what do u think about crossdressers?

[brian23]

what do u TS girls think about CD-s ??

[MrsKellyPierce]

lol I honestly don't understand them. but have the choice to do as they do. And don't hate on them.

[whatsupwithat]

have to post this again...as for cds or drag queens...it's all good, be who you are and rock on with your bad selves!

[SarahG]

-deleted-

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

what's I didn't know you were a TS

[peggygee]

It depends.

The crossdresser of today, may be the transsexual of tommorow.

Then there are the cds who dress solely for sexual gratification.
These may be the ones who are very dismissive of the concerns of the
transcommunity. As 'weekend women' they may ridicule us come Monday
morning when they are out of drag, just like mainstream society.

Then too, society may think that the actions of the transvestite are
reflective of the transsexual. Thus they may feel that we are all hyper -
sexual men in dresses.

So to answer your question, if they are with us in our goals, and reflect
positively upon the transcommunity, I embrace them as allies.

If they do not, then they are part of the problem, and not part of the
solution.

[SarahG]

It depends.

The crossdresser of today, may be the transsexual of tommorow.

Then there are the cds who dress solely for sexual gratification.
These may be the ones who are very dismissive of the concerns of the
transcommunity. As 'weekend women' they may ridicule us come Monday
morning when they are out of drag, just like mainstream society.

Then too, society may think that the actions of the transvestite are
reflective of the transsexual. Thus they may feel that we are all hyper -
sexual men in dresses.

So to answer your question, if they are with us in our goals, and reflect
positively upon the transcommunity, I embrace them as allies.

If they do not, then they are part of the problem, and not part of the
solution.

Our goals? Even if we were to be selective to the point of excluding all tv/cds out there, the ts (specific) portion of the community can rarely agree on anything, let alone something of importance.

Need we forget that in 2005, Joelle (of transgression.com) lobbied to REMOVE hrt from NHS coverage in part of Canada?

[peggygee]

It depends.

The crossdresser of today, may be the transsexual of tommorow.

Then there are the cds who dress solely for sexual gratification.
These may be the ones who are very dismissive of the concerns of the
transcommunity. As 'weekend women' they may ridicule us come Monday
morning when they are out of drag, just like mainstream society.

Then too, society may think that the actions of the transvestite are
reflective of the transsexual. Thus they may feel that we are all hyper -
sexual men in dresses.

So to answer your question, if they are with us in our goals, and reflect
positively upon the transcommunity, I embrace them as allies.

If they do not, then they are part of the problem, and not part of the
solution.

Our goals? Even if we were to be selective to the point of excluding all tv/cds out there, the ts (specific) portion of the community can rarely agree on anything, let alone something of importance.

Need we forget that in 2005, Joelle (of transgression.com) lobbied to REMOVE hrt from NHS coverage in part of Canada?

That definetely is part of the problem, that the transcommunity is so
splintered and has so many competing factions with conflicting goals.

For me the fight for transrights is very reminiscent of the fight for the
civil rights of Black people.

In that movement you had many groups going about the same thing in
many different ways; Dr. King, Malcolm X, The Black Panthers, the Pan -
Africanists, NAACP, PUSH, SNCC, and the the list went on endlessly.

In our fight there are many groups taking many different approaches, but
the goal is the same, equality for transpeople.

[SarahG]

It depends.

The crossdresser of today, may be the transsexual of tommorow.

Then there are the cds who dress solely for sexual gratification.
These may be the ones who are very dismissive of the concerns of the
transcommunity. As 'weekend women' they may ridicule us come Monday
morning when they are out of drag, just like mainstream society.

Then too, society may think that the actions of the transvestite are
reflective of the transsexual. Thus they may feel that we are all hyper -
sexual men in dresses.

So to answer your question, if they are with us in our goals, and reflect
positively upon the transcommunity, I embrace them as allies.

If they do not, then they are part of the problem, and not part of the
solution.

Our goals? Even if we were to be selective to the point of excluding all tv/cds out there, the ts (specific) portion of the community can rarely agree on anything, let alone something of importance.

Need we forget that in 2005, Joelle (of transgression.com) lobbied to REMOVE hrt from NHS coverage in part of Canada?

That definetely is part of the problem, that the transcommunity is so
splintered and has so many competing factions with conflicting goals.

For me the fight for transrights is very reminiscent of the fight for the
civil rights of Black people.

In that movement you had many groups going about the same thing in
many different ways; Dr. King, Malcolm X, The Black Panthers, the Pan -
Africanists, NAACP, PUSH, SNCC, and the the list went on endlessly.

In our fight there are many groups taking many different approaches, but
the goal is the same, equality for transpeople.

But my point is that not everyone is going for the same thing in different ways.

If you're trying to end hrt coverage in a country where you can not import in drugs from internet stores for DIY use, by taking it out of NHS you're effectively ending it as a treatment option.

this is partly why NHS has failure points which are often overlooked by people on both sides of the universal healthcare debates... bureaucracies work very well for routine things but are unreliable at best for unique situations.

Imagine if we had NHS here, counterceptive based drugs would alternate between being covered & not covered depending which political party is in office at the time.

[peggygee]

But my point is that not everyone is going for the same thing in different ways.

If you're trying to end hrt coverage in a country where you can not import in drugs from internet stores for DIY use, by taking it out of NHS you're effectively ending it as a treatment option.

this is partly why NHS has failure points which are often overlooked by people on both sides of the universal healthcare debates... bureaucracies work very well for routine things but are unreliable at best for unique situations.

Imagine if we had NHS here, counterceptive based drugs would alternate between being covered & not covered depending which political party is in office at the time.

I personally do have a global perspective as it effects transwomen, and I
have heard many horror stories as regards the NHS.

Whether the transactivist movement in the US should take on problems
outside of the US is perhaps something to discus.

Though I feel that many US transsexuals would be concerned about
employment, medical care, and legal protections domestically.

On the HRT matter though, with the porous borders between our two
countries I wasn't aware that obtaining HRT was a problem, though in
this instance I believe you are referring to having NHS coverage for it,
if I'm not mistaken.

[alwaysforyou]

I know this question is for the women but I have to comment. I have never found an attracation to a TV except for Kayla Coxx.

[SarahG]

I
have heard many horror stories as regards the NHS.

Whether the transactivist movement in the US should take on problems
outside of the US is perhaps something to discus.

Though I feel that many US transsexuals would be concerned about
employment, medical care, and legal protections domestically.

On the HRT matter though, with the porous borders between our two
countries I wasn't aware that obtaining HRT was a problem, though in
this instance I believe you are referring to having NHS coverage for it,
if I'm not mistaken.

In the Canadian and English systems (both of which are similar NHS systems- not identical, but alike in more ways than people realize) hrt is covered but you have to go about doing it threw the system, and whatever hoops the system has in place to get it.

I forget what it takes to get on hrt under either NHS plan, but I do know that if you started (or at any point go onto) DIY hrt, you have to stop cold turkey and stay off for- last I read 2.5 years- in order to go onto HRT via NHS.

In Canada DIY is not much of an option, unlike in the US where you can go order what you want off of a website like inhouse, have it shipped in by airmail, get threw customs no problem and arrive at your doorstep- Canadian customs is both very strict, and extremely good at blocking such prescription drugs from entering their boarders via mail.

Subsequently- unless things have changed in the last two or three years, girls in Canada can try all they want to order from a site like inhouse but getting it to actually arrive to (any) Canadian mail address is quite the feat. I believe some sites started sending hrt to Canadian addresses hidden inside toys and other cheap consumer goods but, I suspect the chances of that working are the same as any number of goods defined by the country as contraband.

I suppose if you lived close enough to the US boarder a Canadian girl could try getting an American PO box or finding a friend in the US to send packages to... and then just drive the stuff into Canada (not that I would know anything about getting stuff threw boarder checkpoints).

As to the American concerns, such as medical care, I think it would be pretty apparent that NHS would probably not work for allowing ts patients in this country to get hrt threw a health care system... at least with the current system (as messed up as it is), you have a chance to get hrt covered by your insurance by experimenting with different health insurance companies & plans... I have had three or four health insurance companies providing my health care coverage over as many years and all of them never had a problem covering hrt (in fact, due to the way some of the state laws work... I don't think any of them knew what I was taking the drugs for...).

I would go so far as to say that if the US ever actually got universal health care, the system would not be flexible enough to deal with diy hrt and the like and it would probably be back to the days of the standardized gender clinics of the 60s-early80s.... and some people have problems with the SoC being what it is ATM- and thats assuming trans related medical care isn't turned into a political issue as some of the right & religious factions in this country would be posed to do...

As to the situation with Joelle, the argument being made against NHS coverage of hrt could easily be made against hrt coverage under any medical care system and was not specific to NHS systems.

In a nut shell she argued that HRT didn't work since not every patient on it is functional in society (and she would find, as examples, tgirls- in various stages of transitioning, whom were on the streets, in homeless shelters etc) and thus it was only wasting money... and then went so far as to suggesting ending all trans related medical coverage in exchange for a system which merely provides trans patients with anti anxiety prescriptions.

Personally I don't think that every trans person who has trouble in their life, has that trouble solely due to their trans status (to use a more common example, if someone is in a homeless shelter and happens to be a minority race, their race is not necessarily the reason why they ended up in a homeless shelter- people end up on the streets for any number of reasons, not all of them being related to discrimination).

If hrt access can not be a common goal among even solely ts people, I fail to see what possible goal the entire ts (specific) population could share. I know people who are also ts who, unlike me, see absolutely no problem with upholding the Littleton case....

[peggygee]

I
have heard many horror stories as regards the NHS.

Whether the transactivist movement in the US should take on problems
outside of the US is perhaps something to discus.

Though I feel that many US transsexuals would be concerned about
employment, medical care, and legal protections domestically.

On the HRT matter though, with the porous borders between our two
countries I wasn't aware that obtaining HRT was a problem, though in
this instance I believe you are referring to having NHS coverage for it,
if I'm not mistaken.

In the Canadian and English systems (both of which are similar NHS systems- not identical, but alike in more ways than people realize) hrt is covered but you have to go about doing it threw the system, and whatever hoops the system has in place to get it.

I forget what it takes to get on hrt under either NHS plan, but I do know that if you started (or at any point go onto) DIY hrt, you have to stop cold turkey and stay off for- last I read 2.5 years- in order to go onto HRT via NHS.

In Canada DIY is not much of an option, unlike in the US where you can go order what you want off of a website like inhouse, have it shipped in by airmail, get threw customs no problem and arrive at your doorstep- Canadian customs is both very strict, and extremely good at blocking such prescription drugs from entering their boarders via mail.

Subsequently- unless things have changed in the last two or three years, girls in Canada can try all they want to order from a site like inhouse but getting it to actually arrive to (any) Canadian mail address is quite the feat. I believe some sites started sending hrt to Canadian addresses hidden inside toys and other cheap consumer goods but, I suspect the chances of that working are the same as any number of goods defined by the country as contraband.

I suppose if you lived close enough to the US boarder a Canadian girl could try getting an American PO box or finding a friend in the US to send packages to... and then just drive the stuff into Canada (not that I would know anything about getting stuff threw boarder checkpoints).

As to the American concerns, such as medical care, I think it would be pretty apparent that NHS would probably not work for allowing ts patients in this country to get hrt threw a health care system... at least with the current system (as messed up as it is), you have a chance to get hrt covered by your insurance by experimenting with different health insurance companies & plans... I have had three or four health insurance companies providing my health care coverage over as many years and all of them never had a problem covering hrt (in fact, due to the way some of the state laws work... I don't think any of them knew what I was taking the drugs for...).

I would go so far as to say that if the US ever actually got universal health care, the system would not be flexible enough to deal with diy hrt and the like and it would probably be back to the days of the standardized gender clinics of the 60s-early80s.... and some people have problems with the SoC being what it is ATM- and thats assuming trans related medical care isn't turned into a political issue as some of the right & religious factions in this country would be posed to do...

As to the situation with Joelle, the argument being made against NHS coverage of hrt could easily be made against hrt coverage under any medical care system and was not specific to NHS systems.

In a nut shell she argued that HRT didn't work since not every patient on it is functional in society (and she would find, as examples, tgirls- in various stages of transitioning, whom were on the streets, in homeless shelters etc) and thus it was only wasting money... and then went so far as to suggesting ending all trans related medical coverage in exchange for a system which merely provides trans patients with anti anxiety prescriptions.

Personally I don't think that every trans person who has trouble in their life, has that trouble solely due to their trans status (to use a more common example, if someone is in a homeless shelter and happens to be a minority race, their race is not necessarily the reason why they ended up in a homeless shelter- people end up on the streets for any number of reasons, not all of them being related to discrimination).

If hrt access can not be a common goal among even solely ts people, I fail to see what possible goal the entire ts (specific) population could share. I know people who are also ts who, unlike me, see absolutely no problem with upholding the Littleton case....

I was perusing my NHS information on DYI HRT, and am having a hard
time finding that 2.5 year abstinence period that you refer to.

http://www.gendertrust.org.uk/php/showarticle.php?aid=13#A

http://www.nhs.uk/

Though it appears s if a candidate would need to comply with the
Benjamin Standards Of Care and do RLT;

The Real Life Test

It is normal practice for any Gender Identity Clinic or private Consultant Psychiatrist to require a 'Real Life Test' (RLT) in which the patient lives and works full-time in the new gender role, before genital surgery is performed. The patient will change her name legally at the start of the RLT, and is expected to demonstrate her ability to work (this includes voluntary work, or higher education) and function socially as a woman.

The early stages of RLT can be stressful to some patients: much re-learning is required, she may experience rejection from family, friends and others, as well as numerous practical problems. It is important that the patient receives the maximum possible support during this time; her counsellor will probably be the main focus of support, but a co-operative and sensitive attitude on the part of GPs and practice staff is also important.

Once legal name-change has occurred, the patient should be referred to by her new name, and treated as female. The NHS has a policy of issuing new patient numbers to transsexual patients (and amending their records to show the new gender). Assistance with this administrative issue should be given (at the time of writing, the PPSA is the body responsible).


Hormone Treatment from Male To Female

Once the patient has been diagnosed as transsexual, the Consultant Psychiatrist will normally decide to initiate hormone treatment. This involves administering large doses of female sex steroids (oestrogens, usually accompanied with progestrogens) to induce the development of female secondary sexual characteristics. In a pre-operative subject this will normally be accompanied by some form of anti-androgen treatment to reduce the effect of the patient’s endogenous male sex hormones.

Of course many transwomen do not want to go through the bureucratic
hoops that you referred to, and in that instance they should opt to be
seen by a private GP, or Endocronologist. These would be out of pocket
expenses, or through priivate insurance as you mentioned.

In the United States there are many ways to do HRT, there is DYI, free
care - sliding scale, private insurance, paying out of pocket, and many
other variations on that theme.

As I have stated I have indeed heard many of the NHS horror stoies, and
there is GID reform legislation pending. http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/294
http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/294#medicfund
(You may have to wade through that, as I have misplaced the citation).
This may be interesting as well http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=15985&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10
But at a minimum I will concede that NHS has a ways to go in servicing
transpeople.

Yet the fact remains that for the vast majority of transwomen in the
world (Asia, North and South America, parts of Africa) that HRT is
obtainable and affordable.

[Pajj]

Don't forget that some psychologists insist on a person maybe living as a crossdresser for a short period of time before giving the go-ahead for the sex change sequence.

[peggygee]

Here is the Reform of Service Provision of Gender Identity Disorders in
the NHS pending legislation.

Sarah, Sounds like you may want to fill out this petition.

http://www.petitiononline.com/nhsgidsp/petition.html



Reform of Service Provision of Gender Identity Disorders in the NHS




View Current Signatures - Sign the Petition


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To: The UK Government Department of Heath
We, the Undersigned recognise an intrinsically unfair, poor, and inadequate level of service in the NHS treatment of persons suffering with Gender Identity Disorder/Gender Dysphoria.

We recognise a serious absence of the provision of care for this condition at a local level for much of the country, resulting on a reliance on Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic as a main treatment centre for a disproportionate area of the UK.

There is an overly obstructive and detrimental (to the patient) rigidity of service offered to patients with this condition, in contravention of the current international Standards of Care for the provision of treatment for people with this condition (HBIGDA 2001), which stress flexibility of approach and treatment. This often causes patients to see the unsatisfactory care that exists as an obstacle to be overcome rather than as assistance with their condition. This is incongruent with the governments aims for "Patient-Centred Care", and yet little seems to be changing, and cannot change while the NHS relies primarily on a single treatment centre (Charing Cross). "Patient Choice" appears to be another government aim which does not and cannot occur in the treatment of this condition should the current situation remain as it is.

We recognise that NHS treatment of this condition is far behind the standards set by many other countries in the western world, while the private sector of the UK offers a far better service. This effectively renders the NHS a rational and effective choice only for those without the means to obtain private treatment, and so creating a 'two-tier system'.

There is a lack of uniformity in the availability of treatment across the UK, in part because this condition is considered to be of 'low-priority' by some trusts/authorities, while the evidence clearly indicates that this condition can lead to depression (as it often does) and has been known to lead to suicide in some cases, such is the level of distress felt by sufferers. It is also apparent that many GPs and even some psychiatrists have little or no understanding of this condition, further restricting the patients access to the treatment they need and are legally entitled to.

We call for immediate and prompt investigation, and realistic assessment of the service provision for this condition, followed by effective and realistic reform to meet the current international Standards of Care and government aims for the NHS as a whole, to include recognition and assessment of the patients distresses, personal circumstances, needs, ability to make rational judgement, and choices, alongside nessecary medical criteria, and not simply ignored as they currently are.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned




View Current Signatures




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Reform of Service Provision of Gender Identity Disorders in the NHS Petition to The UK Government Department of Heath was created by and written by Christopher Pearse (KrissPearse@Gmail.com). This petition is hosted here at www.PetitionOnline.com as a public service. There is no endorsement of this petition, express or implied, by Artifice, Inc. or our sponsors. For technical support please use our simple Petition Help form.

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[JANIRA]

I PERSONALY DONT HATE ON THEM, LIKE SOME TS MAY DO, I REALLY GET ANNOYED WITH TS THAT MAKE FUN OF A CD, JUST COUSE THEY MAY FEEL HIGHER & MIGHTIER BECOUSE THEY ARE A TS. . I SAY TO EACH ITS OWN ! EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO DO , BE , WHAT THEY WANT TO .

[peggygee]

Don't forget that some psychologists insist on a person maybe living as a crossdresser for a short period of time before giving the go-ahead for the sex change sequence.

What is the Real Life Test? (RLT)

For transsexual persons seeking Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS), the
Real Life Test (also called the Real-Life Experience) is a one-year
minimum period during which they must be able to demonstrate to their
psychotherapists their ability to live and work full-time successfully in
their congruent gender. The Real Life Test is a prerequisite for sex
reassignment surgery under the Benjamin Standards of Care.

Some surgeons(particularly Thai surgeons) may forgo this requirement.

Information on crossdressers;

http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html

What are some categories or types of transgender people?

Transsexuals are transgender people who live or wish to live full time as members of the gender opposite to their birth sex. Biological females who wish to live and be recognized as men are called female-to-male (FTM) transsexuals or transsexual men. Biological males who wish to live and be recognized as women are called male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals or transsexual women. Transsexuals usually seek medical interventions, such as hormones and surgery, to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their preferred gender. The process of transitioning from one gender to the other is called sex reassignment or gender reassignment.

Cross-dressers or transvestites comprise the most numerous transgender group. Cross-dressers wear the clothing of the other sex. They vary in how completely they dress (from one article of clothing to fully cross-dressing) as well as in their motives for doing so. Some cross-dress to express cross-gender feelings or identities; others crossdress for fun, for emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. The great majority of cross-dressers are biological males, most of whom are sexually attracted to women.

Drag queens and drag kings are, respectively, biological males and females who present part-time as members of the other sex primarily to perform or entertain. Their performances may include singing, lip-syncing, or dancing. Drag performers may or may not identify as transgender. Many drag queens and kings identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

Other categories of transgender people include androgynous, bigendered, and gender queer people. Exact definitions of these terms vary from person to person, but often include a sense of blending or alternating genders. Some people who use these terms to describe themselves see traditional concepts of gender as restrictive

[whatsupwithat]

what's I didn't know you were a TS

ha! nah, although after watching a dynamite lesbian film can't say i don't think about being a woman for amoment or two. :P

[MacShreach]

This is for information only, I hope no one minds. I'm a guy.

There is no one NHS service covering the whole of the UK. There are completely separate services for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Policy for these is decided in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and soon, it is to be hoped, Belfast, respectively. This is a result of the UK's present quasi-federal construction.

This is detailed in this paper:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1261193

which shows amongst other things that the per-capita spend is approx 20% greater in Scotland than in England.

This has led to significant differences in health policy and between the standards of service available in the four constituent countries of the UK, and so TG's who are seeking help with transition should research the standards in each country, as it may be beneficial to consider relocating to a more TG-friendly one.

Furthermore in all of the countries,individual General Practise (GP) doctors have considerable leeway in the care strategies they follow, so again, there may be a benefit in relocating to an area that is known to have TG-friendly doctors.

In figures for 2001 there were 300 mtf TG's undergoing transition through NHSScotland. This represents about 1:15000 of total population for that year.

The Scottish Executive, ie the Scottish Government, has evolved a policy of encouraging the integration of Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender people into society and has published guidelines for this that can be seen here:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/01/24135313/0

Again it may be useful to research the policies extant in each of the four countries and consider a move if appropriate.

Hope that helps, ladies.

[peggygee]

This is for information only, I hope no one minds. I'm a guy.

Hope that helps, ladies.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/scotland4.gif

MacShreach, this is very helpful information, you've helped me cut down
considerabley on my research time on this question.

By the by, anytime you run across any data that you feel may be useful,
please don't hesitate to PM me.

Oh, and thanks for being part of the solution. http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/thumbsup.gif

[MacShreach]

By the by, anytime you run across any data that you feel may be useful,
please don't hesitate to PM me.

Oh, and thanks for being part of the solution.

Thank you, and I will. You are very gracious.

M

[arc angel]

food for thought, a few yrs ago a young croossdresser and i where friends we would go to clubs and have fun togather. well now shes a hot hungangel.these girls are not hatched or become hot overnight they all start as (crossdressers).just like a flower they all blossom and bloom.

[hondarobot]

I can't stand 'em. There's five TV's bugging me at work right now. I had to go find a "non dinged up" microphone, and then put on some music for them while they are doing a photo shoot. I put "Lady Marmalade" on repeat until they started yelling at me.

:twisted:

Heh. Seriously, I don't mind cross dressers, I work amongst professional performers though.

I don't consider cross dressing to be TS, honestly. To each their own.

[Tabitha Storm]

Well I am a CD and I adore TS. I am in my late 30's, I raise a child alone and it would be very difficult for any type of transistion. Not that it is not difficult for anyone, but I won't put my child thru that.
I will say there are a lot of CD/TV out there who are just plain bitches. Then again there are TS and GG that are that way too. Personally 1 of the reason I dress is I like to feel fem, I think I look better fem as well.
I can understand a TS not liking the Cd/TV thing. We are only illusions of a woman. We are not trapped in the body of a man, we are just "acting" the part of a woman. I have total respect and much kudos for every TS out there. It is a tough world full of hatefull people.
I just wish there were more TS that liked CD/TV. Not being into men it makes dating a pain. Women don't understand us and most TS prefer men, but we lose that as well because we dress.
Good thing I love heels, they bring me some satisfaction. 50 pair and growing.
Tabitha

[arc angel]

[quote="Tabitha Storm"]

I just wish there were more TS that liked CD/TV. Not being into men it makes dating a pain. Women don't understand us and most TS prefer men, but we lose that as well because we dress.

thats so true.

[brian23]

im an occasional crossdresser and im mostly attrached by GGs. well those very fem looking shemales also attrach me...but whats the thing with TS hating CDs?? can anyone explain it to me...

anyway here are some pics of myself

[brian23]

few more...

[katieftv]

Me... I just hate anything with a pulse :twisted:
But you know theres an element one one upmanship or should that be oneuppersonship :? SOME TS dont like TVs CDs cos they think they get them bad press. SOME think cos they take mones and see the thing between their legs as some kind of alien that they are somehow better than TVs /DCs. Then again some people just need to wake up and smell the coffee and stop being hipocrites. :roll:

[Ecstatic]

I think there's ample room in the multivariate gender matrix for gender benders who are "transgender in the sense of living as both male and female." Of course, there are so many types: some gender benders (or gender fucks) blend attributes of both primary genders to suit their own design, as opposed to living part-time as women and part-time as men: think Boy George. These may, below the surface appearance, remain grounded in one or the other primary gender (that is, identify for instance as male although presenting as a blend of male and female). Others find their gender fulfillment by living in guy mode part of the time and in girl mode the other part of the time, at either juncture presenting as that gender. Still others are in the earlier stages of their transition, and are moving towards becoming fully female (though this does not equate to SRS).

[arc angel]

brian, yay for your honesty !!!!!! the deal is this . most guys here want the girls they see here not the girl dressing 3 days a week.(partime) .
I use to dress and was quite the hottie in the clubs till one night a t girl, said you will never be like me . so i quit and fell in love.to make a long story short i was never a tg girl just confused as to who i was. attracted to tg ladys are the only girls i date now .if you wish to call me gay raise the rainbow flag at my house thats where i live, you cant make it go away . you are who you are!.

[SarahG]

well now shes a hot hungangel.these girls are not hatched or become hot overnight they all start as (crossdressers).just like a flower they all blossom and bloom.

Perhaps part of what is going on, such as even in this thread, is that not everyone uses these terms the same way.

I don't think there are or ever were ts's who started off as cd/tvs- if we are to use the DSMIV type descriptions for each medical condition.

That doesn't mean one is better per say, but I can't see how one can lead into the other or vice versa.

[MacShreach]

Perhaps part of what is going on, such as even in this thread, is that not everyone uses these terms the same way.

I don't think there are or ever were ts's who started off as cd/tvs- if we are to use the DSMIV type descriptions for each medical condition.

That doesn't mean one is better per say, but I can't see how one can lead into the other or vice versa.

:rock2

I'm glad you picked arc angel up on that. It's one of the biggest red herrings around here and it just keeps cropping up again and again.

It still amazes me the number of people, even here, just, simply, don't get it. A CD is a man in women's clothes, a TG is a woman born into a man's body. One is male and the other is female. That's a pretty big difference.

[arc angel]

we cant pick and chose our gender but we can be best at who we are.
just be true to yourself.

[wendy48088]

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[wendy48088]

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[wendy48088]

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[wendy48088]

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[wendy48088]

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[Jericho]

Question: What's the difference between a CrossDresser and a Transsexual?

Answer: 5 years...

(And after saying that, I am presently donning my flame-proof suit...) :D

I thought it was 2 pints and a whisky chaser! :wink:

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[MacShreach]

I thought it was 2 pints and a whisky chaser! :wink:

Arf arf arf very droll, very droll

[MacShreach]

No. That's the difference between a Heterosexual CrossDresser and a Bi-Sexual CrossDresser. :D

LOL good one

[SarahG]

Question: What's the difference between a CrossDresser and a Transsexual?

Answer: 5 years...

(And after saying that, I am presently donning my flame-proof suit...) Very Happy

I can understand how some people might commonly misunderstand the situation, from a medical standpoint due to similar (at times) appearances/stereotypes/etc but I do not see any way in which a cd/tv can become a TS or how the two conditions can be "blurred"

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to flame/insult/etc anyone here- but I think part of the confusion is the reality that; some tv/cds pass very well and some ts girls don't. Alot of people think about the two conditions in terms of looks (I am NOT saying this is a correct position- but some people make the stance that tv/cds don't look as good as ts's and think 'ugly man in hose jerking off').

If someone takes such a position (or one like it - just not as severe) then it is easy to think a passing cd/tv is like a ts, and that an unpassible ts is like a cd/tv... especially when a ts is first starting off and is part time (much in the way many/most cd/tvs are).

Can someone be both? Yes but its complicated and (at the least) rare. I know a FtM ts who is fully transitioned and he is a cd/tv... and will from time to time, get in a revealing dress, throw on some hose and 4" heels and proceed to clean his apartment/house and uses it as 1- a fantasy and 2- a fetish.

Honestly? I don't see many people (MtF or FtM) who would be cd/tv if for no other reason, because it would involve going into a revertion mode (i.e. a MtF- transitioned, that is a tv/cd would be doing guymode for a fantasy/fetish...).

Now I think complicating these confusions is the fact that alot of people may not know what ts is, find out about tv/cd first- think "maybe that is me" and use it to find out what ts is, and that they are ts. But this fails to change the reality that the patient was *already* ts, they just did not know about the medical condition or the terminology.

[peggygee]

well now shes a hot hungangel.these girls are not hatched or become hot overnight they all start as (crossdressers).just like a flower they all blossom and bloom.

Perhaps part of what is going on, such as even in this thread, is that not everyone uses these terms the same way.

I don't think there are or ever were ts's who started off as cd/tvs- if we are to use the DSMIV type descriptions for each medical condition.

That doesn't mean one is better per say, but I can't see how one can lead into the other or vice versa.

The American Psychological Association definition:


http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html

dWhat does transgender mean?

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression differs from that usually associated with their birth sex. Many transgender people live part-time or full-time as members of the other gender. Broadly speaking, anyone whose identity, appearance, or behavior falls outside of conventional gender norms can be described as transgender. However, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-atypical will identify as a transgender person.

What is the difference between sex and gender?

Sex refers to biological status as male or female. It includes physical attributes such as sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, internal reproductive structures, and external genitalia. Gender is a term that is often used to refer to ways that people act, interact, or feel about themselves, which are associated with boys/men and girls/women. While aspects of biological sex are the same across different cultures, aspects of gender may not be.



What are some categories or types of transgender people?


Transsexuals are transgender people who live or wish to live full time as members of the gender opposite to their birth sex. Biological females who wish to live and be recognized as men are called female-to-male (FTM) transsexuals or transsexual men. Biological males who wish to live and be recognized as women are called male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals or transsexual women. Transsexuals usually seek medical interventions, such as hormones and surgery, to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their preferred gender. The process of transitioning from one gender to the other is called sex reassignment or gender reassignment.

Cross-dressers or transvestites comprise the most numerous transgender group. Cross-dressers wear the clothing of the other sex. They vary in how completely they dress (from one article of clothing to fully cross-dressing) as well as in their motives for doing so. Some cross-dress to express cross-gender feelings or identities; others crossdress for fun, for emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. The great majority of cross-dressers are biological males, most of whom are sexually attracted to women.

Drag queens and drag kings are, respectively, biological males and females who present part-time as members of the other sex primarily to perform or entertain. Their performances may include singing, lip-syncing, or dancing. Drag performers may or may not identify as transgender. Many drag queens and kings identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

Other categories of transgender people include androgynous, bigendered, and gender queer people. Exact definitions of these terms vary from person to person, but often include a sense of blending or alternating genders. Some people who use these terms to describe themselves see traditional concepts of gender as restrictive.

[MacShreach]

I knew I was a girl before 5, I didn't know what TS was until years later (early/mid highschool). Does that mean I wasn't ts inbetween the two? If I did girlmode during that time on a parttime basis, does that make me a tv/cd? Simply put I was not tv/cd by being parttime or while I didn't know about the condition (for those curious, in the meantime I merely thought myself to be some kind of oddball freak and left it at that).

I think that's very important. Many MtF's I've known well enough to discuss this with would agree exactly with that. They were always female, though several if not a majority did not actually realise what the issue was until they were adults. It was only when they began to realise that they were TG that they discovered that in fact they always had been. It was the "Eureka" moment when the penny dropped. However the time before they realised that they were actually women was very difficult and confusing. I'm sure it's confusing enough for someone who makes these discoveries about themselves very young, I just can't imagine the anguish a TG who discovers the truth about herself when she is middle-aged must feel.

Puberty is a hugely important time, and it's not surprising. Pre-pubescent boys and girls are pretty much the same physically, parents just dress 'em up to look different. And before puberty gender is not so important. A boy may feel himself to be a girl before puberty but not be TG, and vice versa. Any parent I know will have tales of their boy kids liking to wear dresses when they were very small and put on mum's make-up. These are natural occurrences as the child, who has no real understanding of gender or sex, explores the world around him/herself.

It's only when puberty hits that the way we dress adopts a prescriptive stereotype mode, which, together with peer and parent pressure (even absolutely loving, supportive parents exert pressure) and the effects of the flood of hormones forms the adult man or woman.

At this point I believe that the TG person will begin to have real concerns surrounding the dislocation between that person's own self image and the image that their physical body and peer and parent pressure is forcing upon them. They may not know what's wrong but they know something is. That would mean that a young TG, even one who has no real understanding of what her real gender is, is CROSS-DRESSING WHEN IN BOY'S OR MEN'S CLOTHES.

They may continue to cross-dress in this way well into adulthood, at the same time developing all the physical characteristics of an adult male, perhaps marrying and even siring children. But it's all a sham and sooner or later the whole plot will probably go pear-shaped. We may have a chuckle at the fifty-year-old who finally accepts that she is TG and then has to deal with the effects of 35 years as an adult male, but for the person concerned this isn't funny at all.

Now the result of that is that there are many MtF TG's out there who really do struggle to "pass." But because they are women and have always been women, no matter whether they realised it or not, they are happier and enjoy a better life as women than they would as men, even if their lives as women are made more difficult by society's prejudices.

On the other hand, as you say, there are plenty of cross-dressers who do look very, very passable, though as time goes by the effort required to hide the effects of male hormones must increase drastically. It's here that the issue of sex comes in. There are definitely men who are gay or perhaps bi, rather fem looking, who will cross-dress to attract other men. But remember these are men, gorgeous or not, and men are VERY competitive. So if the advantage you need to succeed is to take hormones and get implants and depilation then there are men who will do this. This effect becomes hugely more important when there is a financial consideration--if being a fine-looking woman is what pays the rent, some guys will become fine-looking women. Lisa Lawer is by no means unique, by no means at all.

Now it is possible, I suppose, that just as some of these men, like Lisa, eventually decide they've had enough, or their goals change or they just lose their looks and they decide to revert to male mode, there are others who will go on to have SRS and become physically complete, well as far as is possible, women. Again, whereas this is possibly rare in everyday life, once you are talking about the sex industry all bets are off. And there is always variation in any biological sample.

Now which girls--say the girls we enjoy looking at pictures of here--are TG and which are CD? I've not a clue, but I do know something--you simply can't tell from the outside.

[Ecstatic]

Excellent comments! Peggy, thanks as usual for providing basic clarification of terms. I'm cisgendered: I was born male, and fully identify as male (though not without those feminine aspects of my nature). But transgender covers such a range of types, and so often there's so much rejection of other types by any given type. Of course one can be bigendered, but I think that's even harder for people to grasp than being transsexual.


I knew I was a girl before 5, I didn't know what TS was until years later (early/mid highschool). Does that mean I wasn't ts inbetween the two? If I did girlmode during that time on a parttime basis, does that make me a tv/cd? Simply put I was not tv/cd by being parttime or while I didn't know about the condition (for those curious, in the meantime I merely thought myself to be some kind of oddball freak and left it at that).
Seen from the outside, at that time you would be perceived as a tv/cd by most. But that's external taxonomy, and as Mac points out, that's fraught with misinterpretation. Yet there's no way for someone on the outside to make that judgement, at least not without knowing you well. So it's only the perception. I would say you have always been a TS woman, but had not yet discovered what that was.


They may not know what's wrong but they know something is. That would mean that a young TG, even one who has no real understanding of what her real gender is, is CROSS-DRESSING WHEN IN BOY'S OR MEN'S CLOTHES.
Excellent point, Mac, and society so often sees it the other way around.


Now which girls--say the girls we enjoy looking at pictures of here--are TG and which are CD? I've not a clue, but I do know something--you simply can't tell from the outside.
So true (I'm assuming that by TG you mean MTF TS). I am certain only about those women I know personally, as otherwise it's simply hearsay and marketing. I think I can distinguish the difference in a great many more cases based on any number of factors, but as you say, I cannot be certain. But then again, it doesn't matter, as I will relate to any person according to how s/he presents at the time (along with the myriad of other social facets that comprise any relationship, however casual or intimate).

[MacShreach]

I'm assuming that by TG you mean MTF TS.

Sorry, yes. I can't presume to discuss the FtM situation because I really don't know enough but I would hazard a guess that the concerns are broadly if not similar, at least congruent.

I have somewhere an old magazine which has a photo-essay done by a French photojournalist about 2 Russian MtF transsexuals whom she followed through their SRS. I will try to dig it out (my magazine archive, AKA "the loft" is pretty big!)

Anyway, some time later the photog found that one of them had become involved in a stable relationship with an FtM transsexual. I always though that was interesting, in that perhaps for many TG's of both polarities, the only person who could really understand them is another TG......I'm not saying that is necessarily the case, but I am interested by the possibility.

[classydtwngrl]

Question: What's the difference between a CrossDresser and a Transsexual?

Answer: 5 years...

(And after saying that, I am presently donning my flame-proof suit...) Very Happy

I can understand how some people might commonly misunderstand the situation, from a medical standpoint due to similar (at times) appearances/stereotypes/etc but I do not see any way in which a cd/tv can become a TS or how the two conditions can be "blurred"

Its pretty simple actually, You along with the rest of us started out as crossdressers hence the word cross and dress which means dressing in opposite gender in which you where born (which your gender is still male "but live as a TS women", unless you have had a sex change already, highly doubtful :roll: ), but in the case you where born a transsexual then you would have been begging mommy and that "pimp" daddy of yours to turn you into a girl a long and i mean long time ago.

aside from that i would like to add my 2 cents, I firmly believe you start out as a crossdresser then if you step up, you can choose the path of a TS or TV as for being born a TS thats a myth, why? because theres no proof what so ever of a child being born a TS nor will there ever be since the "only" way (and i highly emphasize """""""only""""""" quoted since what im about to say is an inconclusive study) is to do a CT scan and compare it to a women that and find some chemical in the brain that women have (not only that but the human mind is still developing even at the age of 18 ), and just keep in mind, thats a STUDY meant to be research not an explanation as to why we are TS. I think ive said enough criticism and shown the faulty aspects of the study but Anyways! anyone who says that has gone past the line of "already crazy" and stepped into insanity, forgive me for being so blunt but that is the cold hard truth.

[biguy4tvtscd]

I can understand how some people might commonly misunderstand the situation, from a medical standpoint due to similar (at times) appearances/stereotypes/etc but I do not see any way in which a cd/tv can become a TS or how the two conditions can be "blurred"

Well, maybe my outsiders (i.e. neither a CD/TV nor a TS) take on it will help clarify.

Sure, perhaps from a medical perspective, CD/TV's and TS's are different.

But from a social perspective, should they be? Should they consider themselves so different that there's nothing but disdain or elitism between the two groups? Hell, I can't even think of a good reason to consider them two different groups from a purely social perspective.

Seems to me the animosity between TS's and CD/TV's is nothing more than ego and superiority complexes. (i.e. "I'm better because I live full time and don't just dress on weekends". "I'm better because mine is a medical condition and I'm working on it, whereas you're just jerking off in hose."). Based on that, all I can is: GET THE FUCK OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE

There should be a natural, and emphasized solidarity between TS's, CD's, and TV's, and for no other reason than this: When some ignorant piece of shit scumbag is beating you senseless in a dark alley outside your favorite nightclub, they're not going to give rat's ass how your doctor classifies you. They're not going to care whether you're a "guy in a dress" or a "woman born into a man's body", to them, you're just another "freak".
It's not just about physical violence either, the same holds true for those that will hold you back from getting a job, advancing at a job, buying a house, renting, etc.., etc.., etc...

Plain and simple, those that are going to discriminate against you, are not going to pull out their liitle websters book of gender related distinctions, and double check your stauts before discriminating.

[SarahG]

Its pretty simple actually, You along with the rest of us started out as crossdressers

Did you follow/read this thread at all? They are two totally different mental health conditions, one being a sexual fetish and the other a personality disorder.

There simply is no way that the conditions can be meshed as you describe.

That is not to say that the early stages of someone who is ts, and someone who is cd/tv may appear to be similar situations- but from a psy perspective they have almost nothing (if not nothing) in common.

You can talk about brain scans all you want, but that does not change the fact that the two conditions are in different parts of the DSM, in different categories.

Think of it this way, if we were to agree that a pre-everything ts doing parttime is crossdressing per your use of the word for shake of arguement, then that still does not make them a TV per the DSMIV... and this thread is about the differences between tvs and ts's.

The two conditions are more different from each other than a skitzoid personality disorder is in relation to skitzophrenia.

Edit/ADD:

Also, if you want to get really picky- crossdress using a breakdown of the word (cross & dress) doesn't make any references to birth sex. In the simplest form, crossdressing means dressing of the opposite... but that can mean different things to different people. Opposite gender? Sex?

Its all about word usage. I apply the term CD as opposite gender- not opposite sex.

In a nut shell CD is the action no matter how you use the term, TV or TS is the condition. Someone can not be a "CD"- thats merely slang, they can be a TV or a TS only.

[SarahG]

Seems to me the animosity between TS's and CD/TV's is nothing more than ego and superiority complexes. (i.e. "I'm better because I live full time and don't just dress on weekends". "I'm better because mine is a medical condition and I'm working on it, whereas you're just jerking off in hose."). Based on that, all I can is: GET THE FUCK OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE

I am confused, are you saying I am on a high horse? I already have stated that I don't care one way or an other if someone is a tv/cd, just as I don't care what someone's orientation is. It's not going to change how I view them or interact with them.

The jerking off in hose bit I specifically stated was not my position, nor one I agreed with-- I was merely making a point about the severe misconceptions out there and how those misconceptions are not always acurate. Perhaps I was not clear enough with that point.



When some ignorant piece of shit scumbag is beating you senseless in a dark alley outside your favorite nightclub, they're not going to give rat's ass how your doctor classifies you. They're not going to care whether you're a "guy in a dress" or a "woman born into a man's body", to them, you're just another "freak".

I will give you that, but it is hardly new nor radical to say that the only thing ts & tvs have in common is the way they are viewed from outsiders (hence thugs, police, people in positions of power which can- usually legally- discriminate from/with).

LGBT groups include as much as they do because of these similar "issues" in society- but that doesn't make everyone from each subgroup the same as everyone else. That doesn't mean that anyone is better either- just different.

People group the same way based on mental health conditions... in the 19th century you'd end up locked in a cage for being any number of things currently in the DSMIV... schizophrenia and pyscholosis may be as different as apples and oranges but at the time they were going to get the same treatments and the same societal ramifications.

Truth be told, getting back to the OP- TV and TS are both medical conditions per the APA & DSMIV and I don't think anyone here has said that either of the two are *not* a medical condition. Different pages of the same book if you will.

[peggygee]

Excellent comments! Peggy, thanks as usual for providing basic clarification of terms.

Actually Ecstatic I would like to thank both you and MacShreach for
keeping the discussion on target and not allowing it to devolve in typical
HA fashion.

Both of you have provided cogent and articulate viewpoints to the topic
at hand.

Thank you.

[biguy4tvtscd]

I am confused, are you saying I am on a high horse? I already have stated that I don't care one way or an other if someone is a tv/cd, just as I don't care what someone's orientation is. It's not going to change how I view them or interact with them.

While I did quote you in my response, the particular paragraph of mine that you quoted, was not directed at you specifically. It was directed at any TS that puts themselves above a CD or TV, or any TV that put's themselves above a CD, or any combination you can think of.

Apologies if you believed it was meant for you and only you. I was actually heading back to edit that for clarity, but figured I'd just respond here instead.

I did quote you for a reason, and that reason is because it seemed to me that you were using the "medical condition" vs. "fetish" to justify the "wall of separation" that is built by TS's to keep out CD/TV's and vice versa.

My point is simply that just because one is a medical condition whereas the other is more of a fetish/fantasy thing, it's pretty farkin stupid for T-Girls of any shape/variety/condition/etc.. to be throwing girls from the "other side" to the wolves.

Looking back on the thread more, I realize that you were likely just pointing out the difference because of posters claiming that "All TS's began as CD's"
But my point is this....who the fuck cares? You girls have to all be in this together, the more you ostracize from within, the weaker you are when dealing with ostracism from the outside. And again, as far as most of the outside is concerned, there ain't a goddamn bit of difference between a TS, a TV, and a CD.

[classydtwngrl]

Its pretty simple actually, You along with the rest of us started out as crossdressers

Did you follow/read this thread at all? They are two totally different mental health conditions, one being a sexual fetish and the other a personality disorder.

There simply is no way that the conditions can be meshed as you describe.

That is not to say that the early stages of someone who is ts, and someone who is cd/tv may appear to be similar situations- but from a psy perspective they have almost nothing (if not nothing) in common.

You can talk about brain scans all you want, but that does not change the fact that the two conditions are in different parts of the DSM, in different categories.

The two conditions are more different from each other than a skitzoid personality disorder is in relation to skitzophrenia.

:roll: its one thing to say your a TS its another to say it based upon psychological evaluations, I really dont know a better way to say this but GD, GID whatever you want to call it, is a bunch of BS made up by the medical community for an explanation as to why we are TS let alone its just a bunch of stupid terms made up to please us, I of all people know how easy it is to lie my way into any issues. But ive changed my mind im not really going to KILL or ridicule GD or GID because you know its a bunch of made up BS. but aside from that theres really nothing to explain that your a TS based upon anything at the moment. but seriously dont get me started on GD, GID ill say the exact same thing i said about the "mind" study.


Think of it this way, if we were to agree that a pre-everything ts doing part time is crossdressing per your use of the word and for sake of the argument, then that still does not make them a TV per say the DSMIV... and this thread is about the differences between tvs and ts's.

(side note) edited your paragraph

Did you actually read the DSMIV?

Gender Identity Disorder

Paraphilias

Exhibitionism.
Fetishism.
Frotteurism.
Pedophilia.
Sexual Masochism. :lol:
Sexual Sadism. :lol:
:arrow: Transvestic Fetishism.
Voyeurism.

Associated Features:

Separation Anxiety Disorder
Generalized Anxiety Disorder
Symptoms of Depression
Transvestic Fetishism (funny i didnt know you could have the same characteristics of a TV while being a TS)
Other Paraphilias.
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia.

Differential Diagnosis:

Some disorders have similar or even the same symptoms. The clinician, therefore, in his/her diagnostic attempt has to differentiate against the following disorders which need to be ruled out to establish a precise diagnosis. Children with Gender Identity Disorder may manifest coexisting Associated Personality Disorders are more common among males than among females being evaluated at adult gender clinics.

Schizophrenia.
Delusions.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: LOL whats next........ are they gonna come out with paranoia as a 3rd :roll:

LOL its a wonder we dont call flamboyant metrosexuals, transvestites or transsexuals based upon that

:roll: that pretty much confirms that TS, TV, CD are linked together based upon psychological evaluations, not really much of a diffrence now is there :lol:

[peggygee]

I can understand how some people might commonly misunderstand the situation, from a medical standpoint due to similar (at times) appearances/stereotypes/etc but I do not see any way in which a cd/tv can become a TS or how the two conditions can be "blurred"

Well, maybe my outsiders (i.e. neither a CD/TV nor a TS) take on it will help clarify.

Sure, perhaps from a medical perspective, CD/TV's and TS's are different.

But from a social perspective, should they be? Should they consider themselves so different that there's nothing but disdain or elitism between the two groups? Hell, I can't even think of a good reason to consider them two different groups from a purely social perspective.

Seems to me the animosity between TS's and CD/TV's is nothing more than ego and superiority complexes. (i.e. "I'm better because I live full time and don't just dress on weekends". "I'm better because mine is a medical condition and I'm working on it, whereas you're just jerking off in hose."). Based on that, all I can is: GET THE FUCK OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE

There should be a natural, and emphasized solidarity between TS's, CD's, and TV's, and for no other reason than this: When some ignorant piece of shit scumbag is beating you senseless in a dark alley outside your favorite nightclub, they're not going to give rat's ass how your doctor classifies you. They're not going to care whether you're a "guy in a dress" or a "woman born into a man's body", to them, you're just another "freak".
It's not just about physical violence either, the same holds true for those that will hold you back from getting a job, advancing at a job, buying a house, renting, etc.., etc.., etc...

Plain and simple, those that are going to discriminate against you, are not going to pull out their liitle websters book of gender related distinctions, and double check your stauts before discriminating.

While technically transvestites fall under the trangendered umbrella, their
motivations are markedly different from transsexuals. The vast majority
of cross dresserss or transvestites, crossdress for fun, for emotional
comfort, or for sexual arousal. This activity is often limited in it's duration
and degree, and for the most part the transvestite is quite content to
remain in their birth gender.

Transsexuals who also come under the transgender umbrella, desire to
live full time as members of the gender opposite to their birth
gender.They will utilize surgical, chemical, and legal mean to do so. They
often are veery unhappy in their birth genders.

What they have in common is that they are both transgendered, that they
may dress in clothing that is not congruent to their birth genders, and
that 'society' often is not able to differentiate between the two groups.

Should there be solidarity between the two groups. If so on what issues.
As 'weekend women' they are able to opt out of the discrimination that
the transsexual must face 24/7/365. If anything they benefit from our
being on the front lines on a daily basis.

Further it often is the transvestite who will discriminate against the
transsexual for various reasons.

Admittedly I am somewhat of a hardliner on this issue. But having said
that I don't feel that transsexuals are better than transvestites, or that
hetero-sexuals are better than the transgendered.

My concerns are if the actions of the transvestite will be negatively
reflective on the transsexual.

As I stated previously, if they are with us in our goals, and reflect
positively upon the transcommunity, I embrace them as allies, just as I
would the heterosexual, or any of the groups in the GLB.

If they do not, then they are part of the problem, and not part of the
solution.

[Ecstatic]

Excellent comments! Peggy, thanks as usual for providing basic clarification of terms.

Actually Ecstatic I would like to thank both you and MacShreach for
keeping the discussion on target and not allowing it to devolve in typical
HA fashion.

Both of you have provided cogent and articulate viewpoints to the topic
at hand.

Thank you.
Thanks, Peggy. Being cisgendered, I can only understand the viewpoint of the transgendered vicariously, but I always strive to do so openmindedly and respectfully (but OMG she is so hot....erm, *koff-koff*, pardon me....).


While technically transvestites fall under the trangendered umbrella, their motivations are markedly different from transsexuals. The vast majority of cross dresserss or transvestites, crossdress for fun, for emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. This activity is often limited in it's duration and degree, and for the most part the transvestite is quite content to remain in their birth gender.
True. But there are also the bigendered, who live part-time as both primary genders, not because they haven't transitioned fully, nor exclusively for fun, comfort or sexual arousal (though these may play a significant role), but because they identify with both genders at different junctures of their lives. I have several friends who are bigendered, and have been so for decades. It's not merely a passing fancy or weekend womanhood. How do you see the bigendered, Peg?

[Kriss]

Sorry, did you say Scotch-dressers?

[peggygee]

True. But there are also the bigendered, who live part-time as both primary genders, not because they haven't transitioned fully, nor exclusively for fun, comfort or sexual arousal (though these may play a significant role), but because they identify with both genders at different junctures of their lives. I have several friends who are bigendered, and have been so for decades. It's not merely a passing fancy or weekend womanhood. How do you see the bigendered, Peg?

At first blush, bigendered has a androgynous connotation for me. A
blurring of the masculine and feminine, but that of course over-simplifies
the case.

I would say it falls under the transgender umbrella, with perhaps an
example being those who are intersexual, or those that change their
gender at various stages of their life.

The novel by Virginia Woolf and the subsequent movie 'Orlando'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107756/ comes to mind.

[Ecstatic]

At first blush, bigendered has a androgynous connotation for me. A
blurring of the masculine and feminine, but that of course over-simplifies
the case.

I would say it falls under the transgender umbrella, with perhaps an
example being those who are intersexual, or those that change their
gender at various stages of their life.

The novel by Virginia Woolf and the subsequent movie 'Orlando'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107756/ comes to mind.
That's a Woolf I haven't read, nor have I seen the movie. (Adds to list.)

I wasn't thinking of androgyny, though that of course is also a form of bigenderism, where the two genders are as you say "blurred." Nor intersexed, which is physiologically quite distinct in any of its forms (though psychologically perhaps quite similar in some ways). I was thinking more of those who change their gender at different times, not so much stages of their lives, but "stations" of their lives: they are female in some circumstances, and male in others.

I don't know. Although I have several friends who I think fit this description, I still don't really understand it very well. Interesting topic, though.

[SarahG]

its one thing to say your a TS its another to say it based upon psychological evaluations, I really dont know a better way to say this but GD, GID whatever you want to call it, is a bunch of BS made up by the medical community for an explanation as to why we are TS let alone its just a bunch of stupid terms made up to please us

Most medical conditions in the DSM, including older versions of the book, are conditions which were made up in the sense that there was something deemed abnormal OR maladaptive (not necessarily both) and thus given a name, possible treatment ideas etc. Certainly some conditions have biological aspects (like schizophrenia) but not all do.

I don't buy that GID was made up to appease the all powerful ts lobby :rolleyes: It doesn't take alot to realize that having the opposite gender as your physical sex means something is wrong/abnormal... and you could take that in either direction (being crazy enough to think that such is the case OR the reality that such *is* the case ->depending which mindset you follow).

I should explain what I mean by wrong, I follow the idea that if you need a treatment for something, it is because something requires it (aka something is wrong). Transitioning and all the related aspects of it (say hrt, etc) are treatments to the condition if you will. Does that mean someone who is ts should be discriminated against or be seen as any less of a human? No, not at all.

[peggygee]

At first blush, bigendered has a androgynous connotation for me. A
blurring of the masculine and feminine, but that of course over-simplifies
the case.

I would say it falls under the transgender umbrella, with perhaps an
example being those who are intersexual, or those that change their
gender at various stages of their life.

The novel by Virginia Woolf and the subsequent movie 'Orlando'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107756/ comes to mind.
That's a Woolf I haven't read, nor have I seen the movie. (Adds to list.)

I wasn't thinking of androgyny, though that of course is also a form of bigenderism, where the two genders are as you say "blurred." Nor intersexed, which is physiologically quite distinct in any of its forms (though psychologically perhaps quite similar in some ways). I was thinking more of those who change their gender at different times, not so much stages of their lives, but "stations" of their lives: they are female in some circumstances, and male in others.

I don't know. Although I have several friends who I think fit this description, I still don't really understand it very well. Interesting topic, though.

Bigendered is tricky for me to get my head around as well. The gender
continuum can be a difficult pardigm to grasp at times, no wonder 'the
breeders' lump everyone into one basket. :lol:

Try to see Orlando as soon as you can, I tend to have a sense of the
movies that you like, and this would definitely fit your bill.

[Ecstatic]

Bigendered is tricky for me to get my head around as well. The gender
continuum can be a difficult pardigm to grasp at times, no wonder 'the
breeders' lump everyone into one basket. :lol:

Try to see Orlando as soon as you can, I tend to have a sense of the
movies that you like, and this would definitely fit your bill.
Ah, ye olde multivariate gender matrix (to paraphrase someone we both know elsewhere), very tricky to navigate at times.

Orlando has just moved up my list with that recommendation: time to dial up my DVD vendor and order a copy. Darn, and I was so looking forward to Grindhouse....

[Sherri]

Please don't take this post as being argumentative or bad spirited. I respect most of the points being made here. I've been lurking on the forum for a long time and thought I would finally contribute something, just to add a typical CDs perspective.

I am a middle-aged bi-sexual crossdresser who came to it late in life. I've been doing it regularly now for about 5 years and it is an important aspect of my life on several levels, some prurient, some emotional, some something else that is difficult to put into words.

I know now that this feminine thing has always been a part of me (along with a powerful exhibitionist urge tracing back to prepubescence), and if I had my life to live over, there is little doubt in my mind that I would have started hormones as soon as I got out of high school and made the transition to fulltime femininity. I yearn for that fulltime status even now. That said, I have never had and will never have a desire to relinquish my male genitalia, even though I would love to have real breasts and a feminine physique. As much as I love GG women, there is nothing sexier to me than a feminine body paired with a pretty cock, as is abundantly evident on this forum.

But I didn't make that decision long ago, largely due to an ignorance that wasn't disspelled until a failed marriage and the Internet. Now I have a career, kids, friends and a life history that would all suffer enormously if I made an irresponsible choice. But that's okay, I can live with that as long as I have regular opportunities for feminine expression and a combined male/female sexuality that feels very natural to me.

I may or may not be a typical crossdresser, I dunno. But I have experienced prejudice from gays and TSs, and had enough conversations to know that TSs don't even remotely understand someone like me nearly as much as they think they do. They are not superior beings (most of them live lives of desperate circumstances that force them into prostituition) and they have no need or right to pass judgement on me.

One point that has been made in this thread that I will concede is that compared to a beautiful TS, many CDs look like caricatures, like men in women's clothing, and make a bad impression on the rest of society. For most, there are reasons why they can't go to the extremes TSs do, but some really should put more effort into their appearance. Still, part of the problem is conditioned social expectations, gender stereotypes that are too rigid. I love to see a man with shaved legs, panties and a short skirt. I think it's really sexy. Besides, not all CDs can be beautiful any more than all TSs or all gender straight people can be beautiful.

Some CDs do behave rather scandalously sometimes, I'll admit. I'm as guilty of that as anyone. I am a very sexual creature - very. I hate wearing skirts longer than 10" (although I do if I'm going to the mall etc.) When I'm out clubbing I dress a little slutty, and sometimes I behave that way, too. I also go to adult theaters sometimes simply because it is so difficult to find a real relationship. But 90% of my exposure to TSs is tied to the sex trade, this forum being a perfect example. So how can they possibly say that my behavior reflects badly on them?!? Of the crossdressers that I know personally, they are all far more conservative than any of the TSs that I have met or otherwise been exposed to.

One thing I'll never understand at all -- how can an individual or group that endures such social prejudice and ostracism the way gays, lesbians and TGs do justify in their own minds treating crossdressers with the same judgemental hatefulness? I have no patience for it. The prejudice thing hurts doubly bad because, while I may not understand TSs any more than they understand me, I think they are attractive creatures to whom I am naturally disposed to like, befriend and defend --- if they weren't so condescending, even hateful.

[handsumjack]

Anyone with a COCK that looks like, feels like, looks and feels like, etc.... a woman is the One.

[Gillian]

I am a middle-aged bi-sexual crossdresser who came to it late in life.
Welcome to the club ... ;)


One thing I'll never understand at all -- how can an individual or group that endures such social prejudice and ostracism the way gays, lesbians and TGs do justify in their own minds treating crossdressers with the same judgemental hatefulness?
It's the TERF wars that baffle me ... :(

[Nick Danger]

Wow, 11 years. What is the necropost record for this site?

[ReynaRolandKiss]

Please don't take this post as being argumentative or bad spirited. I respect most of the points being made here. I've been lurking on the forum for a long time and thought I would finally contribute something, just to add a typical CDs perspective.

I am a middle-aged bi-sexual crossdresser who came to it late in life. I've been doing it regularly now for about 5 years and it is an important aspect of my life on several levels, some prurient, some emotional, some something else that is difficult to put into words.

I know now that this feminine thing has always been a part of me (along with a powerful exhibitionist urge tracing back to prepubescence), and if I had my life to live over, there is little doubt in my mind that I would have started hormones as soon as I got out of high school and made the transition to fulltime femininity. I yearn for that fulltime status even now. That said, I have never had and will never have a desire to relinquish my male genitalia, even though I would love to have real breasts and a feminine physique. As much as I love GG women, there is nothing sexier to me than a feminine body paired with a pretty cock, as is abundantly evident on this forum.

But I didn't make that decision long ago, largely due to an ignorance that wasn't disspelled until a failed marriage and the Internet. Now I have a career, kids, friends and a life history that would all suffer enormously if I made an irresponsible choice. But that's okay, I can live with that as long as I have regular opportunities for feminine expression and a combined male/female sexuality that feels very natural to me.

I may or may not be a typical crossdresser, I dunno. But I have experienced prejudice from gays and TSs, and had enough conversations to know that TSs don't even remotely understand someone like me nearly as much as they think they do. They are not superior beings (most of them live lives of desperate circumstances that force them into prostituition) and they have no need or right to pass judgement on me.

One point that has been made in this thread that I will concede is that compared to a beautiful TS, many CDs look like caricatures, like men in women's clothing, and make a bad impression on the rest of society. For most, there are reasons why they can't go to the extremes TSs do, but some really should put more effort into their appearance. Still, part of the problem is conditioned social expectations, gender stereotypes that are too rigid. I love to see a man with shaved legs, panties and a short skirt. I think it's really sexy. Besides, not all CDs can be beautiful any more than all TSs or all gender straight people can be beautiful.

Some CDs do behave rather scandalously sometimes, I'll admit. I'm as guilty of that as anyone. I am a very sexual creature - very. I hate wearing skirts longer than 10" (although I do if I'm going to the mall etc.) When I'm out clubbing I dress a little slutty, and sometimes I behave that way, too. I also go to adult theaters sometimes simply because it is so difficult to find a real relationship. But 90% of my exposure to TSs is tied to the sex trade, this forum being a perfect example. So how can they possibly say that my behavior reflects badly on them?!? Of the crossdressers that I know personally, they are all far more conservative than any of the TSs that I have met or otherwise been exposed to.

One thing I'll never understand at all -- how can an individual or group that endures such social prejudice and ostracism the way gays, lesbians and TGs do justify in their own minds treating crossdressers with the same judgemental hatefulness? I have no patience for it. The prejudice thing hurts doubly bad because, while I may not understand TSs any more than they understand me, I think they are attractive creatures to whom I am naturally disposed to like, befriend and defend --- if they weren't so condescending, even hateful.

Seriously! More people need to read this reply!!! Perfectly said!