Upper/Middle Class transsexuals vs. Poor transsexuals

[johnie]

I am just throwing this one out there for some honest conversation, I do not want to offend anyone:

Do you think that the upper/middle class transsexual experience is different than the poor transsexual experience?

Off the top of my head, some thoughts/questions that come to mind are:

Are the two groups accepted differently by society? Are the poor girls just considered pieces of meat to be bought and sold, while the richer girls are more easily accepted?

Are more poor girls forced into the transsexual life? (ie. teenage boys forced by pimps or a poor economy to become TS prostitutes.) Are there poor transsexuals who if were under different economic circumstances would not want to make the transistion out of their own free will?

On average, do upper/middle class men transition later in life than their poorer counterparts? Are upper/middle class men more afraid of being social outcasts?

Would the family of a upper/middle class transsexual accept their child's decision more than a poor transsexual's family would? Is it the other way around?

How big of a problem do you think is human trafficking, forced prostitution and sex slaves in the world? Are WE to blame for any of it? Even a small amount? Do we perpetuate an industry that 21st centurty slaves are forced to work in? If prostituion is legalized would forced prostitution be put under control?

Although, I do NOT have any concrete numbers on the population of transsexuals by country, why does it seem that the poor countries spawn more transsexuals, atleast in porn and on escort sites, than more developed western countries? The famous and beautiful South American and South East Asian girls, in my opinion, dominate the escort/porn business. Are they forced to do this because they don't have as many options as the upper/middle class girls? Again, I have not looked up any figures, but the poor girls seem to be over represented in the business of flesh.

Through sex tourism, are westerners to blame for the over representation of poorer ethnic groups in the escort business? Or would those ethnic groups choose to transsition at the same rates regardless of western sex tourism? (What came first, the chicken or the egg?)

My intention here is not to insult anyone who reads this. I know there is a lot of women on this board from different socio-economic and ethnic groups. I also know that this thread is not terribly specific, however, feel free to comment on any of the thoughts above and to add any of your own questions.

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/popcorn.jpg

[ezed]

Ask Jaimie.

[Legend]

I am just throwing this one out there for some honest conversation, I do not want to offend anyone:

Do you think that the upper/middle class transsexual experience is different than the poor transsexual experience?

Off the top of my head, some thoughts/questions that come to mind are:

Are the two groups accepted differently by society? Are the poor girls just considered pieces of meat to be bought and sold, while the richer girls are more easily accepted?

Are more poor girls forced into the transsexual life? (ie. teenage boys forced by pimps or a poor economy to become TS prostitutes.) Are there poor transsexuals who if were under different economic circumstances would not want to make the transistion out of their own free will?

On average, do upper/middle class men transition later in life than their poorer counterparts? Are upper/middle class men more afraid of being social outcasts?

Would the family of a upper/middle class transsexual accept their child's decision more than a poor transsexual's family would? Is it the other way around?

How big of a problem do you think is human trafficking, forced prostitution and sex slaves in the world? Are WE to blame for any of it? Even a small amount? Do we perpetuate an industry that 21st centurty slaves are forced to work in? If prostituion is legalized would forced prostitution be put under control?

Although, I do NOT have any concrete numbers on the population of transsexuals by country, why does it seem that the poor countries spawn more transsexuals, atleast in porn and on escort sites, than more developed western countries? The famous and beautiful South American and South East Asian girls, in my opinion, dominate the escort/porn business. Are they forced to do this because they don't have as many options as the upper/middle class girls? Again, I have not looked up any figures, but the poor girls seem to be over represented in the business of flesh.

Through sex tourism, are westerners to blame for the over representation of poorer ethnic groups in the escort business? Or would those ethnic groups choose to transsition at the same rates regardless of western sex tourism? (What came first, the chicken or the egg?)

My intention here is not to insult anyone who reads this. I know there is a lot of women on this board from different socio-economic and ethnic groups. I also know that this thread is not terribly specific, however, feel free to comment on any of the thoughts above and to add any of your own questions.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f210/JayStrong/ScannersExplodingHead.gif

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I am just throwing this one out there for some honest conversation, I do not want to offend anyone:

Do you think that the upper/middle class transsexual experience is different than the poor transsexual experience?

Off the top of my head, some thoughts/questions that come to mind are:

Are the two groups accepted differently by society? Are the poor girls just considered pieces of meat to be bought and sold, while the richer girls are more easily accepted?

No. I dont for a second think that their struggles are any different as transexuals. Nor is any upper middle class (richer girls) got it easy or were more accepted than the poor girls (Or the families of the rich are more accepting). I would say tho that richer ts might have delayed exposure if anything discovering the sex trade industry.

Why do you think Brazil and Thailand TS'es are the most popular and have monopoly over the industry? POVERTY! The money that one can make being a sex worker is overwhelming (in their countries currency). And it translate to funding at a faster "transition" phase and feeding their families. Remember a post Vicki Ritcher did awhile ago about south american TS'es going through certain types of operation and having colostomy bags? That is the latest trend currently catching on.


Are more poor girls forced into the transsexual life? (ie. teenage boys forced by pimps or a poor economy to become TS prostitutes.) Are there poor transsexuals who if were under different economic circumstances would not want to make the transistion out of their own free will?

Young people and sexual exploitation

There is some evidence that demand for underage sex workers (girls, boys and transgenders) has increased in some places in the last decade because young people are perceived as being less likely to have HIV. (This underlines the need for health education to encourage safe sex practices with all partners rather than cosidering the chances of potential partners' HIV status.)

It is true that economic conditions in some parts of the world mean that there are large numbers of impoverished children who sell sex, among other things, to survive in informal economies. But the reality of young people's involvement in selling sex is more complex than the often sensationalising media images.

Health workers should understand that child exploitation and adolescents selling sex are different issues which give rise to different needs. Unfortunately, there is no simple formula for understanding young people, gender and sexuality, either at policy level or when working with individual young people. Some issues require multidisciplinary responses which include health promotion and social work skills, while some require the same responses as adult sex work, even if that presents cultural challenges to professionals.

Service providers must consider their duties and responsibilities to children and adolescents and how to carry out those duties. Staff should be trained to deal with young people and know which local services are likely to deal appropriately with young people who sell sex.

Where young people sell sex and live away from their families they are sometimes in environments which, although not ideal, may provide forms of social support which are not immediately apparent to service providers. This has important implications for agencies who are considering taking steps which may result in a young person being removed from that environment and placed in another. Will it be better, and on whose terms?

The definition of a child varies legally and culturally between countries and cultures. "Child" prostitution statistics are certainly inflated by lobby groups, who include young people older than the legal or culturally acceptable age of consent in their definition of "child".These statistics blur a distinction which is important for service providers who must develop appropriate responses to the different needs of prepubescent children and young men and women aged 18 years.


On average, do upper/middle class men transition later in life than their poorer counterparts? Are upper/middle class men more afraid of being social outcasts?

In most Asean countries, Most if not all Tg's transition young. It's hard to explain but that's how it's been for decades. Social standings has nothing to do with it. Upper class, middle class, poor..everyone just transitions young and not for prostitution purposes. ;) I think it's more because of peer pressure. When a group of young boys (ts in the making) see friends transitioning..everyone just joins in.

In Japan alone and fairly recent, There are reports of a growth industry in paid sex with young girls in their mid-teens. The girls meet older men through publicly advertised phone clubs or in flats for "enjo kosai", which means compensated dating. There is no question here of coercion or homelessness and hunger. The proceeds go to buying designer label clothes.


Would the family of a upper/middle class transsexual accept their child's decision more than a poor transsexual's family would? Is it the other way around?

I think it's the other way around. Honestly, when you havent eaten 3 meals a day for days on end, your lights been cut off cos your parents havent paid the light bill, someone in your family is sick due to poor living conditions etc...Most likely the poor families would be more accepting of their child's transitioning just for the sake not to go hungry.


How big of a problem do you think is human trafficking, forced prostitution and sex slaves in the world? Are WE to blame for any of it? Even a small amount? Do we perpetuate an industry that 21st centurty slaves are forced to work in? If prostituion is legalized would forced prostitution be put under control?

Trafficking

Sex workers who want to work in more lucrative markets often travel to do so, often illegally and often with the assistance of others. Sometimes they are assisted by individuals but often highly organised brokers make unfair profit by providing transport, the necessary paperwork for the journey (passports, visas, letters of support) accommodation and employment in the destination country. Typically brokers recoup their fees by taking the woman's earnings in the destination country. Often her freedom is limited until the debt is paid and even beyond that. This form of labour contract, debt bondage, is illegal but not uncommon.

Recently, women of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet states who have travelled to Western Europe and beyond have been subject to these kinds of arrangements, as are some of the women and transsexuals who travel from Latin America and Africa and countries where poverty is endemic or those where leaving is difficult such as Haiti or Cuba.

Stories of girl children being sold into prostitution are familiar to most people. In some cases women and children are forced or tricked by net works of professional brokers into travelling to work as prostitutes. Others make arrangements voluntarily but find that the brokers have lied about standards of employment and accommodation and the legality of the documents they will provide. The latter typically receive less sympathy. In both instances, women and (in much fewer cases) men exist in slavery-like conditions in the destination country until they are deported, or freed.

In most cases where sex workers reach an otherwise inaccessible country and find opportunities to earn a lot of money, they are satisfied with what they see as a good service, even if the arrangements do not reach standards which are either acceptable to others or legal. Despite sensationalist press and influential "anti-trafficking" lobby groups which disseminate information about the worst scenarios, most arrangements are voluntary and many are, in fact, completed to the satisfaction of the sex worker involved.

The problems for sex workers who have been "trafficked" are similar in many ways to those of other labourers who travel from poor to rich countries for work.These include extreme vulnerability to exploitation or even enslavement and little or no access to health and welfare services. In some places there are organisations which provide assistance for such immigrants, although this is usually seen as different from that offered to other immigrants.

While there is a clear duty to try to assist anyone being held against their will, project staff should not take actions on their own since this situation can be extremely dangerous. There should be clear procedures in services for staff members who come across people in such situations.

When sex workers are subject to agreements with brokers there are addi tional obstacles to health promotion. They may not be permitted to leave where they are working or staying, or they may be escorted when they do so. Because there is risk to the brokers if police or immigration authorities are notified, they may be deliberately prevented from making contact with anyone in the destination country. Nevertheless, in many places outreach workers have had successes at reaching women on contracts and even gained enough trust to enable them to visit health services.

Organised networks do not appear to control the movement of men for sex work from poorer to richer countries, although there are reports of boys being trafficked, particularly within Asia.

Sex tourism

Awareness of exploitation by tourists who travel to developing countries for cheaper or exotic sex has also increased. Some countries are introducing laws which enable them to prosecute their own citizens for crimes committed abroad. Tour operators who organise sex tours are also being targeted for prosecution.

Some governments and NGOs provide safe sex advice to travellers. There are a number of projects which work with sex workers in developing countries whose clients are Western tourists. These projects often arrange language classes aimed at increasing a sex worker's ability to negotiate safe services with her or his client.

Damn! This is just too long a post. LOL Is this a research term paper you're working on? :lol:

~Kisses.

HTG

[MacShreach]

How big of a problem do you think is human trafficking, forced prostitution and sex slaves in the world? Are WE to blame for any of it? Even a small amount? Do we perpetuate an industry that 21st centurty slaves are forced to work in? If prostituion is legalized would forced prostitution be put under control?


Many big questions there Johnie, and I think you know most of the answers. As far as the above are concerned:

Huge and growing; Yes; A lot; Yes we do; There are large parts of the world where prostitution is completely legal, so there are ways to research that. I don't have specific figures but I do know that in the UK where prostitution is quasi-legal (it's not actually an offence but there are loads of offences surrounding it) human trafficking and the practise of loan-sharks targeting vulnerable young women and turning them to prostitution is becoming a real problem; in Spain where prostitution is fully legal this appears to be much less of an issue.

Essentially prohibition always drives the supply of a desired commodity into the hands of organised crime. You get what you legislate for.

[Ecstatic]

Outstanding response, Hara. You make most of the points I would've made in response. A few additional comments:


Although, I do NOT have any concrete numbers on the population of transsexuals by country, why does it seem that the poor countries spawn more transsexuals, atleast in porn and on escort sites, than more developed western countries? The famous and beautiful South American and South East Asian girls, in my opinion, dominate the escort/porn business.
Given the nature of transsexualism, the various types of transgenderism, and the stealth characteristics of most transsexuals, hard numbers are, pardon the expression, hard to come by. Estimates of the ratio of transgendered to cisgendered (those gender identifying with their birth sex) in the general population range from 1:10000 to as high as 1:250. Some fairly reliable statistics have appeared for certain countries; in Thailand for instance there's appproximately a quarter million ladyboys (katoey) in a population of 65 million, which comes to 1:260. The Philippines has a similar ratio, upwards of 300,000 transsexuals in a population of 85,000,000 or 1:280. Both are SE Asian countries, yet they are quite distinct culturally, Thailand being 95% Buddhist and the only nation in SE Asia to have never been colonized by a European power, and Philippines being 90% Christian and 81% Roman Catholic. Native attitudes regarding transsexuals differ extensively between the two countries, yet the ratio of transsexuals to the general population is quite close. Does this reflect a natural distribution globally? Much research needs to be done to determine this.


Through sex tourism, are westerners to blame for the over representation of poorer ethnic groups in the escort business? Or would those ethnic groups choose to transsition at the same rates regardless of western sex tourism? (What came first, the chicken or the egg?)
Depends in large measure upon the country in question; in SE Asia this is definitely true, though the ladyboy tradition extends far back into history there, long before any Western sex tourism began. Many Americans and Europeans travel to Bangkok and other cities largely for the sex trade. In Europe, as Hara indicates, the reverse happens: the sex workers travel to certain countries to work the trade there, where the demand exceeds the local supply, and because the trade in those countries is far more lucrative than in their native countries. Thus you see a huge influx of Brazilian transsexual sex workers to Spain and Italy, where their native language is similar enough to the local language that they can adapt fairly easily, and the culture exists to support the trade.

Two very illuminating films regarding the nature of being transsexual in two very different cultures are Beautiful Boxer, the story of the transition of muay Thai boxer Nong Toom into Parinya, and Princesa, the story of Fernanda, a Brazilian transsexual sex worker coming to Italy in hopes of fully transitioning into womanhood. Both are richly based in the true life experiences of their main characters, but they couldn't be more different in terms of the experiences of those characters. (Significantly, Nong Toom/Parinya was never a sex worker, while Fernanda plied her trade on the stroll every night.)

The situation in the USA is quite different again: here you see a great many (relatively speaking) transsexual immigrants who turn to the sex trade as their only means of earning significant income. (Peggy will surely elaborate--and has elsewhere--on the alternatives to sex trade that are open to young transgendered women, but the reality remains that the sex trade appears lucrative, easy, feeds the pocketbook and strokes the ego, and does not require specialized education.) Girls come to the USA speaking Portuguese, Spanish, Thai, or other languages, discover that many American men will pay 200-300 "roses" for an hour (or less) of their time, and all they have to do is enjoy sex (or pretend to do so). So the ratio of these ethnic groups to those of European background that one sees listed on Eros or CL or elsewhere is disproportionately high to the actual number of transsexuals in either group.

[Caleigh]

there is a social study going on right now in the greater NYC are into these sort of questions.

www.ndri.org/transgender


the questionaire participants anwer goes into great
detail regarding the economics and social environment
people grew up in as well as their sexual, chemical,
social habits. the most detailed and long term social
study ever done with TG/TS women

[Youngmc]

this is by far the dumbest post ive ever seen

[Caleigh]

my post in particular? Thanks! :)

i'm not sure i've ever been the best at anything before
even if it's being the dumbest. i feel so special.

[BrendaQG]

The short answer to many of your questions is no. Class and country of origin have nothing to do with who does and does not transition. Regardless of class a young TS is likley to be thrown out in to the streets and have to live on what they have. For a while If they most monetarily marketable thing one has is their body then that is what they will sell. Even after reconcling with thier parents they may stay in the business unless they find a better job.

The money that can be made is what keeps people in. It is like cocaine, highly addictive and but easier to get. Imagine a business that was like what you see advertised at 3 AM but this one was not bull. You work from home, your the boss, you can make as much or as little money as you want. Last this can be done with little or no overhead, no experience and no education. Put that way prostitution does not seem so horrible does it?

last but not least I don't know of anyone who would say that they would have transitioned against their will. If anything transition is one of the greatest exercises of free will there is. To say that you will not let anyone else, not even your sex chromosomes determine who or what you will be.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Outstanding response, Hara. You make most of the points I would've made in response. A few additional comments:


Thanks Ecstatic, Likewise! Thanks for the continuing the facts. :P

~Kisses.

HTG