Transexuals and religion?

[Vala_TS]

First of all, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS TOPIC. THANKS!


Anyway, I am wondering. How many tgirls actually believe in any religion? Personally, if you asked me, I'd say none because if I was a tgirl, I wouldn't believe in any religion because all of them say there is no such thing as being gay/les/bi/trans but what is the actual state of affairs in that department?

I did not mean to offend anyone so sorry if I did.

Thanks,
AGTFB

[Smog Boy]

Interesting topic.

While Religion isn't keen on gays/lesbians etc, they do seem to have an open policy on pedophiles.

[BeardedOne]

There are some religions (Neo-Pagan, Druid, Unitarian) that don't give a rat's patoot who you blow, so long as you're a good-hearted person.

As to the pedophile comment: Mee-ROW! Fssst! :lol:

[Bic]

i dont know if they do or not. this is a good subjsct. i renounce my religion and any one for that matter. i think its wrong.

apprently the US government never heard of the seperation of chuch and state. if they did gays can get married whit out hassel. sorry to get offtopic but if the Tgirls on here want to do what they want , i say let them. no religion should stop them :)

[Vala_TS]

I used to be christian but I quit that because I couldn't stand going to church every damn sunday listening about how it's a sin to be human and I was going to hell anyway so I just quit it, I was fed up, I believe in SCIENCE now. Plus, I like trannies and all sorts of other kinky stuff that would have been though as sins like much of us on here.

I'd like to hear some transexuals' viewpoints on this matter.

AGTFB

[Bic]

I used to be christian but I quit that because I couldn't stand going to church every damn sunday listening about how it's a sin to be human and I was going to hell anyway so I just quit it, I was fed up, I believe in SCIENCE now. Plus, I like trannies and all sorts of other kinky stuff that would have been though as sins like much of us on here.

I'd like to hear some transexuals' viewpoints on this matter.

AGTFB

i like your thinking. i quite my religion too :)

[Vala_TS]

I used to be christian but I quit that because I couldn't stand going to church every damn sunday listening about how it's a sin to be human and I was going to hell anyway so I just quit it, I was fed up, I believe in SCIENCE now. Plus, I like trannies and all sorts of other kinky stuff that would have been though as sins like much of us on here.

I'd like to hear some transexuals' viewpoints on this matter.

AGTFB

i like your thinking. i quite my religion too :)

Thanks!

I quit celebrating xmas since it's religious, I mainly celebrate the 4th of July and New Years now.

AGTFB

[peggygee]

I tend to adopt a 'cafeteria' approach to religion as
I have studied and belonged to a number. I tend to
take the best from each and leave the dogma and
rhetoric that do not meet my needs behind.

I am also not a fan of those that proselytize or try to
shove 'their' religions down 'your' throats. Nor do I
agree with those that feel that their deity or God is
bigger or better than your God, or that they are the
only chosen ones.

Finally, I can understand people that have no belief in
a deity, ie are atheist. Or those that one who is not
committed to believing in either the existence or the
nonexistence of God or a god, ie agnostic.

And though I will readily admit to having firm and strong
beliefs in the God of my understanding, I do tend to have
secular humanist leanings as well:

Tenets

Secular humanism describes a world view with the following
elements and principles:

Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies
and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must
be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply
accepted on faith.

Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the
use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods
of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions
to human problems and answers to important human questions.

Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment,
growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in
general.

Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth,
with the understanding that new knowledge and experience
constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making
it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves,
our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and
the outlooks of those who differ from us.

Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles
of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human
well-being and individual responsibility.

Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open
exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made
in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

[Kabuki]

I was raised as a Christian, but I'm close to being more of a Buddhist. Homosexuals and Transgendered individuals seem to be accepted, but I believe the Dali Lama condemns anal sex though. Hetero and Homosexual anal sex.

I could never be a true Christian with my feelings that I have for TGs, and random cute boys :wink: I'm suppose to burn in hell, but I'm not going to get started on this topic. I really wanted to say that the average Buddhist teachings aren't bad to follow.

[yodajazz]

I found a religious philosophy I liked years ago called Religious Science. The thing I liked about it is that it didn’t reject anyone’s religious belief. In fact it emphasis’s the common things among many religions. I find that two religions agree on 90 out of 100 tenets, so they fight to the death over the 10 things of disagreement. Meanwhile they are ignoring 50 tenets of the religion they say they are holding so dear. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the biggest offenders. I consider myself a Christian. I personally feel that most Bhuddists are more Christian than most Christians.

All religions have contradictory tenets because God encompasses all. To put an example; the universe is both hot and cold. It is up to us to find the comfortable middle where life thrives. We have to use those Humanist principles that Peggygee describes to find the best practice.

Most religious people consider books like the Bible or the Koran to be the word of God. They are, but the creation credited to God, is still ongoing. So we are presented with new realities to interpret those words for our own daily lives.

In the same passage as Jesus talked about marriage he talked about eunuchs. So many people quote the part about marriage “Male and female he made them.” They don’t go into what he said about eunuchs. “He started off by saying, “Now everyone cannot understand this…”. The passage ends with him saying something like “Those that can understand, should accept it” (depending on the translated version). He said that some were born that way and some were made that way by men.

I have to find the exact passage.

[RangeHova]

First of all, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS TOPIC. THANKS!


Anyway, I am wondering. How many tgirls actually believe in any religion? Personally, if you asked me, I'd say none because if I was a tgirl, I wouldn't believe in any religion because all of them say there is no such thing as being gay/les/bi/trans but what is the actual state of affairs in that department?

I did not mean to offend anyone so sorry if I did.

Thanks,
AGTFB

I don't think any mainstream religion addresses that TS issue at all. The Bible may say that a man should not act like a woman but if you are a TS then you don't see yourself as being a man at all.

Organized religion and the humans within organized religion may have thier human issues that just come with being a member of society may have issues being open to and understanding the transsexual but the religions themselves and the writings in which they are based from do not speak of the issue at all.

[Coroner]

Religion :lol:

40 % of Vienna´s population are atheists. 60 % of Austria´s population have left the church but this doesn´t mean that all of them are atheists because many people don´t want to pay that taxes to the church.

I´m wondering also if the girls here believe in god and such stuff :lol:

It´s mostly women who believe in god although all monotheist religions are anti-women, anti-gay and totally anti-sex. Religions are against our own nature, so the bible is probably the best evidence that there´s no god :D

Religion is just the oldest weapon of manipulation together with that national crap. If you´re christian, you gotta pay. If you´re American, Austrian or whatever, you gotta pay, too.

Hey, I´m going the paths of offtopic, too :)

[sucka4chix]

apprently the US government never heard of the seperation of chuch and state.
Because there is no such thing, please show it to me in the constitution.It's a mythical principle that some use to promote their agenda and billions of others blindly accept as factual--- so sad!

And now that we know how t-girl chasers feel, can we get some responses from t-girls, isn't that what this thread was about!?

[BrendaQG]

أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله وأشهد أن محمد الرسول الله
I Bear witness that there is no deity but god and Muhammad was gods messenger.

This is the Shahada, the Muslim profession of faith, I believe it and I try (and often fail) to live by the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. Which were not all hostile to being a transsexual or as they called them in Arabic مخنثون (Mukhannathun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun) )even in one story he protected one from a group of people who wanted and expected him to execute the transsexual.
I will admit that I did convert to this religion during a brief period of my life where I was ashamed of what I was and how I had acted in the past. I was pleasantly surprised by the disposition of Muhammad towards transsexuals.

I am really not very religious however. I would say I am very spiritual and that the spirituality of Muslims is closest to mine.

Many transsexuals including the girls you see here profess some religion or the other. Those who do have had to examine the articles of their faith, religious text and such . The fact is there is really no religion that expressly forbids simply being a transsexual.....however they do forbid the enterprises we are often boxed into by other peopels bigotry.

[marissaazts]

110% atheist

[yodajazz]

[quote=AGTFB]First of all, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS TOPIC. THANKS!


I don't think any mainstream religion addresses that TS issue at all. The Bible may say that a man should not act like a woman but if you are a TS then you don't see yourself as being a man at all.

Organized religion and the humans within organized religion may have thier human issues that just come with being a member of society may have issues being open to and understanding the transsexual but the religions themselves and the writings in which they are based from do not speak of the issue at all.

The Bible never directly addressed issues like cell phones, traffic jams, or air pollution either, but talks about general principles. Christ often used analogies and used stories called parables to makes his point. I believe that when Jesus spoke about eunuchs, this applies to transsexuals today. This principle can also be applied to all gender variants such as gays, and lesbians also. But he also did not condemn people for not being able to accept those gender variants either. He said that those who understand should accept it.

While the bible may say that men should not act like women. But today's understaning of gender is much more complex than it was. There are other principles which say that we should not judge others; and that we should love our neighbors. We have to decide which principle is most important at any given time.

[wombat33]

Interesting topic.

While Religion isn't keen on gays/lesbians etc, they do seem to have an open policy on pedophiles.


Classic!

[trish]

this girl's not theist, but it has little to do with gender identification. even though we all create ourselves to some extent, i just don't believe any being can design and create itself from scratch. taking that as axiomatic, we're left with a being who created everyone who didn't create themselves...but such a being is a logical impossibility.

seriously...i'm not a religious person and i also have trouble with all authority figures, including gods and goddesses.

loves: men who screw with their cocks and think with their brains.
hates: religions that make false yet unretractable empirical claims.
scotch: glenfidditch

[Ecstatic]

apprently the US government never heard of the seperation of chuch and state.
Because there is no such thing, please show it to me in the constitution.It's a mythical principle that some use to promote their agenda and billions of others blindly accept as factual--- so sad!
The phrase "separation of church and state" actually devolves from a letter written by President Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury (CT) Baptist Association, and is shorted from his original phrase, "wall of separation between church and state." Here is the relevant passage in the letter:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

Note that in this letter, Jefferson quotes the US Constitution where it does indeed address the issue (though a tad obliquely, leading to various interpretations down the centuries since): "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

These two clauses (respectively the Establishment Clause, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," and the Free Exercise Clause, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof") collectively form the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Firstly, this has been seen, and upheld by the Supreme Court, as a prohibition against Congress establishing a national religion, and secondly, as a prohibition against the preference of one religion over another or of religion over non-religious philosophies. The Clauses were added as a reaction to the Church of England, which had been established as the official church of England, and some colonies, during the colonial period.

Regarding Buddhism and homosexuality/transsexuality, the Buddha himself left no specific teaching relating to homosexual or other non-heterosexual behavior in itself; rather, he specified five principle of Right Conduct, one of which is "I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from sexual misconduct." As Buddhism is a vast and diverse religion (numbering over 350 millions adherents in a number of very distinct branches), there is no uniformity of belief regarding homosexuality or transsexuality.

In the Theravada (Southern) School, practiced for instance by over 90% of all Thai people, sexual misconduct is usually seen as adultery, child molestation, incest, rape, sexual abuse in any form, and sexual harassment, but not as consensual sexual activity by a couple in a commited relationship, regardless of whether that relationship is heterosexual or homosexual. Thus, from a Theravadan viewpoint, all relationship, whether straight, gay or lesbian, are seen as matters of personal and mutual consent, and if the relationship promotes the happiness and well-being of both members, it is seen as positive. Sexual orientation and gender, like race, are seen as beyond a person's control (though the result of past karma), and civil rights and benefits extend to all.

In Zen and other Mahayana Schools, the emphasis tends to be on treating sexuality as an aspect of the broader category of sensual indulgence: such is a violation of the middle path. Thus homosexuality is acceptable, but indulgence in sexual activity, particularly for self-pleasure, is not. The Zen expression is "I take up the way of not misusing sex."

Tibetan Buddhism tends to take a harder line on homosexuality, though I don't know anything regarding transsexuals in the Tibetan view. Thus, religioustolerance.org has this to say about the Dalai Lama:

The Dalai Lama is the leader of the Tibetan people and is revered by millions of Buddhists worldwide. At a press conference in 1997-JUN, he commented: "From a Buddhist point of view [lesbian and gay sex]...is generally considered sexual misconduct". This belief is not based on the partners being of the same gender. In his book "Beyond Dogma," he has written that "homosexuality, whether it is between men or between women, is not improper in itself. What is improper is the use of organs already defined as inappropriate for sexual contact." Buddhism prohibits oral, manual and anal sex for everyone - both homosexuals and heterosexuals. However, these restrictions refer only to members of the Buddhist faith. 4 From "society's viewpoint," same-sex relations can be "of mutual benefit, enjoyable and harmless." He supports human rights "regardless of sexual orientation." At a subsequent meeting with gay and lesbian representatives, he expressed the "willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context." Dawa Tsering, spokesperson for the Office of Tibet commented: "His Holiness opposes violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation. He urges respect, tolerance, compassion and the full recognition of human rights for all." 5

An article in Newsweek states that "Although he has affirmed the dignity and rights of gays and lesbians, he has condemned homosexual acts as contrary to Buddhist ethics."

I am a Buddhist, though with no formal affiliation.

[ezed]

Fuck religion. Be good. Stop having to call yourself something. Try calling yourself a good person.

[werwt22]

apprently the US government never heard of the seperation of chuch and state.
Because there is no such thing, please show it to me in the constitution.It's a mythical principle that some use to promote their agenda and billions of others blindly accept as factual--- so sad!



LMAO show it to you in the constitution? "so sad" you didnt do your research. Our laws and constitution were originally based on ideas and principals from the bible and the ten commandments. Most men and/or women that step into power are men and/or women of "faith", so what influence do you think the church has on the government?

I'd like to call myself a Christian and the Lord knows I try but TS are a guilty pleasure for me. It doesnt exactly mean I'm going to hell...its a forgivable sin. Just b/c I indulge in it at times doesnt mean I'll throw away the idea of religion b/c it doesnt fit what I "want" to do all the time like some. Religion isnt an easy issue or way of life. It requires effort and not some miniscule amount. If you choose to give up then thats up to you(in general) but you might want to watch who's toes you step on with this topic.

[werwt22]

First of all, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS TOPIC. THANKS!


I don't think any mainstream religion addresses that TS issue at all. The Bible may say that a man should not act like a woman but if you are a TS then you don't see yourself as being a man at all.

Organized religion and the humans within organized religion may have thier human issues that just come with being a member of society may have issues being open to and understanding the transsexual but the religions themselves and the writings in which they are based from do not speak of the issue at all.

The Bible never directly addressed issues like cell phones, traffic jams, or air pollution either, but talks about general principles. Christ often used analogies and used stories called parables to makes his point. I believe that when Jesus spoke about eunuchs, this applies to transsexuals today. This principle can also be applied to all gender variants such as gays, and lesbians also. But he also did not condemn people for not being able to accept those gender variants either. He said that those who understand should accept it.

While the bible may say that men should not act like women. But today's understaning of gender is much more complex than it was. There are other principles which say that we should not judge others; and that we should love our neighbors. We have to decide which principle is most important at any given time.

That was pretty deep man.

quote="trish"]this girl's not theist, but it has little to do with gender identification. even though we all create ourselves to some extent, i just don't believe any being can design and create itself from scratch. taking that as axiomatic, we're left with a being who created everyone who didn't create themselves...but such a being is a logical impossibility.

seriously...i'm not a religious person and i also have trouble with all authority figures, including gods and goddesses.

loves: men who screw with their cocks and think with their brains.
hates: religions that make false yet unretractable empirical claims.
scotch: glenfidditch

All of these ideas you have are based off of worldy thoughts and God and the Heavens cant be limited to wordly factors such as time. What do you base the beginning and end of anything off of? "Time" So when time ceases to exist what would you base your ideas from?

[chefmike]

:shock:

[werwt22]

:shock:

LMAO Wow. That's hilarious.

[sucka4chix]

apprently the US government never heard of the seperation of chuch and state.
Because there is no such thing, please show it to me in the constitution.It's a mythical principle that some use to promote their agenda and billions of others blindly accept as factual--- so sad!



LMAO show it to you in the constitution? "so sad" you didnt do your research. Our laws and constitution were originally based on ideas and principals from the bible and the ten commandments. Most men and/or women that step into power are men and/or women of "faith", so what influence do you think the church has on the government?

I'd like to call myself a Christian and the Lord knows I try but TS are a guilty pleasure for me. It doesnt exactly mean I'm going to hell...its a forgivable sin. Just b/c I indulge in it at times doesnt mean I'll throw away the idea of religion b/c it doesnt fit what I "want" to do all the time like some. Religion isnt an easy issue or way of life. It requires effort and not some miniscule amount. If you choose to give up then thats up to you(in general) but you might want to watch who's toes you step on with this topic.
That's exactly my point--the so called separation of church and state is meant to keep government out of religion but lawyers and other diabolical types flipped the script and use the amendment to get religion out of government, which by the way is impossible. The foolish folk who say "fuck religion, call yourself good" need to realize everyone can have a different idea of what good is---hence you need some starting point that is concrete and unchangeable to base your laws upon. This is why we have a mess in the middle east---we are trying to establish a government there based on the beliefs that we founded this country on, but their beliefs and values are much different.

[sucka4chix]

I'd like to call myself a Christian and the Lord knows I try but TS are a guilty pleasure for me. It doesnt exactly mean I'm going to hell...its a forgivable sin. Just b/c I indulge in it at times doesnt mean I'll throw away the idea of religion b/c it doesnt fit what I "want" to do all the time like some. Religion isnt an easy issue or way of life. It requires effort and not some miniscule amount. If you choose to give up then thats up to you(in general) but you might want to watch who's toes you step on with this topic.
Hey, you're the one person who got it right! How sacred can your religion be or how valid your faith if you just "picked" one because you thought it fit your lifestyle best, and you're correct--- anyone who thinks they're necessarily condemned to hell because of their sins either attended the wrong church or didn't stay long enough to get the message. I think we (most of us) are celebrating Christmas, but apparently don't know why (heck even the Grinch figured that one out!)

[trish]

sucka4chix writes
That's exactly my point--the so called separation of church and state is meant to keep government out of religion but lawyers and other diabolical types flipped the script and use the amendment to get religion out of government, which by the way is impossible. The foolish folk who say "fuck" religion, call yourself good need to realize everyone can have a different idea of what is good

okay. let's suppose the wall was intended only to keep government out of religion but not vice-versa. but what does it mean to have religion IN government? doesn't that mean the beliefs of one sect can be imposed through legislation on everyone? how can that be religious freedom? if religion is allowed in government, then government will be allowed to interfere with religious belief...there's no getting around it. the wall of separation goes both ways, or it doesn't exist at all.

[trish]

Hey, you're the one person who got it right! How sacred can your religion be or how valid your faith if you just "picked" one because you thought it fit your lifestyle best, and you're correct--- anyone who thinks they're necessarily condemned to hell because of their sins either attended the wrong church or didn't stay long enough to get the message. I think we (most of us) are celebrating Christmas, but apparently don't know why (heck even the Grinch figured that one out!)

most people are simply indroctrinated into the religion of their parents. as far as celebrating christmas goes, i think most of us are just celebrating getting a few days off from work and an excuse to have some fun with family and friends.

[sucka4chix]

The phrase "separation of church and state" actually devolves from a letter written by President Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury (CT) Baptist Association, and is shorted from his original phrase, "wall of separation between church and state." Here is the relevant passage in the letter:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

Note that in this letter, Jefferson quotes the US Constitution where it does indeed address the issue (though a tad obliquely, leading to various interpretations down the centuries since): "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

These two clauses (respectively the Establishment Clause, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," and the Free Exercise Clause, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof") collectively form the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Firstly, this has been seen, and upheld by the Supreme Court, as a prohibition against Congress establishing a national religion, and secondly, as a prohibition against the preference of one religion over another or of religion over non-religious philosophies. The Clauses were added as a reaction to the Church of England, which had been established as the official church of England, and some colonies, during the colonial period.

Thanks for posting this. I already knew this but most people think the words "separation of church and state" are in the constitution. Basically the amendment forbids the government from telling people how to worship,not forbiding worship. And note that if no LAWS are being made by congress the amendment does not apply at all, but everytime someone utters anything that may appear on any page of the Bible (which pretty much is everything) in public some moron cries "separation of church and state"

[Kabuki]

apprently the US government never heard of the seperation of chuch and state.
Because there is no such thing, please show it to me in the constitution.It's a mythical principle that some use to promote their agenda and billions of others blindly accept as factual--- so sad!



LMAO show it to you in the constitution? "so sad" you didnt do your research. Our laws and constitution were originally based on ideas and principals from the bible and the ten commandments. Most men and/or women that step into power are men and/or women of "faith", so what influence do you think the church has on the government?

I'd like to call myself a Christian and the Lord knows I try but TS are a guilty pleasure for me. It doesnt exactly mean I'm going to hell...its a forgivable sin. Just b/c I indulge in it at times doesnt mean I'll throw away the idea of religion b/c it doesnt fit what I "want" to do all the time like some. Religion isnt an easy issue or way of life. It requires effort and not some miniscule amount. If you choose to give up then thats up to you(in general) but you might want to watch who's toes you step on with this topic.

You are incorrect about the constitution. Modern Christians would like you to believe that our laws were created by Christians. Most of the founding fathers were Deists. Do the research.

Read if your interested.

This was taken from a ESPN message board. The author is an user named "Mistwell"

"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420

At the time of the founding of the United States of America, the ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe began to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."

In fact, many of the people of the U.S. at the time of the drafting of the Constitution were Deists. Deists believe that some being created the universe, and thereafter ceased to interfere in the laws of the Universe, including the lives of man. Many Deists believed God basically left the Universe entirely, after its creation.

Many of the Founders of the nation, and the people influencing them, were Deists. Note the following about some of our Founding Fathers, and those who influenced them:

1. Thomas Paine. Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
This freethinker and author of several books, influenced more early Americans than any other writer. Although he held Deist beliefs, he wrote in his famous The Age of Reason:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "
"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity."
From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

2. George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance. Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism.

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

From: George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

3. John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From: The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

4. Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said: "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter," and,
"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." And, "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

From: Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

5. James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

From: The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

6. Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."

From: Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

7. Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian."
From: Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.

He further wrote: ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him: "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers"

8. Furthermore, the Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

[werwt22]

All that says is that some believe the church and information have been corrupted in the hands of man over time but how does that change what it was "based" from? Are you saying they didnt share similar beliefs and morals as Christians just b/c he didnt think in depth of how divine Jesus was? Hmmmm....let me see if I can find you a link. I was reading about it in a couple places. Damn this might turn into a long ass debate.

[Kabuki]

All that says is that some believe the church and information have been corrupted in the hands of man over time but how does that change what it was "based" from? Are you saying they didnt share similar beliefs and morals as Christians just b/c he didnt think in depth of how divine Jesus was? Hmmmm....let me see if I can find you a link. I was reading about it in a couple places. Damn this might turn into a long ass debate.

Did you even read my whole post?

"It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

What is a Deist?

"In fact, many of the people of the U.S. at the time of the drafting of the Constitution were Deists. Deists believe that some being created the universe, and thereafter ceased to interfere in the laws of the Universe, including the lives of man. Many Deists believed God basically left the Universe entirely, after its creation."

The founding fathers obviously had morals, but beliefs in Christanity?

"4. Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said: "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter," and,
"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." And, "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

Maybe I should highlight the whole post. Just go back and reference for yourself. Just documented facts buried by the Christian right.

[chefmike]

Thanks for posting this. I already knew this but most people think the words "separation of church and state" are in the constitution. Basically the amendment forbids the government from telling people how to worship,not forbiding worship. And note that if no LAWS are being made by congress the amendment does not apply at all, but everytime someone utters anything that may appear on any page of the Bible (which pretty much is everything) in public some moron cries "separation of church and state"

Separation of church and state?

Who needs that happy horseshit?

That BS was started by a handful of pinko pilgrams... nuthin' but a bunch of colonial commies... who maybe should have been killin' Injuns in Roossia instead of spoilin' our fun here! Right boys?

Separation of church and state?

Hell no, Jethro!

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned morality?

Burn that witch!

Stone that whore!

etc... :roll:

[sucka4chix]

same ol' cliche arguments that can be found all over the net!! The values that influenced the founding of America and its government are undeniable and the fingerprints of these values make debate unnecessary.
But regardless, whatever your OPINION about what the founders believed, it doesn't refute the fact that you can never separate religion, of some form, from civil government.
And by the way there's a distinct difference between church,religion, and god, but the myth pushers use them interchageably

[werwt22]

All that says is that some believe the church and information have been corrupted in the hands of man over time but how does that change what it was "based" from? Are you saying they didnt share similar beliefs and morals as Christians just b/c he didnt think in depth of how divine Jesus was? Hmmmm....let me see if I can find you a link. I was reading about it in a couple places. Damn this might turn into a long ass debate.

Did you even read my whole post?

"It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

What is a Deist?

"In fact, many of the people of the U.S. at the time of the drafting of the Constitution were Deists. Deists believe that some being created the universe, and thereafter ceased to interfere in the laws of the Universe, including the lives of man. Many Deists believed God basically left the Universe entirely, after its creation."

The founding fathers obviously had morals, but beliefs in Christanity?

"4. Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said: "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter," and,
"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." And, "The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."

Maybe I should highlight the whole post. Just go back and reference for yourself. Just documented facts buried by the Christian right.

Dont get me wrong. You bring up many great points but it would take far too long for me to individually quote each section I wanted to respond to, go find a quote, and return with a link for a thread that isnt even about what were speaking of aka "Hijacking". No offense btw.

[sucka4chix]

as far as celebrating christmas goes, i think most of us are just celebrating getting a few days off from work and an excuse to have some fun with family and friends.
people go into debt, wrap gifts, string up lights to celebrate days off, and need an excuse to have fun with family and friends? Damn y'all are pitiful.

[sucka4chix]

okay. let's suppose the wall was intended only to keep government out of religion but not vice-versa. but what does it mean to have religion IN government? doesn't that mean the beliefs of one sect can be imposed through legislation on everyone? how can that be religious freedom? if religion is allowed in government, then government will be allowed to interfere with religious belief...there's no getting around it. the wall of separation goes both ways, or it doesn't exist at all.
Exactly what does that mean to you---having religion IN government?Does it mean printing in god we trust on money,saying a prayer before government sessions,a president saying God bless america after an address, a congressman praying "God help us" after a tragedy?

And obviously you're not getting this---as it is written and intended it is exactly what you are talking about,government interference with religious beliefs, that the 1st amendment forbids. Your 2 way wall does away with religious freedom

[trish]

yeah...let's get government completely out of religion. tax them all. exempting some churches and not others is just the sort of recognition i'm sure you must be against.

[trish]

people go into debt, wrap gifts, string up lights to celebrate days off, and need an excuse to have fun with family and friends?

gift of the magi.


Damn y'all are pitiful.

hey, we're not the ones who still believe in fairy tales.

[Ecstatic]

Thanks for posting this. I already knew this but most people think the words "separation of church and state" are in the constitution. Basically the amendment forbids the government from telling people how to worship,not forbiding worship. And note that if no LAWS are being made by congress the amendment does not apply at all, but everytime someone utters anything that may appear on any page of the Bible (which pretty much is everything) in public some moron cries "separation of church and state"
You're welcome. Yes, the amendment speaks directly of passing any law regarding the establishment of religion or constraining the free exercise thereof, not of individuals in government drawing on their religious principles. In fact, they are free to do so. However, I find Rep. Goode's attack on Rep. Ellson's preference to be sworn in using the Koran rather than the Bible offensive: each elected official should be free to choose whatever document they wish to swear by, whether the Christian Bible, the Jewish Tanakh, the Koran, the Diamond Sutra, or Being and Nothingness.


You are incorrect about the constitution. Modern Christians would like you to believe that our laws were created by Christians. Most of the founding fathers were Deists. Do the research.


Excellent points, Kabuki. For clarification, Deism was introduced in the 16th century by Herbert of Cherbury, who established the "five pillars of deism": 1) belief in one God who created the world but does not intervene in its current state, either by revelation or by miracles; 2) an objective difference between right and wrong; 3) life's duty being the support of what is right; 4) the soul being immortal; and 5) the future condition of our life after death being directly related to our ethical conduct in this life. (Note: not all Deists adhere to these principles.)

A distinction should be made that, as Kabuki indicates, many of the Founding Fathers were Unitarians. However, note that the modern day Unitarian Universalist Church was not established until the previously separate religions, Unitarianism and Universalism, merged in 1961. In Jeffersonian times, Unitarianism was a distinct Christian movement which held the doctrine that God is one (as in the Deist doctrine, and as also held by Islam and Judaism and several early branches of Christianity declared heretical by the Council of Nicea and subsequent Councils) and that Jesus is to be regarded as human and not as a supernatural being or divinity. The first Unitarian Church was established in Transylvania in 1569, and by the middle of the 18th century Harvard College in Cambridge, Mass. was the center of the American Unitarian movement. King's Chapel at Harvard became a Unitarian Church in 1782, and by the beginning of the 19th century nearly all ministers in Boston were Unitarian.

Universalists held the belief that all souls would be saved, rejecting the idea of eternal damnation. The two movements gradual migrated together, until in 1961 they became a single religion, UU, which is probably the most diverse religious body in the world, and the most tolerant. There is no specific set of beliefs, and its members include agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, Humanists, Wiccans, and many others. They openly welcome homosexuals and transsexuals into their congregations. Only 9.3% identify themselves as Christian, according to a survey of 10,000 UU members conducted in 1997. Here's the complete listing:

46.1% Humanist. This is the most common belief system.
19% identify themselves as Nature or Earth centered religion (e.g. Wiccan, Druid or other Neopagan tradition.
13% describe themselves simply as Theist.
9.3% self-identify as Christian.
6.2% are mystic.
3.6% are Buddhist.
Other perspectives listed are Jewish at 1.3%, Hindu at 0.4%, Muslim at 0.1% and other at 13.3%

However, the modern-day UU is not the Unitarianism of Jefferson, though it has grown from those roots.

[guyone]

Actually most were Episcopalian with a smattering of Presbyterians.

Shouldn't this be on the Politics & Religion forum?

[ezed]

Throughout the history of the world, have you noticed something? There are more religions than Paddy has pigs. Why? Because someone previously in a religion didn't like a certain aspect of his, so he created his own. Why not? Religion as proven in the past to be a good money making franchise. None of these new religions can hope to attain the prowess of the Jews, Catholic and Muslims, they've been around for ever. But as a starter of a religion, you can carve out a fine living for yourself, even with as little as a few hundred followers. It's sort of like Amway or Mary Kay. The Egyptians illuminated this when they built the pyramids, but no one paid attention.

So, I'm thinking of branching out and starting a religion. Give me some ideas for the foundation of my church and I'll make you a disiple, or an apostle or some such latter day saint. AND will make your ideas part of our third reading at every Sunday or Saturday service ad infinitum.

THINK OF IT! "And now a reading from the third book of Guyone in his postings to the Transexuals......." This has potential!!!!