"Transgender? You're fired!" Article inside

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

"Transgender? You're fired!"

Or worse—you may be murdered. Transgender people may face discrimination on the job, in housing, or even in trying to pee. Some turn to legal proceedings to establish their rights. Some never get the chance to fight back. Part 9 in The Advocate’s ongoing Transgender 101 series

By Joanne Herman

An Advocate.com exclusive posted July 28, 2006



Many Americans do not realize that in much of the country you can be fired just for being transgender. According to the National Center for Transgender Equality, only 31% of Americans live in areas that explicitly ban discrimination based on gender identity and expression. For the other 69%, legal proceedings may be the only way you can establish your rights. This means that revealing your transgender status could have the same result as that experienced by Sarah Blanchette and Diane Shroer.

Sarah Blanchette was a computer programmer for Saint Anselm College in Manchester, N.H. In March 2004 she informed her superiors that she would return from a two-week vacation presenting herself as female. St. Anselm College then fired her, stating in a letter, "As you know, you recently disclosed to senior college administration your transsexual status. Upon consideration, you are immediately relieved of your duties...." The Boston-based LGBT advocacy and legal group Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders (not to be confused with the LGBT national media watchdog GLAAD) filed a lawsuit against Saint Anselm on May 26, 2005, reaching a settlement early this year.

Diane Schroer was an Airborne Ranger–qualified Special Forces officer who completed more than 450 parachute jumps, received numerous decorations--including the Defense Superior Service Medal, and was handpicked to head up a classified national security operation. Shortly after retiring as a colonel after 25 years of distinguished service in the army, she accepted a job as a terrorism research analyst at the Library of Congress. She thought she'd found the perfect fit. But when Schroer told her future supervisor that she was in the process of a gender transition to female, the job offer was rescinded. The American Civil Li berties Union is now representing her in a lawsuit against the Library of Congress.

If you are transgender and believe that your industry, employer, or trade will not accept a transgender person, you might decide to leave your current position before disclosing your transgender status. But after disclosure you will likely run into another problem: It can be very difficult to find new employment as an “out” transgender person, especially if your presentation does not rigidly conform to the gender binary. You may end up settling for employment considerably below your capabilities for the sake of having a job. Or you may not find a job at all.

Of course, however rampant and chronic employment discrimination may be for the community, it pales in comparison to the gravest issue facing transgender people: hate crimes. One example was the murder of Gwen Araujo in California in 2002. Gwen was a sexually active teenager who had not disclosed her transgender status to some of her male sex partners. She was murdered by her companions after their forced inspection revealed her to be biologically male. In the ensuing trial the defendants tried to use the transgender version of the “gay panic” defense--that Gwen had deceived them and therefore deserved to be murdered. In the end, two of the defendants were convicted of second-degree murder, but the jury concluded that no hate crime was committed.

An estimated average of one transgender person every two weeks is murdered just for being transgender. Gwen Smith has recorded the known killings on her Remembering Our Dead Web p age at Gender.org. Every November 20 we in the transgender community honor the memory of our slain brothers and sisters in the solemn Transgender Day of Remembrance. Last year there were 305 TDOR events around the world, spanning 42 U.S. states and 11 countries on five continents.

As a trans person you may also face discrimination in your mundane everyday life, in areas such as housing, credit, and public accommodation. If your presentation does not rigidly conform to the gender binary, you may be harassed if you attempt to use either the men’s or the ladies’ bathroom. Self-deputized gender police (and sometimes, the actual law enforcement kind) stand ready to protect these sacred spaces. The Transgender Law Center’s recently released guide "Peeing in Peace" explains how this policing harms gender-nonconforming people and offers some suggestions to help.

Regardless of how you present, you may face discrimination just because administrators or employees know you are transgender. GLAD successfully mounted a challenge in which a transgender middle school student was disciplined for wearing gender-appropriate clothing, and another in which a loan applicant was told to go home and come back dressed in clothing that matched the gender on her identification.

Discrimination pops up in all kinds of places, including your tax return. Since you must have the authorization of mental health professionals to have sex-reassignment surgery, and because you must pay the full cost of the surgery because it is generally not covered by insurance, Rhiannon O'Donnabhain deducted the costs of her sex-reassignment surgery on her 2001 return, believing they surely qualified as “medically necessary.” Yet, upon audit, the IRS denied her deduction, deeming it “cosmetic.” GLAD has commenced litigation on her behalf in U.S. tax court.

I have mentioned some of GLAD’s transgender legal cases because they are most familiar to me from my position as the first transgender member of its board of directors. But in all fairness, organizations such as Lambda Legal, the National Center for Lesbian Rights, and the Transgender Law Center have also achieved significant legal gains on behalf of trans people. It’s clearly going to take the work of all of these organizations and others, plus some significant legislation, before all of us gender-nonconforming people will be able to live our lives in peace.

SOURCE: http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid34806.asp
__________________________________________________ _____________________


I thought this article was pretty interesting worth sharing. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Smog Boy]

Thanks for sharing that one, H.

[Caleigh]

It's a horrible situation that I have lived through personally, losing a job of 14 years after telling my supervisor that I would be returning to work after seasonal shut-down as a woman. I'm very lucky in that I did find other work in my field, though a level down on the ladder.

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/trumpx3.jpg

I don't think so! :smh


You actually are afforded a plethora of protections as
a TG in the workplace.

Some of theses protections come from the government,
whether Federal, state, or local:

Federal Statutory Law

Federal law prohibits discrimination based on sex in
public employment.6 This law prohibits discrimination
based on sex stereotypes.7 Thus, if an LGBT person
is discriminated against for failure to conform to the
stereotypes about his or her gender, the employee should
have a viable claim under federal law.

First Amendment
Public employees also have invoked the First Amendment
to protect a right to “come out” publicly

Equal Protection
The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment
to the U.S. Constitution prohibits the government from
purposefully discriminating against someone without
adequate justification on the ground that he or she
belongs to an identifiable class of people.

Additionally a number of states provide protection:

State Law Protections

The following states have specifically listed sexual
orientation in their law prohibiting discrimination against
public employees: Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado,
Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Hawaii,
Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts,
Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, New Jersey,
New Mexico, New York, Nevada, Oregon, Pennsylvania,
Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin.


Transgender Employees
The following states prohibit gender identity discrimination
against public employees: California, Illinois, Kentucky,
Maine, Minnesota, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and
Rhode Island (and by court or administrative rulings
in Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Massachusetts, New
Jersey, New York and Vermont). Also, transgender
employees who suffer discrimination often may invoke
laws against sex discrimination in employment.


Now, if you live in one of the states or cities that doesn't
provide you protection, many times if you are in a union,
you may receive protection through them.

Union Protections

Union contracts that include sexual orientation and gender
identity in their non-discrimination clause provide expanded
protections for LGBT employees. If a contract lacks these
protections, LGBT members and allies should try to get involved
in the negotiations process and advocate for these additions
in the next contract.

Some of the afore-mentioned applies to employees of the
government, but in many cases the courts have extended
these protection to private employees.

The above is excerpted from:

http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/fact.html?record=1871


http://www.glad.org/


http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/publications.html?record=1493

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Transgender_Issues&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=26&ContentID=31022

http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/issues/record?record=4

[wombat33]

It's a horrible situation that I have lived through personally, losing a job of 14 years after telling my supervisor that I would be returning to work after seasonal shut-down as a woman. I'm very lucky in that I did find other work in my field, though a level down on the ladder.

CAN'T YOU WIN THE BIGGEST LAWSUIT EVER FOR THAT???

[Alison Faraday]

Well..

Take hormones until people start calling you Miss and keep on looking at you funny, and you're cutting extra holes in your belt and your clothes hang off you. Formally transition. Get a few months wages out of your current employment before they fire you for leaving at 4:59 on a daily basis for the last 3-years (or something equally daft). Wait for friends to stop talking to you and the word CUNT to be written on the side of your car and it's wingmirrors repeatedly kicked off. Go homeless for 6-months and live off the state in some YMCA shithole where everyone grunts at each other inbetween their heroin fix. Enjoy repeated SMS text messages telling you what a freak you are (presumably from people you knew since no one else has your number). At least other people think you're really popular to be getting so many texts.

Then.. Move, disappear, start afresh. Lie your arse off on your CV. Materialise several spurious non existant Internet companies (with fancy websites and contact details). Write your own job references.

Stealth.

On the whole I haven't had it too bad. In the early years it was hell on this earth, but in the later years I never get read and have never had a problem. A young Chinese kid of about 4 or 5 in a takeaway restuarant once asked me if I was a man or a woman so I pushed him off the counter and that shut him up. Any other looks I get (usually from big fat heffers scoffing hamburgers in town centres) I just make chomp-chomp-I-can't-stop-eating-gestures at, by which point they either threaten to kill me inbetween mouthfuls, or waddle in my direction like something out of the hit film, I'm-so-fat-that-I-can't-walk (and I have slow metabolism).

Being transsexual isn't without dangers agreed, but if I'm going to get abused I'd much rather it be because I've just told some bloke that he could have done much better, while pointing at his fat wife and ugly children.

As for laws protecting transsexuals, they're almost not worth the paper they're printed on. So few solicitors will touch transsexual cases, and without a solicitor in the firstplace you're kind of screwed before you even begin.

Best advice is to just disappear and fit into society rather than change it. Sad but true. And ironic too. Equal rights for all, as long as you don't interfere with anyone else's rights. Their rights to not have their delicate minds clouded with such issues as, "Am I a nice person," or, "Should I have to worry about other people's feelings."

Figure that lot out and you'll be onto a winner.

[wombat33]

Well..

Take hormones until people start calling you Miss and keep on looking at you funny, and you're cutting extra holes in your belt and your clothes hang off you. Formally transition. Get a few months wages out of your current employment before they fire you for leaving at 4:59 on a daily basis for the last 3-years (or something equally daft). Wait for friends to stop talking to you and the word CUNT to be written on the side of your car and it's wingmirrors repeatedly kicked off. Go homeless for 6-months and live off the state in some YMCA shithole where everyone grunts at each other inbetween their heroin fix. Enjoy repeated SMS text messages telling you what a freak you are (presumably from people you knew since no one else has your number). At least other people think you're really popular to be getting so many texts.

Then.. Move, disappear, start afresh. Lie your arse off on your CV. Materialise several spurious non existant Internet companies (with fancy websites and contact details). Write your own job references.

Stealth.

On the whole I haven't had it too bad. In the early years it was hell on this earth, but in the later years I never get read and have never had a problem. A young Chinese kid of about 4 or 5 in a takeaway restuarant once asked me if I was a man or a woman so I pushed him off the counter and that shut him up. Any other looks I get (usually from big fat heffers scoffing hamburgers in town centres) I just make chomp-chomp-I-can't-stop-eating-gestures at, by which point they either threaten to kill me inbetween mouthfuls, or waddle in my direction like something out of the hit film, I'm-so-fat-that-I-can't-walk (and I have slow metabolism).

Being transsexual isn't without dangers agreed, but if I'm going to get abused I'd much rather it be because I've just told some bloke that he could have done much better, while pointing at his fat wife and ugly children.

As for laws protecting transsexuals, they're almost not worth the paper they're printed on. So few solicitors will touch transsexual cases, and without a solicitor in the firstplace you're kind of screwed before you even begin.

Best advice is to just disappear and fit into society rather than change it. Sad but true. And ironic too. Equal rights for all, as long as you don't interfere with anyone else's rights. Their rights to not have their delicate minds clouded with such issues as, "Am I a nice person," or, "Should I have to worry about other people's feelings."


Interesting thoughts, and some must be very true. But I say.............

BE THE ONE WHO CHANGES IT ALL...............GET A GOOD LAWYER............WIN...............THEN SIGN THE RIGHTS TO YOUR STORY TO A MOVIE COMPANY!!!!!

YOU DESERVE IT
Figure that lot out and you'll be onto a winner.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

It's a horrible situation that I have lived through personally, losing a job of 14 years after telling my supervisor that I would be returning to work after seasonal shut-down as a woman. I'm very lucky in that I did find other work in my field, though a level down on the ladder.


I agree. I went through similar experience back when I was in my early 20's. Its sorta a "catch 22"..damn if you told them firsthand (Get it over and done with) and damn if you dont. Its soo SAD really that most companies couldnt look past someones sexuality (when found out)! :evil:

~Kisses.

HTG

[Alison Faraday]

TO A MOVIE COMPANY!!!!!

Veerrry funny that you should say that... I'm doing odd little bits for the *edited out*. It's bloody cold spending all day standing about to say like 1 sentence, but yayyyy, "That's me, me on television, look look there there." "....Pound of apples please."

Shuts up and goes off to look at the top transsexuals on here for just enough jealously to go to the gym tomorrow.

[Caleigh]

CAN'T YOU WIN THE BIGGEST LAWSUIT EVER FOR THAT???

Well, I was on an annual contract and they created a whole new hiring procedure for the new year (after they knew about my impending transition) and decided to restructure the whole dept. and my contract wasn't renewed. I could have created a stink but it would have meant sticking around in Toronto and I wanted to move to Montreal to be with my gf. I just moved on. I have skills, they don't leave you. Now I have a great job managing a rest/bar in Brooklyn.

[Felicia Katt]

sorry Peggy, but for most people State law is their best and only remedy. Federal law currently provides only limited protection to transgender people. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits sex discrimination in the workplace and most federal courts have held that Congress did not intend this to include gender identity or sexual orientation. There have been some recent cases but none have really changed the status quo. In addition, no federal coverage is provided by the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA). which specifically exempted the transgender community from coverage.

The First Amendment protects public expression from governmental regulation and doesn't really apply to an private employer which can and will regularly limit or proscribe forms of expression for "business reasons".

Equal Protection applies to identifiable groups with "immutable" characteristcs, so generally is limited to race and sex and age. Transgender by virtue of the fact its about change is not really a classic "suspect class" for an equal protection argument yet.

All of this high minded legal talk takes place in an unrealistic vaccum. As Alison alludes to (great post by the way) and as Caleigh's story illustrates, very few if any employers will risk a lawsuit, even one they will win, and fire someone expressly for being TG. No, they will find some pretext to make it a legitimate business decision. You will get fired for being late or poor reviews or bad client rapport or something like that, or you will be let go in the next downsizing, or restructuring or your position will be redefined, or outsourced or what have you.

Sad, but true.

FK

[BrendaQG]

I am trained to work in a small indistry. Everyone knows practically everyone else. So total stealth will not happen. The best I can hope for is passing just so well that my being TS, if it is known, does not stay in mind.

No matter how well one cloaks in to stealth eventually the truth will come out. I would not say that one should go around with a sign saying "I'm a transsexual please kick my ass." At that time having it be known to a few select people that you are a TS could save your job.

Just my observations.

[Trogdor]

It's pretty obvious why this goes on, even in the 21st century.

People NEED something to discriminate against, it's in their blood.

It's pretty much the rednecks and conservatives up till the 60's when segregation was not only accepted, but LEGAL. Where blacks and whites had to have different resturants, different water fountains and intermixed couples could not get burried in the same cemetary. The whole seperate but equal bullshit.

But since the civil rights movements of the 50's and 60's, the rednecks and conservatives are going, ~In his best Cleadus the slack jawed yokal voice~ "Well, we can't be goin' after them coloreds no more, we best be going after someone's else now......you knowm them queers and them trannies we can still go after!" since they need to go after someone now.

It's pretty much a legal version of Salem witch hunts these days. :roll:

[peggygee]

sorry Peggy, but for most people State law is their best and only remedy. Federal law currently provides only limited protection to transgender people. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits sex discrimination in the workplace and most federal courts have held that Congress did not intend this to include gender identity or sexual orientation. There have been some recent cases but none have really changed the status quo. In addition, no federal coverage is provided by the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA). which specifically exempted the transgender community from coverage.

The First Amendment protects public expression from governmental regulation and doesn't really apply to an private employer which can and will regularly limit or proscribe forms of expression for "business reasons".

Equal Protection applies to identifiable groups with "immutable" characteristcs, so generally is limited to race and sex and age. Transgender by virtue of the fact its about change is not really a classic "suspect class" for an equal protection argument yet.

All of this high minded legal talk takes place in an unrealistic vaccum. As Alison alludes to (great post by the way) and as Caleigh's story illustrates, very few if any employers will risk a lawsuit, even one they will win, and fire someone expressly for being TG. No, they will find some pretext to make it a legitimate business decision. You will get fired for being late or poor reviews or bad client rapport or something like that, or you will be let go in the next downsizing, or restructuring or your position will be redefined, or outsourced or what have you.

Sad, but true.

FK


Felicia, I tend to agree with your interpretation of the laws in
question. The Federal protections as you have stated do not
always protect transpersons in the workplace.

The laws that do have more 'teeth' are the ones put in place
by various state and local governements.

Here are links to those:

States:

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Search_the_Database&Template=/CustomSource/WorkNet/srch_list.cfm

Cities and counties:

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Search_the_Database&Template=/CustomSource/WorkNet/srch_list.cfm

Also included is a link to roughly 500 multi-national and Fortune 500
companies that are trans-friendly. The companies cover a broad
spectrum of industries and there are many that are household names.

http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Search_the_Database&Template=/CustomSource/WorkNet/srch_list.cfm

Additionally as was pointed out, unions will also provide protections
against un-ethical firings or discrimation as part their contract with the
employer.

For those in the European community you may want to reference:

Judgment of the Court of 30 April 1996. - P v S and Cornwall County Council. - Reference for a preliminary ruling: Industrial Tribunal, Truro - United Kingdom. - Equal treatment for men and women - Dismissal of a transsexual. - Case C-13/94.

European Court reports 1996 Page I-02143

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:61994J0013:EN:HTML

Will try to get something with a little less legalese. :?

[peggygee]

Well..

Take hormones until people start calling you Miss and keep on looking at you funny, and you're cutting extra holes in your belt and your clothes hang off you. Formally transition. Get a few months wages out of your current employment before they fire you for leaving at 4:59 on a daily basis for the last 3-years (or something equally daft). Wait for friends to stop talking to you and the word CUNT to be written on the side of your car and it's wingmirrors repeatedly kicked off. Go homeless for 6-months and live off the state in some YMCA shithole where everyone grunts at each other inbetween their heroin fix. Enjoy repeated SMS text messages telling you what a freak you are (presumably from people you knew since no one else has your number). At least other people think you're really popular to be getting so many texts.

Then.. Move, disappear, start afresh. Lie your arse off on your CV. Materialise several spurious non existant Internet companies (with fancy websites and contact details). Write your own job references.

Stealth.

On the whole I haven't had it too bad. In the early years it was hell on this earth, but in the later years I never get read and have never had a problem. A young Chinese kid of about 4 or 5 in a takeaway restuarant once asked me if I was a man or a woman so I pushed him off the counter and that shut him up. Any other looks I get (usually from big fat heffers scoffing hamburgers in town centres) I just make chomp-chomp-I-can't-stop-eating-gestures at, by which point they either threaten to kill me inbetween mouthfuls, or waddle in my direction like something out of the hit film, I'm-so-fat-that-I-can't-walk (and I have slow metabolism).

Being transsexual isn't without dangers agreed, but if I'm going to get abused I'd much rather it be because I've just told some bloke that he could have done much better, while pointing at his fat wife and ugly children.

As for laws protecting transsexuals, they're almost not worth the paper they're printed on. So few solicitors will touch transsexual cases, and without a solicitor in the firstplace you're kind of screwed before you even begin.

Best advice is to just disappear and fit into society rather than change it. Sad but true. And ironic too. Equal rights for all, as long as you don't interfere with anyone else's rights. Their rights to not have their delicate minds clouded with such issues as, "Am I a nice person," or, "Should I have to worry about other people's feelings."

Figure that lot out and you'll be onto a winner.

There are many, many things about transitioning the are very
difficult, painful, frightening and unfair.

Getting and keeping a job is one of them.

If you are already at a job, and then transition, it can be very
hard. If you are able to keep your job there may be many that
will make your situation challenging. Neither the males nor the
females will want you in their restroom. You may get dirty looks,
and snide comments. Many times you may feel that you are in
physical danger.

And that may even be in a company that has a policy that states
it is trans-friendly. Because even if the company wants to do the
right thing either for economic reasons or for ethical ones, there will
be many of it's employees that will remain transphobic.

Sometimes if you are lucky while you are transitioning you will catch
a break and your job will be cool, and will have a zero tolerance policy
about 'fucking with people'.

Usually though you will end up leaving that company, continuing
your transition and re-inventing yourself. If most of your work
experience and or education was after your transition, you may
fare pretty well. But if you have mainly worked in your former
gender then it becomes much more difficult to continue in the work
that you are qualified for.

Every women must make a choice as to how to proceed, what
is best for her at that time.

Ideally the women is able to make the choice that will have the
best long term results.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Great post Felicia. :wink:

~Kisses.

HTG

[peggygee]

Before I ask my next question I would like to go on
record as saying that I have had to do many things
that I would have preferred not to do in the furtherance
of my transition.

Thus I hope that the rest of this doesn't sound like it's
coming from some high and mighty, holier than thou
viewpoint.


There are many transwomen who pass better than me,
and are far more attractive than me.

There are many transwomen who are far more intelligent
and resourceful than me.

Thus the question is, how and why do so many transwomen
allow themselves to be discriminated against?

I know that you are fighters, for I have seen you fight.

I know that you are survivors, and a group that once they
put their mind to something, nothing will stand in their way.
This is evidenced by your ability to surmount all the odds in
your quest to transition.

Yet, I also know that for me if someone says I can not do
something that I have set my heart on doing, or attempts
to prevent me from getting to a goal, then it makes me
fight all the harder to get to that goal.

And as a African - American, woman, transwoman many have
attempted to deter me from my goal.

As a Black person I have been told I couldn't have certain jobs,
live in certain places.

As a woman I was told I couldn't have a certain job, or that I
would earn less if I were to get it.

As a transwoman, I too have had people treat me like shit, put
my business on front street, I have been attacked, and endured
countless other atrocities.

But I gotta say in none of those instances was I gonna give those
sons and daughters of bitches the victory, I literally would have
chosen to die.

Now I didn't win every battle I fought, but over time it did get better
for me, and I got many of the things I wanted.

But bottom line, and through it all, win or lose, I was the Captain of
my ship, and could not, would not allow society to control my destiny.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I found this other interesting article about Transexual employment discrimination at this site:

http://www.lawmemo.com/101/2006/04/transsexual_dis.html

The law on discrimination against transsexuals is changing.

A transsexual is a person whose gender identity does not match the sex that was assigned at birth. Some transsexuals get medical treatment (surgery or hormones or both) in order to bring their body into alignment with their gender identity.

Title VII:

Title VII forbids discrimination "because of sex," and one legal question is whether this forbids discrimination because a person is a transsexual.

The bulk of the courts to address this issue hold that Title VII does not forbid discrimination because of transsexuality because that's not discrimination "because of sex."

A recently-developed theory discussed in some cases is that transsexuals are victims of "sexual stereotyping" as discussed in Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, 490 US 228 (1989). The difficulty with this theory is that a person who came into life identified as female and is now male often acts in a typical male fashion, so there really is no "sexual stereotyping" involved.

A third theory is that transsexuals simply are being discriminated against "because of sex." This theory is new, not well developed, and has not been used by many courts. One example is Schroer v. Billington (D DC 03/31/2006).

I've suggested a fourth theory: I reason by analogy to religion discrimination. If an individual changes from being a Mormon to being a Baptist, and that's the reason the person gets fired (or not hired), then I think that would be a clear-cut case of discrimination "because of religion." If someone changes from being a man to being a woman, and that's the reason the person gets fired (or not hired), then that should constitute discrimination "because of sex." I don't know of any courts that have adopted this idea, and I can't figure out why.

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA):

The ADA, which protects against discrimination because an individual's disability, specifically excludes protection from discrimination on the basis of being a transsexual, or having a gender identity disorder or sexual behavior disorder.

State laws:

The laws of some states and some local governments do provide protection against transsexual discrimination.
__________________________________________________ ___________

The fouth theory makes alot of sense to me. Unfortunately, whatever laws and protections transgenders have..Its not being fully enforced. :evil:

~Kisses.

HTG

[chefmike]

Thanx for posting that article, geisha. Very informative.

[peggygee]

And just a quick post script to the above post, with as much
work as I have had done over the years I of course know the
costs monetary and otherwise of transitioning.

So for me, I ended up with a number of foreign surgeons for
everything but my face, but we still got the job done.

Under budget. 8)

[Alison Faraday]

Excellent posts coming out here. ((((hugs)))) to all here. It's great to see intelligent warm truths coming out.

There is a negative air to it all, and I think that's a price we pay somehow. It's unfortunate yet how you deal with it is coming through.

The thing which I can't stand and I instantly switch off to is transsexuals screaming victimisation and how the world is so terrible and awful. NONE of you here are doing that. :)

For the most part in real life (aside from the escorting and shoots) I keep myself totally to myself. I don't rock the boat or cause trouble. Which is a new approach. And it works!! It's not really to gain anything out of manipulation or deliberate attempts to get things out of people. But on the whole I've found it much easier in recent years to just get on with people and be nice. It doesn't cost anything. It's as easy to be nice as it is horrible.

I've had my yahoo group (4000 members) deleted tonight and some dickhead sending me messages saying "I'll be next." While I haven't responded my natural reaction is, "Oh well *shrugs*." I truly just do not care.

And when reading these posts in this thread I come away thinking. You've plodded on. You've got there. You've achieved things that very few could achieve. So if ever you needed (we all do sometimes) recognition then this is it. You've done it!!

What else I can say here I'm not quite sure. But tomorrow is another day. There is no grand plan or mastermind end game. You just keep on going. Cynical words behind all of this maybe. But I truly do not think I'm better or more worthy than anyone else. In a way I wish I did have bags of self confidence and an ego to feed.

I hope it all works out for you all. And if anyone does need a bit of support I can point you in the direction of some 'sane' transsexual yahoo groups of about 1000-members. Some are just tvs, some are hell-bent tss. But they'll listen and bounce back your feelings in a constructive kind of way.

(((hugs)))

Don't anybody here ever get down. There is always another way. At the end of all of this, all of us are just people, with feelings and a need to be liked and to feel wanted. I like being human (most of the time).

[Shining Star]

Thanx for posting that article, geisha. Very informative.Sadly Federal laws and even some state/local laws do not cover discrimination against transexuals unless they specifically state "gender ID" or some such.

Anyone who has ever worked for a living knows there are so many ways a business can fire you without running afoul of various laws. The easy way is to simply keep writing you up/giving warnings for all and sundry (lateness, attendence, job performance, etc), until enough paper work is established to leave a paper trial that will stand up in court.

Another way (and a TS was recently fired from her job because of this), is to enforce the part of a job application that states one is being truthful in all information being submitted on said application, or risk being fired. If a trannie checks off female and is male, technically that is not true and she could be fired. Weather or not the business will take the risk of a court battle is anyone's guess. Many trannies have somewhat convoluted ID's in that they may have gone to high school, college and even grad school as one sex, and now applying for a job as another. When an employer asks for education information on an application/begins to check education history, things can become complicated.

Remember also many jobs have a probation period, and indeed laws state new employees can be fired without notice up to three months after being hired.

Things are going to probably become more difficult for trannies in 2008 when the new Federal law regarding "Real ID"/drivers licenses becomes effective. Under that law states will now be required to see vaild proof in terms of a birth certificate or passport before issuing or renewing a drivers license. Lots of non-op or pre-op girls have ID that says female for many reasons, including the kindness a DMV employee. That will change as one is going to have to bring a certified copy of a birth certificate, even for a renewal of a drivers license.

[olite71]

sorry Peggy, but for most people State law is their best and only remedy. Federal law currently provides only limited protection to transgender people. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits sex discrimination in the workplace and most federal courts have held that Congress did not intend this to include gender identity or sexual orientation. There have been some recent cases but none have really changed the status quo. In addition, no federal coverage is provided by the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA). which specifically exempted the transgender community from coverage.

The First Amendment protects public expression from governmental regulation and doesn't really apply to an private employer which can and will regularly limit or proscribe forms of expression for "business reasons".

Equal Protection applies to identifiable groups with "immutable" characteristcs, so generally is limited to race and sex and age. Transgender by virtue of the fact its about change is not really a classic "suspect class" for an equal protection argument yet.

All of this high minded legal talk takes place in an unrealistic vaccum. As Alison alludes to (great post by the way) and as Caleigh's story illustrates, very few if any employers will risk a lawsuit, even one they will win, and fire someone expressly for being TG. No, they will find some pretext to make it a legitimate business decision. You will get fired for being late or poor reviews or bad client rapport or something like that, or you will be let go in the next downsizing, or restructuring or your position will be redefined, or outsourced or what have you.

Sad, but true.

FK


This is a sound analysis (and I'm an attorney)... But the employer doesn't even have to go so far as inventing a pretext....It can be a legitimate business decision to say that your alternative lifestyle can cause the loss of clientele, therefore endangering the viability of the business (if this is indeed true)... This "pretext" does not hold water for protected classes under the Civil Rights Act and the case law interpreting it of course, but if transgendered people are not such a protected class...as you state, then terminating them because their lifestyle is hurting the business can be a legitimate reason.


Basically if being transgender does not rise to the level of a protected class, then 'being transgender' is no different than engaging in conduct that would be actionable---like stealing from the employer.

We must all remember that most employment is "at will" therefore the employer has the freedom to terminate and the employee has the freedom to quit... I think the market should take care of itself here....If a person were even protected as a transgendered individual but the employer hated it, and the environment in the employer's workplace were an uncomfortable one for a transgendered person, then logic would dicate that the trangended person would not want to work there and would quit in the workplace.

That's the market baby....and that's why you don't see people who like long hair and piercings looking for jobs at insurance companies---why the hell would they want to hang out with a bunch of straight shooters from 9-5?

[olite71]

Excellent posts coming out here. ((((hugs)))) to all here. It's great to see intelligent warm truths coming out.

There is a negative air to it all, and I think that's a price we pay somehow. It's unfortunate yet how you deal with it is coming through.

The thing which I can't stand and I instantly switch off to is transsexuals screaming victimisation and how the world is so terrible and awful. NONE of you here are doing that. :)

For the most part in real life (aside from the escorting and shoots) I keep myself totally to myself. I don't rock the boat or cause trouble. Which is a new approach. And it works!! It's not really to gain anything out of manipulation or deliberate attempts to get things out of people. But on the whole I've found it much easier in recent years to just get on with people and be nice. It doesn't cost anything. It's as easy to be nice as it is horrible.

I've had my yahoo group (4000 members) deleted tonight and some dickhead sending me messages saying "I'll be next." While I haven't responded my natural reaction is, "Oh well *shrugs*." I truly just do not care.

And when reading these posts in this thread I come away thinking. You've plodded on. You've got there. You've achieved things that very few could achieve. So if ever you needed (we all do sometimes) recognition then this is it. You've done it!!

What else I can say here I'm not quite sure. But tomorrow is another day. There is no grand plan or mastermind end game. You just keep on going. Cynical words behind all of this maybe. But I truly do not think I'm better or more worthy than anyone else. In a way I wish I did have bags of self confidence and an ego to feed.

I hope it all works out for you all. And if anyone does need a bit of support I can point you in the direction of some 'sane' transsexual yahoo groups of about 1000-members. Some are just tvs, some are hell-bent tss. But they'll listen and bounce back your feelings in a constructive kind of way.

(((hugs)))

Don't anybody here ever get down. There is always another way. At the end of all of this, all of us are just people, with feelings and a need to be liked and to feel wanted. I like being human (most of the time).

BTW, your first post was quite entertaining---thought I was reading Mary Amis there for a minute...Cheers!

[BrendaQG]

The market? What a bunch of B.S.

By that logic transsexuals should limit themselves to careers where a TS belongs like porno, drag shows, modeling, hair and makeup, and prostitution. Since those are places where the market will tolerate a transsexual. Careers where the TS is not in charge of anything important or sensitive.

Basically we should resign ourselves to being a sterotype pure and simple.

Don't get me wrong those are all legit ways to make good money but those things aren't for everyone. Not long term, certainly not forever heck you get old and can't do some of those things.

We just have to keep looking keep hacking at it. Keep working.

[olite71]

The market? What a bunch of B.S.

By that logic transsexuals should limit themselves to careers where a TS belongs like porno, drag shows, modeling, hair and makeup, and prostitution. Since those are places where the market will tolerate a transsexual. Careers where the TS is not in charge of anything important or sensitive.

Basically we should resign ourselves to being a sterotype pure and simple.

Don't get me wrong those are all legit ways to make good money but those things aren't for everyone. Not long term, certainly not forever heck you get old and can't do some of those things.

We just have to keep looking keep hacking at it. Keep working.


Please don't create a strawman out of my argument... My logic implicates nothing of the kind...

I'm for employers hiring who they want, and employees working where they want...

For the most part the modern employer wants to make money--if a person helps the business make money--then hire them... If not, then don't That's pure market...Employers that pass on a transexual who is better qualified than a non-transexual because of the gender issue, then the employer will suffer--that's the market at work..and the employer will learn by suffering that they should hire based on merit, period.

If an employer wants to be narrow minded and fill its place of employment with only those who "fit in" then that employer will have to sacrifice quality to achieve conformity....And by sacrificing quality, the employer will suffer in the marketplace and change.

Creating a law to "protect" more and more classes puts the employer in a place where they worry about lawsuits and not about what doing their business--and often leads to hiring less qualified people for the precise reason of avoiding a lawsuit...This is bad policy... Of course, an exception to this market rule, Affirmative Action had its place and I believe it did a lot of good, and still does in certain circumstances. (and i could make a market based argument for AA but that's too complex to go into now).

But please don't tell me there should be an "affirmative action" for transexuals. Try telling the "travail" of self chosen transexuals to a black person--who had no choice about being black in the matter---who grew up in the thirties.


The market has room for all types, races, creeds and colors--is it harder for some? Of course...but those obstacles aren't something that you can just change over night with a law (and the law can be circumvented anyway as noted by Alison)....and you won't either. Attitudes need to change --and they are changing...The world is a much more accepting place for diversity today then it was 50 years ago--and it is always improving...

[BrendaQG]

Umm I am black so don't tell me about black people.

In speaking of black people look back at the jobs black people used to occupy back when they were totally at the mercy of the prejudices of the "market". Black people were relagated to being servile and it was considered unusual to see a black person is a higher capacity.

I don't want to sound like I am whineing, but perhaps this will give you some perspective. I have a B.S. in Physics and will soon get a M.S. in physics (god willing). Here is a job I should be qualified for and have applied for, Written letters to the appropiate people asking about etc.

Scientific Assistant @ Argonne national lab (http://www.anl.gov/jobsearch/detail.jsp?userreqid=310316+PHY)

Job Description
Basic Purpose
The superconducting heavy-ion accelerator ATLAS is used for a broad range of nuclear physics and nuclear astrophysics research. This individual will help design, fabricate and install scientific equipment to be used in support of experimental research at the ATLAS accelerator.

Knowledge, Skills and Experience
Other: Bachelor`s degree in physics, engineering, or a closely related field and experience working in a research laboratory environment is required. Aptitude and skills in mechanical design and assembly, vacuum technology, radiation detectors, and computing are desireable. The abiltiy to work as a member of a team is crucial for this multi-faceted research position. Bachelor's Degree and 0-1 year of experience/equivalent Associate's Degree and 9-10 years experience/equivalent

You see I'm not asking for the sun moon and stars here. That job is the bottom most rung on the ladder. I just want a chance to pull myself up the rest of the way from there. That job has been posted and unfilled since may of last year. This system is automated so that when someone is hired for a certain job the listing comes down. I have checked with my inside sources and that unit has hired no one at all. Probably because I am literally the only person in the USA who is neither over or under qualified for that job. Yet I do not get hired.

The only reason for them not to hire me is that the same grapevine that tells me who has what job, has told them of my personal situation. I know it is the bureaucrats at that lab that stand between me and the job. The scientist literally don't care if they hire a chimp, they want help.

It's just plain ignorant not to hire someone or to fire a qualified person because they are TS.

[olite71]

It's just plain ignorant not to hire someone or to fire a qualified person because they are TS.[/quote]


Whether it is "plain ignorant" is hard to say--there may be many factors involved...and I'm not going to "guess" at the motives behind the decisions.... But if "plain ignorance" is guiding the decisions, then that company being "plain ignorant" in today's competitive marketplace will eventually decline and disappear... The market is ultra-competitive and the ignorant give way to the enlightened. Maybe it won't happen tomorrow but it WILL happen.

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/81813507245ccbc7647828.gif

[SarahG]

....But the employer doesn't even have to go so far as inventing a pretext....It can be a legitimate business decision to say that your alternative lifestyle can cause the loss of clientele, therefore endangering the viability of the business... This "pretext" does not hold water for protected classes under the Civil Rights Act and the case law interpreting it of course....

And


Federal law prohibits discrimination based on sex in
public employment.6 This law prohibits discrimination
based on sex stereotypes.7

To bring up an example that does not involve GID in any way, but is directly related to these types of cases.....

Many employers in specific types of fields have been able to mandate their employees confirm to certain sex stereotypes under penalty of termination for noncompliance... resorts and hotels and certain types of sales positions have for many many years, been able to put in place company policies requiring girls to do certain things with their appearance. Typically such policies require girls to have nonbutch hairstyles, wear certain types and amount of makeup, pluck their eyebrows, keep decent cared for nails- stuff like that while likewise requiring male employees to keep hair and nails short, and facial hair shaved (and this is all without getting into dress codes)... these policies have been regularly challenged in the courts under the argument that such policies discriminate based on sex stereotypes. The employers traditionally make the argument referred to by olite71 that employees who are noncompliant with such policies hurt the company... and the courts have routinely on both state and federal levels sided with corporations and employers on these types of cases.

Of course, most of this is a moot point because unless the employer is really really stupid, it is very easy to let an employee go without risking wrongful termination litigation. Someone could be fired for not being stereotypically feminine enough or for being trans or for whatever else and so long the company doesn't go right out and say "we dont like the fact you're different so we're letting you go"- there really isnt a case for the employee (as saying you were fired for being trans- even if that is what really happened- doesn't mean shit if there is no evidence to possibly back up that assertion... especially if the company's documentation pertaining to your dismissal was based on unrelated grounds). This doesn't have to be a discrimination scenario either, a close friend of mine was exceedingly good at his job, but his boss hated him... it took 13 years but the manager eventually found an excuse to terminate him (the eventual justification used? the fact that he made one personal phone call in 13 yrs while not on a lunch break). I don't care how good an employee is, there is always something at some point in an employee's time in a position where a policy rule is broken which can provide a manager/etc the means to fire the employee.

Generally these protectionary laws are only really used in the "real world" if the company is stupid enough to openly discriminate in a way which provides the employee(s) with solid cases... unless you make the argument that these laws symbolically work by showing companies that they can't pull off this shit anymore... but I think that is a weak argument.