Coe warns transgender athletes pose risk to integrity of women’s sport

[Stavros]

From this-

"Under Coe’s watch, World Athletics has introduced strict rules for transgender athletes that mean they must keep their testosterone levels under a certain limit for at least 12 months before being allowed to compete internationally. Athletes with DSD (difference of sexual development) such as South Africa’s Caster Semenya have also been forced to restrict their testosterone levels (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/03/caster-semenya-south-africa-race-final-800m-testosterone) for six months to be permitted to compete internationally over certain distances."

to this

“Gender cannot trump biology. As a federation president, I do not have that luxury. It is a luxury that other organisations not at the practical end of having to deal with these issues have. But as far as I am concerned, the scientific evidence, the peer-reviewed work we have done, those regulations are the right approach.”
Coe warns transgender athletes pose risk to integrity of women’s sport | Sport | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/21/coe-warns-transgender-athletes-pose-risk-to-integrity-of-womens-sport)

Sport must control a person's body, right?

[MrFanti]

I know a few Democrat/Liberal lesbian athletes that have issues with transgender women in some sports.
As a man, I don't feel I'm qualified to get deeply into the discussion - but IMHO, it's worth looking at/observing how the lesbian community reacts.

Hopefully, this won't devolve into an insult level thread.

[Murmdrum]

I personally don't think its fair to the natural women. I don't pay much attention to it either tho. I certainly don't have the answers to whats fair either. just my respectful take on it

[Stavros]

The question of fairness in sport has long since parted company with the primacy of money, with now the added confusion that those in responsible positions cannot make a coherent statement. Thus Coe, who I presume agonises over the use of performance enhancing chemicals in the body, is obsessed with the chemical profile of trans athletes while ignoring something as basic as respect for the person's human rights, or even their legal rights, if they have any.

Thus too, Ron deDantis, who seems to think he can choose who is President of the US regardless of who the people vote for, now decides that as Governor of Florida, he can cancel a victory because he doesn't like the winner, whom he insults, thus-

"“It is my determination that men should not be competing against women such as Emma Weyant,” DeSantis wrote in his proclamation (https://twitter.com/GovRonDeSantis/status/1506315576674865153?s=20&t=v9eGQgYtBI5Ryde7ae02wA). “ … Florida rejects the NCAA’s efforts to destroy women’s athletics, disapproves of the NCAA elevating ideology over biology, and takes offense at the NCAA trying to make others complicit in a lie.”"
Florida governor says trans swimmer Lia Thomas was not ‘rightful winner’ of NCAA title | Swimming | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/23/ron-desantis-lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ncaa-title-florida)

The incoherence is thus:
-if the Sport recognises the right of transgendered athletes to compete, it cannot then complain when they win.
-If the Sport is going to determine the legitimacy of a contestant by referring to their chemical profile, then it must do so for all athletes, and if it is a case of Testosterones, draw up a chart to determine what level they must be in relation to basic indicators such as the age, height, body mass index of the athlete.
The same chart would be required for levels of oestrogen.

I doubt many people want this, and I doubt if, at present, the admin exists to process it. It also raises the question, does a female athlete perform below par when she is menstruating? I don't know how one even determines the validity of this argument.

The only solution to this, perhaps, is for transgendered athletes to decide not to compete, given that at the moment, the Sports admins can't make a coherent decision. I don't know if this is comparable to the times, in the US for example, when Black Americans were banned from participating in Sports, but on that level one can say we have been here before.

As for their legal, constitutional, and human rights, well one can hardly expect someone like deSantis or Trump to defend such rights when they are busy digging the grave into which such rights will be buried, with the zealous support of the State of Texas, where Rapists Have Rights, and women have none.

Here's another fine mess they have got us into. Only nobody's laughing this time.

[mildcigar_2001]

Just more Liberal nonsense.

Lia Thomas is probably a nice person, but has no business competing with female athletes.

Just look at the picture if you think there is any fairness in letting her compete. No wonder she won.

Look at her mass and bone structure compared with the other athletes.

https://images.lbc.co.uk/images/294587?crop=16_9&width=660&relax=1&signature=Dzyu36jnRyB6CAyNkh-Nz7UPmRQ=

[MrFanti]

I wonder if any ATHLETIC governing body has added full SRS as a "qualifier" for MTF Transgender in Women's sports....

[Luke Warm]

You could say the same thing about Shaq or Yao Ming… that it’s unfair to let these bigger people compete against the others. Anyway, body size isn’t necessarily an advantage, it depends on what the sport is.

the Governor of Utah just vetoed an anti-trans scholastic sports bill in his state, for being unnecessary overkill when there are only 5 trans athletes in the entire state competing in school sports.


Just more Liberal nonsense.

Lia Thomas is probably a nice person, but has no business competing with female athletes.

Just look at the picture if you think there is any fairness in letting her compete. No wonder she won.

Look at her mass and bone structure compared with the other athletes.

https://images.lbc.co.uk/images/294587?crop=16_9&width=660&relax=1&signature=Dzyu36jnRyB6CAyNkh-Nz7UPmRQ=

[giovanni_hotel]

Just more Liberal nonsense.

Lia Thomas is probably a nice person, but has no business competing with female athletes.

Just look at the picture if you think there is any fairness in letting her compete. No wonder she won.

Look at her mass and bone structure compared with the other athletes.

https://images.lbc.co.uk/images/294587?crop=16_9&width=660&relax=1&signature=Dzyu36jnRyB6CAyNkh-Nz7UPmRQ=

This pic looks photoshopped, but the point is the same. Most trans female athletes have significant physical advantages over natal women.

[mildcigar_2001]

This isn't about being anti-Trans this is about fairness to female athletes.

We all have to make choices in life, and you don't get to have everything you want all of the time. Perhaps some increased responsibilities and some self-sacrifice also goes along with changing genders.

Transsexual athletes need to understand that perhaps they can't transition, and also play competitive sports with/against their new gender.

If transsexual athletes feel the need to compete they need to do so against athletes of their former gender. This may not be "fair" to transsexuals, but it is fair to a substantially greater number of people.

[iHeart_PONG]

Genetically male athletes outperform genetically female athletes in many sports and nearly always, when considering the same sport, are simply more powerful. As such, though I support universal acceptance of any and all transgender people, I do not support universal acceptance of every trans athletes competing against cis-gender counterparts. So long as we continue to separate sports based on sex and gender, the case for each athlete in that particular sport needs to be made as to why that person does not have an unfair advantage conferred by their birth sex.

If it were open season, russell might as well change his name to Melinda and sign with the Sparks when the Lakers run him out of town. He already has the clothes.
1370362

[Stavros]

As the posts above show, confusion reigns.

1. Fairness vs Cheating
Fairness in sport is fundamental to its performance, which is why the governing bodies have had to introduce laws and penalties that deal with performance enhancing chemicals that can be used to replace fairness with cheating. For years it is not just testing that has become a routine part of competitive sport, but the development of and monitoring of new drugs that can give one sportsperson an advantage over others.

But are Transgendered athletes Cheating when they compete?

2. Hormones
With the M2F transgendered sportsperson, is it the case that part of the transition involves the male losing so much of their former attributes that their new Female body can no longer perform at the same level? Or is the argument that, even with hormone development, a M2F athlete will always have advantages over a female? Is it a case of how long the transition has been taking place, so, for example, Lia Thomas may win races today, but her ability to do so will decline as the levels of oestrogen in her body overwhelm the testosterone?

3. Rights in Law, Rights in Sport.
And, again on the Politics -if Transgendered people have equal rights under the law, and I believe in Liberal Democracies such as in Europe and North America, they do, is it both legally and morally just for Sports authorities to discriminate against Transgendered athletes, because their 'gender status' has become a matter of their 'chemical status' which the law has not defined in terms sufficient to accept or to ban them from competition?

As has been shown already in some US States, being Transgendered appears to immediately transform a Citizen with equal rights under the Constitution to a Citizen with Rights as Modified by the State, and it is not helped when individual Sports are in a similar dilemma where their regulations are being tested by issues of Gender Status that were not part of the regulations when they were created, and which for all the reasons above are difficult to resolve, without an outright ban on participation by Transgendered individuals

Can legal rights as a Citizen, be removed by Sports Authorities?

I see no easy answers to any of these issues, hence the confusion. Not helped by the hypocrisy of the Sports Authorities that for example, banned numerous individual sprinters from Jamaica, but not the entire team -for reasons we all know and understand-, while the official Russian teams in several sports have been banned, yet individuals from the country allowed to compete in a re-packaged 'Russian' team which is in effect the same as the one that was banned!

[MrFanti]

Question for you guys to debate.
Should the number of sports scholarships be increased by colleges and universities to account for transgender athletes?

[SanDiegoPervySage]

Cant change biology. They need their own league honestly

[iHeart_PONG]

As the posts above show, confusion reigns.


I don't think you understand the modern interpretation of the word transgender. A person does not need to be on hormones or have any gender affirming alterations to be trans. If a 6'0" tall muscular 16 year old male high school wrestler started dressing like a girl and changed to her/she pronouns, that person would be considered transgender and it would be unfair for that person to compete against 16 year old girls.

The unfortunate aspect of this is that you can't be sure that governing bodies of each sports league would judge each situation fairly so it has to be a legal issue.

[Luke Warm]

Cant change biology. They need their own league honestly

It’s a relatively tiny number of athletes… for example, according to the governor, only 5 transgender athletes competing in scholastic sports in the entire state of Utah. This issue is being driven by conservatives who believe they win on election day if they amplify ‘culture war’ issues like marriage equality, gay Teletubbies, Dr Seuss being canceled, etc. Even if these issues are bogus, or meaningless to 99% of the population. It’s about amplifying peoples’ fears, in order to gain or hold power.

[Luke Warm]

As the posts above show, confusion reigns.


Your florid prose does not add any clarity.

”Gender” is “boys wear blue, girls wear pink”. There is virtually nothing biological about it, it’s just conditioning. It has nothing to do with genitalia, hormonal profiles, etc.

The documentary “Bigger Stronger Faster” is good, if you are interested in how athletes (and others!) use performance enhancing drugs for a competitive advantage. Their use is widespread. (No transgender content in the documentary but it raises interesting points nonetheless)

[MrFanti]

It’s a relatively tiny number of athletes…
Be careful at how you spin this because the number of transgender individuals in reference to entire populations is quite small as well.
For reference, here's a number for you - We Black Americans are only roughly 13.5% of the US population.

[fred41]

Be careful at how you spin this because the number of transgender individuals in reference to entire populations is quite small as well.
For reference, here's a number for you - We Black Americans are only roughly 13.5% of the US population.

Then you also have to subtract the FtM transgender athletes, because they don’t have the same affect as MtF athletes do….but it doesn’t matter the size of the grouping because all it takes is a few. In some sports the difference might be negligible, but in swimming height and wingspan clearly make a difference. Obviously, there would be very little difference, I would think, if the FTM transgender student went on hormone therapy before or during puberty, but that is not the norm…as far as certain women’s sports go, perhaps that should be a requirement. Even one person can make a difference, because it would deny someone else a placing in future sports and a possible scholarship.If I was a woman or had daughters in college I might feel stronger about that…but considering this site has almost no Cisgender women on it, I doubt you’ll get a good debate on this topic…especially since a huge section of opining members are single males who will probably remain single (and perhaps, childless), at least in the conventional sense, for most of their lives.

[dc_guy_75]

Like anyone gives two shits about women's athletics.

[Stavros]

I don't think you understand the modern interpretation of the word transgender. A person does not need to be on hormones or have any gender affirming alterations to be trans. If a 6'0" tall muscular 16 year old male high school wrestler started dressing like a girl and changed to her/she pronouns, that person would be considered transgender and it would be unfair for that person to compete against 16 year old girls.


But I do understand, I just don't agree with it, as your post indicates. For if a 6 foot tall wrestler called Joe wants to be known as Joanne and wants to wrestle girls who are five foot tall, then the question is whether or not in law, the rights of a citizen takes precedence over the rights as defined by the Sporting body that regulates wrestling. If they have a non-discrimination policy, they are in a bind.

The issue is again, Language and Science -based on the arguments I have seen here, a person can self-identify as a Martian and there is nothing that can be done about it, other than ridicule the person, which in itself invites the kind of discrimination public debate is trying to get rid of. And if the person genuinely believes they are Martian, maybe therapy can help.

But consider that in the UK Census in I think 2000, more than 100,000 people identified their religion as 'Jedi'. That to me is comical, at least, and not important, but when the issue becomes one of Men and Women and the spaces we occupy, and don't occupy, and all the other issues on debate here, I think we reach a point where either Language has meaning because, collectively we agree on what those meanings are, or we are losing the most important component of humanity that binds us all together.

I can understand the pathetic need of Republicans and alt-right lunatics to drag in issues they don't approve of an insist it is part of some 'existential conflict' for the soul of America/Western Civilization or whatever their hammer is draped in, but there are real issues here, and I find a lot of the language used is, well, confusing.

[MrFanti]

Interesting read from a scientific study:
Trans women retain athletic edge after a year of hormone therapy, study finds
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764