City Manager Tries to Transition - Maybe gets fired...

[Vicki Richter]

LARGO, Florida - Three undecided Largo city commissioners could determine the fate of City Manager Steve Stanton tonight.

Last week, Stanton's announcement that he plans to have a sex-change operation roiled this city of 76,000, with its mobile home parks full of retirees and its feed store in the middle of downtown.

By Monday, Mayor Pat Gerard was the only member of the seven-member City Commission to say she still stands by Stanton, 48.

Three other commissioners say they intend to fire the 14-year city manager or are likely do so.

That leaves three commissioners - Gigi Arntzen, Gay Gentry and Rodney Woods - as the deciding votes. Largo's city charter requires a vote of five out of seven city commissioners to fire the city manager.

At a special meeting called to discuss Stanton, commissioners expect to face more than 500 people.

City Hall has received more than 250 e-mails about Stanton, more than 40 percent from people who identified themselves as Largo residents. Those e-mails called for his removal by a 7-to-1 ratio.

The first 520 people to arrive will be permitted to enter City Hall, with about 100 in commission chambers and the rest in the community room, staff break room and City Hall lobby.

Extra police officers will be on duty, but Chief Lester Aradi said he's not expecting an unruly crowd.

"This is a controversial issue, but we have faith that people will act accordingly," he said.

Both Stanton supporters and opponents say they plan to pack the chambers.

Charlie Martin, senior pastor at First Baptist Church of Indian Rocks, said he encouraged parishioners to attend because it's the "biggest issue facing Largo" in his 36-year tenure as pastor of the church, one of the largest in Pinellas County.

Stanton's continued employment will be devastating to Largo's reputation and future business interests, Martin said.

Moreover, he said, it would trample on the rights of religious employees to force them to call the city manager Susan, the name Stanton plans to use when he comes to work as a woman this spring.

"Do we want what's controversial or do we want what's best for Largo?" said Martin, whose church includes many members from Largo.

Brian Winfield, communications director for Equality Florida, an organization that advocates for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights, said his group will urge members to attend the meeting as well.

The discussion of Stanton's future employment is discriminatory because the topic only came up after Stanton announced plans for gender reassignment surgery, he said.

"As long as he continues to do the excellent job he's doing, there isn't any reason for his termination whatsoever," Winfield said.

A large group from the Pinellas chapter of the National Organization for Women plans to come tonight as well, Winfield said.

Tonight's meeting was called by Commissioner Mary Gray Black and could echo a bitter 2003 debate over an ordinance that would have protected gay and transgender residents and city employees.

Black was recruited to run for the commission by a leading opponent of the antidiscrimination ordinance. On Monday, she proposed placing Stanton on paid leave while the city prepares to fire him.

Black didn't return calls for comments, but in an e-mail accompanying the proposed resolution, she said, Stanton's situation "has caused stress, turmoil, distraction and work disruption" to city employees.

City staff members also are "stressed by comments, questions, and jokes made during the employees' nonworking hours," she said.

Vice Mayor Harriet Crozier said she supports Black's resolution, which is the first phase of a three-step process required by the city charter to fire Stanton.

Commissioner Andy Guyette said he may vote to fire Stanton as well.

The rest of the commission is on the fence.

"We need to determine the best course of direction for the city and our employees," Commissioner Gigi Arntzen said.

Commissioner Gay Gentry said she wanted to see how Stanton's choice will affect staffers before making a decision.

"I don't like to make my decisions in haste," Gentry said.

Meanwhile, Stanton sent an e-mail to commissioners asking them for more time.

"After 17 years with the city, I feel I should be given the courtesy to show I can still do my job and be an effective manager," wrote Stanton, who came to the city as assistant city manager in 1990 and makes $140,234 annually.

Stanton asked commissioners, before taking a public vote on whether he should be fired, to discuss the effects of a workplace transition with qualified experts, give him six months to show he can still do the job and postpone his evaluation until August.

Several commissioners initially voiced support for Stanton's personal decision, but their support for his continued employment waned after the city was flooded by negative e-mails.

The mayor said she won't be swayed by e-mails, especially since many include incorrect assumptions, including that the city is funding his sex change operation.

Human Resources director Susan Sinz said the city's health insurance policy doesn't cover surgery, hormone treatments, electrolysis or anything else regarding the gender transition process.

"I'll be making this decision on what I know about this person and what he's done for the city, not on assumptions based on misinformation," Gerard said.

That's wrong. If anything, hold a special election and let the people vote on it.

[NadiaUSA]

That's wrong. If anything, hold a special election and let the people vote on it.

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry. If he can do his job as female then he should be fine.
Many states already have laws to protect gay and transgender from this kind of hate.
Thats why I think having votes on gay marriage is unfair. It should not be left for bigots to vote for discrimitating against people.
I include many articles on these things on my website at
http://www.orangecountytranssexuals.com/Shemale_News.htm

Regards,
Nadia

[NadiaUSA]

Here is an excerpt of my site:

....."New Jersey's new law prohibits discriminatory practices in employment, housing and public accommodations based on "gender identity or expression" -- the legislative language that covers transgender people.

Once signed, the state will join California, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Minnesota, New Mexico and Rhode Island in legislating statewide transgender-inclusive nondiscrimination protections"....

[Vicki Richter]

That's wrong. If anything, hold a special election and let the people vote on it.

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry. If he can do his job as female then he should be fine.
Many states already have laws to protect gay and transgender from this kind of hate.
Thats why I think having votes on gay marriage is unfair. It should not be left for bigots to vote for discrimitating against people.
I include many articles on these things on my website at
http://www.orangecountytranssexuals.com/Shemale_News.htm

Regards,
Nadia

Wow you're a hottie.

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry.


So, in this country, the government should have the RIGHT to force citizen consensus to accept certain representation? That's not democracy, that's foolish!

Citizens have the right to demand special and recall elections if their elected officials are not meeting their expectations. That's Democracy!

These people are county commissioners. They are not political executives. They serve at the pleasure of the people who elected them. If they don't execute the publics will, they are replaced.

[signupjustforthis]

That’s complete nonsense. You don’t live in a direct democracy, you live in a republic that uses representative democracy as political system.

You don’t get to do whatever the hell you want, if someone is voted in for a certain set amount of time, you are just going to have to live with that person unless s/he commits a crime.

If you believe in direct democracy, than how come Bush is still in office?
I would bet that most Americans want him recalled.

Guess what, you can’t recall him unless he is impeached.

You cant impeach him unless he commits a treason.

So too bad if most Americans don’t like the job he is doing right now. They voted him in, fully knowing that he will rule for 4 years , doing whatever the hell an executive branch of the federal government is constitutionally allowed to do.

You don’t recall someone just because you find out you don’t like how they live. That's not democracy, that's fucking anarchy.

[NadiaUSA]

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry.


So, in this country, the government should have the RIGHT to force citizen consensus to accept certain representation? That's not democracy, that's foolish!

Citizens have the right to demand special and recall elections if their elected officials are not meeting their expectations. That's Democracy!

These people are county commissioners. They are not political executives. They serve at the pleasure of the people who elected them. If they don't execute the publics will, they are replaced.


So likewise are you saying that if this took place in the 60's or 70's and a person was black or a woman, the public would have been right to give them the boot based on a majority voted bigotry.
I am glad enough people dont think like you in order that we may have laws protecting us from your stupidity.

[signupjustforthis]

People think Canada is liberal. But its pretty unfortunate that transgender is not included as a prohibited ground for discrimination under our federal laws. Even in many provincial human rights code, gender identity is not included as a prohibited ground for discrimination. So I would think that we still have a lot of idiots like Tfan who thinks that tyranny of the majority can be exercised at all costs against transsexuals.

[specialk]

That's wrong. If anything, hold a special election and let the people vote on it.

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry. If he can do his job as female then he should be fine.
Many states already have laws to protect gay and transgender from this kind of hate.
Thats why I think having votes on gay marriage is unfair. It should not be left for bigots to vote for discrimitating against people.
I include many articles on these things on my website at
http://www.orangecountytranssexuals.com/Shemale_News.htm

Regards,
Nadia

Wow you're a hottie.


LOL...uuummm what were we talking about????

I agree with you Vicki!

That’s complete nonsense. You don’t live in a direct democracy, you live in a republic that uses representative democracy as political system.

LMAO @ that desperate angle.

"Representative democracy" doesn't exist in local government. At the local level, which is what this story is about (if you bothered to pay attention to what you were reading), it's direct democracy. Or do you have an electoral college in your town? :lol:


You don’t get to do whatever the hell you want, if someone is voted in for a certain set amount of time, you are just going to have to live with that person commits a crime.

No you don't. Some of you leftists are so desperate to win an argument, you'll say anything in order to do so.

In California, we impeached Gray Davis just because we didn't like him. No crime, we just didn't like him because he's funny lookin.

Happy now?


If you believe in direct democracy, than how come Bush is still in office?

Because thats how the wise, Christian founding fathers said it's best.


I would bet that most Americans want him recalled.

Then do something about it!

How about another "NON-BINDING Resolution"? :lol: :lol: :lol:


You cant impeach him unless he commits a treason.

Dear sir, that's rubbish! Poppycock, old chap!


So too bad if most Americans don’t like the job he is doing right now. They voted him in, fully knowing that he will rule for 4 years , doing whatever the hell an executive branch of the federal government is constitutionally allowed to do.

High crimes and misdeamenors. Hell, you limp wristed lefties think he's a war criminal anyway. Why not call a senate hearing on that?

Because youre soft and weak. THATS WHY! :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter


You don’t recall someone just because you find out you don’t like how they live.

Better tell Gray Davis! LMAO

So likewise are you saying that if this took place in the 60's or 70's and a person was black or a woman, the public would have been right to give them the boot based on a majority voted bigotry.
I am glad enough people dont think like you in order that we may have laws protecting us from your stupidity.

Trying the old straw man approach, are we?

The people of that town have the right to special election on the grounds that they dont like the people representing them.

If you disagree with that, then what you're talking about is a dictatorship where the government has the right to FORCE itself onto law-abiding citizens.

Which is far more dangerous.

While I do not agree with bigotry, I defend the idiots right to it.

[peggygee]

Florida Non-Discrimination Law

Gender identity protected? In some cases
No provision of Florida law explicitly addresses discrimination based on gender identity. However, a Florida court has ruled that an individual with gender dysphoria is within the disability coverage of the Florida Human Rights Act, as well as the portions of the act that prohibit discrimination based on perceived disability.

Sexual orientation protected? No

There is no statewide non-discrimination law that includes protections based on sexual orientation.

Citations: Smith v. City of Jacksonville Corr. Inst., 1991 Fla. Div. Adm., Hear. LEXIS 5990 Fla. Div. Admin. Hrgs. 1991).

[signupjustforthis]

You know what is even more dangerous? We actually have people who claim to be a fan of transsexuals AND, get this…

They think transsexuals should have no rights. Oh they don't say that, they might not even admit that. Look at their voting behaviours, ladies. You can tell what a man is like by looking at how he votes. In this case, they support policies that believe that transsexuals should be rejected, fired, recalled at the whim of the majority.

I am always amazed at these right wing guys, and there are a lot of them, who would support and vote for the exact type of Jerry Falwell personality type that makes life miserable for transsexuals.

Its an interesting phenomenon. I am not bashing all conservatives, I think that's silly, my bf is conservative. No hating on conservatives ,thats not me and I apologize if anyone is offended. But I am a total leftist, true. Hey, if I am not going to support politicians that at least pretend to give a shit about me, who else are going to look after MY RIGHT TO EXIST, (despite what the majority think)?

Transsexuals should be careful about who they are dealing with and do they really want to be around guys who vote for fascists who would put transsexuals in jail if average Joe and Mary decides that’s a good thing for public morality. </lecture>

You know what is even more dangerous? We actually have people who claim to be a fan of transsexuals AND, get this…

They think transsexuals should no rights. They should be rejected, fired, recalled at the whim of the majority.

LMAO! Another straw man! LMAO! "No rights"? Come to hysterics, have we? LMAO!


I am always amazed at these right wing guys, and there are a lot of them, who would support and vote for the exact type of Jerry Falwell personality type that makes life miserable for transsexuals.

Its an interesting phenomenon. My bf is right winger too, I am a total leftist. Hey, if I am not going to support politicians that at least pretend to give a shit about me, who else are going to look after MY RIGHT TO EXIST, (despite what the majority think)?

Transsexuals should be careful about who they are dealing with and do they really want to be around guys who vote for fascists who would put transsexuals in jail if average Joe and Mary decides that’s a good thing for public morality.

LMAO! So you're beef is that you're in jail because of Bush? Or what transexual is in jail simply for being transexual? LMAO

[signupjustforthis]

In this case, we don’t know what the procedural for dismissal. The commission seems to have a right to dismiss her, and I don’t even know if the position is democratically elected by the citizens.

But my problem with you is your belief that elected representatives should be allowed to be recalled because of their identities.

The majority has no right to discriminate the minority. Everyone should have an equal chance to be elected and if a politician is found to be a transsexual or is becoming a transsexual, that’s not subjected to a popular contest. POeople should not be discriminated against because of who they are, if you don't like your representative to be a transsexual, than you can vote her/him out at the next election. But when you elected a representative to repesent you, they are GIVEN the right to represent until the term limit is served to the full extent. If you dont like the job Bush is doing, you can't just recall him. That's not a healthy foundation for democracy nor is it fair or rule based. The job description has nothing to do with personal traits or gender identity.

I don’t think a governor should be recalled simply because he was gay.

That’s why you have three different branch of government. The governor can’t do whatever s/he wants and his power is controlled by the constitution. At the same time, I also think it is stupid that the citizenry can so easily recall someone they elected simply because the leader made a decision or an unpopular announcement (that he is gay).

But my problem with you is your belief that elected representatives should be allowed to be recalled because of their identities.

It's the county commission that is subject to recall if they are not serving the publics interest. When you take away the citizens right of recall, regardless of reason, then what you're talking about is dictatorship. Dictatorship is far more dangerous.


The majority has no right to discriminate the minority. Everyone should have an equal chance to be elected and if a politician is found to be a transsexual or is becoming a transsexual, that’s not subjected to a popular contest. The job description has nothing to do with personal traits or gender identity.

One thing you should understand. We're not talking about impeaching or recalling the city manager. We're talking about recalling those who appointed him then refuse to remove him. But I'll continue along your lines. The government, except on right to life issues (ie murder, abortion, assisted suicide) and other certain issues, has no place legislating morality. People have the right of freedom of expression. When you talk about forcing representation onto citizens, you are talking contrary to our constitution and them are fightin words!

They could just impeach the guy because they don't like him.

[specialk]

This thread is officially ruined...thanks TFool! :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn

Baggup people, I made extra :lol:

Stop jocking, vest boy.

STOP JOCKING!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[signupjustforthis]

The president cannot be recalled just because that is the wish of most Americans. The democrats can’t impeach Bush unless he commits a treason/lie to the state. He did, of course, but thats another discussion.


"The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.".


Article 2, section 4 of the Constitution.

But he can’t be impeached because you don’t like the fact that he is a Christian or a heterosexual.


http://www.teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=2

[specialk]

Stop jocking, vest boy.

STOP JOCKING!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The president cannot be recalled just because that is the wish of most Americans. The democrats can’t impeach Bush unless he commits a treason/lie to the state. He did, of course, but thats another discussion.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and draw the line for you again.

We're talking about county commissioners and a city manager. You're quoting constitutional law which does not DIRECTLY control local charters.


But he can’t be impeached because you don’t like the fact that he is a Christian or a heterosexual.


http://www.teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=2

COUNTY COMMISSIONERS can be recalled simply because we don't like them.

[signupjustforthis]

Sure, I will give you that. It might even be legal to recall them, the scale of political power is definitely narrower. But, the same principle applies, the absence of direct recall for whatever reason is not the absence of democracy, unless you believe that the American constitution is not democratic because it forbids Americans to impeach bush based on his sexuality. I am also sure that many states don’t have direct recall, Joe Lieberman could be recalled by now if that was the case.


But it’s pretty funny that if you think direct recall is such an important source of democracy but your constitution wouldn’t even allow you to recall the most powerful person running your country. It's time to rewrite the constitution, my friend.

[chefmike]

That's wrong. If anything, hold a special election and let the people vote on it.

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry. If he can do his job as female then he should be fine.
Many states already have laws to protect gay and transgender from this kind of hate.
Thats why I think having votes on gay marriage is unfair. It should not be left for bigots to vote for discrimitating against people.
I include many articles on these things on my website at
http://www.orangecountytranssexuals.com/Shemale_News.htm

Regards,
Nadia

Great post, Nadia.

And pay no mind to idiots like TFool, what can you expect from cretins who get their news from FOX, and their worldview from right-wing fanatics like Limbaugh, Hannity, et al.

Sure, I will give you that. It might even be legal to recall them, the scale of political power is definitely narrower. But, the same principle applies, the absence of direct recall for whatever reason is not the absence of democracy, unless you believe that the American constitution is not democratic because it forbids Americans to impeach bush based on his sexuality. I am also sure that many states don’t have direct recall, Joe Lieberman could be recalled by now if that was the case.

Yes the same principles apply which is why their is representation of states and population (House and Senate). It's called "States Rights".


But it’s pretty funny that if you think direct recall is such an important source of democracy but your constitution wouldn’t even allow you to recall the most powerful person running your country. It's time to rewrite the constitution, my friend.

Recall is important which is why it's a state and local government rights issue. Rights which the American constitution guarantees.

And pay no mind to idiots like TFool, what can you expect from cretins who get their news from FOX, and their worldview from right-wing fanatics like Limbaugh, Hannity, et al.


It looks like my jockers follow me wherever I go. Stop jocking, bitch!

LMAO

STOP JOCKING!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[signupjustforthis]

I should really get a picture of myself if anyone is ever going to compliment me or pay attention to me. *sniff* *sniff*. :roll:

[Alison Faraday]

I should really get a picture of myself if anyone is ever going to compliment me or pay attention to me. *sniff* *sniff*. :roll:

((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))

Aly xx

[signupjustforthis]

*hugs * haha i was just joking. =p. thanks though.

[Alison Faraday]

*hugs * haha i was just joking. =p. thanks though.

I see....

[signupjustforthis]

well, i dont want to sound like i am complainning , but i like your pic =D

I am not butt ugly or anything, I will eventually post a pic unless i am die or something :sniff:

[Caleigh]

not just hot, hot with a brain!

Time to move this to politics and religion

[BrendaQG]

It's the south, why be surprised when the people are biggots.

I hate it but the people who say "it's democracy" have a point. There is no law anywhere mandating that any minority must be elected and remain in office. Different rules apply to political jobs like this one. If it were any other job I would say this was totally unfair.

I mean if we take non discrimination law to far we end up infringing on the rights of other people to live their lives. The rights of the voters of that town to not have a TS govern (ok manage) their city far outweigh the right of that single person to live her life.

The public interest is just more important. What we need is to win hearts and minds. Make a more tolerant society. Until then TS's and political office will not mix well.

[Felicia Katt]

Everyone here is apparently missing the point. He was hired, not elected. He served as a faithful employee for 17 years, getting good reviews and doing an exemplary job. He has done nothing to support his being fired, except announce his intention to transition. If he were an elected official, then he could expect to serve or not serve at the whim of the voters, no matter how capricious but he is a simple civil servant, not a politician. Florida may be an "at will" state, and his contract may specify that he can be let go for any reason, but not for one that is violative of public policy, like this kind of rank, raw discrimination should be considered. But the laws in Florida don't include protection for transgenders. The elected representative are the ones subject to recall or ouster at the next election. They answer to the voice of the people, but shoudn't when they are an ignorant mob. But sadly, they will probably go ahead and fire him and keep the vocal bigots happy and their jobs.

FK

[BrendaQG]

Ah yes she was hired wasn't she.

She was hired (really appointed and confirmed but that's just language) by elected officials. The job is political. While she is not directly elected she is hired by people who do feel political pressure and who will either go to bat for her or act in their own interest, nay act to do what the public want's.

Most of the time we want the gov't to do what the public wants....well sometimes that will not break our way. There are comparisons to civil rights and alll but that's different. It should be obvious how one person loosing their political job is different from discriminatory laws.

We have to be realisitc in our expectations. As much as I admit this sucks I really don't see how this woman in that political environment can keep her job.

It's the south, why be surprised when the people are biggots.

I hate it but the people who say "it's democracy" have a point. There is no law anywhere mandating that any minority must be elected and remain in office. Different rules apply to political jobs like this one. If it were any other job I would say this was totally unfair.

I mean if we take non discrimination law to far we end up infringing on the rights of other people to live their lives. The rights of the voters of that town to not have a TS govern (ok manage) their city far outweigh the right of that single person to live her life.

The public interest is just more important.

You are wise in your beliefs, young Skywalker. Transexuals are not going to gain acceptance by the rule of law but by the rule of right and righteousness. When the radical left makes efforts to force their beliefs on the radical middle, the leftists will lose. As a conservatarian republican, even I hate to admit it.


What we need is to win hearts and minds. Make a more tolerant society. Until then TS's and political office will not mix well.

Word! This is your greatest post ever and one of THEE greatest posts on HA, bar none.

But sadly, they will probably go ahead and fire him and keep the vocal bigots happy and their jobs.



And legally, too. You can't use the law to make people like you.

[olite71]

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry.


So, in this country, the government should have the RIGHT to force citizen consensus to accept certain representation? That's not democracy, that's foolish!

Citizens have the right to demand special and recall elections if their elected officials are not meeting their expectations. That's Democracy!

These people are county commissioners. They are not political executives. They serve at the pleasure of the people who elected them. If they don't execute the publics will, they are replaced.


That's not how it works. We live in a Constitutional democracy where the vote of the people is also subject to the laws codified in the Constitution, the U.S. Code and the various state codes. For this reason you just can't have a bunch of people in a county vote to reinstate slavery b/c of majority rule.

Majority vote doesn't make things right....If that were in the case then in the year 200 bc the populace would have declared the world flat and that would be that.

Democracy is a very good thing with an educated populace, and just as evil as dictatorship with an uneducated one...Realizing this, the founders of this country in their wisdom, created the very constitution we have--to protect the rights of minorities everywhere---This was in their minds--this is what caused the "Great Compromise" that led to the creation of the bicameral legislature--so that little New Jersey could have as many senators as Godzilla-sized Virginia.

[olite71]

That's wrong. If anything, hold a special election and let the people vote on it.

No special election, he has rights. Bigots dont get to vote to take away a job based on their bigotry. If he can do his job as female then he should be fine.
Many states already have laws to protect gay and transgender from this kind of hate.
Thats why I think having votes on gay marriage is unfair. It should not be left for bigots to vote for discrimitating against people.
I include many articles on these things on my website at
http://www.orangecountytranssexuals.com/Shemale_News.htm

Regards,
Nadia

Wow you're a hottie.

And she has a sound philosophical point to boot. This is precisely why the issue of "popular soverignty" for new states was so controversial in the 1850s...because it confronted the advocates of democracy with a horrible truth--that is, the "majority" could vote for something fundamentally wrong, like slavery.

It was what De Tocqueville in his masterpiece "Democracy in America" called, the "Tyranny of the Majority."

Democracy is a very good thing with an educated populace, and just as evil as dictatorship with an uneducated one...Realizing this, the founders of this country in their wisdom, created the very constitution we have--to protect the rights of minorities everywhere---This was in their minds--this is what caused the "Great Compromise" that led to the creation of the bicameral legislature--so that little New Jersey could have as many senators as Godzilla-sized Virginia.

I knew you viewed this thread late, but this has been covered. A lot of what you're saying is true, but the base of what you've said is false. Where you're headed is the 14th ammendment, which you can cut down to "Equal Protection Under the Law" But equal protection for who? On issues such as gay marriage, abortion and gun control, federal law does not always trump States Rights, which is why this constitution you speak of allows for representation by not only popular vote (House of Representatives), but also SENATE (States Rights). No matter where you stand on certain issues, States Rights are working for you. If you don't support Gay Marriage you are S.O.L. in Maryland but COOL in Utah. If you do believe in Gay Marriage, then the opposite. Abortion is similar in parental notification and waiting periods. Same with Gun Rights.

Our Christian Founding Fathers formed our government this way so that the tyranny of Imperialism that existed in Colonial America could not manifest itself in Washington DC. That is, they can't come from way over there and tell us how to live way over here.

At least, not on all issues.

[olite71]

Democracy is a very good thing with an educated populace, and just as evil as dictatorship with an uneducated one...Realizing this, the founders of this country in their wisdom, created the very constitution we have--to protect the rights of minorities everywhere---This was in their minds--this is what caused the "Great Compromise" that led to the creation of the bicameral legislature--so that little New Jersey could have as many senators as Godzilla-sized Virginia.

I knew you viewed this thread late, but this has been covered. A lot of what you're saying is true, but the base of what you've said is false. Where you're headed is the 14th ammendment, which you can cut down to "Equal Protection Under the Law" But equal protection for who? On issues such as gay marriage, abortion and gun control, federal law does not always trump States Rights, which is why this constitution you speak of allows for representation by not only popular vote (House of Representatives), but also SENATE (States Rights). No matter where you stand on certain issues, States Rights are working for you. If you don't support Gay Marriage you are S.O.L. in Maryland but COOL in Utah. If you do believe in Gay Marriage, then the opposite. Abortion is similar in parental notification and waiting periods. Same with Gun Rights.

Our Christian Founding Fathers formed our government this way so that the tyranny of Imperialism that existed in Colonial America could not manifest itself in Washington DC. That is, they can't come from way over there and tell us how to live way over here.

At least, not on all issues.


You also make some valid points, but my fundamental point is this, there are certain inalienable rights--some of those were listed in the Bill of Rights and some of them have been "codified" by consensus. One of those, is, I believe, the "merit system." Meaning a person should be chosen for a job or should retain a job based on an evaluation of their merits at carrying out that job.


Now if the job is one that you can only come by through election--then fine---if the people turn the person out, they turn them out. Nobody has a right to demand they give a reason. But elections are governed by laws and due process and so is removal.

If this person is to be removed it should be for legitimate reasons based on merit.

If this person is to run for election to the post next time around and the people vote them out b/c they don't like transsexuals, then that's the way it is.


But holding a "special election" for spurious reasons runs counter to the spirit of the law. You run a "special election" when someone is caught embezzling--or is incompetent at their job.

I haven't read the law in this case, but I can't imagine it says: "Special elections can be held any time, at any place, and for any reason."

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

You also make some valid points, but my fundamental point is this, there are certain inalienable rights--some of those were listed in the Bill of Rights and some of them have been "codified" by consensus. One of those, is, I believe, the "merit system." Meaning a person should be chosen for a job or should retain a job based on an evaluation of their merits at carrying out that job.

Well for a lot of people, character is more important than job performance. I'm included in this. I voted for George W Bush in 2004 not because I thought he was an A+ student, but because I saw a devoted husband, great father and a Christian conservative republican.

I don't care how much a man makes or what he drives. I don't even care how successful he is at work compared to how successful he is at home.


Now if the job is one that you can only come by through election--then fine---if the people turn the person out, they turn them out. Nobody has a right to demand they give a reason. But elections are governed by laws and due process and so is removal.

If this person is to be removed it should be for legitimate reasons based on merit.

Think about what "Merit" means to different people. To me, it's not just showing up to work on time and doing your job. To me, merit is being a good spouse and parent.


If this person is to run for election to the post next time around and the people vote them out b/c they don't like transsexuals, then that's the way it is.

But holding a "special election" for spurious reasons runs counter to the spirit of the law. You run a "special election" when someone is caught embezzling--or is incompetent at their job.

Spurious? Think about what you mean by that. Is perjury spurious? How about stealing a pack of gum? How about cheating on a spouse? How about abandoning a spouse? How about abandoning your children? About about domestic abuse? How about substance abuse?

My point is that "merit" is bigger than just doing your job, especially in political life and in upper corporate America. Abandoning children and spouses is a far bigger crime than perjury, in my book.

I'm not from Largo, but I'm sure the good people of that city can testify on this man's character. From what I know, this man had strong gender identity confusion since he was a child, yet he chose to make a LIFE PROMISE when he got married and an even BIGGER promise when he chose to have his now 13 year old son.

When he made those choices he made commitments. While the people of Largo can't force him to keep his word, they can refuse to support him, especially with their hard earned tax-dollars.

The more I read this story, the more he appears to be a bad representative of transexualism. The big crime here is not that he is transexual, but that he appears to be a bad person of spurious character.


I haven't read the law in this case, but I can't imagine it says: "Special elections can be held any time, at any place, and for any reason."

Maybe not everywhere, but the people should have the power to decapitate local governments when they get out of line with the populace.

[muhmuh]

I mean if we take non discrimination law to far we end up infringing on the rights of other people to live their lives. The rights of the voters of that town to not have a TS govern (ok manage) their city far outweigh the right of that single person to live her life.

that doesnt make any sense... he got the job because of his qualification and political views ... neither will change along with his sex


Well for a lot of people, character is more important than job performance. I'm included in this.

and you guys wonder why the us are fubar

I mean if we take non discrimination law to far we end up infringing on the rights of other people to live their lives. The rights of the voters of that town to not have a TS govern (ok manage) their city far outweigh the right of that single person to live her life.

that doesnt make any sense... he got the job because of his qualification and political views ... neither will change along with his sex


Well for a lot of people, character is more important than job performance. I'm included in this.

and you guys wonder why the us are fubar

America still dominates the world. Sorry to break your heart.

[BrendaQG]

It makes perfect sense.

In our representative republic when most white southerners who more or less outnumbereed the blacks thought it was OK to have jim crow laws. Such Laws were passed by the elected representatives. Was it right, nio, was it fair,no but it was legal, it was democraccy in action.

It took the courts standing up and saying that black people's rights could not be abridged just because it was popular to do so.

We TS's have a basic right to work. for a private sector job or a non-political govt job that works well. For a job like city manager which is pratically the real mayor of the town...that's something else. Voters have to be able to say who will lead and run thier town. If they are biggots they will want a Ts fired. The lesson for us is if you want a political job like that go to a community which is liberal enough to accept you.

There is no way the born again evangelical Christian Conservatives who live in that town are going to accept her.

There is no way the born again evangelical Christian Conservatives who live in that town are going to accept her.


That's a stretch of conclusion. I don't support this guy because he is a bad person. Don't blindly support this guy simply because he is transgender. At the heart of this is his character. Boys want a mother and a father, not 2 mothers. When he chose to have this kid, he made that commitment. Boys need FATHERS to teach them to be men and if we had more fathers in this world, there wouldn't be so many fucked up men.

Don't support this guy just because he is transexual. He's a bad person and you'll eventually have to run away from supporting him.

[Caleigh]

WTF are you DOING on this board TFan??!!??!!

WTF are you DOING on this board TFan??!!??!!

Typing.

[Legend]

As usual, this individual looks masculine with no hint of femininity. Why transition if you look like Dick Van Dyke? Why transition at 50 if you've lived most of your life as a man? Why jeopardize your job like that? He/she is never going to look like a woman. So therefore he'll probably never be accepted as one.

But I'm sure the older-manly so called transsexuals are proud.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/2/21/225502.html

Very ignorant comment,i think it isn't about trying to look l,ike a woman but how you feel inside and happy with yourself not caring what people like you think.

[signupjustforthis]

WTF are you DOING on this board TFan??!!??!!

Typing.

Why don't you go post on some christian republican messageboard instead? this forum is full of immoral people, you don't want your clean christian mind to be polluted by the deviant people who access this board.

[truplaya4real]

As usual, this individual looks masculine with no hint of femininity. Why transition if you look like Dick Van Dyke? Why transition at 50 if you've lived most of your life as a man? Why jeopardize your job like that? He/she is never going to look like a woman. So therefore he'll probably never be accepted as one.

But I'm sure the older-manly so called transsexuals are proud.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/2/21/225502.html

Very ignorant comment,i think it isn't about trying to look l,ike a woman but how you feel inside and happy with yourself not caring what people like you think.

Well it's my opinion and I'm against older transitioners. I think it's a joke for a relatively straight masculine man to suddenly decide to become a woman after living decades as a husband, a father, a former college quaterback. Do you think anyone is going to accept this person as a woman when "she" clearly looks like the typical father of 2 next door? It does nothing to help other transitioners who want acceptance but what it does do is give the media a bad respresentation of transsexualism.

As usual, this individual looks masculine with no hint of femininity. Why transition if you look like Dick Van Dyke? Why transition at 45 if you've lived most of your life as a man? Why jeopardize your job like that? He/she is never going to look like a woman. So therefore he'll probably never be accepted as one.

But I'm sure the older-manly so called transsexuals are proud.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/2/21/225502.html

Childish, dude.

[signupjustforthis]

I am in my early 20s and yeah, it would be nice if all transsexuals look hot and young and sexy.

But the reality is not pretty. Not everyone is like us. Alot of people couldnt come out for various reasons.

It doesn't just happen, people live with this problem all their lives, they didn't suddenly become a woman just because it appears "sudden" to the outsiders. And you have alot of passable transsexuals around, does being attractive means you would get respect? Not sure about that.

If someone only respects you simply because of how you look, that's quite sad.

WTF are you DOING on this board TFan??!!??!!

Typing.

Why don't you go post on some christian republican messageboard instead? this forum is full of immoral people, you don't want your clean christian mind to be polluted by the deviant people who access this board.

There are some Christian girls on here that I dig. Just because you reject Christ doesn't mean the entire trans-community does.

Grow up.

[truplaya4real]

I am in my early 20s and yeah, it would be nice if all transsexuals look hot and young and sexy.

But the reality is not pretty.

It doesn't just happen, people live with this problem all their lives, they didn't suddenly become a woman just because it appears "sudden" to the outsiders. And you have alot of passable transsexuals around, does being attractive means you would get respect? Not sure about that.

If someone only respects you simply because of how you look, that's quite sad.
I diasgree. BrendaGQ has stated examples where these straight men have fantasies about becoming women for all the wrong reasons, he fits that description because he is already focused on getting the op.

[Legend]

As usual, this individual looks masculine with no hint of femininity. Why transition if you look like Dick Van Dyke? Why transition at 50 if you've lived most of your life as a man? Why jeopardize your job like that? He/she is never going to look like a woman. So therefore he'll probably never be accepted as one.

But I'm sure the older-manly so called transsexuals are proud.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/2/21/225502.html

Very ignorant comment,i think it isn't about trying to look l,ike a woman but how you feel inside and happy with yourself not caring what people like you think.

Well it's my opinion and I'm against older transitioners. I think it's a joke for a relatively straight masculine man to suddely decide to become a woman after living decades as a husband, a father, a former college quaterback. It does nothing to help other transitioners who want acceptance but what it does do is give the media a bad respresentation of transsexualism.

Its not like something you can just switch on and off like a light,there have been people who have live with those feelings for the rest of there life and regret it.You have no idea what those people go through so you easy say you dont feel like its right.

Everytime i person comes out it helps the community because they are free to be themselves.The media looks at transsexuals the same way older or young negatively.

[signupjustforthis]

WTF are you DOING on this board TFan??!!??!!

Typing.

Why don't you go post on some christian republican messageboard instead? this forum is full of immoral people, you don't want your clean christian mind to be polluted by the deviant people who access this board.

There are some Christian girls on here that I dig. Just because you reject Christ doesn't mean the entire trans-community does.

Grow up.


Just because someone says they are a born again Christians don’t make the moral.
So John Kerry was not moral because he is a catholic democrat? There are plenty of Christians who are much more moral than that lying liar you voted for. What does Bush think about transsexual people? WHAT? He probably doesn’t even know what a transsexual is. Anyways, enough about that your beloved president.

I didn’t reject Christ. Why do I have to reject a historical figure?

truplaya4real:

You could be right, but i don't know, from what I know, most transsexual women want to have a vagina. I mean, it is sometimes frustrating to see a married man with children do this , like, it seems a bit greedy. But..i don't know , they have their own life experiences and circumstances... It's much less stressful to transition when you are single and young and have not much responsibilities and of course the hormones work better.

Just because someone says they are a born again Christians don’t make the moral.

Ain't it da troof!


So John Kerry was not moral because he is a catholic democrat?

Nah, he just had too many positions on ALL the issues. And terrorism is such a nuisance.


There are plenty of Christians who are much more moral than that lying liar you voted for.

And there's lots who ain't! Don't let that stop you from joining up with us!


What does Bush think about transsexual people?

Haven't found any quotes.


WHAT? He probably doesn’t even know what a transsexual is. Anyways, enough about that your beloved president.

I didn’t reject Christ. Why do I have to reject a historical figure?

I reject Muhammed Ali, he's a historical figure. A bigoted, adulterous, cowardly historical figure. I hope I see him, another sinner at the house of sin. Church.

You should stop by, too. Don't let hypocrits keep you from Christ. That just means a hypocrit is closer to god than you are.

[signupjustforthis]

Well, somehow I doubt that the born again Christians like Bush would recognize, much less accepted, a transsexual. It would be hard for me to surround myself with people who think I am going to hell and I am better dead than alive. But hey, maybe that’s just the Satan in me speaking, baby. =p

Well, somehow I doubt that the born again Christians like Bush would recognize, much less accepted, a transsexual.

Your assumption indicates a fearful and suspicious nature. Which, based on how society/yourfamily percieves you, I dont blame you for.


It would be hard for me to surround myself with people who think I am going to hell and I am better dead than alive. But hey, maybe that’s just the Satan in me speaking, baby. =p

Just because they sit in church don't mean they're perfect. Especially if they claim to be.

[Felicia Katt]

WTF are you DOING on this board TFan??!!??!!

Typing.

No, stereotyping.

FK

WTF are you DOING on this board TFan??!!??!!

Typing.

No, stereotyping.

FK

:)


LOL. You're goofy. I wake up for that.

[Caleigh]

TFan wrote "I don't support this guy because he is a bad person."

He is a bad person for doing a good job for so many years? For having the guts to stand up and do something that he thought was right? He should be respected for shining a light of truth revealing the homophobic/transphobic people on that city council for what they are, back stabbing, closed minded bigots.

TFan: How do you come on this board, beat off daily to photos and video of Tgirls and then support this?!?! I'm just baffled. Are you like this because of the hidden shame you feel for having a hard on when you look at cocks?

And this whole "well, he's old and won't look good transitioned" argument is just so selfish and pathetic. We create the world around us, it doesn't just exist. You are creating a world of discrimination and bigotry when you support the repression of a person. It's pretty much that simple.

I always thought that John Lithgow's character in The World According to Garp was one of the bravest people around. It's easy to support a tgirl who passes easily, it presents almost no challenge to your superficially based value system. When a person actually struggles to achieve something impossible, THAT is courage. THAT should be applauded.

[BrendaQG]

@ truplaya4real

I sent you a PM then I saw that you remember what I wrote about this before. I will repeat what I said there for everyone's benefit.



truplaya4real wrote:
As usual, this individual looks masculine with no hint of femininity. Why transition if you look like Dick Van Dyke? Why transition at 45 if you've lived most of your life as a man? Why jeopardize your job like that? He/she is never going to look like a woman. So therefore he'll probably never be accepted as one.

But I'm sure the older-manly so called transsexuals are proud.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/2/21/225502.html


There is a explanation for the actions of older and manly transsexuals. It is controversial the word is taboo in many circles "Autogynephilia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogynephilia)". The word means love of one's self as a woman. Basically for such people transition is the culmination of a life long habit of "creative masturbation while dressed as a woman (as described by Wendy, and quoted by me in this post wendy in this post (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=15091&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=14))

The person in question is without a doubt a autogynephile and it does not surprise me that this makes news. People like this former white man control the so called "transgender community" and wield some political power. These same people also resent transsexuals who are not autogynephilic, who are young, feminine, usually passable and sometimes quite pretty. (That is why one could be almost beaten to death and it does not make a wave. If she was 40 and father of three that would make news I guarantee it would).

Yes that seems to fit this person but I don't see what it has to do with their employment rights?

Nothing at all.

"City manager" is a political job (note I have not said an elective office), a job where one can be hired and fired by directly elected officials (like being secretary of defense or something). Those people on the city council will only act to do what they think the people of their town want. It sucks and they will be discarding a good and qualified person because of their bigotry. It's their loss. But it is legal and there is nothing we, who do not live in that town can or should do about it.

:-(


To be fair autogynephilia is only part of a theory due to three psychologist Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard%2C_Bailey%2C_and_Lawrence_theory) which points out some similarity between young transsexuals (who were usually noticeably feminine boys) and homosexual males (who were usually noticeably feminine boys) then calls us "Homosexual transsexuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_transsexual)". They figured out everything but that TS's don't like being called or likened to men and should have chosen different words.

[muhmuh]

It makes perfect sense.

In our representative republic when most white southerners who more or less outnumbereed the blacks thought it was OK to have jim crow laws. Such Laws were passed by the elected representatives. Was it right, nio, was it fair,no but it was legal, it was democraccy in action.

It took the courts standing up and saying that black people's rights could not be abridged just because it was popular to do so.

We TS's have a basic right to work. for a private sector job or a non-political govt job that works well. For a job like city manager which is pratically the real mayor of the town...that's something else. Voters have to be able to say who will lead and run thier town. If they are biggots they will want a Ts fired. The lesson for us is if you want a political job like that go to a community which is liberal enough to accept you.

There is no way the born again evangelical Christian Conservatives who live in that town are going to accept her.

like its been said earlier democracy can only work with a well educated tollerant people
ignorance and intollerance on the voters side isnt democracy but something a democracy needs to protect itself from

He is a bad person for doing a good job for so many years? For having the guts to stand up and do something that he thought was right? He should be respected for shining a light of truth revealing the homophobic/transphobic people on that city council for what they are, back stabbing, closed minded bigots.

This is where you're wrong. For you, it's all about supporting "THE CAUSE" and as long as someone is representing THE CAUSE, their choices and actions don't matter. This guy is a bad person. He made a life commitment to his wife and son. Like I said earlier, I don't care if the guy was a good employee, got to work on time, cleaned his desk and refilled the coffee. To me, that is unimportant compared to being a good HUSBAND and FATHER.


TFan: How do you come on this board, beat off daily to photos and video of Tgirls and then support this?!?! I'm just baffled. Are you like this because of the hidden shame you feel for having a hard on when you look at cocks?

Yeah I don't masturbate to porn. Though it's clear you are projecting.


And this whole "well, he's old and won't look good transitioned" argument is just so selfish and pathetic. We create the world around us, it doesn't just exist. You are creating a world of discrimination and bigotry when you support the repression of a person. It's pretty much that simple.

Yeah I never said that.


I always thought that John Lithgow's character in The World According to Garp was one of the bravest people around. It's easy to support a tgirl who passes easily, it presents almost no challenge to your superficially based value system. When a person actually struggles to achieve something impossible, THAT is courage. THAT should be applauded.

LMAO! It takes courage to dishonor your LIFE PROMISE to your wife and child? LMAO!!!

I guess if it's done in the name of THE CAUSE, anything can be justified.

[signupjustforthis]

LMAO! It takes courage to dishonor your LIFE PROMISE to your wife and child? LMAO!!!





Yes, It takes courage to come clean about who you are.

It is definitely more courageous than those who are hiding to their friends and families about their interest in transsexuals.


It is definitely more courageous than someone who lie to their wives and their daughters /sons about who their “fathers” really are. If my father really feels like he is a she , I want to know about it.

Yes, It takes courage to come clean about who you are.

NOTE TO SELF: Promises to your family can be broken if you "Come clean" about who you are. LMAO. Wow, I can use this strategy to avoid doing what's right FOREVER! Why have laws? I am exempt!!!! Thanks so much! Ends justify the means. Thanks. It takes courage to disown your responsibilities.

[Caleigh]

a) you don't know that this guy didn't tell his wife about his feelings before there were married

b) in what way is transitioning a betrayl of marriage
necessarily? what are these"promises to your family" you are talking about?

c) "why have law? i am exempt" << in what way is
he breaking the law?

d) what responsibilities is he disowning?

e) you are here on this website, a guy, and yet you
maintain that you don't come here for the tgirl content?
so you just come here to flaunt your self righteous
conservative social agenda. and you only read the
articles in Playboy right?

[Caleigh]

don't get me wrong, i think it's unethical for people that know that they are tg/tv/cd not to mention it to their spouses before they get married. if you are going to share your life with someone you need to be totally honest with them about who you are and what you want to do in this life. but some people don't know themselves that well when they get married.

the flip side of that though is that i think it's unethical for all of these guys who are married to women to be looking at tgirl porn and masturbating to it (i know, you are chaste and would never do anything like that TFan) and especially if they are going out and hiring escorts on the d.l. unless they have come clean to their spouse.

[RangeHova]

The person in question is without a doubt a autogynephile and it does not surprise me that this makes news.

Without knowing this person how can you assume that this person is an autogynephile? Just because they decided to transition later in life instead of at a young age?

I think we too often assume that the young, pretty, passable girls have made the decision to live as women as being the proper decision and painting the older, less atractive, masculine looking transsexuals as being something other than transsexual. True, there are some older males that make the decision for reasons such as personal kink and sexually related reasons. On the flip there are young beautiful firls that get caught up in the glamour, being put on a pedestal by thier peers and tranny chasing men. So at all levels you have people claiming to be transsexual that really aren't.

I just had a deep discussion with a friend (with her breaking down) about the her and her best friend living as women for all the wrong reasons. She (and her friend) is in her mid thirties, been living as a woman since she was 17 and is extremely passable and attractive. They both are very highly acclaimed performers and pagent winners, with several national titles and both earn decent livings through thier craft. These are two girls that thousands of transsexuals look up to and wish to be like.

We can't pass judgement on anyone's transitioning, no matter when in life they decide to make the change and no matter how great or bad they look without really knowing that person.

Yes, It takes courage to come clean about who you are.

No, it takes courage to face down the animal inside and confront it.

a) you don't know that this guy didn't tell his wife about his feelings before there were married

So he told his wife "Guess what honey. I know you like men, but I'm gonna be a woman?" And she responded "O RLY"?


b) in what way is transitioning a betrayl of marriage
necessarily? what are these"promises to your family" you are talking about?

Wife married a man. Buyers remorse? Son is entitled to a father, a MALE father. It is his birthright and this guy bought that obligation when he ejaculated inside said wife.


c) "why have law? i am exempt" << in what way is
he breaking the law?

He's breaking the one of the biggest laws-

"Be a father to your child"


d) what responsibilities is he disowning?

Being a father.


e) you are here on this website, a guy, and yet you
maintain that you don't come here for the tgirl content?
so you just come here to flaunt your self righteous
conservative social agenda. and you only read the
articles in Playboy right?

Nope, never said I don't come here for content.

I come here for the beautiful girls! OMGZ!

[BrendaQG]

The person in question is without a doubt a autogynephile and it does not surprise me that this makes news.

Without knowing this person how can you assume that this person is an autogynephile? Just because they decided to transition later in life instead of at a young age?

No because of this persons history of living a perfectly straight male life with wife and family of grown kids. The fact that this person will not look at all like a woman, I don't mean pretty I mean this person will at best look like Homer Simpson in a dress. Last but not least I have known a number of admitedly autogynephilic transsexuals and everything about this one sounds like them, the way they were before transition.



I think we too often assume that the young, pretty, passable girls have made the decision to live as women as being the proper decision and painting the older, less atractive, masculine looking transsexuals as being something other than transsexual.


Yes very shallow people do. It is wrong to think that an Autogynephile is not a TS. They start out in one gender role and end up in the other. That's all it takes to be a transsexual.



True, there are some older males that make the decision for reasons such as personal kink and sexually related reasons. On the flip there are young beautiful firls that get caught up in the glamour, being put on a pedestal by thier peers and tranny chasing men. So at all levels you have people claiming to be transsexual that really aren't.


:-/ No body makes us take that first hormone pill. No body makes us make that decision and usually there is pressure not too. I have little doubt that people get caught up in all that you are saying... I also have no doubt that no body won a TS pageant or had "admiereres" before they themselves decided that they wanted to be a woman.



I just had a deep discussion with a friend (with her breaking down) about the her and her best friend living as women for all the wrong reasons. She (and her friend) is in her mid thirties, been living as a woman since she was 17 and is extremely passable and attractive. They both are very highly acclaimed performers and pagent winners, with several national titles and both earn decent livings through thier craft. These are two girls that thousands of transsexuals look up to and wish to be like.

:-( Wow that's sad if it is as you tell it. I just hope it is a passing bad mood. Everyone has days where they regret making one decision or the other. No matter what. I would have asked your friend....Why did she becomes a transsexual in the first place. What was there before the Pageants, and accaliam? Get back to that and perhaps she will find the real reason she became a TS woman.


We can't pass judgement on anyone's transitioning, no matter when in life they decide to make the change and no matter how great or bad they look without really knowing that person.

Never did pass such judgement. The question was asked why peopel like the subject of this thread transition. I gave a possible answer. I am open to others.

[signupjustforthis]

You can still be a responsible parent to your children even if you transition.

As long as your parents are loving and responsible , than these are the most important things. If you have an unhappy and self loathing father, that’s probably not going to make the child very happy either.

You can still be a responsible parent to your children even if you transition.

But you can't be a father and children are entitled to a mother and a father. It's one law that should actually be on the books. Not sure about enforcement, but it should be.


As long as your parents are loving and responsible , than these are the most important things.

But they're not the only things.


If you have an unhappy and self loathing father, that’s probably not going to make the child very happy either.

And? Get therapy, take medication, whatever. Wait until the kid at least turns 18 before you fuck his head up.

[signupjustforthis]

I think HER duaghter is actually of legal age.

And I think same sex marriages should be legal everywhere.

I think HER duaghter is actually of legal age.

And I think same sex marriages should be legal everywhere.

It's a son. A 13 year old boy.

[signupjustforthis]

Oh being 13 was awful for me. *sniff*

[RangeHova]

No because of this persons history of living a perfectly straight male life with wife and family of grown kids. The fact that this person will not look at all like a woman, I don't mean pretty I mean this person will at best look like Homer Simpson in a dress. Last but not least I have known a number of admitedly autogynephilic transsexuals and everything about this one sounds like them, the way they were before transition.

Other than his age and the fact that he has a family, what in any of these reports tells anything about his life and what is in his head, how he has lived with his feelings, or anything halfway personal.

That is like saying that anyone or most who transistion later in life are doing it for sexual reasons. I find that quite an unfair statement.

Who really knows if his life has been straight? Behind closed doors he could have been doing who knows what and choosing not to disclose that part of his life. Plenty of gay men life straight lives to the public's pryin eye.

And why does the fact that he might look like Homer Simpson in a dress even come into this discussion? He has made a very nice living, he very well may invest majorly in facial feminization sugeries. Even still, he may look worse than Homer Simpson in a dress that has nothing to do with who this person is as a TS, as a person. What do looks have to do with being or not being an autogynephile?


…no body won a TS pageant or had "admiereres" before they themselves decided that they wanted to be a woman.

That is not true. I have seen many a pretty femme boy get told ‘oh, you would make a cute girl’. Especially when one of those same boys walks a ball or wears women’s clothing, wears feminine hairstyles, etc (but still presents as a male, effeminate men). I have seen many a tranny chaser go after androgynous looking boys that were pretty, the prettier the better. The value that some gay males put on more so-called 'straight appearing' men can make some femme males take measures to play up their femininity to snag some of these men.

The ball scene can be a huge pressure on young kids now a days. Some of those girls are literally stars in the community (be it local, region, and even national). Now you have actual international pageants popping up. There can be many in different houses and families to get beat the next house to get the pretty young thing with potential. Some girls want to be that next TS star famous on the club scene and really don't think 'I want to live as a woman'.


…I would have asked your friend....Why did she becomes a transsexual in the first place. What was there before the Pageants, and acclaim? Get back to that and perhaps she will find the real reason she became a TS woman.

I did ask her and she said it was the allure of the prestige. Even before the pageants and acclaim there was a lower level of acclaim. I have seen young kids hold drag, androgynous, and femme boys up on a pedestal. Some kids just want that shine that comes with that. Like some boys will become gym rats at any cost, some become fashionistas (even if it means stealing or credit card fraud), some get into drag and never take it any further than dressing up for shows, balls and pageants. Some get caught up and progress much further, especially when they are especially pretty or chasing a higher level of feminine appearance.


It is wrong to think that an Autogynephile is not a TS. They start out in one gender role and end up in the other. That's all it takes to be a transsexual.

I take the position of most gender mental health professionals and feel that just taking hormones, living a female role, etc. does not make you TS. I think a transsexual is any genetic male that genuinely feels that he is a female is a transsexual. Just taking hormones and getting surgery for sexual reason, to win some trophies, to make money, to get guys is not TS in my eye. But I do see that some folks (even a small number of mental health pros) don’t feel the same.

So I guess we agree to disagree.

I know a few very attractive girls with full grown breast, on hormones, pumped with silicone, and more that still present as male in their daily lives only to be the pretty girl when it comes to the night.


Never did pass such judgement…

I think when you say “The person in question is without a doubt a autogynephile…” that you have passed judgement on that person. And judged them squarely on the fact that they transitioned later in life after having a wife and kids. Granted it is a possibility (please don’t think I am saying that you are wrong) but when you say ‘without a doubt’ it doesn’t read as you saying it is a ‘possibility’. It says that there is no doubt that he is autogynephilic. It says that most people in his position transistion ONLY for sexual reasons, I don’t think it’s but a small fraction of girls that fit that description. By in large, most studies of these kinds of people show that autogynephiles don’t make up large numbers.

Just making an assumption on someone or thier reason for making such a change based on them being married, having children, and/or being straight doesn’t account for so many factors of who they are as a person. So many of these people have extensively talked about the pressure they felt to attempt to lead normal straight lives, the desires to run away from their TS feelings, the pressures of their parents, family, friends, church, etc.

Right or wrong, people mak,e grave and disasterous decisions for a multitude of reasons that we on the outside, don’t understand. People lead lives where they lie to themselves every day, some go to their grave never living out the life they were meant to or felt they should have lived.

Given a slightly different set of circumstances a lot of girls would not have made some of the life choices that they made on thier path in life.

Again Brenda, I’m not here to say that your assessment of this person is wrong. And this is not some personal beef with you. I personally like the way in which you represent TS women. I respect you. I’m just saying that being as far on the outside as we are from this person and with the small amount that we know about this person we just can’t say or know ‘without a doubt’ who this person is or what is inside of their mind or heart.

[signupjustforthis]

It’s dangerous to think that transsexuals who look like females are necessarily better spokesperson for the transsexual community. You don’t win Public Relation by looking like a flawless woman, you win public acceptance by saying that even if you look completely like a man and you have everything to lose, you would still do anything to be a woman. This suggests that there is a biological or innate contradiction between the body and the mind.

So instead of putting down these type of transsexuals, we should maybe be grateful to them. They win the “sympathy votes” from the public.

Of course, being passable has its advantage, but only when you stay in the closet.

I am not trying to say being passable is not important, god , of course it is but I think that’s just superficial acceptance.

But yeah, there are a lot of reasons why people wouldn’t transition until they reach a mid life crisis. Being a transsexual is like being gay 30 years ago, most gays stayed in the closet than and most transsexuals, at least those who are passable, might decide to stay in the closet as well.

[hwbs]

Less than a week after Largo City Manager Steve Stanton announced he was transgendered, the small Florida community's city commission fired him*. This is workplace discrimination, plain and simple. I just signed the 'Stand with Stanton' petition, and I hope you will too: http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/Petition.cfm

When the Commission fired Stanton, they ignored his excellent record as an energetic and effective leader. Stanton has received consistently positive performance reviews from the City Council and the Mayor while managing over 1,200 employees and the city's $130 million budget.

The promise of America is that if you are a good employee, you should be rewarded for it regardless of your race, creed, disability, gender or sexual orientation. Stanton's firing was an un-American display of workplace discrimination and this injustice should be reversed. Sign our 'Stand with Stanton' petition that we'll deliver to the City Commission in Largo, FL

[hwbs]

come on guys stop all the fighting and take 30 seconds to fill out the petition and help somebody else out...

[peggygee]

come on guys stop all the fighting and take 30 seconds to fill out the petition and help somebody else out...

Done.

And I will pass it on to as many people as I can.

And thanks for posting it.

come on guys stop all the fighting and take 30 seconds to fill out the petition and help somebody else out...


Someone needs to start a "Stand With A His Son's Birth Right to Have A Father" petition.

[signupjustforthis]

You guys can also write a simple letter of support for Steve here



commission@largo.com

I wrote mine, yeah. I don't usually bothered with this. but this time, i am pissed.

[hwbs]

bump :D http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/Petition.cfm