading about the shooter's mental state as evidenced by those writings mentioned today.
Personally, I'm also tired of hearing about people saying things like so and so exhibited disturbed behavior had a fascination with violence, was cruel to animals, etc....and had a gun. "But I never thought he'd...." Well maybe you should have told someone?!!My view on gun control is that it's a privilege, not a right. If someone is acting strangely, their guns should be taken away....it's fucking common sense. It's the old story: with great power comes great responsibility. And as long as we ignore the twin issues of guns and mental health, the body count will be a 'goal' for deranged individuals to beat.

[chefmike]

I just wonder how many times that our chimp-in-chief will manage to insert his favorite word "terrer" into his eulogy at VT this afternoon. :roll:

[LG]

Saw it on the news last night. So depressing. I don't know what to make of it.

why do things like this keep happenning? How did the gunman manage to wander from one part of campus to another over those two hours and not get caught or stopped? Is it possibly to have campus cops everywhere?

Is it lack of gun control or are Americans more violent? Why does this kind of thing keep happening in the US?

[chefmike]

I've been watching the convocation at VT, and it's still kind of surreal to me, I think that they're holding the gathering at the same coliseum that I used to watch VT BBall games in.

It's pretty moving stuff to me, and I must say that even monkeyboy's eulogy was respectable.

[suckseed]

What did I find today but a Va Tech T-shirt that belongs to my brother in law. He studied architecture there. It's strange how quickly normal life can change. One day after Christmas when I was 14, my dad died in his sleep...suddenly I had no father. It's the same feeling of unreality now.

[chefmike]

The best link for the breaking developments, and it's not a half-bad newspaper, IMO-

http://www.roanoke.com/wb/xp-index

[Kabuki]

By RUSSELL GOLDMAN

April 17, 2007 — Cho Seung-hui, 23, the Virginia Tech student who police believe is responsible for killing 33 people yesterday, was "a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," said university spokesman Larry Hincker.

Police identified Cho, a native of South Korea and resident alien who lived in Centreville, Va., as the shooter by linking the fingerprints at the scene to his immigration documents.

Police say the senior English major, who lived in Harper Hall dormitory on the university campus, was likely responsible for both shootings at the university, the first of which took place at around 7:15 a.m. Monday morning when two people were killed at West Ambler Johnston Hall dormitory. Later that morning, the remaining victims were killed in Norris Hall, the engineering studies building.

ABC News has learned that Cho left behind a note after the killings at West Ambler Johnston Hall. He then returned to his own room, rearmed and entered Norris Hall, roughly a half a mile away, to continue his shooting rampage.

Cho came to the United States with his family in 1992 at age 8 and first settled in Detroit, according to State Department officials. He last renewed his green card in 2003.

According to the Washington Post, his parents live in Fairfax County, Va., an affluent Washington suburb, just outside of Alexandria, Va. He is a graduate of Westfield High School in Fairfax.

Legal permanent resident aliens may purchase firearms in the state of Virginia. A resident alien must, however, provide additional identification to prove he or she is a resident of the state.

[chefmike]

First-aid training pays off:

A former eagle-scout wrapped electrical cable around his leg when he realized that he was bleeding to death, 3 centimeters of his femoral artery had been blown out, and it appears that he managed to save his leg. I certainly hope so...

[Linda]

I choose not to be a sitting duck. I am from a law enforcment back ground. We can not be every where all the time. I am saying that law abiding citizens who pass for a carry permit should be allowed to protect themselves. Read the article I posted earlier carefully two school shootings were stopped by citizens carriing guns. Say they did have them on their sides. You would at least know what to watch. States that have passsed concealed carry permits have lowered all crime, not like other places who have only lowered gun crime, and had other crime rise. THe only one on the campus that had a weapon was the killer. Sitting ducks. Washington had gun control no effect for twenty years did no good. The Virginia Tech outlawed guns no help to stop crime. The law abiding citizens abid by the law. Criminals break the law. A gun control law means nothing to the criminals.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

Media is making this out to be a circus [as the media always does]

I agree with the other repliers about other post made about this same thing, just reply to this post, no need for multiples...........

seems they were warned about him 2 years ago by a professor

they also just had his roommate on CNN, who admitted seeing some of the weird things he was doing but not reporting it like he should have
i don't know, that might have saved his life

[Legend]

Media is making this out to be a circus [as the media always does]

I agree with the other repliers about other post made about this same thing, just reply to this post, no need for multiples...........

seems they were warned about him 2 years ago by a professor

they also just had his roommate on CNN, who admitted seeing some of the weird things he was doing but not reporting it like he should have
i don't know, that might have saved his life

Yeah the media is everywhere down,let the people mourn without sticking a damn camera in there face.

[Linda]

I just watched a story on the news. A teacher and other classmates in English classes had talked to authorities saying that this killer was a problem. the teacher had talked to administrators about him. No one would do anything. She was worried about the violent nature of the killers writings, but "none of it was an out right threat," as the administrators told the teacher. Classmates had been worried about this person. My God what do you need. I know as someone with the back ground I have yes the law says a specific threat, but other things could have been done. I mean at least talk with the person, his family something.

[Coroner]

Very, very sad.... what else shall I say? Once again such act..... and I´m sure the are more to come. Now, everyone´s sick about that guy.... was he a member of an occult group? Was he on drugs? Did he play Counter Strike? Uhhh.... was he listening to Marilyn Manson? Was he a demon himself?

Everybody ignores the obvious. He was not born to do this, something made him sick to do this. And what was it? The society and in this case, his society. He was talking about "children of rich parents" and ignorant people in his letter..... I feel with all of you, especially with the family and friends of the victims but don´t forget that nobody´s of gold and he´s not the only one to blame. The students make me sick, too, here where I live but I don´t mind to take a gun. SO, can you please tell me what the hell i going on in America?

[hentai_ninja]

At school when we were watching the news about what happened,whenever the reporter talked about the guys name or ethnicity,I got some pretty nasty glances. This certainly sucks.

[InHouston]

I was up most of the night, so I just woke up and found out about this...America and guns, what is it with us, people?

Guns don't kill. People kill.

[InHouston]

Media is making this out to be a circus [as the media always does]

I agree with the other repliers about other post made about this same thing, just reply to this post, no need for multiples...........

seems they were warned about him 2 years ago by a professor

they also just had his roommate on CNN, who admitted seeing some of the weird things he was doing but not reporting it like he should have
i don't know, that might have saved his life

Yes they are. They're already pointing fingers and placing blame on the university administration for the second shooting.

[ottorocket]

my own personal feeling on this whole incident goes to one thing that has shifted in our culture, and that is the use of psychotropic medicine to deal with our childrens pain and mental problems instead of traditional methods. IMO the use of Ritalin, and other non-prescribed drugs are a leading contributor to the behaviors we are seeing as this recent trend of school shootings takes on new levels of violence.

http://www.holology.com/shooting.html

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

my own personal feeling on this whole incident goes to one thing that has shifted in our culture, and that is the use of psychotropic medicine to deal with our childrens pain and mental problems instead of traditional methods. IMO the use of Ritalin, and other non-prescribed drugs are a leading contributor to the behaviors we are seeing as this recent trend of school shootings takes on new levels of violence.

http://www.holology.com/shooting.html

this kid as stated by one of his professors didn't seek attention from any medical field, no counseling at all, so i doubt he was ever on medication

mentally ill seniors in college though, an interesting concept

[mustang]

my own personal feeling on this whole incident goes to one thing that has shifted in our culture, and that is the use of psychotropic medicine to deal with our childrens pain and mental problems instead of traditional methods. IMO the use of Ritalin, and other non-prescribed drugs are a leading contributor to the behaviors we are seeing as this recent trend of school shootings takes on new levels of violence.

http://www.holology.com/shooting.html

this kid as stated by one of his professors didn't seek attention from any medical field, no counseling at all, so i doubt he was ever on medication

mentally ill seniors in college though, an interesting concept

The papers said that he was on anti-depressants......I don't know what to believe!

[trish]

i know many people fault the university and the police for not notifying the campus community of the earlier murders. however, those murders had the earmarks of a personal dispute with a tragic end, it did not seem to indicate that further madness was about to be unleashed. moreover the police were already interviewing a suspect for those two murders. i don't see how the university or the police could have been expected to anticipate the later violence that occurred.

on the other hand i do think legislators who support and pass laws that allow citizens to carry concealed weapons are responsible for the violence that occurs when an ordinary citizen licensed to carry a concealed weapon goes nuts and kills innocent people. legislators are responsible because statistically such behavior is predictable. i know some will say that if everyone carried weapons, one lone gunman couldn't kill as many people. however, if every carried guns, there will be many more lone gunman. guns for hunting, guns for sport are fine. but automatic and semi-automatic are not sporting; and citizen carrying concealed weapons is just a stupid idea. people kill people, sure...but guns make people the most efficient killers on the planet.

my heart goes out to all of you with loved one affected by this tragedy.

[spooker609]

I choose not to be a sitting duck. I am from a law enforcment back ground. We can not be every where all the time. I am saying that law abiding citizens who pass for a carry permit should be allowed to protect themselves. Read the article I posted earlier carefully two school shootings were stopped by citizens carriing guns. Say they did have them on their sides. You would at least know what to watch. States that have passsed concealed carry permits have lowered all crime, not like other places who have only lowered gun crime, and had other crime rise. THe only one on the campus that had a weapon was the killer. Sitting ducks. Washington had gun control no effect for twenty years did no good. The Virginia Tech outlawed guns no help to stop crime. The law abiding citizens abid by the law. Criminals break the law. A gun control law means nothing to the criminals.

+1
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!
There are tons of cocaine, heroin and marijuana and thousands of people smuggled into this country every year, if guns are outlawed it will just give the criminals another product to add to their black market. We need crime control, and a secure border and sane enforcement of the laws already on the books. It would have only taken one legaly armed citizen to stop this individual, and if he hadn't gotten ahold of a gun
he might have say... blown up the chemistry building.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!
There are tons of cocaine, heroin and marijuana and thousands of people smuggled into this country every year, if guns are outlawed it will just give the criminals another product to add to their black market. We need crime control, and a secure border and sane enforcement of the laws already on the books. It would have only taken one legaly armed citizen to stop this individual, and if he hadn't gotten ahold of a gun
he might have say... blown up the chemistry building.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guns will NEVER BE OUTLAWED in this country....................

remember this asshole?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Colin-Ferguson-mugshot.jpg

this sick fucker had me worried to death because my father used to take the LIRR home from work on occassion, luckily for me he drove that day, but Ferguson like this kid, took out his anger by pulling the trigger on innocents..............

The most that will happen is a brief minimal changing of the way guns are sold, i.e. a longer waiting period and a background check, and even that is a stretch...........

What no one has spoken on is any sorrow for the family of this kid, which is fair. He's basically put them in a position where they will have to fear for their lives in a gun toting state, a place that [quiet town or not] will be judgmental on the parents and their cleaning business. They will most likely have to move and give up their business and start from scratch elsewhere, his selfish ass didn't think about them, or his sister a Princeton student, who will probably get evil looks like the ones hentai ninja received yesterday.................

[chefmike]

On NBC now...killer mailed package to NBC in between the two shootings, a video and documents...

[chefmike]

The killer could have actually walked to either of two nearby post offices from the campus, in order to mail said package...and still returned in time to commit the atrocities that he will go down in history for...and it certainly appears that was his intention.

[chefmike]

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/breaking/wb/113294

[suckseed]

And yet....there are no background checks of mental health when you buy a gun....wait, that would impinge on the rights of the individual.
Human beings are fucking stupid. Spend billions on prisons instead of the roots of crime, poverty and lack of education. Subsidize big agriculture and oil instead of improving the lives of small farmers and alternate energy sources. Spend trillions on defense instead of working at the causes of conflicts through cooperation. Keep buying those gated communities...oh, but you gotta send your family out into the war zone eventually....

Thanks, experts! :claps

Out of curiosity....I wonder what the sum total of the world's wealth divided up equally would work out to be? Doesn't something like 3% own 90% or something?
Ah well...I'm gonna watch the new Cribs marathon and order a pizza....God bless the USA....

[chefmike]

This guy should have obviously been locked down in a psych ward indefinitely, and heavily sedated with anti-psychotic meds.

Granted, his doctors may have never been able to help this psycho, but keeping people this disturbed away from the populace might have helped prevent this tragedy from ever happening.

[Quinn]

This guy should have obviously been locked down in a psych ward indefinitely, and heavily sedated with anti-psychotic meds.

Granted, his doctors may have never been able to help this psycho, but keeping people this disturbed away from the populace might have helped prevent this tragedy from ever happening.

I agree. The amount of blatantly obvious indicators coming to light is simply overwhelming. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Quinn

[chefmike]

And what's even more disturbing, all of his suitemates/classmates etc. have described Cho as never smiling, or returning their greetings, etc.

Yet in this video manifesto of Cho's, there are pics of him grinning like the proverbial Cheshire cat...

[chefmike]

Pardon me if I'm being corny, or better yet, don't...

There are many stories of the kind of heroism that continue to define our great, yet troubled, nation coming from the VT campus.

Like the story of a VT professor, who was also a holocaust survivor, he took a bullet to save his student's lives...

[Coroner]

With all respect, Quinn and chef but I am a wee bit dissapointed about your comments.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

watching CNN right now, and it's going to be interesting how many folks call in students that show signs that they think are a bit off in the next few weeks

[Quinn]

With all respect, Quinn and chef but I am a wee bit dissapointed about your comments.

Um......Ok. Care to be more specific? Thanks.

-Quinn

[chefmike]

With all respect, Quinn and chef but I am a wee bit dissapointed about your comments.Why?

With all due respect, Coroner.... I just got a call from my little sister, she arrived in BBurg for the candlelight vigil last night. Are you there? I didn't think so.

I didn't start this topic to argue with anyone, but if someone wants to indulge you, then fine...but it won't be me. Not tonight, anyway. And BTW, my youngest niece will be attending VT next year. Anyone of those kids could have been her, or my little sister, for that matter. This isn't about fucking politics, Coroner. Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you should STFU for now...

[Quinn]

This guy should have obviously been locked down in a psych ward indefinitely, and heavily sedated with anti-psychotic meds.

Granted, his doctors may have never been able to help this psycho, but keeping people this disturbed away from the populace might have helped prevent this tragedy from ever happening.

I realise that hindsight is 20/20, but the list of problems this kid had is really lengthy and definitely warranted attention. Here are but a few:

1) Teacher and poet Nikki Giovanni – who had called Cho’s writing “weird” and “intimidating”– told The Washington Post that other students were afraid to come to class with him because of his sullen demeanor, and because he was taking photos of other students in class. She tried to talk with Cho, and sought help from her department chair, who tried to talk Cho into going to counseling.
2) Cho’s plays, “Mr. Brownstone and Richard McBeef,”casued concerns on the part of a second professor named Edward Falco as well as his students? Read them and you’ll understand. The second professor also brought the problem to the attention of his superiors and worked to get Cho out of the classroom setting.
3) Cho had stalked and harassed multiple female students, coming to the attention of law enforcement repeatedly.
4) Cho had an imaginary supermodel girlfriend.
5) Cho had a consuming obsession with firearms.

There are plenty more, but frankly I don’t feel like typing them all. Besides, you get the point.

-Quinn

[demmie]

Reminds me of a little High School called "Columbine".

[wendy48088]

Schools need to teach students to be aggressive

Security analyst tells TODAY how schools should prepare for attacks
By Mike Celizic
TODAYshow.com contributor

Updated: 12:05 p.m. ET April 18, 2007

Cowering under a desk and waiting for help to come is no longer an option. American schools must teach their students to respond aggressively to attacks by people bent on mayhem.

"I would hope that the administrators and folks that are making the decisions would understand that it’s difficult to negotiate with a bullet," security consultant Allen Hill told TODAY. "A person that comes into your facility with a gun intends to kill and do you harm."

The founder of Response Options, a Texas-based security company, said, "Get past this paralysis of fear over liability issues. Our country is so litigious and concerned about doing the wrong thing and about doing the politically correct thing that we don’t do anything."

That only helps people like Cho Seung Hui. "The bad guys are counting on Americans to sit still and do nothing," Hill said.

Students and others need to realize that they do have options, Hill said.

The "bad guys" plan their attacks. Schools need to plan and rehearse their defenses and responses just as aggressively.

"The training should be just as intense and be taken just as seriously as the bad guy takes their mission to kill," he said.

At Virginia Tech, Cho Seung Hui walked into classrooms and simply shot people. There are reports that he even lined up victims to shoot them one by one. But in one Norris Hall classroom, student Zach Petkewicz led his classmates in barricading the door, saving all inside.

Petkewicz’ response was instinctive, prompted by "adrenaline and fear."

Hill’s company teaches acting from knowledge and a well-rehearsed plan.

"Once the bad guy’s inside, how hard is it to hit a non-moving target?" Hill observed.

"Get up and move," he advised. "Do whatever it takes to create chaos and mayhem. Disrupt them. Make them go into a protective mode themselves. We feel that we can become actively aggressive for our own benefit, whether that’s actively running out of the classroom, having to face the gunman and take him down, breaking out windows and escaping that way."

You can’t wait for something to happen and then try to form a response, he said. It’s got to be done in advance.

Security systems are passive, he said. But those under attack can be active.

Said Hill: "There are things that you can do to take the initiative away from the bad guy, to disrupt their plan and to create a situation that’s winnable for you."

© 2007 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18174900/

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[dgtlmstry]

Let's make America a 'sad-free zone'!

04/18/2007 | Ann Coulter

From the attacks of 9-11 to Monday's school shooting, after every mass murder there is an overwhelming urge to "do something" to prevent a similar attack.

But since Adam ate the apple and let evil into the world, deranged individuals have existed.

Most of the time they can't be locked up until it's too late. It's not against the law to be crazy – in some jurisdictions it actually makes you more viable as a candidate for public office.

It's certainly not against the law to be an unsociable loner. If it were, Ralph Nader would be behind bars right now, where he belongs. Mass murder is often the first serious crime unbalanced individuals are caught committing – as appears to be in the case of the Virginia Tech shooter.

The best we can do is enact policies that will reduce the death toll when these acts of carnage occur, as they will in a free and open society of 300 million people, most of whom have cable TV.

Only one policy has ever been shown to deter mass murder: concealed-carry laws. In a comprehensive study of all public, multiple-shooting incidents in America between 1977 and 1999, the inestimable economists John Lott and Bill Landes found that concealed-carry laws were the only laws that had any beneficial effect.

And the effect was not insignificant. States that allowed citizens to carry concealed handguns reduced multiple-shooting attacks by 60 percent and reduced the death and injury from these attacks by nearly 80 percent.

Apparently, even crazy people prefer targets that can't shoot back. The reason schools are consistently popular targets for mass murderers is precisely because of all the idiotic "Gun-Free School Zone" laws.

From the people who brought you "zero tolerance," I present the Gun-Free Zone! Yippee! Problem solved! Bam! Bam! Everybody down! Hey, how did that deranged loner get a gun into this Gun-Free Zone?

It isn't the angst of adolescence. Plenty of school shootings have been committed by adults with absolutely no reason to be at the school, such as Laurie Dann, who shot up the Hubbard Woods Elementary School in Winnetka, Ill., in 1988; Patrick Purdy, who opened fire on children at Cleveland Elementary School in Stockton, Calif., in 1989; and Charles Carl Roberts, who murdered five schoolgirls at an Amish school in Lancaster County, Pa., last year.

Oh, by the way, the other major "Gun-Free Zone" in America is the post office.

But instantly, on the day of the shooting at Virginia Tech, the media were already promoting gun control and pre-emptively denouncing right-wingers who point out that gun control enables murderers rather than stopping them. Liberals get to lobby for gun control, but we're disallowed from arguing back. That's how good their arguments are. They're that good.

Needless to say, Virginia Tech is a Gun-Free School Zone – at least until last Monday. The gunman must not have known. Imagine his embarrassment! Perhaps there should be signs.

Virginia Tech even prohibits students with concealed-carry permits from carrying their guns on campus. Last year, the school disciplined a student for carrying a gun on campus, despite his lawful concealed-carry permit. If only someone like that had been in Norris Hall on Monday, this massacre could have been ended a lot sooner.

But last January, the Virginia General Assembly shot down a bill that would have prevented universities like Virginia Tech from giving sanctuary to mass murderers on college campuses in Virginia by disarming students with concealed-carry permits valid in the rest of the state.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker praised the legislature for allowing the school to disarm lawful gun owners on the faculty and student body, thereby surrendering every college campus in the state to deranged mass murderers, saying: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Others disagreed. Writing last year about another dangerous killer who had been loose on the Virginia Tech campus, graduate student Jonathan McGlumphy wrote: "Is it not obvious that all students, faculty and staff would have been safer if (concealed handgun permit) holders were not banned from carrying their weapons on campus?"

If it wasn't obvious then, it is now.

I gave you, and that thing Anne Coulter, the benefit of the doubt and read through the article. However I do still have to say that this ultra radical conservative should be the last person offering solutions on how to deal with "crazy people" Let's arm everyone...that's it? That is the answer? It's no wonder things are the way they are back there...too few people want to face the truth and do something about it. It's tough, I know, but ignoring it and trying to take the easy way out will not work. (Easy way out = arm everyone) Go ahead, try it....you'll have guns blazing everywhere. It SHOULD be common sense that the way to stop gun violence (or any violence for that matter) is not by giving more people guns. And before you think I am some liberal anti-gun activist....I'm not. I do have a concealed-carry permit, and do own my own hand gun. (Back there that is)

The American consciousness is one of a psychotic, paranoid-schizophrenic, once you come to terms with that, then you can start to make more clear headed decisions.

[SarahG]

http://www.slate.com/id/2164510


Low TechThank God the Blacksburg killer only had guns.
By William Saletan
Posted Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 10:38 PM ET

"Deadliest Shooting in U.S. History," said the Washington Post. "Deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history," agreed the Chicago Tribune. "Deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history," echoed the Los Angeles Times.

What happened at Virginia Tech was indeed our deadliest shooting. But the key word isn't "deadliest." It's "shooting."

Monday's death toll was 32. How does that compare to the worst mass murders of U.S. civilians? Not even close. On Dec. 21, 1988, plastic explosives killed 270 people on Pan Am Flight 103. On April 19, 1995, a truck loaded with ammonium nitrate killed 168 in Oklahoma City. On Sept. 11, 2001, hijacked planes killed nearly 3,000 in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

In short, every six and a half years, give or take a couple of months, Americans get massacred. The difference this time is that the body count is so much lower. Why? Because the weapons were just guns.

I'm not saying guns are harmless. A few years ago, while walking to work, I had a traffic altercation that ended with a driver getting out of her car and shouting, "You're lucky I don't have a gun!" I'm glad she didn't. I wish Cho Seung-Hui hadn't had one, either.

But it was just a gun. Each time Cho wanted to kill somebody, he had to squeeze the trigger. There was time for horror, but also for mobilization. That's why the students in Room 207 had time to block the door. Hell, Cho had plenty of time between shootings to go to the post office and mail his ramblings to NBC.

Today everyone's asking why administrators didn't lock down the campus after the first two deaths. I'm sure that'll happen the next time somebody gets shot at a university. But maybe next time we won't be so lucky. Maybe the killer won't use a weapon that requires him to walk across campus to get from the first two victims to the next 30. Maybe he'll do what killers already do in Iraq: take out scores of people in one blast.

Do you know how many people got blown up in Baghdad today? More than 170. A single bomb killed 140 of them. This happened at the same market where a bomb had killed more than 125 people two months ago. That's four times the body count at Virginia Tech, in a flash. Do you think it can't happen here? Do you think the people who smuggled a bomb into Iraq's parliament building, through multiple screenings by U.S. and Iraqi forces, can't penetrate our security at home?

No wonder Iraqis find the outcry over Virginia Tech puzzling. Scores of them die every week, while many of us hardly notice. Our gun debate makes little sense to them. In today's Post, a Baghdad traffic cop, when asked about the Virginia Tech tragedy, opines, "America has terrorism and they are exporting it to us. We did not have this violence in the Saddam era because the law was so tough on guns."

Well, no. When you can wipe out thousands of Kurds in a chemical weapons attack, people are understandably reluctant to wave a .22 at you. Saddam even faked a nuclear arsenal, at fatal cost to himself, to intimidate his enemies. If you really want to teach people a lesson, you don't shoot them one at a time. You slaughter them in droves. That's the 21st-century terrorist style: 200 dead in the Bali car bombings five years ago. Another 190 in the Madrid bombings of 2004. Another 200 in the Mumbai bombings last year.

When you look at the gun debate from this angle, two things stand out. One is that we should spend our time and money trying to stop bombs, not guns. Lots of schools have a whack job like Cho. For every one of those guys, there are a dozen students ready, if he commits a heinous crime, to say they saw it coming. But the crime almost never happens. If we'd kept guns away from Cho, the Columbine kids, and the University of Texas sniper, we'd have saved about 60 lives. Compare that to a radioactive bomb in one of the 20,000 uninspected cargo containers that enter our country every day.

I see you Second Amendment enthusiasts nodding. Keep nodding, because the next point is just as important: It's time to stop thinking of rapid-fire weapons and high-capacity magazines as part of the gun world. They're part of the bomb world, because they give guns the sudden, mass killing power of bombs. Virginia Tech's football stadium seats 65,000 people. Imagine Cho in that stadium with a gun that sprays 15 rounds per second.

Do you know what happened in Baghdad after today's bombing? According to the New York Times, "As rescuers thronged the site, a sniper opened fire on the crowd, killing at least one person and wounding two others." A single fatality. I feel awful for that victim. I feel even worse for the other 139.

[chefmike]

wendy48088, how very enlightened of you to share Ann Coulter's thoughts on this tragedy with us. Will you also be quoting Rush Limbaugh's opinions on the matter?

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[Baron Of Hell]

I really don't like Ann Coulter though I do think she is cute. On this point I happen to agree with her. There is 0 chance of getting rid of all guns in America. Our current laws don't really protect us from people that want to use guns. Some of the policy should really be looked at to see if they really make sense

[Tara Emory]

Oh Jesus Fucking Christ

Guns don't kills people - Gun enthusiasts kill people!!.. I wrote a big post on the "Politics and Religion" section on HA.. I don't feel like repeating it all here.

Suffice to say that argueing gun control with a concealed weapon suporter already puts someone like me (a gun control advocate) at a disadvantage, because the person I am argueing with is PACKING HEAT. I don't care if you're sane. I don't care if you say that you know that there are consequenses for actually shooting someone with that gun you're carrying into i don't know.. a day care center or K-Mart or something.

And okay.. so you got your gun lawfully, and you proved you're sane and responsible enough to own it. It doesn't mean you can't go nuts later on in life. Just becuase someone doesn't have a criminal record doesn't mean that they aren't going to start one with thier gun.

Arming the students of a college campus is the must dumfuckass idea I've ever heard. I can just imagine a campus where the teacher would have to second guess giving a student an "F" if maybe he was packing heat.

-Tara

[Felicia Katt]

Ignoring that she is a transexual herself, quoting Ann Coulter on here is like bringing a copy of Mein Kampf to a Bar Mitzvah.

FK

[Jonny29]

they still give out F's in college? I thought that was only a rumor.

[Mugai_hentaisha]

And okay.. so you got your gun lawfully, and you proved you're sane and responsible enough to own it. It doesn't mean you can't go nuts later on in life. Just becuase someone doesn't have a criminal record doesn't mean that they aren't going to start one with thier gun.


Tara you know I love you but this is one issue where we disagree

By your arguement if I am allowed to condense it down is basically we shouldn't be given the right to bear arms due to the fact we may go "war whacky" at a later date....ok....then if you get that rule then I want the ownership of cars by people who have either a family history of Alcohol abuse, or just has a beer once in their life based on they may drink and drive at a later date. Hell might as well ban all vehicles due to someone may take a drink at a point in their lives and drive later.

How about alcohol itself hell someone might get drunk and hurt someone.

that whole arguement to me is pure bunk. I respect people's rights to either have them legally or not to have them at all.

I do not believe in illegally purchasing weapons of any sort. I also support people having to go through a process to own a weapon. Much the same way people have to go through a process to drive a car. But plain and simple I do not support a ban on weapons because if that day ever comes...with the people we put in office.....we will simply cease to be citizens of the great experiment that is USA and become subjects to the dictatorship that will follow...



Arming the students of a college campus is the must dumfuckass idea I've ever heard. I can just imagine a campus where the teacher would have to second guess giving a student an "F" if maybe he was packing heat.

Yeah that is a pretty dumb Idea....any kneejerk reaction is....Think people Think

Btw Tara loved the Bad Habit pics......I just love naughty pics of Nuns...yummy...and your's were very naughty

[houstonshemalefan]

I was up most of the night, so I just woke up and found out about this...America and guns, what is it with us, people?

Way to go chefmike, way to turn this tragedy into a political statement. Only took you two posts to do so this time!

[SarahG]

I was up most of the night, so I just woke up and found out about this...America and guns, what is it with us, people?

Way to go chefmike, way to turn this tragedy into a political statement. Only took you two posts to do so this time!

Everything like this has political ramifications... you can try to deny it or avoid it as much as you want but everytime anything like this happens, it is going to have lasting effects in terms of legeslation, lawsuits, theories and other such things.

At least this time the media doesn't seem to be blaming Doom 2 for the shooting. :roll:

[Realgirls4me]

I'm not about to get immersed into this discussion, so label me what you will with this drive-by post, but the last thing this country needs is more fuel to the fire. More guns??? Are some of you shitting me?! Where does the insanity stop? The barn door has been open for a long time on the availability of guns in this country, hence it will be impossible to ever get this country's gun restriction laws in alignment with every other civilized industrialized country in curbing its thirst/taste for guns, but more fuckin' guns is definitely not the answer. The numbers of kids that die to gun violence in this country should be enough to wake one up that more guns is NOT the answer. I don't know what measures this country can take at this point, but turning it into one giant spagetti western isn't it.

...A few years out of high school, I had counted about 10 kids I had known who had died to gun violence. [rhetorical] How many of you who are advocating a more armed citizenry have seen a young man's brains strewn out on an asphalt street? I guess one has to see and feel the results firsthand to feel as I do.


And quoting Ann Coulter? ANN COULTER ??? I don't know if one can find a spokesperson with less credibility on ANY issue than Ann Coulter.


That's my rant for the day. I'm through!

[Legend]

I was up most of the night, so I just woke up and found out about this...America and guns, what is it with us, people?

Way to go chefmike, way to turn this tragedy into a political statement. Only took you two posts to do so this time!

so you people are suppose to ignore the fact it took that idiot 10 minutes(you wait on dry cleaning longer then that) to buy those gun or the mentally ill can buy them without any form of checkup,his statement or question is valid,america and its right to bare arms policies should be questioned so something can prevent this from ever happening again.

[SarahG]

If some crazy kid really wants to kill multiple people, gun availbility doesn't do anything to help prevent or encourage the situation.

Outlaw guns and there will still be blackmarket sources... more pricey, sure... but they will be there and the criminals will still have them.

But realistically, this guy could have just gone into a crowded part of the school and blown himself up- killing as many (if not more) people, quicker, and more effectively. Killing multiple people does not require technology designed for that task.

There simply is no reason to believe that this guy 1- wouldn't have been able to get a gun if our gun laws were more strict, 2- wouldn't have been able to conduct the same disaster, with some other method of killing people.

If you wanna talk about prevention... look at all the warning signs this guy had that were either ignored, or went no where. The mental health related treatment, the stalking, etc... had he been more extensively cared for from a mental health field, perhaps things would not have gone this far.

[Tara Emory]

Tara you know I love you but this is one issue where we disagree

By your arguement if I am allowed to condense it down is basically we shouldn't be given the right to bear arms due to the fact we may go "war whacky" at a later date....ok....then if you get that rule then I want the ownership of cars by people who have either a family history of Alcohol abuse, or just has a beer once in their life based on they may drink and drive at a later date. Hell might as well ban all vehicles due to someone may take a drink at a point in their lives and drive later.

How about alcohol itself hell someone might get drunk and hurt someone.

that whole arguement to me is pure bunk. I respect people's rights to either have them legally or not to have them at all.

I do not believe in illegally purchasing weapons of any sort. I also support people having to go through a process to own a weapon. Much the same way people have to go through a process to drive a car. But plain and simple I do not support a ban on weapons because if that day ever comes...with the people we put in office.....we will simply cease to be citizens of the great experiment that is USA and become subjects to the dictatorship that will follow...




Yes, people should jump through hoops to own a gun.. Also, I don't know if there are bigger restrictions on bigger and more destructive guns, I assume there are, but sometimes I wonder. Let's be frank, the 2nd Amendment was written at a time when a gun was either a flint-lock pistol or a musket, which I think anybody has a right to own. I know in my heart that if the founding fathers knew what guns were going to turn into (machine guns, assault rifles, high caliber killing machines), then maybe they would have had some doubts or at least limitations on giving people the right.

I totally reject the notion that taking the guns out of the hands of citizens means that were putting them in the hands of the goverment and that is all leading to a dictatorship. I hear Bill O say that kind of crap, that "the secular progressives want to take your gun and keep it for themselves to subjugate you", which is nonsense. I want to reduce the amount of guns for everyone, including law enforcement. I saw one of these "catch a predator" shows on MSNBC last night and it took place in Florida or some state that had a concealed gun law.. The cops had to be extra brutal and lightning quick arresting these guys because they might have had a gun (legally). And MSNBC wasn't even making a point about or against that, but it gave me the feeling that if I get stopped for speeding in Florida, I might have a cop kill a gun on me first things first, because he can't take the chance that I might be armed. If that's not a sign of the "impending dictatorship" - in this case brought about by too many guns, then I don't know what is.

Everybody should be able to own the sort of guns that can incapacitate someone, not blow their head off in one shot, or take out multiple people.. And there should be limits to how many guns you can own. What one person need a huge arsenal of weapons unless they intend on going into a school or public place and playing real-life Doom?

-Tara

[sucka4chix]

These events that keep occurring at increasing rates have very traceable roots. Everyone is concentrating on the weapons when it is the people that we consistently turn out that are the problem!
We are so caught up in GREED, the number one problem in America. Parents want to work. It's not fashionable to stay at home and raise your own kids--- so you let day care and the state and psychologists do it. We medicate our children because it's easy. The "conditions" that kids have are not new, we've just allowed Pharmaceutical companies to convince us that these new acronyms can only be cured by drugs, that make them rich.
If parents and all adults ( it takes a whole village to raise a child) would take the responsibility to raise our children with discipline and respect, and we'd stop letting these new age psycho babble "take a time out" politically correct pansies tell us what's good for a child, this crap would diminish.
I'm so fuckin' tired of parents not accepting responsibility for their demon seed. These people admitted to knowing their child was troubled, but did nothing! Every parent knows damn well when they have a psychotic kid---if they don't they're a fuckin' sorry assed parent and should be held accountable. Having a kid is serious, and until people realize that raising that child is more important than getting that promotion or a benz OR ANYTHING YOU WANT FOR YOURSELF, these tragedies will continue.
No legislation will ever change this. You have to change people!!!

[SarahG]

Yes, people should jump through hoops to own a gun.. Also, I don't know if there are bigger restrictions on bigger and more destructive guns, I assume there are, but sometimes I wonder. Let's be frank, the 2nd Amendment was written at a time when a gun was either a flint-lock pistol or a musket, which I think anybody has a right to own. I know in my heart that if the founding fathers knew what guns were going to turn into (machine guns, assault rifles, high caliber killing machines), then maybe they would have had some doubts or at least limitations on giving people the right.

I totally reject the notion that taking the guns out of the hands of citizens means that were putting them in the hands of the goverment and that is all leading to a dictatorship. I hear Bill O say that kind of crap, that "the secular progressives want to take your gun and keep it for themselves to subjugate you", which is nonsense. I want to reduce the amount of guns for everyone, including law enforcement. I saw one of these "catch a predator" shows on MSNBC last night and it took place in Florida or some state that had a concealed gun law.. The cops had to be extra brutal and lightning quick arresting these guys because they might have had a gun (legally). And MSNBC wasn't even making a point about or against that, but it gave me the feeling that if I get stopped for speeding in Florida, I might have a cop kill a gun on me first things first, because he can't take the chance that I might be armed. If that's not a sign of the "impending dictatorship" - in this case brought about by too many guns, then I don't know what is.

Everybody should be able to own the sort of guns that can incapacitate someone, not blow their head off in one shot, or take out multiple people.. And there should be limits to how many guns you can own. What one person need a huge arsenal of weapons unless they intend on going into a school or public place and playing real-life Doom?

-Tara

Gun control legislation in states like NY effect far more then the weapons you describe.

The same set of statues pretty much bans all nonlethal weapons- mace, pepper spry, tasers, stun guns... things that are designed to make someone inoperable for a set of time without killing then. Simply put if you live in a state like NY, you have no legal way to defend yourself- and are essentially required to depend on the 911 system & police for protection. Maybe that has a chance of working in a place like NYC but in a rural part of the state (like where my mom lives) where it takes over an hour for the PD to arrive... its going to be significantly too little too late if one of the neighbors decides they want to do you harm.

NY will let you have an antique firearm... however the state defines antique in such a way that makes it so no weapon actually falls under this catagory... to be an antique firearm in that state, it must be so old that ammunition is not and can not be available... and it is possible to arm and use even a flint lock era weapon and thus all laws still apply.

I don't buy the argument that cops are more likely to kill you in states where you can carry a sidearm. My friends in law enforcement mention to me regularly that they must assume everyone is armed and gunning for them- hence why so many areas have laws regulating car window tint (not just ones with carry licenses). Since law enforcement deals with (in addition to law abiding citizens) criminals, it is safe to assume that they will be trigger happy in the name of their safety/protection just about anywhere.. and I don't care if you're in Texas or NYC, if you quickly move your hand behind your back to get your wallet, you're gonna get shot 40 times. Lots of civilians have legitimate reasons to carry a sidearm; PI's, bodyguards etc. NBC can say whatever they want but I highly doubt any cop in any state making an arrest such as the ones on that show, is going to slack off or take it casually.

If you're going to make the case that the constitution was written in an era of a lack of weapon technology, I would point out that any citizen could purchase any weapon- even those the military had- up threw the reconstruction era of history, without regulation involved with the process. If you wanted a mortar, a cannon, artillery piece- all that mattered was rather or not you could afford it. From a federal regulation perspective, there really was no regulation of firearms into well into more recent times... civilian citizen inventors used to fire home designed ordnance into Lake Michigan from the heavily populated Chicago shoreline well into the 1890s. Most of our military technology prior to the world wars was civilian developed and proofed... usually at the government's encouragements.

As to "Everybody should be able to own the sort of guns that can incapacitate someone, not blow their head off in one shot, or take out multiple people.."- anyone trained with weapons, be it police, military or some other profession- is instructed that if a situation requires a firearm, priority one is to take down the threat. People who receive such training are trained to go for the torso and head- not the arms and the legs because it assumes the situation is desperate enough to require such. If the situation does not require that, then it does not require a firearm. If you're using a gun weak to the point of not being able to kill someone with a shot to a head, then all you're going to do is piss off the threat you're trying to put down- which for the person using this weak gun for defense, is a death sentence... especially if the threat has a more realistic firearm (thinking ahead; if someone makes the case that no such firearm should be legal- then that is not going to stop someone who doesn't care about obeying laws... remember how well the prohibition of alcohol went... people only follow the laws they want to follow).[/u]

[SarahG]

These events that keep occurring at increasing rates have very traceable roots. Everyone is concentrating on the weapons when it is the people that we consistently turn out that are the problem!
We are so caught up in GREED, the number one problem in America. Parents want to work. It's not fashionable to stay at home and raise your own kids--- so you let day care and the state and psychologists do it. We medicate our children because it's easy. The "conditions" that kids have are not new, we've just allowed Pharmaceutical companies to convince us that these new acronyms can only be cured by drugs, that make them rich.
If parents and all adults ( it takes a whole village to raise a child) would take the responsibility to raise our children with discipline and respect, and we'd stop letting these new age psycho babble "take a time out" politically correct pansies tell us what's good for a child, this crap would diminish.
I'm so fuckin' tired of parents not accepting responsibility for their demon seed. These people admitted to knowing their child was troubled, but did nothing! Every parent knows damn well when they have a psychotic kid---if they don't they're a fuckin' sorry assed parent and should be held accountable. Having a kid is serious, and until people realize that raising that child is more important than getting that promotion or a benz OR ANYTHING YOU WANT FOR YOURSELF, these tragedies will continue.
No legislation will ever change this. You have to change people!!!

So now it is because both parents work?

I can't say I agree... historically both parents of the lowest classes always worked, as did the kids. The setting might have changed (rural farms where everyone worked to urban centers where everyone worked in factories...). We certainly did not have problems like these among these classes into the past.

Perhaps parenting is part of it, but I don't see both parents working as being the cause.

I don't see how you can fault families for having both parents working in more than the poorest classes today (i.e. the middle and upper classes). It is hardly a fashion statement so much as a quality of life thing. The people lowest in the middle class would probably be in the poor/working classes if they only had one of the parents working.

Maybe there was a time when middle & upper class families needed only one parent working, but by it becoming a mainstream thing, prices have risen because people can afford more (think the law of supply & demand). Thus what you could do with one parent before, now fiscally takes two.

This is only exaggerated by complusitory secondary education. Everyone going for college after K-12 makes the value of such degrees deflate. Now having merely a HS degree is meaningless (and without that, its hard to find work even in min wage hourly professions like fast food). This has also had the effect of raising the cost of college- and the amount of it needed to have an edge. Having both parents work makes it more feasible to send all their kids to college, and that is hardly something that families should be faulted for.

[sucka4chix]

What I'm saying is you cannot put work above raising your child! If you can't make ends meet and spend quality time with your child, then you don't need a child. Day care should not be raising children. The internet shouldn't be raising children. MTV shouldn't be raising children, Video games shouldn't be raising children. We spend so much time and energy providing all the things except what a child needs-- the parent.
Parents don't know what their kids are into because they don't spend enough time with them, Also too many kids are raising parents instead of the other way around.People are scared to give their kids discipline because of all the stupid weak ass lawyers and tree huggers that think everything can be solved with passive nurturing.
The earth is actually a simple place. Once you realize that it is a place of order and rules. Problem is people want to change the rules to fit the way they want to live and it doesn't work. It's just like math--- once you learn how numbers work it's easy--- but you have to follow the rules that have been set along time ago,not make up your own. Once people start raising children they way they are supposed to be raised instead of the way some psychologist who did a subjective study says they should, these problems will go away...But since you people only believe what the next new study says, we're pretty much doomed to repeat this over and over.
I'm to blame to, because I see kids doing stupid shit that they have no business and I just roll my eyes, when I should get involved. A rogue child becomes everybody's problem, as we can see, so maybe next time we see a child acting up and no one doing anything, maybe we should act ourselves. Afterall, I would rather get in a shouting match with a loser parent, than watch 30 plus innocents get killed years later.

[chefmike]

VA Gunman's Family Feels Hopeless, Lost

BLACKSBURG, Va. — The family of Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho told The Associated Press on Friday that they feel "hopeless, helpless and lost," and "never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence."

"He has made the world weep. We are living a nightmare," said a statement issued by Cho's sister, Sun-Kyung Cho, on the family's behalf.

It was the Chos' first public comment since the 23-year-old student killed 32 people and committed suicide Monday in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history.

Raleigh, N.C., lawyer Wade Smith provided the statement to the AP after the Cho family reached out to him. Smith said the family would not answer any questions, and neither would he.


"Our family is so very sorry for my brother's unspeakable actions. It is a terrible tragedy for all of us," said Sun-Kyung Cho, a 2004 Princeton University graduate who works as a contractor for a State Department office that oversees American aid for Iraq.

"We pray for their families and loved ones who are experiencing so much excruciating grief. And we pray for those who were injured and for those whose lives are changed forever because of what they witnessed and experienced," she said. "Each of these people had so much love, talent and gifts to offer, and their lives were cut short by a horrible and senseless act."

Authorities are in frequent contact with Cho's family, but have not placed them in protective custody, said Assistant FBI Director Joe Persichini, who oversees the bureau's local Washington office. Authorities believe they remain in the Washington area, but are staying with friends and relatives.

Persichini said the FBI and Fairfax County Police have assured Cho's parents that they will investigate any hate crimes directed at the family if and when they ever return to their Centreville home.

The family statement was issued during a statewide day of mourning for the victims. Silence fell across the Virginia Tech campus at noon and bells tolled in churches nationwide in memory of the victims.

"We are humbled by this darkness. We feel hopeless, helpless and lost. This is someone that I grew up with and loved. Now I feel like I didn't know this person," Cho's sister said. "We have always been a close, peaceful and loving family. My brother was quiet and reserved, yet struggled to fit in. We never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence."

She said her family will cooperate fully and "do whatever we can to help authorities understand why these senseless acts happened. We have many unanswered questions as well."

Wendy Adams, whose niece, Leslie Sherman, was killed in the massacre, said of the family's statement: "I'm not so generous to be able to forgive him for what he did. But I do feel for the family. I do feel sorry for them."

"I do believe they're living a nightmare," she added.

Robert Jeffers of Idaho Falls, Idaho, a friend of slain 25-year-old student Brian Bluhm, said: "I hope people can see that the right action to take from all of this is love, not hate."

"Based on this sorrowful statement, it is apparent that the family grieves with everyone in the world," Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker said.

Cho's name was given as "Cho Seung-Hui" by police and school officials earlier this week. But the the South Korean immigrant family said their preference was "Seung-Hui Cho." Many Asian immigrant families Americanize their names by reversing them and putting their surnames last.

While Cho clearly was seething and had been taken to a psychiatric hospital more than a year ago as a threat to himself, investigators are still trying to establish exactly what set him off, why he chose a dormitory and a classroom building for the rampage and how he selected his victims.

"The why and the how are the crux of the investigation," Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said. "The why may never be determined because the person responsible is deceased."

During the campus memorial, hundreds of somber students and area residents, most wearing the school's maroon and orange, stood with heads bowed on the parade ground in front of Norris Hall, the classrooom building where all but two of the victims died. Along with the bouquets and candles was a sign reading, "Never forgotten."

"It's good to feel the love of people around you," said Alice Lo, a Virginia Tech graduate and friend of Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, a French instructor killed in the rampage. "With this evil, there is still goodness."

The mourners gathered in front of stone memorials, each adorned with a basket of tulips and an American flag. There were 33 stones _ one for each victim and Cho.

"His family is suffering just as much as the other families," said Elizabeth Lineberry, who will be a freshman at Virginia Tech in the fall.

In a city park in Frederick, Md., student Claire Moblard rang a 3,400-pound bell once for each of the slain. Ohio Gov. Ted Strickland asked state residents to observe a moment of silence. And in Baltimore, Mayor Sheila Dixon and about 100 city employees paused silently at City Hall while bells tolled at Zion Lutheran Church and the Baltimore Basilica.

Near Richmond, Va., a dozen Tech alumni gathered at dawn at an intersection, waving school flags and banners and holding signs asking motorists to honk. The blare of car horns was deafening, and some drivers lowered their windows and raised their arms in a thumbs-up or V-for-victory salute.

President Bush wore an orange and maroon tie in a show of support. The White House said he also asked top officials at the Justice, Health and Human Services and Education Departments to travel the country, talk to educators, mental health experts and others and compile a report on how to prevent similar tragedies.

Seven people hurt in the rampage remained hospitalized, at least one in serious condition.

[mustang]

Guns or no guns.......Crazy bastards will always find a way to take out a bunch of people. If this guy didn't kill 32 people because he didn't have a gun.....he would have chopped up a bunch of women and put them in his freezer. The problem was that the PC people that knew him were too afraid to blow the whistle on his behaviour leading up to the killings. Had someone turned his crazy ass in there would'nt have been a massacre. Things like this always went wrong way before the actual events.

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[chefmike]

Two interesting articles on the mental-health aspects of the mass-murder that occurred at VT:

The Real "Mental Health Lessons" from Virginia Tech
Dr. Peter Breggin

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/the-real-mental-health-l_b_46327.html

Virginia Tech Aftermath: Did Legal Drugs Play a Role in the Massacre?
Arianna Huffington

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/virginia-tech-aftermath-_b_46280.html

[chefmike]

I just got off of the phone with my youngest sister, who attended VT, as did her husband. I used to tease her quite a bit about her preppie sorority.

Anyway, she has remained in town since the candlelight vigil, grieving and talking with old friends who are also in the area. She attended a funeral service today, and of course the press were across the street, and are still all over the campus and town. I gather that the community is getting pretty pissed off at the huge media presence in the town, not to mention the release of Cho's insane manifesto so quickly. I can't say that I blame the town for not wanting the press there anymore, nor can I blame the press corps for doing what their bosses are telling them to do.


But her description of the scene in what passes for downtown in Blacksburg, which is next to the campus, was friggin bizarre...

A man who looked like a biker, who had JESUS tattooed across the back of his shaved head, he was dragging a 10 or 12 foot wooden cross emblazoned with 'Jesus Saves' around the campus and town...I suspect that we will be seeing him on the news later.

And to add an even more bizarre touch, my sister counted at least 7 scientologists in town, recruiting for their tax-exempt cult. She said that they were wearing yellow t-shirts that said 'minister' on it's back, and something like 'scientology ministry volunteer' on it's front...who knows, maybe Cruise will even venture out of his closet for this one...

[chefmike]

I had meant to post the closing remarks given by VT professor and poet Nikki Giovanni at the convocation earlier in this thread, but it's been a very long and disturbing week for me...

I am posting them now, so you may read them if you wish:

Professor Nikki Giovanni speaks
at Convocation, April 17, 2007.


We are Virginia Tech.

We are sad today, and we will be sad for quite a while. We are not moving on, we are embracing our mourning.

We are Virginia Tech.

We are strong enough to stand tall tearlessly, we are brave enough to bend to cry, and we are sad enough to know that we must laugh again.

We are Virginia Tech.

We do not understand this tragedy. We know we did nothing to deserve it, but neither does a child in Africa dying of AIDS, neither do the invisible children walking the night away to avoid being captured by the rogue army, neither does the baby elephant watching his community being devastated for ivory, neither does the Mexican child looking for fresh water, neither does the Appalachian infant killed in the middle of the night in his crib in the home his father built with his own hands being run over by a boulder because the land was destabilized. No one deserves a tragedy.

We are Virginia Tech.

The Hokie Nation embraces our own and reaches out with open heart and hands to those who offer their hearts and minds. We are strong, and brave, and innocent, and unafraid. We are better than we think and not quite what we want to be. We are alive to the imaginations and the possibilities. We will continue to invent the future through our blood and tears and through all our sadness.

We are the Hokies.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We will prevail.

We are Virginia Tech.

[dunkiex]

From this 'HOO to all you Hokies...my thoughts are with you. Friday, for the first time in my life, I not only touched Hokie colors, I wore them, with pride. As a child of the '60s, I think we need to go back and take SOME of the beliefs...make love not war...and as the cover of one book says, "peace in every step". We have lost touch with each other. Children no longer receive the socialization that parents used to teach. Now, adults and children lack manners, empathy, and concern for society. Everyone basically cares about themselves and fuck everyone else. It is in the way we drive, talk, and work. There are just clusters of people that continue to believe in peace, love, and caring for their fellow humans. We are not the Americans, Chinese, Koreans, or any other nation...we are humans....members of this planet. Let's act that way!

oh
peace out!

[chefmike]

Thanks for your sentiments, Wahoo. I've always loved those beautiful Carolina blue skies, as did my father. Not to mention the fact that both NC, and SC BBQ are the best in the world...

[chefmike]

We Are Getting Tired of Prying Your Guns out of Your Cold Dead Hand...
Elayne Boosler

If 33 people were killed by apples instead of guns at Virginia Tech, there wouldn't be an apple left on the shelves or in the homes of this country until apples could be made safe. Screw your "constitutional right" to have an apple, there is something called the "greater good", and the good of the country takes precedence over your "interpretation" of any amendment in the now defunct anyway constitution. Just ask the spinach growers, and the people who love to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. And why do you always forget the words, "well regulated militia"?

2500 Children Left Behind

If 2500 children under the age of 17 were felled by apples instead of guns every year in America, there wouldn't be a congressman or senator left serving who took one penny from the National Apple Association. The shame and admonishment would be too great. And if there were even incremental steps to take to make apples safer, and even they were fought tooth and nail by your blood money National Apple Association, claiming the straw man of the "slippery slope" to "regulation", America might better see you for the mercenary and shameful organization you truly are.

We are getting tired of prying your guns out of your cold dead hands.

Here's a news flash for you gun waving "real Americans": It's not about guns. It's about money. Follow the money. The NRA raises hundreds of millions of dollars by convincing you they are fighting for your "rights". Wake up. It's a business. Just like any other business, except with the help of their bought off representatives, they are the only UNREGULATED consumer product in America. What do they sell? FEAR. Fear, fake patriotism, and fake bravado, just like their commander in chief, President Custer. You're being played.

With their hundreds of millions of dollars raised on the blood of murdered Americans, they pay themselves, they keep their product manufacturers flush, and they buy their government officials. They exist to convince you you need their product. And when sales slow, they target new markets. They market fear to women, then sell them "feminine little purse guns". They market to children. The cartoon character Joe Camel is banned, but sure shootin' Eddie Eagle is alive and well to shit again on Friday. (He teaches children "gun safety", meaning, he teaches children to use guns.)

We're Number One!!

The number of children under the age of 17 shot by guns in America every year is greater than the gun-related deaths of children in all the industrialized nations of the world COMBINED.

Here is the population of Japan: 127,463,611.

Here is the number of children killed by guns in Japan every year: 0.

A 2001 Centers for Disease Control (CDC) study found that in homicides among intimate partners, women are murdered more with guns than with all other means COMBINED.

In 2004, guns were most commonly used by males to murder their female partners.

A 2003 study found women living with a gun in the home were almost three times more likely to be murdered than women with no gun in the home.

"If we ban handguns only criminals will have guns." Well then let's not have any laws in America at all. No drug laws, no traffic laws, no laws at all, right? Duh.

"Cars kill people!!" Yes, cars kill people when something goes wrong. Guns are MADE to kill people. Handguns have one purpose, to kill people.

Stage Rule: If There is a Gun on the Wall in Act I, It Will Go Off in Act II.

Bush's Unmitigated Gall

I watched President Custer speak at the Virginia Tech memorial yesterday. How dare he "express condolences". How DARE he. Here is how his administration helped kill 33 people at Virginia Tech:

Passage of gun industry immunity bill. That's right, you can sue every industry in America, except gun manufacturers and dealers. Your family gets murdered by a madman? Tough.

Refusal to aid in renewal of federal assault weapons ban, even though the law had already been eviscerated by the gun industry. Get it? INDUSTRY.

Fighting background checks. The Virginia shooter had been committed to a mental institution. In Virginia that means you can't buy a gun. Oh yeah? Thank goodness the gun shop owner who sold it to him can't be sued.

The president does not support the police when citizens can have assault weapons.

The president does not support the police when citizens can have armor piercing bullets.

The president helps the terrorists when anyone can have a shoulder rocket launcher that can take a plane out of the sky. And I'm taking my shoes off at the airport?

The president helps the terrorists when he supports a ban on release of federal crime tracing data necessary to identify patterns in illegal gun trafficking.

The president helps the terrorists when he requires the ATF to immediately destroy gun sales records previously allowed to be kept for 90 days under Brady Bill background check.

We Found the WMD. They Are Here.


Guns are for cowards. You can kill from a distance. You are detached, removed. You don't get your hands dirty. You don't feel the life draining out of another human being in an eye to eye struggle, face to face, with your hands squeezing or beating soft, human, flesh, one on one. We had just as many disturbed, sick citizens in America in the last century as we do in this. The difference now is access to weapons of mass destruction. Anyone can have a gun. Anyone. It did not used to be like this. It's easy to kill now.

The Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight

"Two Secret Service officers were injured yesterday after a gun held by another Secret Service officer accidentally fired inside the White House gate. The officers received wounds to face and leg."

"Vice President Cheney shoots hunting companion in the face."

So really, what chance do thousands of children a year have?

3,300 Americans have died in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last four years. 120,000 Americans have been shot to death in America in the last four years. Where is the outrage? If we can elect a new congress based on its commitment to end the war overseas, we can elect a congress committed to end the war here at home. End both wars.

Here's the Punchline

Today the supreme court overturned thirty years of supreme court precedent, and overturned the findings of six federal courts, to declare war on women, their health, their privacy, and their lives, by upholding a ban on dilation and curettage abortion that contains NO exception to preserve the health or SAVE THE LIFE of the woman. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg, writing for the four dissenting justices, called the decision "alarming".

Wait for it...

President Custer - "Today's decision affirms that the Constitution does not stand in the way of the people's representatives enacting laws reflecting the compassion and humanity of America. This affirms the progress my administration has made to defend the "sanctity of life".


Some sources:

www.cdc.gov
www.psrla.org/program_gun_violence.htm
www.vpc.org

[marissaazts]

/yawn

as lifetime NRA member the anti gun crowd honestly bores me, try placeing the blame on the person who did the crime and not a inanimate object. You wont ever beable to take our firearms away and you can preach all you want but it isnt even a realistic dream your kind have. unless you are going to go door to door to every home in america and i mean every home you have no chance .. perhaps you should try to get lawenforcement to enforce the laws allready on the books instead of placeing blame on a object, and for me cold dead fingers is the only way you will get mine


in fact i almost hope a big guncontrol debate comes up again as my ffl is still active even though i retired from the business and everytime you people start this stuff i make more $$ ......... so knock yourselves out

[chefmike]

/yawn

as lifetime NRA member the anti gun crowd honestly bores me, try placeing the blame on the person who did the crime and not a inanimate object. You wont ever beable to take our firearms away and you can preach all you want but it isnt even a realistic dream your kind have. unless you are going to go door to door to every home in america and i mean every home you have no chance .. perhaps you should try to get lawenforcement to enforce the laws allready on the books instead of placeing blame on a object, and for me cold dead fingers is the only way you will get mine


in fact i almost hope a big guncontrol debate comes up again as my ffl is still active even though i retired from the business and everytime you people start this stuff i make more $$ ......... so knock yourselves out

I really hope that you get your wish about your cold, dead, crazy fingers being pried from a gun. Just one less crazy on this planet. I also sincerely hope that only fools like yourself are the casualties involved in said incident.

And even better yet...

It would be so cool if it happened on a quail hunt...with no survivors, of course...

In other words...fuck off and die, Annie Oakley...as you are a soulless pig.

[Somedude21]

Why do you support taking arms away from civilians? Just wondering.

[chefmike]

Why do you support taking arms away from civilians? Just wondering.

Where did I say that?

Reading is fundamental, Beavis.

[marissaazts]

It would be so cool if it happened on a quail hunt...with no survivors, of course...

In other words...fuck off and die, Annie Oakley...as you are a soulless pig.

you are quite the mature person arnt ya chef mikey
and i dont hunt never have. but your post shows the kind of mentality many antigun people have ... seems you are more likely to fly off the handle then my "crazy ass"

[wendy48088]

We Are Getting Tired of Prying Your Guns out of Your Cold Dead Hand...


Kiss kiss, bang bang

3/29/2007
By Sarah Klein

The Pink Pistols target hate crimes - and they're not afraid to shoot back.

On a crisp Sunday morning, Nicki Stallard closes one mascara-coated eye and focuses intently on her target. Her long fingers are wrapped around the handle of a Colt .45; black go-go boots hug her muscular legs, which are firmly set in shooting stance. As she rapidly fires off rounds of ammunition, shells fall to the ground, rolling under her stacked platform heels.

Nicki Stallard isn't your average lady.

She was born a man.

Stallard, who has been living as a woman for the past year and a half, is the coordinator of the San Jose chapter of the Pink Pistols - a national organization that encourages gay, lesbian and transgender people to arm themselves to prevent hate crimes. Part social gun club, part political platform, the group's slogans are "Armed gays don't get bashed" and "Pick on someone your own caliber."

Founded in 2000 in Boston by libertarian activist Douglas Krick, the Pink Pistols have since grown to more than 40 chapters across the country. Not surprisingly, the group has garnered its fair share of controversy, both locally and nationally.

The Pistols unite two traditionally opposite ends of the political spectrum over one incredibly hotbed issue - particularly in the state of California, where the Bay Area has been in an uproar over proposed gun control. The San Francisco chapter recently earned national attention during its campaign against the city's controversial proposed gun ban.

Certain members of both the pro-gun rights community and the gay community consider the Pistols to be a thorn in their side. But Stallard says the Pink Pistols just want what every American should be entitled to: the right to walk down the street without fearing for your life.

For Stallard, her individual right to carry a weapon isn't just a
fundamental principle - it's life insurance.


Strange Bedfellows

During a breakfast meeting at a Denny's in San Jose, Stallard is dressed in a tasteful gray pleated short skirt and black turtleneck. She pushes around a veggie omelet with her fork as the rest of the restaurant stares. She either doesn't notice or doesn't care, as she rattles off rapid-fire stats on hate crime incidents and studies that indicate homophobic discrimination among authorities.

"And you choose to be unarmed?" she asks, her blue, neatly made-up eyes wide with astonishment and indignation. "To me, that just doesn't make sense."

Stallard is in the middle of reciting statistics about gun control and personal safety when she's approached by an older man in a security guard uniform, his gray hair shorn in a military cut.

"I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt," he says, and looks directly at Stallard. "I agree with everything you say."

The man is an instructor with the National Rifle Association and spends several minutes discussing the finer points of gun control laws with the transgender woman sitting before him. He says to Stallard,

"People need to be able to defend themselves against lawless acts," shakes her hand and leaves.

"That's pretty much the reaction we've gotten from conservatives," Stallard says, returning to her omelet.

It's a poetic illustration of the issues that cut to the heart of the Pink Pistols: uniting divergent political interests over one hugely controversial topic.

"We support a reasonable balance between individual rights and legitimate public safety concerns," Stallard says.

Jeff Soyer of Vermont, a self-described "gay gun nut" and prolific gun control blogger, is a longtime proponent of the Pistols.

"They're trying to get urban gays and lesbians to not be afraid of the one instrument that, when used properly and legally, can save their lives," Soyer says. "They take the mystique and scariness out of guns and show that a firearm is simply a tool."

Yet the Pistols have become something of a political hot potato, handled with caution - or not at all - by both gay rights organizations and pro-gun groups.

Michael S. Brown, a member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws, has written about the controversy for the politically conservative website Enter Stage Right.

"The leaders of the NRA are well aware of the growth of the Pink Pistols and it presents them with something of a dilemma," Brown writes. "On one hand, they are happy to see a traditionally anti-gun segment of the population swinging over to the pro-gun side. However, if they embrace this new group, they risk alienating some of their current members who actually do fit the right-wing stereotype."
Stallard echoes this sentiment.

"Privately, the NRA have been supportive of us," she says, "but internally there is squabbling."

The NRA has long resisted including other issues in its agenda.

"We are a single-issue group," says NRA spokesperson Ashley Varner. "We support every law-abiding American's Second Amendment rights but we don't take any position on other specific groups."

Yet Pistols founder Krick says the most controversy - and, sometimes, outright hostility - comes not from conservatives, but the gay community.

"We've gotten a lot of support from the gun community in general," Krick says, "but as for the organizations geared towards the queer community, that's where we've been getting a lot more static."

Two of the largest lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender organizations in the nation, the Human Rights Coalition (HRC) and Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG), refused to comment for this article. Spokespersons from both groups claimed their organizations had no stance on the issue.

"For a lot of these groups, they're tied-in very strongly with the liberal demographic that thinks that guns are bad, evil, nasty things, and they tend to buy into that propaganda wholeheartedly," Krick said. "As a result, when we came along they'd already made their decision."

Scott Tucker can relate. As spokesperson for Log Cabin Republication, a national political group for the LGBT segment of the GOP, he's used to assumptions, shock and mockery.

"Really, the Pink Pistols are just proof that gays and lesbians aren't always in political lockstep," Tucker said. "There are gay Americans on both sides of every issue, including the Second Amendment."
Although Tucker says his organization doesn't have an official stance on gun control, he admires the Pistols for tackling a controversial subject unapologetically.

"Any time you have gay and lesbian folks that stand up and say something that isn't popular within their community, that can shatter stereotypes," he said.

Perhaps no one better represents the quandary represented by the Pistols than Julie Marin, a male-to-female transgender law enforcement officer from San Jose. Marin is the founder of T-COPS, a support group for law enforcement officials who have changed genders or are in the process of transition. As a transgender person, Marin recognizes the potentially deadly threat of hate crimes.

"I had one experience with a hate crime," Marin said, "and it was beneficial that I was armed… otherwise I probably wouldn't be here today."

But as a law enforcement officer, Marin is concerned about putting more weapons in the hands of civilians.

"It could be beneficial in a rare instance, but normally it probably does more harm than good," she says. "For me as a law enforcement officer, it does create problems. It's a double-edged sword for my group."

Homophobia vs.hoplophobia

The San Jose chapter of the Pink Pistols is about five years old, but was sitting inactive until Stallard took over two years ago. She's been orchestrating group shoots at the San Jose Municipal shooting range for the past eight months. She describes the group as a small, libertarian-flavored social club that welcomes anyone - regardless of sexual orientation - to participate. Stallard says there are about a dozen or so members, but only a handful of participants at the monthly shoots. She hopes to encourage more political activism as the chapter grows.

Carla Satra serves as range master for the San Jose chapter. She's in her early 60s and says she has been shooting guns since she was a little girl.

Satra says she's disgusted with "the maniacal hoplophobia [fear of weaponry] of the liberal left.

"I'm very much appalled by people who call themselves liberal that would be willing to sacrifice victims to criminal violence to support their politics.

"There are a great many so-called liberal people who have this wonderful fantasy of a world where there's no violence, and allow their fantasy world to demand that prospective victims be disarmed so they'll be helpless in the face of violent criminals. I'm appalled at the concept of victim disarmament. I really don't want to see any more violence, and weapons are a deterrent."

But Sgt. Nick Muyo, public information officer for the San Jose Police Department, believes more violence is exactly what could happen, and cautions against any inklings towards vigilantism.

Muyo says carrying guns isn't the answer; that arming oneself can cause more harm than good. He advises people who are concerned for their safety to be aware of their surroundings, walk in pairs and avoid dangerous spots at night.

"The best thing Nicki and her organization can do is promote the fact that people need to come forward and report hate crimes to the proper authorities," Muyo says. "But arming themselves and taking the law into their own hands is not the answer."

But for Stallard, that's not enough. And it's exactly why she wants a license to carry a concealed weapon (see "Concealed Issues").

Reloading

Nicki owns about 14 handguns, but only eight pairs of heels (they're hard to find in men's size 10).

She was born Niall Stallard (pronounced like Neil, the traditional Irish spelling) and grew up in New York City. She was aware of gender confusion at an early age.

"I knew I had gender issues as a child," she says. "I tried to avoid dealing with them, but it just got worse and worse as I got older."
Niall did what many in his situation do; he forced himself into life as a straight man. He was married briefly and bore two children.
"Being gay in the 70s was bad enough," Stallard recalls, "but being transsexual made the horror factor even worse."

Niall spent seven years in the military working as an X-Ray technician in the Navy; he loved shooting guns and racing muscle cars.
Nicki still loves all those things.

"Many people who are transgender went into traditional male occupations - firefighter, police officer - and did a lot of 'guy things': fast cars, guns, motorcycles. But when you finally accept your true self, that doesn't mean everything you loved before you throw in the garbage."

Now 47, Nicki has only recently come to terms with her true self.
"I knew that I needed to make the change 10 years ago. I made a commitment that I would change. But I held off for everyone around me," she says.

Stallard says her parents were supportive of her, but she still waited until they were dead to undergo her complete transformation, which began gradually with hormone therapy, and culminated in full gender reassignment surgery, performed in Thailand in January.

"I figured I'd let them pass in peace. Why give them more stress in their later years?" she says. "They always worried about me too much. But I've been very fortunate in that my family has stood by me."

She happily reports that her children, now 17 and 18, and all of her coworkers and friends have remained supportive of her throughout her transition. But she freely admits that her case is extremely rare.

A self-described "pragmatic libertarian," Stallard has grown disgusted with both extremes of the political spectrum, and is hoping to work with, instead of against-conservatives on the gun control issue.

"The left and the right may disagree, but there's a common agreement that the government should be accountable to its people," she says. "The sad part is that we could actually work with conservatives on a lot of issues if we weren't so busy insulting them."

Stallard has created a bullet point sheet, which conveys her thoughts on various political platforms. On the printout, she's included several brief statements about herself. Among them:

Nicki Stallard believes that she has a birth defect that she is correcting and she now strongly believes that God loves her. Rather than viewing her condition as a curse, she views it as a unique gift.

Nicki Stallard is rare in that she is not hiding her transgender status. She hopes that in the future she can become a public figure who can open up people's hearts and replace hate with love.

Whether she succeeds remains to be seen.

Article url:
http://www.alternate101.com/cover/contentview.asp?c=210033

Pink Pistols url:
http://www.pinkpistols.org/

[chefmike]

The NRA's Post Massacre Script
Josh Sugarmann

It's an unbelievably sad commentary that high-profile shootings occur frequently enough that we know the National Rifle Association's rote four-step crisis management response.

One. Don't talk to the press. You don't want the NRA's name associated in the public's mind with mass shootings and the inevitable carnage that results from our nation's lax gun policies.

You want to make sure that the last thing anyone associates with a gun massacre is firearms and those who promote them. To argue to the American public that 32 dead college students and teachers is, as the NRA says, "the price of freedom" is far more difficult when the cost is seen with graphic horror, the faces and stories of the lives lost confronting us. The NRA depends on gun violence being an abstract concept to most Americans. Mass shootings make it all too real.

Two. If the press coverage is broad enough, issue a statement expressing sympathy for the victims. If not, ignore them.

Three. When the shooting no longer dominates the news cycle, abandon the bunker and rebuke any and all who have dared to call for gun control. Be sure to indignantly argue that anyone calling for measures to control guns is exploiting tragedy for "political gain." And be sure to attack the news media for actually covering the story.

Four. Work to stop measures to address America's growing gun problem that may be proposed in the wake of the shooting.

Repeat as necessary.

Having employed steps one and two since the Virginia Tech shooting, the NRA is now at step three. Yesterday, in a blog entitled Stop Exploiting Tragedy, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre excoriated those who would talk about the need to stop gun violence in the wake of gun violence. Today's blog is Time for the Media Vultures to Stop. In it, LaPierre has the gall to state the following: "I'm not blaming the media for what happened at Virginia Tech. That responsibility ultimately rests with the killer himself. But the press is responsible for what is [sic] does, for the images it presents us, and there's not a doubt in my mind that the press coverage of this individual gave comfort and validation to others with the same twisted evil in their hearts." So to LaPierre, the problem isn't mass shootings, but press coverage of mass shootings. And when the next inevitable massacre occurs, it will be the news media's fault. All of LaPierre's blogs are accessible from the front page of the NRA's web site.

Only in the gun control debate could someone get away with this. Think of any other event--from the most stunning to the most mundane. In the wake of 9-11, was it wrong to talk about security? In the wake of passenger jet crashes, is it wrong to talk about air safety? In the wake of New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine's motor vehicle crash, is it wrong to talk about seat belt use? In the wake of food contamination incidents, from poisoned spinach to even pet food, is it wrong to talk about food safety? The reality is that America seldom addresses important public health and safety issues until there is a crisis. If the Virginia Tech massacre--the worst mass shooting in America's history--is not the time to look for ways to prevent the next deadly shooting, let alone the nearly 30,000 gun deaths that occur in our nation each year, then when will be the time?

The NRA's existence is a constant gamble: that our nation's longstanding acceptance of gun violence will always outweigh our short-term anger in the wake of tragedies like Virginia Tech. To date, the NRA is winning as America stands alone as the only industrialized nation unwilling to grapple head-on the problem of gun violence.

Towards the end of yesterday's blog, LaPierre wags his finger at those who oppose him: "There is a time and a place for the discussion, the debate, and even the argument over gun control. I believe there is a time to resume this conversation. That is not hours after an event like this takes place. I wish my opponents felt the same way."

Of course you do Wayne. Of course you do.

[marissaazts]

/yawn

[chefmike]

/yawn

That's about what I'd expect from one of the "not until you pry my gun from my cold, dead fingers" crowd...and I sincerely hope that you get your wish, Annie Oakley.

[marissaazts]

again so mature ... wishng death on people, i have grown to expect this type of behavior from your kind

[Felicia Katt]

like yawning was respectful and mature?

The NRA is against any regulation of firearms at all. Since the second word in the Second Amendment is "regulated", thats kind of hard to accept. I would never own a gun. I will probably never understand people who do. But, I am not opposed to others having them, subject to some common sense regulations. Self Defense is a good reason to own a gun, but not an arsenal . Hunting needs guns, but not assault weapons and not cop killer ammo.

Since the Va Tech killer got his guns lawfully, its obvious the existing laws don't do enough to keep guns away from the mentally unstable. Many of the existing laws are not being enforced or have loopholes that make them toothless.

I don't know that any law ever could prevent someone crazy from getting a gun. But I do know that he the only reason this crazy was able to kill and wound so many people was that he had multiple large capacity clips. He shot over 150 rounds. There is no legitimate basis for anyone being able to fire so many rounds so easily or to have that much ammo . Larger capacity clips were against the law, but only for a while. They should be again. There should be limits on how many clips you can buy for a gun. There is no legitimate reason to have the 10-20 clips that were used at that massacre, or to buy the amount of ammunition that was used. They limit cold medicine and spraypaint to prevent meth and graffiti, so why not clips and bullets to prevent massacres.

FK

[sucka4chix]

like yawning was respectful and mature?

The NRA is against any regulation of firearms at all. Since the second word in the Second Amendment is "regulated", thats kind of hard to accept. I would never own a gun. I will probably never understand people who do. But, I am not opposed to others having them, subject to some common sense regulations. Self Defense is a good reason to own a gun, but not an arsenal . Hunting needs guns, but not assault weapons and not cop killer ammo.

Since the Va Tech killer got his guns lawfully, its obvious the existing laws don't do enough to keep guns away from the mentally unstable. Many of the existing laws are not being enforced or have loopholes that make them toothless.

I don't know that any law ever could prevent someone crazy from getting a gun. But I do know that he the only reason this crazy was able to kill and wound so many people was that he had multiple large capacity clips. He shot over 150 rounds. There is no legitimate basis for anyone being able to fire so many rounds so easily or to have that much ammo . Larger capacity clips were against the law, but only for a while. They should be again. There should be limits on how many clips you can buy for a gun. There is no legitimate reason to have the 10-20 clips that were used at that massacre, or to buy the amount of ammunition that was used. They limit cold medicine and spraypaint to prevent meth and graffiti, so why not clips and bullets to prevent massacres.

FK
Gee, FK, you always have some great sensible posts. Maybe YOU should run for office!

[marissaazts]

well as a life member of the nra i know where they stand and as the former owner of a firearms training businss i know all about the crime bill which actually did nothing to help on gun deaths if ya want to discuss facts and not liberal media horsepucky id be glad to as im guessing it did nothign to regulate "grandfatherd" magazines not to mention companys were allowed to sell "replacement parts for magazines 100% leagaly" replacement parts consisted of the mag body, springs, follower, and baseplate a compleate mag just unassembled ...
as for the weapon ban all it did is ban cosmetics and "assult weapons" ie. actual fullautomic or select fire firearms are allready heavly regulated ... the semi auto copies were all that was afected and only in cosmetic form .......... as i said before all any talk of gun bans does is make gun dealers rich as the public panic buys ................ as much as i disliked clinton he made me a lt of $$ in sales

thus my /yawn which is a hell of a lot less rude then wishing death on someone. excues me for being bored of antigun retoric, its useless


edit ... they may regulate meds and paint(i dont know how to make paint or meds) but people can very easily make their own ammo when i was shooting in comp. i had 3 relaoders and makeing ur own ammo is not rocket science

[yodajazz]

They limit cold medicine and spraypaint to prevent meth and graffiti, so why not clips and bullets to prevent massacres.

FK


Because unlimited ammo and clips also helps stop graffiti and meth production by 'taking people out' before they can commit those acts.

But seriously, I think that if that killer had to make his own ammo or build his own clips, that would have taken more steps. He could have been detected or the delay would have been an additional step where a different outcome could occur.

[Linda]

Banning of guns or clips or ammunition is useless all it does is develop a black market. Pot is illegal has it stopped?? Booze was illegal at one time in history??? Prohibition does not work. I make my own ammunition. I have friends that cast their own bullets. Evil and bad people have been in society since the beginning of time. All this gun law bull is a waste of time, and money. The state I live in had drug problems like you wouldn't believe. Crime you name it. What has actually worked. A Concealed carry law. A law allowing citizens to defend themsleves on their property against anyone doing illegal activity. The reason for the second law?? Drugged up idiots stealing, and hurting elderly members of their family for their medication. Pot growers( a substance or weed that is against the law) going onto rural farms and property belonging to others and planting the weed. Meth labs being set up on land. Meth labs in vans going up the highways. You name it. The best defense is a good offense. An elderly person, or anyone needs every advantage against these kind of people.

[marissaazts]

But seriously, I think that if that killer had to make his own ammo or build his own clips, that would have taken more steps.

this killer took 2 months to buy his guns as va allows only one handgun purchase per month ... as for assembly of a magazine it take about 3 minutes if u dont know what ur doing it is about as hard as putting a spring loaded pen together .... u drop 3 parts in and slide the bottom on

ammo requires more effort but it is my no means tuff to do heck i had a reloader that would make 1k rounds an hour to make my compitition ammo

[Felicia Katt]

Is there any bigger oxymoron than being a "life member" of the NRA? LOL

The prior argument was we don't need new gun laws, just to enforce the old ones. Since you pointed out that the laws were ineffective, maybe we do need some new laws. Ones not so watered down by NRA lobbied legislators that they actually do as intended. Just because people can find a way around a roadblock is no reason not to try to slow everyone and stop most. If the Va Tech crazy was homebrewing his ammo in his dorm room, instead of stockpiling it from ebay, he might well have been stopped.

That you would look forward to profiting from a tragedy like this is something I could never understand. I'm sure whoever sold this killer his guns and his clips and his huge cache of ammo will wrap themselves in the same pro gun rationalizing rhetoric that you do, but no amount of wrapping will wash the blood off their hands,

FK

[chefmike]

Pot growers( a substance or weed that is against the law) going onto rural farms and property belonging to others and planting the weed.

I agree, all pot-growers, and pot-smokers should be shot on sight!

They are a menace to society!

Now they are sneaking on to Ma and Pa Kettle's farm and growing the filthy stuff!

Shoot to kill!!

[Felicia Katt]

Gee, FK, you always have some great sensible posts. Maybe YOU should run for office!

well, thank you, but I thnk I am better with erections than elections LOL

meow

FK

[arc angel]

here is the deal , GUNS KILL PEOPLE . jus cause some sick fuck gets a gun now all guns kill people ! FUCK YOU !!!!
Some pepole kicked my door in last year they where armed with 9mm handguns and wanted nothing more than to murder me and take my possesions. where it not for my right to have a gun i would be dead.
my 4570 winchester and my S@W 357 saved my life. those who stepped in my home to steal from me got what they deserved.
if it where you ? what would you do ? defend or die?.......


You will be dead and i will be takin the guns from the enemeys cold hands.......... never will you take my rights!!!!!

[marissaazts]

his huge lot of ammo lol his fireing of 150rounds as you quoted is just 3 boxes not a huge cache by any means

you do know ammo comes 50rounds to a box in most cases for handgun ammo

and for enforceing the laws the law worked as designed the clinton crime bill was bs feelgood legislation not anything more at least on the gun side of it .. i dont know if it actually added more lawenforcement or not so i cant comment on that

[chefmike]

here is the deal , GUNS KILL PEOPLE . jus cause some sick fuck gets a gun now all guns kill people ! FUCK YOU !!!!
Some pepole kicked my door in last year they where armed with 9mm handguns and wanted nothing more than to murder me and take my possesions. where it not for my right to have a gun i would be dead.
my 4570 winchester and my S@W 357 saved my life. those who stepped in my home to steal from me got what they deserved.
if it where you ? what would you do ? defend or die?.......


You will be dead and i will be takin the guns from the enemeys cold hands.......... never will you take my rights!!!!!

Were they there to steal your crack, scarface? :roll: :lol:

[Felicia Katt]

if the laws were only feel good, then some actual do good ones are needed. Will the NRA allow that? Will you as a "life member" urge them to? Probably not. Everyone screams about self defense, but that rightsis not affected, only the "right" to have weapons and ammo that are only suited to massacres.

FK

[Linda]

Pot growers( a substance or weed that is against the law) going onto rural farms and property belonging to others and planting the weed.

I agree, all pot-growers, and pot-smokers should be shot on sight!

They are a menace to society!

Now they are sneaking on to Ma and Pa Kettle's farm and growing the filthy stuff!

Shoot to kill!!

When these people are coming onto the land setting traps( yes they set explosives on the trails to their crop), and are armed themselves I say shoot them, and defend your land and yourself. We actually have helicopters flying over head most of some parts of the year, and armed police and national guard having to go into the woods to get rid of the crop. I personally tink they should jsut legalize the pot.

[arc angel]

grand jury. cleared me . and the justace dept , fuck them the ATF commended me on my home defence.
if you live in a place to defend , your home is where to start.as Americans we have that right .
Scumbags , loosers, and crooks be warnned we the people will not be victomes
@Rc.

[chefmike]

Pot growers( a substance or weed that is against the law) going onto rural farms and property belonging to others and planting the weed.

I agree, all pot-growers, and pot-smokers should be shot on sight!

They are a menace to society!

Now they are sneaking on to Ma and Pa Kettle's farm and growing the filthy stuff!

Shoot to kill!!

When these people are coming onto the land setting traps( yes they set explosives on the trails to their crop), and are armed themselves I say shoot them, and defend your land and yourself. We actually have helicopters flying over head most of some parts of the year, and armed police and national guard having to go into the woods to get rid of the crop. I personally tink they should jsut legalize the pot.

We agree on that. But if you are from the South, don't tell me that you haven't heard of small farms that resorted to growing cannabis, as a result of the indifference to the small "family" farm in the US...

[arc angel]

here is the deal , GUNS KILL PEOPLE . jus cause some sick fuck gets a gun now all guns kill people ! FUCK YOU !!!!
Some pepole kicked my door in last year they where armed with 9mm handguns and wanted nothing more than to murder me and take my possesions. where it not for my right to have a gun i would be dead.
my 4570 winchester and my S@W 357 saved my life. those who stepped in my home to steal from me got what they deserved.
if it where you ? what would you do ? defend or die?.......


You will be dead and i will be takin the guns from the enemeys cold hands.......... never will you take my rights!!!!!

Were they there to steal your crack, scarface? :roll: :lol:


they made the scarfice not me. it was there choice.........

[chefmike]

grand jury. cleared me . and the justace dept , fuck them the ATF commended me on my home defence.
if you live in a place to defend , your home is where to start.as Americans we have that right .
Scumbags , loosers, and crooks be warnned we the people will not be victomes
@Rc.

So you managed to flush that crack that the aforementioned desperadoes were after before the cops arrived, Wild Bill? And how did your parents feel about all this occurring in their basement? Did they kick you out?

[arc angel]

chef your a funny guy, lol someday lets take a walk to millers crossing and talk.....

[chefmike]

here is the deal , GUNS KILL PEOPLE . jus cause some sick fuck gets a gun now all guns kill people ! FUCK YOU !!!!
Some pepole kicked my door in last year they where armed with 9mm handguns and wanted nothing more than to murder me and take my possesions. where it not for my right to have a gun i would be dead.
my 4570 winchester and my S@W 357 saved my life. those who stepped in my home to steal from me got what they deserved.
if it where you ? what would you do ? defend or die?.......


You will be dead and i will be takin the guns from the enemeys cold hands.......... never will you take my rights!!!!!

Were they there to steal your crack, scarface? :roll: :lol:


they made the scarfice not me. it was there choice.........

LMFAO....who's checking ID's around here?

[arc angel]

i could be kelly shore or nelly snore!

[marissaazts]

kat, no i am opposed to any new legislation for firearms and acc. ......... ya need to blame the shooter nothing more

[chefmike]

Virginia governor closes gun loophole
By BOB LEWIS Associated Press Writer

RICHMOND, Va.- The governor on Monday closed the loophole in state law that allowed the Virginia Tech gunman to pass a federal background check and buy the weapons used in the massacre.
Gov. Timothy M. Kaine issued an executive order requiring that a database of people banned from buying guns include anyone who is found to be dangerous and ordered to undergo involuntary mental health treatment.

Seung-Hui Cho had been ordered to undergo psychiatric counseling after a judge ruled that he was a danger to himself.

But because Cho was treated as an outpatient and never committed to a mental health hospital, the court's decision was not entered into the database that gun dealers must check before selling a weapon.

The database "should include any determination that someone is mentally ill and so dangerous to himself or others as to warrant involuntary treatment," Kaine said in a statement.

Cho, a 23-year-old Virginia Tech senior described as a troubled loner, bought his guns legally through gun shops. He gunned down 32 people in a residence hall and a classroom building before killing himself.

No motive has been established for his rampage.

[marissaazts]

now that was a good move made by the gov.
......of course the aclu will now bitch it will cause it will violate the patients rights and privacy

also it doesnt say how he will enforce the law and set up the reporting procedure

[jamans]

Guns are responsible for VA Tech like a spoon is reponsible for making Rosie O'Donnell fat

[Quinn]

Guns are responsible for VA Tech like a spoon is reponsible for making Rosie O'Donnell fat

The issue aside, that was damn funny. Nicely done.

-Quinn

[Legend]

2 students shot at Delaware State
Police identify two persons of interest; campus locked down, classes canceled


DOVER, Del. - Authorities at Delaware State University are questioning a student considered "a person of interest" in this morning's shootings on the campus mall that wounded two other students, the school's police chief said.

Chief James Overton said officers are still searching for a second student they believe was involved, and that the campus of about 3,700 students remains closed. Students are being confined to their dormitories, but parents are being allowed onto campus to take them home.

The identities of the victims have not been released, but Overton said they are a male and female, both 17 years old and from Washington, D.C.


The male was shot once and is in stable condition at Kent General Hospital in Dover. The female is in serious condition at Christiana Hospital in Newark.

Speaking at a news conference, Overton gave the first public account of the early morning shooting. He said that sometime after midnight, eight to 10 students left the Village Café, a campus eatery that recently extended its hours to 3 a.m. to accommodate students up late at night.

He said the group of students dispersed and then later ended up on a pedestrian mall between Grossley Hall and Memorial Hall. Overton said one person in the group took out a gun and fired four to six shots, hitting the two victims.

Students were notified of the shootings in person by advisers, by phone calls and text messages and on the university's Web site. School officials at Virginia Tech were criticized for failing to quickly warn their students of a shooting on campus in April that eventually led to deaths of 32 students.

Carlos Holmes, a university spokesman, said that students are being asked to remain in their dormitories, but were escorted by police at 11 a.m. to get lunch. Parents were being allowed onto campus to take their children home, and students were being allowed to leave if they wished.

Holmes said students for the most part adhered to the rules. "They understand the lessons of the tragedy earlier this year," he said, referring to Virginia Tech. As for the suspect being sought, Holmes said, "We would hope that he's gone by now, but given the lessons of this past year, we cannot assume that he is not on campus."

One student, Alex Bishoff, 20, said he heard five gunshots from his dorm room. He said that a few minutes later, a resident adviser knocked on every door on the floor. "It was to keep a count of people," Bishoff said. "That's the point. They went from room to room."

But Bishoff said that after the warnings and orders to stay put, he left his dorm -- one of three main residence halls on campus -- to see what was happening. "I'm not going to sit in my room like everything's sweet," he said. "I went outside."

The freshman criminal justice student from Washington said he saw people running around and the man who had been wounded limping.

Austin Dickerson, a 19-year-old sophomore from Elkins Park, Pa., said he heard a knock on his door, apparently from a resident adviser, but said no one told him the check was being made. He said he found out about the shooting later this morning when his father called.

His mother, Jody Dickerson, was driving him home today. "It's very upsetting," she said. "I cry not only for my son but for the other children who were in harm's way."

She said she might pull her son out of school. "He's been quite upset," Dickerson said. "He's taking it very hard."
http://www.baltimoresun.com

[BeardedOne]

I thought this would pop up at some point. It's local for me, so I've got my eye on it.

This is one time I'll give you a pass on thread necromancy.

[BeardedOne]

Follow-up:

This incident is, at the moment anyway, not connected with the Newark, NJ execution-style murders of three and wounding of one Delaware State students earlier this year.