Why Society Rejects Transsexuals

[chefmike]

There are many people that I know who don't believe in any form of God that are the most homophobic people I know.

Ah yes...those homophobic atheists are everywhere nowadays...

You wouldn't happen to know what their stance on gay marriage is , would you?

[Somedude21]

Atheists as a whole against gay marriage? Uh, no. Not from what I've seen, anyway.

[Somedude21]

And that's not based on religion, as, well, Atheists don't have a religion. ^_^ But I think that it just depends on where you live. Up here, most people could care less for gay marriage, and for good reason--it doesn't affect them. Same thing with transsexuals. Though, from those that I've met that are against one or the other (or both), the same reason seems to ring true all the time: they find it to be "disgusting". I guess that society just isn't quite ready yet. Within a generation or two, though, who knows?

[Vicki Richter]

If I wasn't a transsexual myself, I would probably reject them too. I feel like the TS community is like this dark, dank hole of dispair. Either you side yourself with the traditional community and get the whole middle aged manly "I don't look like a woman but accept me as one anyway" or you go with the sex community and get this really wierd negative vibe. Maybe I have had bad luck with most of the girls I've met.

It's hard because financially and education-wise, I fit better into the traditional community than the sex worker community. However, I don't fit in in terms of people that I can relate to or want to have fun and hang out with. On the other hand, in the traditional community, you are less likely to find drug and substance abuse issues vs the sex worker community - which makes me fit better into the traditional community.

So I end up hanging out with GG's and GB's. That is best for me anyway. I mean TS are their own worst enemy. Any time you isolate yourself from the majority of the population, and create your own language or mechanism for isolating yourselves, you face contempt. Sorry Springer or Paulvich are the only mainstream media outlets that regularly give people exposure to what a TS is... and that is sad. Most, not all, of the people on those shows are eccentric whacko's who should never be at the forefront of our community. Unfortunately, every TS wants to be a star for some reason and to go "mainstream". Being on television feeds that somehow.

So anyway, that is my opinion. I am not saying I am above anyone and there are plenty of successful TS who have bridged the gap successfully. Allanah has done well. She is more financially successful than most, if not all, of her acquaintences, but she does a good job bridging that gap. I think Gia, another successful TS, does a good job isolating herself from the community for the most part.

Meanwhile, you have the most beautiful of sex industry TS's like Miriam still escorting and getting thrown out of windows (anyone else read this?) and almost all the girls never getting ahead because of bad money management. Girls don't pay attention, but the sex industry is a short term position offering 20 years at best and 10 years at the worst worth of income. You can't rely on some guy coming and saving you after you've hit the wall - only on yourself. Find me a dozen TS who spends or saves like they is on a limited income stream and I'll sell you a bridge in Saudi Arabia.

[Vala_TS]

I hate to agree but I do.

But I'm sure in 50 years, being a TS will be accepted, at least somewhat. I mean, 50 years ago, being gay was like the worst thing in the straight world now it's "I'm gay, get used to it!" and nobody really objects.

Vala,

[muhmuh]

And that's not based on religion, as, well, Atheists don't have a religion. ^_^

yet firmly believing in the absence of any deity is just as much a riligion as believing in the presence of one

[lincspoacher]

That was (for me anyway) a very enlightening post from Vikki.

I'd have probably over simplified it by saying its because they don't understand & there's no incentive for that to change.

The public have now been made more aware of Gay rights & are rightly,careful about how Gays are treated as regards Education,Employment etc .. perhaps the same kind of thing needs to happen before the TG community is fully accepted & perceived as being of no threat to anyone.

Bye for now,

Poacher.

[chefmike]

I for one would like to hear more about the homophobic atheists and their agenda...

Perhaps society has underestimated their growing menace...

[Alison Faraday]

To put it plain and simple; Society rejects transsexuals because it can. We're not being singled out.

We're rejected for the same reasons that society rejects; fat people, ugly people, successful people, black people, disabled people, thick people, intelligent people, outspoken people, people who achieve, people who sponge off the system, people with AHD, people who stutter, people who squint, people who smell, people with bad hairdos, chistians, muslims, Arabs, and, The French.

Society rejects transsexuals because the human race isn't very nice. People will swear otherwise, yet at some point along the line, maybe in what they do, or what groups they discriminate against; They're not. I notice how so many people like to consider themselves as nice. Maybe they're saying that they would like to be nice.

We alone are not singled out. And to assume that gay people are not, is simply not true. Society is just society.

Thus; transsexuals are not a single unitary group being picked upon. It just seems that way at times from our persepctive.

If a transsexual dresses like a queen or a lezzy and bores the shit out of uninterested people telling them the gory details of how a man becomes a woman, then it's hardly surprising. People, or more, society simply does not want to know.

It would be true to sum up; Better judgement is in order if transsexuals want an easy life. And thankfully (for me) almost every single one on here does. This is one of the more sane forum/collection points of transsexuals.

That's not to say that there isn't discrimination out there. As clearly there is. But it has to be viewed in perspective. Does that person dislike you because you're a transsexual? Or do they just not like you?

[Kriss]

what an idiot u are, sure, if atheism is a religion then health is a disease...
.

Nice analogy.

[muhmuh]

what an idiot u are, sure, if atheism is a religion then health is a desease...

atheism is a belief just like any other religion... the opposite would be ignosticism not atheism

[Coroner]

what an idiot u are, sure, if atheism is a religion then health is a desease...

atheism is a belief just like any other religion... the opposite would be ignosticism not atheism

atheism a belief? maybe if u stay inside the philosophical perspective but atheism is very well represented in science and this my friend is not bullshitting hocus-pocus stories. and u probably mean agnosticism, not ignosticism. there are no opposites in this case.

[Alison Faraday]

I agree that we are certainly not alone in being rejected. But, considering that it's typically human nature to fear what we do not understand, we're put in an exceptionally vulnerable position. Because, imo, we are probably more misunderstood than any other group you've mentioned; and not only by society, but by ourselves. Most of us were self-diagnosed, and had to sort out all the early details on our own. And how well we're able to do this can either make or break us. When I was kid, I was labeled as gay long before I even knew who or what I found to be sexually attractive.

Also, there is less unity in the transgender "community" than any other under the GLBT umbrella. And, of all four, ours is the only group whose sexuality isn't necessarily our main issue. We are not simply "extremely gay"; we are gender dysphoric, regardless of who we find attractive. Yet we're inevitably lumped into this group, whether we can actually relate to them or not.

Damn good reply that. :) It's actually got me thinking, but it's too late (2am) to figure it out some more. No criticism or clever comeback made here at all. I have to say that I agree and understand it.

The second paragraph my reaction would be. Yes, it's not about sex. Well, it never has been here. Bit of a weird one to figure out that. I understand exactly what you mean though. The GLB are all about sex for pleasure. The T (or genuine T) is about very existance. The other three are about sexual preference. I have no sexual preference.

I think transition should get a mention here. As that's something absolutely no other group can experience. Transition is like an insight into the phyche of society. There's just no way to explain to anyone exactly what transition is like. It's a unique encounter. A bit like being dropped in the middle of the Atlantic, and feeling around in the dark for a light switch.

The insight of transsexuals though I think holds some answers between the sexes though. Men kind of grow up to be over grown boys (hey, go look in the shops at men's gadgets!!) and true women grow up to be women, as in sexual beings using sex to manipulate.

2.16am.... nn xx

[muhmuh]

and u probably mean agnosticism, not ignosticism. there are no opposites in this case.

no i specifially mean the thought that it doenst make any difference if there is a god or not


yes and doing nothing is a hobby...

keep it up, ur well on ur way to wombat treatment..its one thing to make ludicrous assertions, its quite another to ignore any posts and continue with a stupid thought...i explain before why i believe agnostics dont make sense in a religious sense and why i think atheism is more logical considering many things cant be proven yet logically dont have to be...its one thing for u to intellectually respond and make valid points, its quite another to do what ur doing which is to simply repeat ur stupid comments but rearrange the words and emphasize it differantly...

i dont make a habit out of discussing with people that have nothing to offer but insults thus you got the appropriate reply from me

[MrsKellyPierce]

Cause we look better than they do?

[Felicia Katt]

atheism is a belief just like any other religion... the opposite would be ignosticism not atheism

As soon as you see Atheists building gathering places, wrting hyms, wearing robes or collars, or passing the collection plate, then you can say being an atheist is the same as being religious. As far as being an agnostic, that is not the opposite of being religious either. Agnosticism is rom the Greek "a", meaning "without" and gnosis, "knowledge", translating to unknowable. Its the philosophical view that the truth of theological claims regarding the existence of God, is unknown or inherently unknowable. An Agnostic claims that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge. Put more simply Agnosticism is skepticism.

A person of faith knows there is a god. An atheist knows there isn't one. An agnostic knows they don't know and reserves judgment. A good poster knows when they don't know and reserves commenting.

FK

[muhmuh]

As soon as you see Atheists building gathering places, wrting hyms, wearing robes or collars, or passing the collection plate, then you can say being an atheist is the same as being religious. As far as being an agnostic, that is not the opposite of being religious either. Agnosticism is rom the Greek "a", meaning "without" and gnosis, "knowledge", translating to unknowable. Its the philosophical view that the truth of theological claims regarding the existence of God, is unknown or inherently unknowable. An Agnostic claims that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge. Put more simply Agnosticism is skepticism.

A person of faith knows there is a god. An atheist knows there isn't one. An agnostic knows they don't know and reserves judgment. A good poster knows when they don't know and reserves commenting.

FK

like i said earlier im not talking about agnosticism as such but about ignosticism which is that it doesnt make any difference if there is a god or not

religion is belief... and so is atheism... logically the opposite of belief cant be another belief

[Felicia Katt]

I have never once heard any part of any "atheistic agenda" against homsexuality or transsexuality. Maybe some atheistis are homophobic, but atheism is not. The only arguments I ever hear advanced to support harsh, wholesale discrimination against people for who they chose to love, or how they choose to express their inner selves are religious, and usually Biblically based on a few cherry picked, misconstrued scriptural passages.

FK

[muhmuh]

I have never once heard any part of any "atheistic agenda" against homsexuality or transsexuality. Maybe some atheistis are homophobic, but atheism is not. The only arguments I ever hear advanced to support harsh, wholesale discrimination against people for who they chose to love, or how they choose to express their inner selves are religious, and usually Biblically based on a few cherry picked, misconstrued scriptural passages.

FK

that really wasnt my point and i admit i did pull this thread in a totally different direction
i was merely pointing out that following the belief that there is no god certainly doesnt put j in any position to condecend on religion as a whole
or to put it bluntly i got tired of his aditude (imagine the harsher way to express it for added bluntness)

[Felicia Katt]

From Wikipedia

Ignosticism is the view that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because it has no verifiable (or testable) consequences and should therefore be ignored. ....For most purposes, this view may be considered a form of agnosticism

Potato, Potatoe If you want to be literal, theism is a belief in God and atheism is a belief there is no God. Religion is a structure premised on the belief in God or faith. Atheism is not a structure or construct but is the philosophy itself.

I'm not sure why you are spending the online equivalent of wandering 40 days in this epistemological desert anyhow. The fact is that religion has been and continues to be used to excuse or justify gross discrimination against the GBLT community and certainly many religions are more hostile to us than J is to religion.

FK

[olite71]

From Wikipedia

Ignosticism is the view that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because it has no verifiable (or testable) consequences and should therefore be ignored. ....For most purposes, this view may be considered a form of agnosticism

Potato, Potatoe If you want to be literal, theism is a belief in God and atheism is a belief there is no God. Religion is a structure premised on the belief in God or faith. Atheism is not a structure or construct but is the philosophy itself.

I'm not sure why you are spending the online equivalent of wandering 40 days in this epistemological desert anyhow. The fact is that religion has been and continues to be used to excuse or justify gross discrimination against the GBLT community and certainly many religions are more hostile to us than J is to religion.

FK

There needs to be a distinction between truly "religious" people and people who merely practice "religiosity"

Truly "religious" people have a special thing called faith. Faith is a largely irrational (and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense) and unquenchable love of "GOD." (or the force that can be compare to "GOD"). This love manifests iteself in prayer, good works, and a deeply spiritual point of view of the world dedicated to revealing that GOD in one's own manner of being.

Truly religious people are relatively few and far between. People who exhibit "religiosity" are everywhere and are what people commonly mistake for "religious" people.

Truly religious people are people like the early Saints, like Ghandi, like Mother Theresa, like MLK Jr....

People who merely practice religiosity and go to church on the sabbath are like NFL fans who go to tailgates.

Being truly religious is a hard thing to do--it is an ascetic life, a serious life, but a life that can bring eternal bliss in the mind and being of the religious person.

I am a dedicated agnostic, and I love truly religious people---and I am fortunate enough to know two or three. I treasure our discussions on philosophy and religion and at times I envy their faith.

A philosophical and serious agnostic like myself shares many things in common with a truly religious person, save one very important element---the "leap of faith." And therein is a source of envy.

But faith isn't something you just "try on." The great jazz artist, Julian "Cannoball" Adderly once said "hip isn't a state of mind; it's a fact of life." And so is it too with faith--it's not a state of mind.

Religiosity sells faith as a "state of mind" a style...perhaps even, an opiate as Marx opined.

For truly religous people, however, faith is a fact of life.

[olite71]

From Wikipedia

Ignosticism is the view that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because it has no verifiable (or testable) consequences and should therefore be ignored. ....For most purposes, this view may be considered a form of agnosticism

Potato, Potatoe If you want to be literal, theism is a belief in God and atheism is a belief there is no God. Religion is a structure premised on the belief in God or faith. Atheism is not a structure or construct but is the philosophy itself.

I'm not sure why you are spending the online equivalent of wandering 40 days in this epistemological desert anyhow. The fact is that religion has been and continues to be used to excuse or justify gross discrimination against the GBLT community and certainly many religions are more hostile to us than J is to religion.

FK

There needs to be a distinction between truly "religious" people and people who merely practice "religiosity"

Truly "religious" people have a special thing called faith. Faith is a largely irrational (and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense) and unquenchable love of "GOD." (or the force that can be compare to "GOD"). This love manifests iteself in prayer, good works, and a deeply spiritual point of view of the world dedicated to revealing that GOD in one's own manner of being.

Truly religious people are relatively few and far between. People who exhibit "religiosity" are everywhere and are what people commonly mistake for "religious" people.

Truly religious people are people like the early Saints, like Ghandi, like Mother Theresa, like MLK Jr....

People who merely practice religiosity and go to church on the sabbath are like NFL fans who go to tailgates.

Being truly religious is a hard thing to do--it is an ascetic life, a serious life, but a life that can bring eternal bliss in the mind and being of the religious person.

I am a dedicated agnostic, and I love truly religious people---and I am fortunate enough to know two or three. I treasure our discussions on philosophy and religion and at times I envy their faith.

A philosophical and serious agnostic like myself shares many things in common with a truly religious person, save one very important element---the "leap of faith." And therein is a source of envy.

But faith isn't something you just "try on." The great jazz artist, Julian "Cannoball" Adderly once said "hip isn't a state of mind; it's a fact of life." And so is it too with faith--it's not a state of mind.

Religiosity sells faith as a "state of mind" a style...perhaps even, an opiate as Marx opined.

For truly religous people, however, faith is a fact of life.

haha, one of the funniest comments ever posted...then theres super duper truly religious people;)

well lets see on ur lil list of truly religious people, u mentionedghandi an admitted racist who believed in the caste system and kept minorities and believed in seperating people depending on their color and refered to blacks in africa as savages...then u have mother theresa, who raised hundreds of millions, allegedly for the poor and orphans, but most of it is unaccounted for and in some catholic coffers, mistreated all the poor and sick because she believed they should suffer like jesus did on the cross, yet when she got ill she flew to the usa and had the best doctors take care of her...what else, oh she accepted tons of blood money from corrupt regimes all over the world...i can go on if u like about that evil bitch, but i think u get the hilarious point...who else, im not sure but im pretty certain one of the other on ur list was an admitted adulterer...my these real religious people are so much better than the rest of us...yeah great point...i cant figure out why i hate religion so much, u make such clear valid points...


Truly religious people are the first one to recognize they are sinners. You on the other hand post in a tone that suggests you are a "better person" than Ghandi or Mother Theresa. Good luck with that.

[olite71]

i am a better person that mother theresa, that cunt did everything not cause she loved people or wanted to do good, she did it cause jesus told her and she feared hell and wanted heaven..big fuckin whoop, i do it and i dont think heaven or hell exist...whose better? ME!!!!


besides, so now real religious can include evil wastes of sperm that steal rob and hurt people so long as they recognize their own sins? how many fuckin loopholes to u have built inot ur bullshit system? cause she was an onld dried up cunt who looked cute in a viel and looked humble? do u realize its nutjobs like u that said the same thing about the pharoes years ago and who blindly raved about ceaser, etc. ur a fuckin sheep...u dont care what ill show u about the evils of people u adore, ur a fuckin sheep...thats why ur bible referes to ur god as a sheperd...ur all fuckin sheep....baaaaaa

It appears you don't understand what I was saying because I don't really know what you're replying too. You've constructed a giant strawman filled with absolutely nothing that I said.

If you truly want the world to be a better place, then you will contribute nothing toward that end if all you can do is hate and point fingers.

[Felicia Katt]

Faith can move mountains, Religion can stripmine them.

There are lots of people outside of regligions who have faith and act on it, and there are lots of people inside religions who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Saints, or sinners, none are fully good or bad. People should be judged on the net good or bad of what they do, not what they say or how they pray.

FK

[HungDevil]

I have been an atheist for nearly a decade now and most of the athiests I know are not ACTIVE heterosexists. Heterosexism is not ideological, but a gut feeling that people have and act on. It is religious belief that validates the gut feeling for people (atheism and religion are compatible). However, a heterosexist atheist has no pretend validation or scientifically valid reason for opposing gay rights even though he or she has the gut feeling. It follows that most non-religious atheists are not active heterosexists; meaning they are not hell-bent on fighting gay rights. In fact, a lot atheists are libertarians or those who subscribe to ideologies than support gay rights.


Personally, I have no problem with people having distaste for certain behaviors. It's a fact that we all harbor prejudices. I do have a problem with those who want to legislate their opinions so as to violate individual rights.

[olite71]

Faith can move mountains, Religion can stripmine them.

There are lots of people outside of regligions who have faith and act on it, and there are lots of people inside religions who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Saints, or sinners, none are fully good or bad. People should be judged on the net good or bad of what they do, not what they say or how they pray.

FK

Yeah, precisely what I was saying with my "religiosity" and "religious" distinction.

You're getting too caught up with semantics. I am a person of faith--but a different kind---"faith" in myself.


It is wholly different to have a faith in some "higher power." And faith in a "higher power" is pretty much a "religious" construct.

For clarification I call "religious" people people who necessarily have (among other things) "faith in a higher power." And I believe the people I define as people who practice "religiosity" are the same people you are referring to when you refer to "religious" people--but for the most part, they lack faith.

It little profits any of us, however, to fix on a person defined as "religious" and then point out something bad they did. WE ARE ALL SINNERS, period. A person of faith however, admits that, and moves on, and tries.

Every single one of us must agree that the examples of Jesus Christ are excellent examples of a way of living. And there are people in this world who call themselves christians and who try to emulate that example as best they can--and these are good people and they are religious people. Are they to be condemned b/c they are "religious?" That's not only absurd, it's evil.

And there are just as good and virtuous religious people who follow Siddartha, and Mohammed, etc. and just as good and virtuous people who follow the secular moral imperatives set down by western philosophy but who will not commit to a theistic realm beyond the one we perceive on earth.

But all in all, there is good and there is evil.


Some evil people are religious and some are areligious. Some good people are religious and some are arreligious.

These are all facts, confirmed by the realities of our everyday perceptions.

But to just pick out religion and hate it or any philosophy and just hate it is a terrible waste of energy. In fact all hating is a terrible waste of energy...(unless you are in the business of hating--which is basically the business of terrorists).

[Felicia Katt]

go ahead hun, construe the biblical passage in a favorable light to homosexuals:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."
i love it when people try so hard to avoid saying the bible is an evil fuckin book written by a bunch of racist sexist homophobic slave owners and carefully use words to imply that somehow humans have taken this lovely piece of work and misused it and taken it out of context.....
other than that once word ur response was beautiful though babe;)
There are way over a dozen English language translations. There are signifcant differences among them. Some say abomination, some say detestable. some say shall die, some say shall be put to death some will die. Some say blood, some say guilt, a few say blood guilt. Depending on the translation and interpretaion it can refer to all homosexual behavior, by either men or women, or all sexual behavior between two men, or only anal sex between two men, or only anal sex in a Pagan temple ritual, or only sexual activity between two men in a woman's bed.

Keep in mind also this passage is not part of the 10 Commandments, but merely part of almost 600 additional rules most of which call for similar sanctions and most of which are conveniently overlooked. Keep also in mind that it relates to rituals prohibited to all Hebrews in ancient times, not to everyone and not to the present. Keep also in mind that the New Testament or new Covenant is supposed to supercede and simplify the faithful's relationship with God. So, yes, taking one passage of 600, and giving it the most expansive interpretation and a literal meaning where it was likely meant more figuratively and ignoring that it may not even have relevance in even its historic context, let alone modern times is clearly an example of misconstruction.

Another thing to keep in mind, and take to heart. The Bible is an anthology, not a book. Decisions were made by its editors to include and exclude books that fit or didn't fit their overall agenda. There is a verse in the “Gospel of Thomas” – a work rejected by the editors of the New Testament – that provides the purported words of Jesus himself as follows:
“…when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female… then you will enter the Kingdom"

FK

[BrendaQG]

It's so easy to blame religion. As I have described in at least one case it is more the bending of religion to discriminatory pruposes that is to blame for much trouble.

The real reason as far as I can see is that people learn to hate anyone who is different from them. What ever that difference may be.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Society rejects transexuals because they are afraid to go againts the NORM. Its really more of a FEAR of the unknown if you ask me. Not fully understanding why transexualism exist. TG's in the earlier times (Galli era about 203 BC) were thought of to be lunatics.

Read the entire history on here for more:

http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=106&mforum=harajukutgirl

~Kisses.

HTG

[lincspoacher]

Hi Alison,

I agree with your summary of why Transsexuals are sidelined .. but my contention is that society has gone some way to protect (by means of Legislation) the rights of Gay people,Disabled people etc .. Transgendered people have not caught up as yet.

I'd certainly agree that it is a human condition that makes us want to have someone to "look down" on .. one which allowed the Nazis to persecute the Jews,whilst so many,otherwise "upstanding" citizens looked on without protest.

The world isn't a nice place & I'm certainly not so naive as to believe that "everything in the garden is rosy" or that things are going to change anytime soon ..
Having had a couple of serious relationships with Transgendered women,it just rankles that people who get on with their lives,pay their taxes & harm no one are being mitigated against and nothing is ever done to redress the balance.

Sadly,I don't know what the answer is .. if I did .. I'd probably be a very rich man by now ... :wink:
But its always interesting to hear the views of those who're affected .. "first-hand" so to speak.

Bye for now,

Poacher.

[signupjustforthis]

It's not just about religions. There are plenty of athiests who don't like gays or transsexuals.

[werwt22]

I have never once heard any part of any "atheistic agenda" against homsexuality or transsexuality. Maybe some atheistis are homophobic, but atheism is not. The only arguments I ever hear advanced to support harsh, wholesale discrimination against people for who they chose to love, or how they choose to express their inner selves are religious, and usually Biblically based on a few cherry picked, misconstrued scriptural passages.

FK

go ahead hun, construe the biblical passage in a favorable light to homosexuals:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

i love it when people try so hard to avoid saying the bible is an evil fuckin book written by a bunch of racist sexist homophobic slave owners and carefully use words to imply that somehow humans have taken this lovely piece of work and misused it and taken it out of context.....

other than that once word ur response was beautiful though babe;)

Wow J....just wow......Your gonna have to calm down on this bashing of others religion. It's fine if you believe what you believe, but your being very disrespectful in what you say. The people you talk about are people that fucked up....people do fuck up. Just b/c your religious doesn't mean your impervious to messing up anymore, but your trying to demean religion as a whole b/c of people who messed up. You talk about religion doing it but it seems your forcing your atheist views on everyone else to me.

[werwt22]

And those were some very good posts by Arianna and Alison btw.

[Vicki Richter]

J doesn't dislike religion, he hates religion. It is really unhealthy to hate like that. I love God and I am not afraid to say it publicly... even though it has become uncool to be Christian in our present society.

There is nothing wrong with having faith as long as you don't inflict your viewpoints upon others in harmful ways.

BTW - I know there are a lot of gays who don't like TS also. They may like their drag queens, but true TS aren't typically welcome in that community. A perfect example was Allanah not being allowed into the fag club.

I think as soon as the world realizes that everyone hates everyone we'll be on a better path to fixing the hate and contempt issues.

[Felicia Katt]

Vikki - I am pleasantly surprised by your insight. Its nice to see someone out there who loves god and is thankful for his blessings.

I agree that religion cannot be imposed on people. It is something your going to believe in or not.
The whole point of most religions is to impose their viewpoint, on everyone. Heaven is the carrot, Hell is the stick. The first four of the 10 Commandments are only about enforcing belief

You shall have no other Gods but me.
You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.

You either have faith, or you don't. A lot of religious people don't really have true faith, except in their religion's set gameplan to get them to heaven. They go to church, religiously, but robotically. They recite their prayers without hearing or meaning the words. Karl Marx said Religion was the opiate of the masses, but not faith or spirituality, whcih can be more like adrenaline. People may conflate faith with religion, but for good or bad, you can believe without being religious just the way you can be religious without believing.



FK

[muhmuh]

From Wikipedia

Ignosticism is the view that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because it has no verifiable (or testable) consequences and should therefore be ignored. ....For most purposes, this view may be considered a form of agnosticism

it is of course a form of agnosticism but the bit where it goes beyond vanilla agnosticism is what matteres to me and the reason why i insisted on the correct semantics


I'm not sure why you are spending the online equivalent of wandering 40 days in this epistemological desert anyhow.

i just needed to rant against j rants... and im done now


The fact is that religion has been and continues to be used to excuse or justify gross discrimination against the GBLT community and certainly many religions are more hostile to us than J is to religion.

youre treating religion as a crutch to push someones own views and religion as such the same here
its pretty much impossible to justify hate against any group if you go by the core of christianity and leave out all the bits that were added later on (most of which like you pointed out earlier are conveniently ignored by most self proclaimed christians)
what qualifies as christianity in the us (and what harbours most of those trying to push their politcal views through religion) would probably be considered a sect and not given the staus of a religion round here

and on a side note i dont remember anybody who actually did play the religion card in the gay marriage discussion (except maybe ratzinger and his bunch)

[Felicia Katt]

youre treating religion as a crutch to push someones own views and religion as such the same here
its pretty much impossible to justify hate against any group if you go by the core of christianity and leave out all the bits that were added later on (most of which like you pointed out earlier are conveniently ignored by most self proclaimed christians)
what qualifies as christianity in the us (and what harbours most of those trying to push their politcal views through religion) would probably be considered a sect and not given the staus of a religion round here

and on a side note i dont remember anybody who actually did play the religion card in the gay marriage discussion (except maybe ratzinger and his bunch)

I don't know where you are but I know where I am, and I am not using religion or anything else as a crutch. I stand on my own two feet in these discussions. I agree with you that if you look at the forest of the Bible and not just a few rotten trees, it really doesn't support hatred, but most of the Christians in the US, particularly those most active in politics, focus only on those hateful stripped down trees, and would just as soon tie gay and transgender people to them and start a forest fire.

As far as gay marriage, the bible is the only card in the deck. There is no rational, reasonable basis to deny gays and transgender the same rights to legal recognition and organization and ordering of their relationships that every straight couple automatically enjoys. Gay Marriage opponents may couch it in terms of preservation of the long held societal traditions, but thats just a code word for their professed Biblical view. All of the major organizations that work the hardest to keep the GLBT community marginalized and open to lawful harassment and discrimination are religious ones.

FK

[chefmike]

youre treating religion as a crutch to push someones own views and religion as such the same here
its pretty much impossible to justify hate against any group if you go by the core of christianity and leave out all the bits that were added later on (most of which like you pointed out earlier are conveniently ignored by most self proclaimed christians)
what qualifies as christianity in the us (and what harbours most of those trying to push their politcal views through religion) would probably be considered a sect and not given the staus of a religion round here

and on a side note i dont remember anybody who actually did play the religion card in the gay marriage discussion (except maybe ratzinger and his bunch)

Nobody does it better....

I don't know where you are but I know where I am, and I am not using religion or anything else as a crutch. I stand on my own two feet in these discussions. I agree with you that if you look at the forest of the Bible and not just a few rotten trees, it really doesn't support hatred, but most of the Christians in the US, particularly those most active in politics, focus only on those hateful stripped down trees, and would just as soon tie gay and transgender people to them and start a forest fire.

As far as gay marriage, the bible is the only card in the deck. There is no rational, reasonable basis to deny gays and transgender the same rights to legal recognition and organization and ordering of their relationships that every straight couple automatically enjoys. Gay Marriage opponents may couch it in terms of preservation of the long held societal traditions, but thats just a code word for their professed Biblical view. All of the major organizations that work the hardest to keep the GLBT community marginalized and open to lawful harassment and discrimination are religious ones.

FK

[muhmuh]

I don't know where you are but I know where I am, and I am not using religion or anything else as a crutch. I stand on my own two feet in these discussions.

you might have miunderstood my first line
i wasnt implying that you use it as a crutch yourself but that you didnt distinguish enough between religion and its missuse


but most of the Christians in the US, particularly those most active in politics, focus only on those hateful stripped down trees, and would just as soon tie gay and transgender people to them and start a forest fire.

like i said... self proclaimed christians which stand as far away from christianity as atheist do

[eggbert]

I've read through this entire thread with much interest. I think J's first comment, blunt as it was, hit the nail on the head. And his later quote by Steven Weinberg was right on. "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion"

[Felicia Katt]

like i said... self proclaimed christians which stand as far away from christianity as atheist do
Sorry sweetie, but the "self proclaimed christians" you seem to regard as a minor cult or something are most of the mainstream denominations whose membership constitutes the substantial majority of christians. Catholics are one very large group with a stated intolerance for homosexuals, as you admit, but so are southern Baptists, Episcopalians. Methodists and most major branches.

Maybe their members as individuals disagree with these views, but these Christians don't proclaim against them anywhere near loudly enough to change things.

FK

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[eggbert]

Wendy, I may be butting in where I'm not wanted, but just maybe the way to get "spiritually healed" is to stay out of Church. Start to question where some of those religious beliefs of yours came from. You may find they're not your beliefs at all, just those that you were taught to believe.

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[eggbert]

But acceptance of god isn't the issue here. The issue is that you've bought into feeling bad about yourself because that's how you've been taught. If you believe in god, why can't you believe that he loves you as you are?

[Felicia Katt]

Well, your response is at least intelligent, unlike the one prevoius...

You are correct about the "taught to believe" aspect of religious beliefs. God sure hasn't spoken to me directly, except through the fact that we exist and how everything in nature and the physical universe seems to be perfectly ordered.

And even then, some say there is no supreme God, but I just can't accept that...

If you talk to God you are praying; if God talks to you you have schizophrenia.
(Thomas Szasz)

meow

FK

[eggbert]

But acceptance of god isn't the issue here. The issue is that you've bought into feeling bad about yourself because that's how you've been taught. If you believe in god, why can't you believe that he loves you as you are?

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[eggbert]

Wendy- try sending Vicki a PM. It seems to me that she may be able to help in your struggle with some inner demons.
Stephen, I think you need to dry out for a month at J's boot camp for Zombies.

[peggygee]

I believe in God.

The God of my understanding.

I tend to adopt a 'cafeteria' approach to religion as
I have studied and belonged to a number. I tend to
take the best from each and leave the dogma and
rhetoric that do not meet my needs behind.

I am also not a fan of those that proselytize or try to
shove 'their' religions down 'your' throats. Nor do I
agree with those that feel that their deity or God is
bigger or better than your God, or that they are the
only chosen ones.

Finally, I can understand people that have no belief in
a deity, ie are atheist. Or those that are not committed
to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence
of God or a god, ie agnostic.

And though I will readily admit to having firm and strong
beliefs in the God of my understanding, I do tend to have
secular humanist leanings as well:

Tenets

Secular humanism describes a world view with the following
elements and principles:

Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies
and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must
be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply
accepted on faith.

Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the
use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods
of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions
to human problems and answers to important human questions.

Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment,
growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in
general.

Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth,
with the understanding that new knowledge and experience
constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making
it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves,
our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and
the outlooks of those who differ from us.

Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles
of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human
well-being and individual responsibility.

Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open
exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made
in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

[CORVETTEDUDE]

If I wasn't a transsexual myself, I would probably reject them too. I feel like the TS community is like this dark, dank hole of dispair. Either you side yourself with the traditional community and get the whole middle aged manly "I don't look like a woman but accept me as one anyway" or you go with the sex community and get this really wierd negative vibe. Maybe I have had bad luck with most of the girls I've met.

It's hard because financially and education-wise, I fit better into the traditional community than the sex worker community. However, I don't fit in in terms of people that I can relate to or want to have fun and hang out with. On the other hand, in the traditional community, you are less likely to find drug and substance abuse issues vs the sex worker community - which makes me fit better into the traditional community.

So I end up hanging out with GG's and GB's. That is best for me anyway. I mean TS are their own worst enemy. Any time you isolate yourself from the majority of the population, and create your own language or mechanism for isolating yourselves, you face contempt. Sorry Springer or Paulvich are the only mainstream media outlets that regularly give people exposure to what a TS is... and that is sad. Most, not all, of the people on those shows are eccentric whacko's who should never be at the forefront of our community. Unfortunately, every TS wants to be a star for some reason and to go "mainstream". Being on television feeds that somehow.

So anyway, that is my opinion. I am not saying I am above anyone and there are plenty of successful TS who have bridged the gap successfully. Allanah has done well. She is more financially successful than most, if not all, of her acquaintences, but she does a good job bridging that gap. I think Gia, another successful TS, does a good job isolating herself from the community for the most part.

Meanwhile, you have the most beautiful of sex industry TS's like Miriam still escorting and getting thrown out of windows (anyone else read this?) and almost all the girls never getting ahead because of bad money management. Girls don't pay attention, but the sex industry is a short term position offering 20 years at best and 10 years at the worst worth of income. You can't rely on some guy coming and saving you after you've hit the wall - only on yourself. Find me a dozen TS who spends or saves like they is on a limited income stream and I'll sell you a bridge in Saudi Arabia.

Vicki, there are, actually, quite a few bridges in Saudi Arabia. That, not withstanding, my observations of the community are very similar to yours. I wish it were different, as I am a guy genuinely interested in an LTR with a 'special' lady.

[wendy48088]

* Deleted *

[peggygee]

PeggyGee:

Thank you for the Intelligent and reasoned response. Working in the engineering field, a lot of the reason and scientific inquiry vs just believe on faith approach appeals to me.



Though I have faith and belief, I am very
much a woman of science and an empiricist.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/labratresize.jpg

It can be difficult balancing the two
as they are often in conflict.

For the record though, I do not personally
feel there is a conflict with my being a
transwoman and my faith.

There may be those in organized religion
who would beg to differ.

But c'est la vie. :shrug

[muhmuh]

Sorry sweetie, but the "self proclaimed christians" you seem to regard as a minor cult or something are most of the mainstream denominations whose membership constitutes the substantial majority of christians. Catholics are one very large group with a stated intolerance for homosexuals, as you admit, but so are southern Baptists, Episcopalians. Methodists and most major branches.

Maybe their members as individuals disagree with these views, but these Christians don't proclaim against them anywhere near loudly enough to change things.

FK

dont worry im well aware that they are a large group but the important thing is they dont have any political weight to throw around (not in europe anyway) and their intollerant views dont seem to influence the youth (at large) either so they appear to be on their way to extinction within this century

[signupjustforthis]

I believe that God can exist but I also believes that we might never be able to find out what God is. Lastly, I believe that even if God exists, it has nothing to do with what we do on earth. We are given free will and we exercise it. There is no other way, everyone has to make choices about God and we are the only one responsible for our own lives , there’s no God that will come down and help us.

Many Catholics have relaxed views about homosexuals. Religion gives people comfort, its comforting to know that there is something out there greater than us, caring for us and guiding us and loving us. So it will exist and it serves a useful purpose to those who believe in it. Religion is also used to keep people in line so that people can know their roles and function in a “non sinful” way with other people in a society.

Fear and Love seem to be two different sides of the same coin.

God loves you but if you don’t obey God, you are damned to hell.

It’s a psychological need for humans to punish themselves with suffering and being moral is one of the way we live in order to feel comfortable on earth and what will happen to us after death because we don’t know what it is going to happen.

So you can blame religions all you want, its not going away.

As long as you live your life not thinking only about your own happiness and your own pleasure, than people should respect that but there will be a lot of others who don’t. They need to follow their religious belief very closely for the sake of their own salvation. You cant convince these people to risk their salvation to accept you.

The most important thing is to keep the state separate from the church. I don’t care what your private beliefs are, but no one should be discriminated against in the public sphere, not gays, not transsexuals.


It's best to make friends with peaceful religious people who disagree with you than go to war with them.

[Caleigh]

do we ever need more than the golden rule?

[Felicia Katt]

do we ever need more than the golden rule?

As I understand it the Golden rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

As way too many others seem to believe, the golden rule is whoever has the gold, rules.

FK

[olite71]

Society rejects transexuals because they are afraid to go againts the NORM. Its really more of a FEAR of the unknown if you ask me. Not fully understanding why transexualism exist. TG's in the earlier times (Galli era about 203 BC) were thought of to be lunatics.

Read the entire history on here for more:

http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=106&mforum=harajukutgirl

~Kisses.

HTG



I would venture a guess that at least 90% or even more of society doesn't even think about transsexuals. Consequently, to generalize that society "rejects" transsexuals is probably innacurate. The generalization should be that society is apathetic to transsexuals.


Now you could opine that if a the average person were confronted with the issue of transsexualism they might reject it. But the average person would probably reject an octopus salad if it were served to them for lunch.

But we wouldn't take from that example the conclusion that "society rejects octopus salads." Because society doesn't see, think of, or even talk about octopus salads.

There is a difference between rejecting something in a case by case intimate setting and going on a crusade to reject things that you have only heard about.

One is based on personal knowledge--the other is based on notional knowledge. Rejection of things only notionally understood is nothing less than prejudice. But a "notional understanding" presupposes that one is thinking about the thing (i.e. has a notion of it). I would venture to say again that 90% of society has no notional ideas about transsexuals b/c that 90% is just not thinking about them one way or the other.

So that's 90% that really can't "reject" anything--becuase you don't "reject" what you don't think about it.

As for the other 10%--i don't know whether they reject or not. Seems to me that for the most part, those that think about transsexuals think abou them b/c they're curious about them and interested in them. But that 10% either way shouldn't be generalized as "society."

BTW--a nice pickled octopus salad served up with sliced onions, minced fresh parsley and a nice bottle of ribeiro is, to quote Martha Stewart, "a really good thing."

[Kriss]

You and your percentages