Coronavirus

[alan327]

Wonder how many providers & clients will hold off having fun until we get some definite answers in the spread of Coronavirus?
i was all ready to see a gal in Chicago but am backing off.

[Yepyepp]

I'm in Spain at the moment... I'd have to tell the police dotted along the road I was on the way to see 'Carmen Pollaita' looool

Now's a good time for surfing your memories and tube sites

[Fitzcarraldo]

I'm in Spain at the moment...

Good luck!

[drongo]

Seems to be a Designer virus infecting this Forum...

[Cereal Escapist]

don't fuck around now. better to be safe than sorry.

[ls1290]

Stupid news/media does not report that the common flu virus so far as been more dangerous. The only thing they seem to report is information that causes more panic and stupidity.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Stupid news/media does not report that the common flu virus so far as been more dangerous. The only thing they seem to report is information that causes more panic and stupidity.

Track it here without media interference:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

This coronavirus is new, so the danger is unknown, but over 7,000 have died so far. And there's no vaccine for it.

[rabbitfufu]

I have the cockavirus it has invaded my laptop ad now it keeps popping up pixs of girls with dicks. Stay safe everybody!!:cheers:

[holzz]

it's a shame but then public health trumps topping and bottoming or sucking cock.
sex workers i guess are at the brunt.

[Fitzcarraldo]

I'm curious about how it is affecting HA members outside the US and UK. Hey Nikka, how is it where you are?

[TheGreatestLiar]

not only no vaccine, but no proven effective meds, unlike flu, which can be mitigated with Tamiflu

[Superrage]

Track it here without media interference:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

This coronavirus is new, so the danger is unknown, but over 7,000 have died so far. And there's no vaccine for it.

I wonder how much of this is correct. I know a few cases that "died because of coronavirus" and you read the article and they had stage 4 cancer. It's like saying the guy died of a heart attack, but ignoring the car that hit him.

[filghy2]

I wonder how much of this is correct. I know a few cases that "died because of coronavirus" and you read the article and they had stage 4 cancer. It's like saying the guy died of a heart attack, but ignoring the car that hit him.

I think you are missing the point. It's people with serious pre-existing conditions that are most at risk of dying from the corona-virus. Even if they were at risk of dying anyway, catching the virus would bring it on earlier. Your analogy is around the wrong way - the virus is the car that hits them.

[filghy2]

Stupid news/media does not report that the common flu virus so far as been more dangerous. The only thing they seem to report is information that causes more panic and stupidity.

It's important to distinguish between two different issues:
1. What's the risk to a normal person who is not elderly and doesn't have an existing condition that could make them vulnerable?
2. What's the risk that the health system will be overwhelmed by an upsurge in serious cases, resulting in more deaths because people can't get treatment?

Maybe the risk to normal people is not so great, but it's mainly the second issue that is motivating the restrictions. They are trying to slow the spread of the virus (flatten the curve) so that the health system is better able to cope. Even though lots of people die from normal flu it's not such an issue because there isn't a sudden massive surge in cases, so the health system can cope.

[Fitzcarraldo]

I wonder how much of this is correct. I know a few cases that "died because of coronavirus" and you read the article and they had stage 4 cancer. It's like saying the guy died of a heart attack, but ignoring the car that hit him.

I consider Johns Hopkins University as credible a source as you can get. Do you know a more credible one?

[AlexisDVyne]

Personally I think it's quite serious.. :geek:

Health wise, my lungs are atypical and this could be very bad if I get it. I'm vaccinated against most types of pneumonia but this is a viral one with no vaccine as of yet..

Most things fail to kill me tho and make me suffer horribly for days or weeks instead.. It's been many years since I had a lung infection tho..

Financially this is going to be a DISASTER! :shock:

Let the billionaires bail out their own shit tho! Don't use tax dollars for that!

[Beaver1]

Hopefully, you'll be fine, Alexis.

[filghy2]

Hopefully she will, but it depends a lot on other people doing the right thing and following the medical advice about hygiene, social distancing, self-isolation etc. The more people don't do that because it's inconvenient and they think the risks are exaggerated, the more people like Alexis will be put at risk.

[holzz]

i like how people are saying this shit is overblown. it's not. OK, stockpiling loo roll is funny. but then even if most people have minor symptoms, then it means many people off work. schools, shops, etc. shutting down.
it's an unpopular opinion but I support the shutdowns.
people aren't taking this shit really seriously. Like I see people sneezing out loud in public - DUDE. don't people think? even if they smelt some ground pepper or have an allergy, i don't give a shit. it's a bitch that there are no sports. And i was really hoping to go to a sex club in London and Paris but thishas to be put on hold. but there the greater good has to trump all this shit.

[holzz]

From what I see, the EU is banning travel.

Just a question to any girls here - has business gone down? Most big cities in Europe are being locked down. I know London has been a ghost town lately. Hard times i know, but we'll all pull through.

[AlexisDVyne]

From what I see, the EU is banning travel.

Just a question to any girls here - has business gone down? Most big cities in Europe are being locked down. I know London has been a ghost town lately. Hard times i know, but we'll all pull through.

Definitely.. 50% and climbing.. once they lock everything down there will be little to nothing at all..

I do cam sessions, phone sessions, custom videos.. But if EVERYONE is locked down that'll be meager too I'm sure..

In Canada I estimate 1 week to lock down.. 2 at the most..

A little part of me wants to entertain the theory that this was intentional to let authoritarian & nationalist regimes enact martial law.. :geek:

[MrBest]

Personally I think it's quite serious.. :geek:

Health wise, my lungs are atypical and this could be very bad if I get it. I'm vaccinated against most types of pneumonia but this is a viral one with no vaccine as of yet..

Most things fail to kill me tho and make me suffer horribly for days or weeks instead.. It's been many years since I had a lung infection tho..

Financially this is going to be a DISASTER! :shock:

Let the billionaires bail out their own shit tho! Don't use tax dollars for that!

'the coronavirus is just the pin, the debt bubble is the problem'

[MrBest]

onlyfans to the rescue

[AlexisDVyne]

onlyfans to the rescue

Unfortunately this isn't going to work very good..

I don't use it but the people I know that do have seen a decrease not an increase from this..

There's also thousands of people piling in at the same time all trying to get subscribers..

The only one making good money is onlyfans.. :geek:

[Ripjags]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz1vg - Information on the virus and what is being done to combat it from the BBC


https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/ - detailed dashboard to follow all the fun.

[Cereal Escapist]

'the coronavirus is just the pin, the debt bubble is the problem'

when this is over, if the us does not make better decisions, this is the end of the pax americana and china will officially run this world.

[filghy2]

I don't use it but the people I know that do have seen a decrease not an increase from this..

People probably don't want to spend money on non-essentials when they are uncertain about what the future will bring. There will be more people at home with time on their hands, but they won't necessarily have money to spend.

[denzel deblu]

Some helpful information from reliable and qualified sources:

SARS-CoV-2 / CoVID-19

SARS – Severe acute respiratory syndrome
MERS – Middle eastern respiratory syndrome
nCoV – Novel Coronavirus
SARS-CoV – the virus that caused SARS
SARS-CoV-2 – The virus that is causing the current outbreak
CoVID-19 – Clinical syndrome caused by this coronavirus

Coronavirus:

Is a group of viruses that have a halo/crown-like appearance when viewed with microscope.

CoVID19:

is a new disease and we are still learning how it spreads, the severity of illness it causes, and to what extent it may spread. What is below includes what we know so far.

Clinical manifestations of CoVID19:

• CoVID-19 onsets around 1 week (average of 5 days) after infection. Longer than 14 days onset is very rare. Research (March 2020) shows that the median incubation period was estimated to be 5.1 days (95%), and 97.5% of those who develop symptoms will do so within 11.5 days of infection. à Based on this data, suggested quarantine window of 14 seems adequate for CoVID19. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32150748

• Flu is characterized by abrupt onset of fever, when CoVID 19 evolves more gradually

• Lower respiratory illness (pneumonia) is more common with elderly, and those with chronic medical conditions (e.g. hypertension, diabetes).

• At this point, CoVID 19 in children is less severe. No deaths observed in children under 10 in China from CoVID 19 (this also may be due because we provide more medical attention to children with fever).

• Fever and cough are the most common symptoms (80% of cases), and some develop shortness of breath (30%)

• Current mortality estimates for CoVID19 are between 0.5% - 3%. This is confounded because of lack of serology and not being able to test everybody. It is assumed that the number of people infected is greater than what is reported, hence the estimations could be lower, but probably higher than the flue.

• CoVID19 appears to have peak infectivity during symptomatic period, but transmission from asymptomatic people have been documented.

• Research from Chinese Experience https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762130

Out of 72,000 patients (100%):
- 81% were mild cases of CoVID19
- 14% severe
- 5% critical
o mortality rates increasing with age (>70 – 90 years of age)
o No deaths occurred in the group aged 9 years and younger.

Treatment:

• There is not proven CoVID19 treatment at this point. Treatment is relying on supportive care (= Monitoring and maintaining oxygenation/gas exchange and providing assisted ventilation where necessary, treating co-infections etc.)

• However, many drugs (used for other infections and medical conditions) are currently being studied in a vast number of clinical trials and are showing good results.

• CoVID19 Vaccines have been already submitted for clinical trials

• Immunity (some anecdotal and some questionable cases of re-infections at this point). At this point, it is likely that people develop immunity to this particular “brand” of SARS-CoV-2, until the virus mutates. This is the case of the flue as well, and it explains why people need to get annual vaccine shots from the flue: as the flue virus mutates, the vaccines adapts.

Prevention:

• Most upper respiratory pathogens are primary transmitted through droplets that can settle within 2 meters between people (generated by coughing, sneezing, talking, singing…etc.):Person to person spread. SARS-CoV-2 is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.

• It is possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes, but this is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/transmission.html

• To protect yourself from infection in the community, hand hygiene is the most important measure:

o Soap (any kind) and water works the best – 20 seconds hand wash
o If you don´t have water/soap, alcohol gels are good as well
o Decontamination of surfaces (cleaning) of highly touched surfaces (door knobs, light switches…etc.).

• Routine use of medical mask to protect yourself is generally unnecessary (medical masks are designed to prevent transmission from a surgeon to an open wound/or to an immunodeficient person etc., not to protect the mask wearer from droplet pathogens).

• When sick, wearing a medical mask can be effective to prevent transmission to others (e.g. if living in a household in quarantine with a confirmed case).

• Avoid crowds, prolonged contact with sick in enclosed spaces, unnecessary travels/movements

• Do not go to clinics and hospitals, to protect those who are the most vulnerable.

• Sleep well (lack of sleep increases your vulnerability to infections)

• Don´t smoke

• Avoid Alcohol

Policies:

• Flattening the curve refers to using protective practices to slow the rate of CoVID-19 infection so hospitals have room, supplies and doctors for all of the patients who need care. By doing so, it assures good medical assistance to vulnerable population from CoVID19 but also ensures that those who really need medical support can access it (from many other medical conditions: cancer, HIV, surgeries, chronic diseases…etc.).

• “Social distancing” is currently the most important factor we can control in the CoVID-19 outbreak.


Some reliable sources of information:

• Global situation: Gives a highlight of the current trends
Situation reports from WHO (updated daily)
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/situation-reports

• How to protect yourself / symptoms /general questions:
CDC (Centre for Disease Control and Prevention) – CoVID19 – How to protect yourself / If you think you are sick
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html

• CoVID19 – Protect yourself
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019

[collector171]

If this research comes to fruition we will all be better off https://www.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENCE/Israeli-scientists-In-three-weeks-we-will-have-coronavirus-vaccine-619101

[filghy2]

'the coronavirus is just the pin, the debt bubble is the problem'

Unfortunately, you might be right. Credit markets have started to seize up, which is what triggered the financial crisis in 2008. Market interest rates are rising when they should be falling because the economy is weakening. This may be another boom that turns out to be built on quicksand.

[Lorca81]

Stupid news/media does not report that the common flu virus so far as been more dangerous. The only thing they seem to report is information that causes more panic and stupidity.


Track it here without media interference:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

This coronavirus is new, so the danger is unknown, but over 7,000 have died so far. And there's no vaccine for it.

According to John Hopkins University's tracker site, there is a 4.29% mortality rate (total deaths divided by total confirmed cases). Something like 1 out of 25 people is extraordinarily high --- and far more fatal than common influenza!

Of course, given the worldwide shortage of test kits, the number of infections it likely much higher. On the other hand, through, JHU's data necessarily relies countries accurately (i.e., not under) reporting the number of deaths. I am highly suspicious that the data from China and Iran under reports fatal cases. Also, for example, JHU's data does not even include North Korea, where South Korean and western defense analysts have seen clear signs of a massively deadly COVID-19 outbreak.

All of which is to say, i simply shocked by how many messages I'm getting on Grindr right now looking for hookups. I think it is absolutely insane that people are still hooking up with randoms!

[Old Jimbo]

This coronavirus is deadly serious. Although those teens and twenties think they can get the virus in a bar or social event and suffer no ill effects, don't forget that when you go home you could easily pass it on to your parents without realising it and for them it could be very very serious. Please, please keep away from crowded places until advised it is safe. Could you live with the thought you had accidentally infected friends and family. Not far from where I live someone who didn't know they were infected went to church last weekend and infected 24 people. Like I say, this coronavirus is very very dangerous.

[AlexisDVyne]

Ya it's hitting the fan now!

2 million with no jobs in Canada & 20 million in the USA & climbing!

There's no way the governments are going to implement their programs in time to get people money for April's rent or even May's rent I'd say..

Especially when people at that level start getting sick too.. It's going to be a shit show of epic diarrhea proportions!

Here we don't have enough tests, they are not testing everyone with symptoms and they are not tracing contacts..

The USA & Canada are both heading for Italy type conditions!

The government will NEVER tell us that the supply chains are going to fail.. or that the banks will close.. :geek:

[filghy2]

According to John Hopkins University's tracker site, there is a 4.29% mortality rate (total deaths divided by total confirmed cases). Something like 1 out of 25 people is extraordinarily high --- and far more fatal than common influenza!

The death rate for common influenza is about 0.1%, so even on the lower range estimates of a 1% mortality rate COVID-19 is 10 times more deadly. It's also almost twice as contagious as common flu - it's estimated that infected person infects 2-2.5 people compared to 1.3 for regular flu. https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-03-20/how-coronavirus-covid-19-compares-to-flu/12073696

[Del06]

:iagree:

[fred41]

The death rate for common influenza is about 0.1%, so even on the lower range estimates of a 1% mortality rate COVID-19 is 10 times more deadly. It's also almost twice as contagious as common flu - it's estimated that infected person infects 2-2.5 people compared to 1.3 for regular flu. https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-03-20/how-coronavirus-covid-19-compares-to-flu/12073696
Yeah, pretty much that average seems to be the most accurate when you exclude the global average and just look up your local average according to the JH website. It’s also what Dr. Anthony Fauci hinted it could be after ‘all’ the numbers were in. We all do what we have to do and play it day by day.

[fred41]

Ya it's hitting the fan now!

2 million with no jobs in Canada & 20 million in the USA & climbing!

There's no way the governments are going to implement their programs in time to get people money for April's rent or even May's rent I'd say..

Especially when people at that level start getting sick too.. It's going to be a shit show of epic diarrhea proportions!

Here we don't have enough tests, they are not testing everyone with symptoms and they are not tracing contacts..

The USA & Canada are both heading for Italy type conditions!

The government will NEVER tell us that the supply chains are going to fail.. or that the banks will close.. :geek:

The demographics between our countries and Italy are not the same, so I don’t know what you base that on.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Why social distancing is a good thing:
https://thespinoff.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Covid-19-Transmission-graphic-01.gif

[Beaver1]

Ya it's hitting the fan now!

2 million with no jobs in Canada & 20 million in the USA & climbing!

There's no way the governments are going to implement their programs in time to get people money for April's rent or even May's rent I'd say..

Especially when people at that level start getting sick too.. It's going to be a shit show of epic diarrhea proportions!

Here we don't have enough tests, they are not testing everyone with symptoms and they are not tracing contacts..

The USA & Canada are both heading for Italy type conditions!

The government will NEVER tell us that the supply chains are going to fail.. or that the banks will close.. :geek:

Hopefully you'll be alright, Alexis. Please be safe and stay safe.

[filghy2]

The government will NEVER tell us that the supply chains are going to fail.. or that the banks will close.. :geek:

That's unlikely to happen because every government knows it will be toast if it allows essential services to break down. Even an idiot like Trump finally worked out that it would be in his own interest to take this seriously.

Maintaining the supply of essentials should be feasible, as governments have emergency powers they can use to ensure this. We are going to have an excess of able-bodied people sitting at home, not a shortage. The shortages we've seen recently are due to a surge in panic buying - supply chains just take a while to catch up.

Keeping banks open is straightforward, because the central bank can supply them with unlimited amounts of money. Lehman Brothers only failed in 2008 because they chose to let it fail, and it was not a deposit-taking bank anyway.

[Laphroaig]

According to John Hopkins University's tracker site, there is a 4.29% mortality rate (total deaths divided by total confirmed cases). Something like 1 out of 25 people is extraordinarily high --- and far more fatal than common influenza!

Of course, given the worldwide shortage of test kits, the number of infections it likely much higher. On the other hand, through, JHU's data necessarily relies countries accurately (i.e., not under) reporting the number of deaths. I am highly suspicious that the data from China and Iran under reports fatal cases. Also, for example, JHU's data does not even include North Korea, where South Korean and western defense analysts have seen clear signs of a massively deadly COVID-19 outbreak.

All of which is to say, i simply shocked by how many messages I'm getting on Grindr right now looking for hookups. I think it is absolutely insane that people are still hooking up with randoms!
The problem with those mortality figures is, as you state, there's nowhere near enough testing being done yet. In the UK, those with symptoms or who think they have symptoms, are being asked to stay at home and basically only phone for an ambulance if they are at the point where they can't breathe. Testing is only being carried out in hospitals. There are estimates going round that as many as 50-75% of people infected may be asymptomatic, so the only way we're going to get reasonably accurate mortality rates is if, once this is over, large numbers are tested to see if they have had the virus.

[filghy2]

On another note, I'm quite surprised there has been so little discussion on this topic here, given it's about the only thing people are talking about elsewhere. I'm a member of an escort review site in Australia, and their thread on this topic already runs to 113 pages.

Even if people are interested only in porn it should have occurred to them that their favourite pastime is likely to be affected - sex between strangers is not exactly compatible with social distancing. Wouldn't the lock-downs in place in California and other US states be affecting porn production?

[Stavros]

On another note, I'm quite surprised there has been so little discussion on this topic here, given it's about the only thing people are talking about elsewhere. I'm a member of an escort review site in Australia, and their thread on this topic already runs to 113 pages.


Covid 19 touches on so many issues.
On one level, there is the morphology of an epidemic that becomes a pandemic, where and how it begins, how it moves out of its original core to different places. There is the morphlogy of the virus itself, how it works, how, if at all, it can be controlled and eve eradicated, the risks of mutation, of, over time, of drug resistance.

At the level of social policy, an epidemic and pandemic begs questions of health care provision, both its geographical extent and the quality of provision as it varies from one place to another. Even though overwhelmed with cases, the public health services of Italy, France, Spain, Germany and the UK appear to be better equipped to deal with the virus than the US, though a full account of the quality of care cannot be made right now.

The politics touches on competence, but also the risk-averse nature of some goverments which have initially tried to either dismiss the viral threat or just hope it goes away. Leading to extreme measures which in the UK and the US have led to public expenditure levels that would have been considered insane a year or two ago. Again, while so far governments and politicians have been exposed by the pandemic, we don't yet know how the public will judge them when the crisis is over.

The positive spin on this is that science has known for years that a viral infection of this kind is and has been a latent threat (see the video by Bill Gates linked below). We don't yet know if the death toll will reach as high as the Influenza Pandemic that began in 1918 and if I doubt that it will, it is because we have learned so much about disease since 1918. Politicians be wary, an effective vaccine may no be about to solve the problem. We have been here before with HIV, so caution is needed, and the patience that science is based upon.

Lastly, human behaviour must be inspected. The pristine forests of sub-Saharan Africa, of Indonesia and Siberia, of the Amazon Basin are full of pathegens we know nothing about. There are animals and insects that have never come into contact with humans. Our plunder of these remote areas in pursuit of gold, timber or anything else that can be sold for profit is releasing into the environment pathogens that should say where they are. And in some of those areas of Africa and Asia, there is a cultural gap between what we eat in the 'West' and what 'they' eat on the edges of rain forest -from primates to vermin. If ever there was a risk in the communication of disease and meat consumption, here is where the edge of risk is breached. It is not just a market in China that poses this risk, and if we are to prevent new diseases from entering the chain, this links must be broken. Not one person in this world needs to eat a chimp or a rat, there are alternatives.

Disease and the environment -warning re photos of 'meat' for sale in Africa-
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/mar/18/tip-of-the-iceberg-is-our-destruction-of-nature-responsible-for-covid-19-aoe

Bill Gates in 2015
https://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates_the_next_outbreak_we_re_not_ready?langu age=en

[filghy2]

The politics touches on competence, but also the risk-averse nature of some goverments which have initially tried to either dismiss the viral threat or just hope it goes away. Leading to extreme measures which in the UK and the US have led to public expenditure levels that would have been considered insane a year or two ago. Again, while so far governments and politicians have been exposed by the pandemic, we don't yet know how the public will judge them when the crisis is over.

One thing that has been shown yet again is that governments seem unable to take strong action until a crisis is already under way. Most countries have waited until infections took off before imposing severe restrictions, even though there was plenty of warning from what happened in Asia and then Italy. There seems to be a deeply ingrained tendency to hope for the best, to assume it can't happen here because we're different and to believe stories that downplay the threat.

The same thing happened in the global financial crisis, when all of the warning signs were ignored because too many people wanted to believe that the good times would continue indefinitely, or didn't want to admit they'd erred in allowing the financial sector to get out of control.

Some people are saying this will be a wake up call that changes the way we do things, but I'm not so sure given the past history (including since the financial crisis). Some things will be done, but once the crisis passes we will lapse back into old habits and make excuses that it's too costly to change, it's unlikely to happen again, it was all China's fault anyway, and so on.

[Nikka]

Colombia avianca airlines didn´t allow me to change my ticket and I had to buy a new one
fucking narcos one more reason to hate

[Fitzcarraldo]

Colombia avianca airlines didn´t allow me to change my ticket and I had to buy a new one
fucking narcos one more reason to hate

Are you in Colombia or back home?

[bryanferryfan2]

Eating vermin, in my opinion has to be curbed worldwide by implementing farming techniques that don't encroach on those ecosystems. Maybe we should also curb birth rates to minimize the effects of food deserts . Less people the more we can keep threats like this from getting a foothold globally.

[blackchubby38]

On another note, I'm quite surprised there has been so little discussion on this topic here, given it's about the only thing people are talking about elsewhere. I'm a member of an escort review site in Australia, and their thread on this topic already runs to 113 pages.

Even if people are interested only in porn it should have occurred to them that their favourite pastime is likely to be affected - sex between strangers is not exactly compatible with social distancing. Wouldn't the lock-downs in place in California and other US states be affecting porn production?

The lock-downs in the California and other US states have affected porn production. Almost of all the sites that I have memberships to have said they have ceased production and when it comes to the content they have already shot, they changed their release schedule.

There could be a couple of reasons why there isn't much discussion on the topic here.

1. People are talking about it on other message boards and social media.

2. Because it is the only thing people are talking about elsewhere, they're looking for an escape and they don't want to have deal it for a few moments in the day. Everybody's life has pretty much come to halt within a span of 2-3 weeks and there seems to be no definite answer as to when things will get back to normal.

Sporting events have been canceled and movie releases postponed. A majority of people can't go to work and they're being told to stay home. There also seems to be this overreaction to people going out for a walk and getting a breath of fresh air. So yeah I'm not going to blame someone if all they want to do is come here and look at and talk about porn.

[filghy2]

A little part of me wants to entertain the theory that this was intentional to let authoritarian & nationalist regimes enact martial law.. :geek:

I doubt it was intentional, but you are right to be concerned that this crisis will be misused. DoJ has asked Congress for powers to detain people indefinitely without trial, although it looks like the request will be refused. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/22/21189937/coronavirus-department-justice-doj-powers

[holzz]

I get the lockdowns and rationale behind them.
I can see where the conspiracy theorists are coming from though.

[NormallyNorm]

The problem with those mortality figures is, as you state, there's nowhere near enough testing being done yet. In the UK, those with symptoms or who think they have symptoms, are being asked to stay at home and basically only phone for an ambulance if they are at the point where they can't breathe. Testing is only being carried out in hospitals. There are estimates going round that as many as 50-75% of people infected may be asymptomatic, so the only way we're going to get reasonably accurate mortality rates is if, once this is over, large numbers are tested to see if they have had the virus.

FWIW, the Diamond Princess Cruise ship works as a great case study because it's one place where we know there was 100% exposure to the virus, and apparently 27% of the passengers proved to be completely asymptomatic, which is quite high, but obviously not nearly as high as 50-75%

[Superrage]

Yea it's been interesting, but I'm done with it now. Everywhere is acting like the sky is falling, but all the businesses have drive through...??? It's weird. Even gamestop has a to order service where they bring it to your car now.

[blackchubby38]

Yea it's been interesting, but I'm done with it now. Everywhere is acting like the sky is falling, but all the businesses have drive through...??? It's weird. Even gamestop has a to order service where they bring it to your car now.

Apparently someone ratted out Gamestop and they too had to close.

[Nikka]

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

[Laphroaig]

What a pity BostonBad has disappeared...

Tracey Kiss, 32, reckons ingesting her boyfriend's sperm everyday - either "directly", or as part of a smoothie will see her through the pandemic.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11199486/woman-claims-semen-beat-coronavirus-doctors-dont-work/

[Laphroaig]

FWIW, the Diamond Princess Cruise ship works as a great case study because it's one place where we know there was 100% exposure to the virus, and apparently 27% of the passengers proved to be completely asymptomatic, which is quite high, but obviously not nearly as high as 50-75%

Interesting, thanks. Any link to where that figure came from?

[holzz]

UK under lockdown.
The upside is surely onlfans and manyvids will go through the roof.
there's a girl who is even offering free vids for NHS workers - Sandy Paige.

[Jericho]

On the upside, she won't starve!



Tracey Kiss, 32, reckons ingesting her boyfriend's sperm everyday - either "directly", or as part of a smoothie will see her through the pandemic.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11199486/woman-claims-semen-beat-coronavirus-doctors-dont-work/

[dickten]

Pretty weird thing here, my friend who is in the adult friendship biz told me two weeks ago that her biz was suffering pretty bad, down 50%, with regulars postponing the most visits. She started using Grindr and her business is back with mostly 20 and 30 year old guys... younger population maybe feels immune to this the reason? She asks them to wash hands, but thats about all she can do to minimize risk. She is thinking of getting on with the huge amazon hire here as companies will be upping wages to keep at risk workers and she says she can get unemployment after the eventual layoffs and go back to school. Might be a silver lining eventually.

[filghy2]

FWIW, the Diamond Princess Cruise ship works as a great case study because it's one place where we know there was 100% exposure to the virus, and apparently 27% of the passengers proved to be completely asymptomatic, which is quite high, but obviously not nearly as high as 50-75%

Older people are over-represented on cruises though, so that figure might not be accurate for the general population.

[Nikka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZVl2pKXaEY

[Stavros]

On the one hand the scale of the Covid 19 pandemic has taken governments by surprise, that it shifted from being a localized epidemic to a pandemic so quickly, and the ease of transmission of the virus which makes it significantly more dangerous than, say, the 'flu.

On the other hand, it is clear that actions taken by, for example, South Korea at an early stage (the first case was recorded in Wuhan on the 31st December 2019), have reduced the impact of Covid 19 so far, and that testing was crucial to the manner in which the disease is still being managed.

But in the UK and the US, there are no excuses, because in both countries, the prospect of a viral infection leading to deaths and enormous pressures on health care providers has been factored in to Government policy, or has been anticipated but practical contingency plans ignored.

In the UK Exercise Cygnus in 2016 enacted a viral infection across the UK, with every Government department taking part. The Report into its findings has not been published, while the lack of unpreparedness is at the heart of the decisions made in the UK, with money at its core, thus

the revelation the government and the NHS leadership knew of the gaps in Britain’s surge capacity ahead of the current outbreak will not go ignored. It was the lack of “surge capacity” within the NHS, combined with fresh data from Italy, that the modellers at Imperial cited only last week as the reason for Britain having to pivot from a strategy of mitigation to total lockdown six days ago.
In their defence, insiders say that while the Cygnus findings have not been published they were acted on in part at least. Projected shortages of PPE and ICU beds were not filled with bulk purchase because of cash constraints and worries they would become outdated or obsolete if left in storage. Instead work was done on securing reliable supply chains - something they say we will see evidence of this coming week in terms of PPE.
“Throwing money at the problem was not necessarily the solution. The NHS eats up money. It’s a bottomless pit,” said a senior former government source. “We were in a time of austerity and it wasn’t easy.” (My emphasis in bold)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/exercise-cygnus-uncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/

But Covid 19 now costs Billions, and there are shortages of equipment, and a lack of testing for the population.

In the US the Obama administration, widely admired for its leading role in the Ebola outbreak in Africa, set up a unit dedicated to combating pandemics. Established in the NSA, it was shut down when John Bolton was National Security Adviser. In addition to the current Government's war on Science, leading to the dismissal of the very people needed when a pandemic erupts across the country, the Obama Admnistration left its successor a comprehensive report on pandemics that was 'thrown onto a shelf'-

The administration got rid of most of the staff (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/24/trump-cuts-undermine-coronavirus-containment-cdc-watchdog-report) who worked on identifying global health problems in China, while repeatedly attempting to slash funding for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. A comprehensive document on battling pandemics, drawn up under the Obama administration, was “thrown on to a shelf” by its successor. Only last October, an internal federal government report warned that the US was woefully underprepared and underfunded to tackle a virus without a cure.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/03/the-guardian-view-on-trump-and-coronavirus-endangering-american-lives

Fail to prepare, means being prepared to fail. Even with the unique nature of Covid 19, we could have done better, and still the majority of people in the UK and the US have not been tested, and now we have infantile 'advice' on masks and scarves, with the man in charge making a mockery of the advice he has been given.

Stay safe, stay healthy, isolate yourself as much as you can, above all, Survive.

[filghy2]

Harry S Truman (1945): "The buck stops here"
Donald J Trump (2020): "I don't take responsibility at all"

[Rover177]

Just think of the number of class action lawsuits if Trump repeated Truman's comments. Cuomo was ranting at Trump for ventilators - his own warehouse had 3,000 of them. Lefties are always good at blaming others.

[Nikka]

AVianca airline offered a Bonus for 6 more month, I cannot believe it but lets just wait

[Fitzcarraldo]

Just think of the number of class action lawsuits if Trump repeated Truman's comments. Cuomo was ranting at Trump for ventilators - his own warehouse had 3,000 of them. Lefties are always good at blaming others.

Then I guess Trump is a Leftie. He is the king of blaming others for his own incompetence.

[filghy2]

Just think of the number of class action lawsuits if Trump repeated Truman's comments. Cuomo was ranting at Trump for ventilators - his own warehouse had 3,000 of them. Lefties are always good at blaming others.

What a stupid comment. Taking responsibility for dealing with a major crisis is the President's job, regardless of whether the state voted for him or said something that wounded his fragile ego. They have stockpile of ventilators because they need to prepare for the further worsening of virus cases that is still to come. At the rate the virus is progressing they could run through the stockpile in a few days.

[Laphroaig]

Just think of the number of class action lawsuits if Trump repeated Truman's comments. Cuomo was ranting at Trump for ventilators - his own warehouse had 3,000 of them. Lefties are always good at blaming others.

Can you honestly say that Trump is handling this crisis well?...:shrug

[broncofan]

Just think of the number of class action lawsuits if Trump repeated Truman's comments.
The President can't actually get sued based on the performance of his official duties. If he could, nothing would expose him to more liability than what he's already said, which is that governors need to flatter him to get life-saving equipment from the federal government.

As late as March, both Kushner and Trump were comparing Covid-19 to the Swine Flu Epidemic of 2009 and asking why the "liberal media" wasn't as hard on Obama back then. The problem is that the Swine Flu had a case fatality rate of about .03% while it was pretty clear by early February that Covid-19 was about 15-20 times as lethal as Influenza. Their failure to take it seriously caused complacency among the public, who thought they were dealing with a flu strain.

Pence also kept promising tests and failing to reach every benchmark he set, which allowed community spread much earlier than we'd have otherwise seen. We are in a race against time, to find treatments and for scientists to develop and test a vaccine. Allowing this disease to spread throughout the country because testing people may cause a dip in the stock market is next level stupid and depraved.

Trump could have invoked the Defense Production Act and had businesses produce ventilators in early February when it seemed pretty likely the disease wouldn't be contained. He could have forced companies to produce tests, which are badly needed and which the government failed to roll out. He could have produced ppe for front-line workers risking their lives, many of whom are getting sick and dying. The failures were obvious, preventable, and inexcusable.

Please stay safe everyone.

[filghy2]

This article outlines the failures in ordering medical supplies. https://www.vox.com/2020/4/5/21208802/coronavirus-trump-ventilators-masks-march Masks weren't ordered until 12 March, and the contract does not require delivery until the end of April. Companies were not ordered to produce ventilators until after March 27, and they won't be available until late June at the earliest.

On top of that, uncoordinated buying as a result of states being left to their own devices has pushed prices way up and (not surprisingly) some of the profiteers are Trump donors. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/04/donald-trump-coronavirus-power-grab

But I guess in Fox News world none of this is happening.

[Stavros]

When the word 'No' has no value, because a scientist with decades of experience can never know more about medicine than a jerk from Queens-

Donald Trump’s top coronavirus adviser has warned again that there is no scientific evidence to support the use of an unproven anti-malaria drug the president has been pushing as a possible remedy for Covid-19.In White House briefing (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/04/coronavirus-us-ventilators-new-york-trump-touts-unproven-cure-malaria-drug)s on Saturday and Sunday (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/pearl-harbor-us-surgeon-general-coronavirus-deaths-donald-trump-white-house-briefing), Trump urged Americans worried about the virus to try hydroxychloroquine, a drug used to treat malaria (https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/hydroxychloroquine.pdf), arthritis and lupus that has not been extensively tested for other conditions.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/coronavirus-fauci-trump-anti-malaria-drug

He even intervened to put a stop to anyone asking real questions about the use of hydroxychloroquine-
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1246956581717192705

Liars and hypocrites on Fox News can be left to stew in their own bile, the real worry is that the President is taking advice from his son-in-law-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/03/jared-kushner-coronavirus-pandemic

[african1]

Stupid news/media does not report that the common flu virus so far as been more dangerous. The only thing they seem to report is information that causes more panic and stupidity.

Do you still hold the same views? You sounded like fox news back then.

[african1]

Personally I think it's quite serious.. :geek:

Health wise, my lungs are atypical and this could be very bad if I get it. I'm vaccinated against most types of pneumonia but this is a viral one with no vaccine as of yet..

Most things fail to kill me tho and make me suffer horribly for days or weeks instead.. It's been many years since I had a lung infection tho..

Financially this is going to be a DISASTER! :shock:

Let the billionaires bail out their own shit tho! Don't use tax dollars for that!

I am impressed Alexis. Not only are you endowed my a big Cock, but quite a big brain as well. BRAVO!

[filghy2]

As late as March, both Kushner and Trump were comparing Covid-19 to the Swine Flu Epidemic of 2009 and asking why the "liberal media" wasn't as hard on Obama back then. The problem is that the Swine Flu had a case fatality rate of about .03% while it was pretty clear by early February that Covid-19 was about 15-20 times as lethal as Influenza. Their failure to take it seriously caused complacency among the public, who thought they were dealing with a flu strain.

I think people with no understanding of science and no interest in taking heed of experts also failed to grasp how exponential growth makes small initial numbers grow into big ones before too long. Covid-19 is about twice as contagious as regular flu (including swine flu). That means infections will grow explosively if the virus is left unchecked, which doesn't happen with regular flu.

We still have this problem in Australia, ironically because severe restrictions have been quite successful in containing the virus here. We have had only 40 deaths so far, which is one-twentieth of the US death toll per head of population. The rate of new cases has fallen to about one-third of its peak level, we were initially on a similar path to other countries. The usual types are now saying this shows that it was an over-reaction and we need to ease the restrictions - without understanding that it was these restrictions that prevented the high numbers the experts were warning about.

It's interesting to compare Australia and the USA because we are both federations, where the states have most of the front-line responsibility while the federal government has more resources and the capacity to play a coordinating role. Here we have a national cabinet making the decisions, comprising the Prime Minister and state leaders from both parties. There's a bit of argument on some things, but mostly it's working well with both parties generally on the same page.

We have a conservative Prime Minister who I haven't been a fan of before but he's done a pretty good job on this - listening to experts, making considered statements, being prepared to ditch previous policy positions, and not playing politics or indulging in petty egotism. That's what a real strong leader does, unlike the man acting out a cartoon version in the White House.

I'm so glad at the moment to be living in a normal country run by normal people. I fell very sorry for you Americans - maybe less so for the ones who still choose to ignore inconvenient truths.

[Fitzcarraldo]

When the word 'No' has no value, because a scientist with decades of experience can never know more about medicine than a jerk from Queens-

Donald Trump’s top coronavirus adviser has warned again that there is no scientific evidence to support the use of an unproven anti-malaria drug the president has been pushing as a possible remedy for Covid-19.In White House briefing (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/04/coronavirus-us-ventilators-new-york-trump-touts-unproven-cure-malaria-drug)s on Saturday and Sunday (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/pearl-harbor-us-surgeon-general-coronavirus-deaths-donald-trump-white-house-briefing), Trump urged Americans worried about the virus to try hydroxychloroquine, a drug used to treat malaria (https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/resources/pdf/fsp/drugs/hydroxychloroquine.pdf), arthritis and lupus that has not been extensively tested for other conditions.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/coronavirus-fauci-trump-anti-malaria-drug

He even intervened to put a stop to anyone asking real questions about the use of hydroxychloroquine-
https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1246956581717192705

Liars and hypocrites on Fox News can be left to stew in their own bile, the real worry is that the President is taking advice from his son-in-law-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/03/jared-kushner-coronavirus-pandemic

I'm hoping investigative journalists will follow the money on this. Surely Trump stands to profit somehow from sales of hydroxychloroquine.

[broncofan]

I'm hoping investigative journalists will follow the money on this. Surely Trump stands to profit somehow from sales of hydroxychloroquine.
In early February, I was curious how clinical trials were going to come out with Chloroquine and Remdesivir. I am also interested to see if a drug called Favipiravir has efficacy. There is a difference between wanting to see if anecdotal evidence of efficacy can be confirmed in trials and shamelessly hawking a drug with significant side effects as a "game-changer". Even if hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are effective, the combo is unlikely to be a game changer.

We'll have to wait to see what kind of results Johns Hopkins gets when they test convalescent plasma. For those that don't know this is the blood of people who have recovered, which is assumed to have antibodies against Covid-19, that can be transfused into patients. One problem with this strategy is that you're limited by the amount of blood you can collect. It's difficult to use at the top of the curve, where you have far more people currently infected than have recovered.

There are also companies trying to manufacture monoclonal antibodies, which in contrast to convalescent plasma is scalable, since they can be made synthetically. These won't be tested for a while, but they have the potential to be used before a vaccine is available. I'm as hopeful as the next person...

Filghy, I've been following the trajectory in Australia. You guys are doing extremely well and I'm envious. Every day I am rooting for Donald Trump and company to take useful steps and mostly I'm disappointed, outraged, and a bit scared to be honest.

[broncofan]

The usual types are now saying this shows that it was an over-reaction and we need to ease the restrictions - without understanding that it was these restrictions that prevented the high numbers the experts were warning about.

This seems to be happening everywhere unfortunately. Even here where our distancing measures have barely had a chance to start flattening the curve, we have people accuse others of having been alarmists once a model is revised to take into account the benefits of intervention. Distancing works, even where the virus has gotten out of control. It does severely harm the economy but the alternative is lots more death, a breakdown of the healthcare system and even greater harm to the economy.

[holzz]

the lizard men/illuminati started this because they want to give people a taste of authoritarian rule.

[Fitzcarraldo]

This seems to be happening everywhere unfortunately. Even here where our distancing measures have barely had a chance to start flattening the curve, we have people accuse others of having been alarmists once a model is revised to take into account the benefits of intervention. Distancing works, even where the virus has gotten out of control. It does severely harm the economy but the alternative is lots more death, a breakdown of the healthcare system and even greater harm to the economy.

And it seems like that should be obvious, but apparently it isn't. I can't fathom how anyone could have thought ignoring it and then trying to minimize its significance in public statements was a wining strategy.

[Stavros]

Heroes of the Pandumbic

Many have now seen this, for those who have not-

https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1246146713523453957

[bryanferryfan2]

Trump ain't shit

[Fitzcarraldo]

Boris Johnson moved to intensive care:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52192604

[Fitzcarraldo]

Now it makes sense:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/major-producer-of-hydroxychloroquine-once-paid-michael-cohen-hefty-sum-for-access-to-trump/ar-BB12eeHz

[fred41]

Now it makes sense:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/major-producer-of-hydroxychloroquine-once-paid-michael-cohen-hefty-sum-for-access-to-trump/ar-BB12eeHz
Doubt Novartis makes any real money on the drug. It’s cheap , been around forever and there’s no patent on it. Several companies make versions of it, and from what I understand, both they and companies like Bayer are donating large quantities of this. Maybe Trump likes it cause it’s cheap. Who knows with him. Maybe he’s getting advice from one of his personal friends. It does have some side effects, as all drugs do, but seems relatively safe under the guidance of a doctor...which is why it’s going to get tested and used for this around the world anyhow (just as it already was before he opened his mouth about it). I do wish he would shut his big yap at these press conferences and just let the experts and other members of the team do all the talking, or better yet, don’t show up at all or just introduce everyone and leave.
Unfortunately, he has a childish inability to do so.

[filghy2]

And it seems like that should be obvious, but apparently it isn't. I can't fathom how anyone could have thought ignoring it and then trying to minimize its significance in public statements was a wining strategy.

Even if he cares only about reelection the smarter strategy would have been to act early and decisively to get on top of it, then ease off gradually after a prudent period once cases fall to low levels. That would give you a good chance that things would be clearly improving by November. But that would be beyond Trump's skill set and psychological makeup. It's clear that he will be itching to open up the economy again as soon as there is a run of improving data.

[Nikka]

a new era , a new world, all my bullies DEAD or broke, Jesus do Exist and I support him ;)

[AlexisDVyne]

Even if he cares only about reelection the smarter strategy would have been to act early and decisively to get on top of it, then ease off gradually after a prudent period once cases fall to low levels. That would give you a good chance that things would be clearly improving by November. But that would be beyond Trump's skill set and psychological makeup. It's clear that he will be itching to open up the economy again as soon as there is a run of improving data.

Well y'all need to get covered in the blood of Jebus and y'all be saved! :praying:

Or is it doomed.. :nervous:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH6oZBLe5-U

[filghy2]

Maybe Trump likes it cause it’s cheap. Who knows with him. Maybe he’s getting advice from one of his personal friends. It does have some side effects, as all drugs do, but seems relatively safe under the guidance of a doctor...which is why it’s going to get tested and used for this around the world anyhow (just as it already was before he opened his mouth about it).

I'm not sure it's that benign. Not all doctors are equally careful, and Trump's pushing this will lead to many more people taking it without adequate safeguards. The priority being given to this is diverting effort from other potential cures that have better prospects. It also makes the drug harder to get for people who need it for other reasons. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/06/trump-drug-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-170543

I think the primary motive is political. He just wants a story to divert attention from his failures, especially ignoring the earlier advice of the medical experts who are now resisting his miracle cure.

[filghy2]

Well y'all need to get covered in the blood of Jebus and y'all be saved! :praying:

Or is it doomed.. :nervous:]

Natural selection works in many ways

[Stavros]

Maybe Trump likes it cause it’s cheap. Who knows with him. Maybe he’s getting advice from one of his personal friends. .

According to Huffington Post (which does not refer to the Brilliant Mr Kushner) the President is receiving advice from Rudolph Giuliani, Peter Nabarro and a businessmen called Bernard Marcus. Thus Giuliani in the Washington Post:

"...Giuliani shrugged off concerns from Fauci and other medical experts, telling the Post that Trump agrees with him about hydroxychloroquine.
“I’m sure [Fauci] thinks I am an ignoramus,” Giuliani told the newspaper.
“They’ve thrown cold water on it because they are academics,” he said of scientists. “We’ve got thousands of people dying, sweetheart. And by the time you blind test it, we’ll have 100,000 people who are dead. Why don’t we get in the real world of being a doctor instead of being an academic?”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-hydroxychloroquine-malaria-drug_n_5e8b1d9ec5b6cc1e4778cbd6?ri18n=true&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS9j b2xsZWN0Q29uc2VudD9zZXNzaW9uSWQ9M19jYy1zZXNzaW9uXz BmYTc3NzhiLWVjZWMtNDdkNi1hOGUyLTE3ZjU4NWU5ZjZmMyZs YW5nPWVuLXVzJmlubGluZT1mYWxzZQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAC1PHOwPoF7qES4o1hmZoiTPQCt_ yl1r_eCqLpCArNDy7KgAQ0Ju4voxYqHgN1dO_YBKfPI3Q8n5CL SlzWJEbjgUMD4Db0hgV1HVzvc5a7Som1BVGAncD82As1z3SCqu tf9EsX7QbRUEqt3nzXOjvfzt9MFTCaDBzo6yKyv-bdfc

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Rover177]

Death toll for the US 2019/20 Winter period for both coronavirus and flu is less than half of the normal flu deaths od 'normal' years. The figures were released a few days ago.

[filghy2]

Death toll for the US 2019/20 Winter period for both coronavirus and flu is less than half of the normal flu deaths od 'normal' years. The figures were released a few days ago.

Source? The CDC data actually show a fairly normal flu season, and they don't include Covid-19 cases. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

[Fitzcarraldo]

Death toll for the US 2019/20 Winter period for both coronavirus and flu is less than half of the normal flu deaths od 'normal' years. The figures were released a few days ago.

Covid-19 is just getting started. Don't be an idiot.

[Del06]

Covid-19 is just getting started. Don't be an idiot.

If only people would stop being idiots when they were told to.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Seasonal flu fans, check the latest totals here:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Over 82,000 dead worldwide from coronavirus, and we're nowhere near done with it.

[broncofan]

Almost 2,000 people died today in the U.S. from Covid-19. That's an annualized rate of 730,000. We're not even at peak yet either. It takes someone an average of 23 days from the date of infection to die (an average of 18 days from diagnosis; 5 days incubation). When infections peak and begin to fall, deaths continue to spike for at least a couple weeks after. What keeps us from staying at this level and beyond? Either the measures states have instituted or herd immunity. If you don't institute distancing measures it runs through society, kills millions and only stops when a critical mass have gotten it. I don't understand how that's not obvious.

15% of people who get this need to be hospitalized. What do the seasonal flu fans think happens to the death rate if you overload hospital capacity?

[filghy2]

You would think the Trump fans would actually take note of what their infallible leader has said - 100,000 to 240,000 deaths predicted even with current measures versus 24,000 to 63,000 flu deaths this year.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/31/trump-coronavirus-pandemic-could-kill-many-240-000-americans/5100446002/

[Rover177]

Source was The Australian newspaper; a paper not politically affiliated, articles and opinions from all.

[blackchubby38]

Almost 2,000 people died today in the U.S. from Covid-19. That's an annualized rate of 730,000. We're not even at peak yet either. It takes someone an average of 23 days from the date of infection to die (an average of 18 days from diagnosis; 5 days incubation). When infections peak and begin to fall, deaths continue to spike for at least a couple weeks after. What keeps us from staying at this level and beyond? Either the measures states have instituted or herd immunity. If you don't institute distancing measures it runs through society, kills millions and only stops when a critical mass have gotten it. I don't understand how that's not obvious.

15% of people who get this need to be hospitalized. What do the seasonal flu fans think happens to the death rate if you overload hospital capacity?

Speaking as someone from New York, if we get to the end of this month and the number of hospitalizations are still dropping, I think we should start lifting some of the restrictions so people can get back to work. Because if we get to April 29th and Governor Cuomo stays he wants to keep the stay at home orders in place for another 2 weeks, you might start seeing a push back against them.

While I have no issue with the measures that have been taken, I really don't think enough consideration has been given to the impact they have had on people physically, mentally, and emotionally.

[broncofan]

Speaking as someone from New York, if we get to the end of this month and the number of hospitalizations are still dropping, I think we should start lifting some of the restrictions so people can get back to work. Because if we get to April 29th and Governor Cuomo stays he wants to keep the stay at home orders in place for another 2 weeks, you might start seeing a push back against them.

While I have no issue with the measures that have been taken, I really don't think enough consideration has been given to the impact they have had on people physically, mentally, and emotionally.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/coronavirus-nyc-hospital-icu.html

It's very rare I don't want to write a rebuttal. As an abstract, it's reasonable to consider quality of life and the economy versus the containment of an illness. The reality in this case is different.

Had this been handled even as well as our neighbors to the north did per capita, 10,000 people who are now dead would be alive with about the same amount of sacrifice to our economy. It's a false choice between the economy and the pandemic. If you open up the economy and don't have enough testing and contact tracing, you go right back to the same hell, maybe worse. Anyhow, in the article above you can read a doctor's perspective from the icu. Staying home reduces his risk. Also note it doesn't sound like he's describing anything close to the flu.

[filghy2]

Source was The Australian newspaper; a paper not politically affiliated, articles and opinions from all.

You must be joking. The Australian newspaper is owned by Rupert Murdoch, the owner of Fox News. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Australian

[blackchubby38]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/coronavirus-nyc-hospital-icu.html

It's very rare I don't want to write a rebuttal. As an abstract, it's reasonable to consider quality of life and the economy versus the containment of an illness. The reality in this case is different.

Had this been handled even as well as our neighbors to the north did per capita, 10,000 people who are now dead would be alive with about the same amount of sacrifice to our economy. It's a false choice between the economy and the pandemic. If you open up the economy and don't have enough testing and contact tracing, you go right back to the same hell, maybe worse. Anyhow, in the article above you can read a doctor's perspective from the icu. Staying home reduces his risk. Also note it doesn't sound like he's describing anything close to the flu.

I actually work for a hospital that's undergone some massive changes over the past month to handle the surge of Coronavirus patients. As of last count, around 260 patients suffering from the virus have been discharged. So I'm pretty aware of what's going on the front lines of this pandemic. I'm also know that this is nothing like the flu.

I'm not saying we get back to normal all at once. Just like we gradually put in place social distancing and stay-at -home orders, we can do same when it comes to re-opening things.

[broncofan]

I actually work for a hospital that's undergone some massive changes over the past month to handle the surge of Coronavirus patients. As of last count, around 260 patients suffering from the virus have been discharged. So I'm pretty aware of what's going on the front lines of this pandemic. I'm also know that this is nothing like the flu.

I'm not saying we get back to normal all at once. Just like we gradually put in place social distancing and stay-at -home orders, we can do same when it comes to re-opening things.
Thank you for all that you're doing. Sincerely. I'll write you back after a night of sleep. I'm not in NYC and don't work in a hospital so I appreciate the insight.

I'm not sure what the right timeline will look like. Preliminarily I feel like the fact we were three weeks late on testing, two to three weeks late on stay at home orders calls for caution once we get things under control. If we could ramp up testing the way South Korea has done, then we can gradually get things going.

[filghy2]

Australia is well ahead of the US in terms of flattening the infection curve, and they are only talking cautiously about the possibility of easing some restrictions early next month. It's unclear what that might involve, but I doubt we are going to see restaurants. bars, etc reopening so soon.

[lucx]

speaking from Italy... The virus here has hopefully passed its peak (after 4 weeks of complete lockdown and a lot of deaths)... the numbers are going down but everyone knows that to be back to normality is still very far... i have some hope to go back to a normal life after the summer... I do not know which are the actions taken from the US but from what i see from your numbers let me tell you: your contagion peak is still really far to come... Stay at home and stay safe... this is not like a flu... it's more like a Super Flu and if you have some health problem on your own (any health problem...) or you cannot afford a top quality and quick health assistance from good doctors you are really likely to risk your life if you get it...

[african1]

Seasonal flu fans, check the latest totals here:
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

Over 82,000 dead worldwide from coronavirus, and we're nowhere near done with it.

Do you believe the numbers from China?

[african1]

Do you believe the numbers from China?

As a way for them to laugh at the whole world, the number of death stopped at 3,333. Go figure.

[holzz]

so, any ladies posting here,how has business been for you?

[fred41]

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by blackchubby38 http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1924338#post1924338)
I actually work for a hospital that's undergone some massive changes over the past month to handle the surge of Coronavirus patients. As of last count, around 260 patients suffering from the virus have been discharged. So I'm pretty aware of what's going on the front lines of this pandemic. I'm also know that this is nothing like the flu.


I'm not saying we get back to normal all at once. Just like we gradually put in place social distancing and stay-at -home orders, we can do same when it comes to re-opening things.

I live in NYC too and I agree with you. Testing still isn’t what it should be (or getting lab results , which are backed up all over the place)but it’s different in both -areas around the world , and even counties within different states here. Sometimes it has to do with logistics...sometimes demographics. Hell, the overall numbers in this country alone are disproportionately affected by different areas within it ...such as NYC where we live and entertain right on top of each other. That being said , I don’t know about the country, but NYC isn’t going back full throttle any time soon....but strict isolation will have to end in a couple of months. We may have to isolate differently, or alter living arrangements - whatever - but you can’t do this for another six months. There are simply too many other problems caused by completely shutting things down that simply can’t be ignored. Developing therapeutics could help for sure, as science is going full throttle on this. But you can’t keep emptying out the prisons, as we are doing here and shuttering businesses. A vaccine will take another year. You can’t keep it all completely locked down til then. Who can tolerate that besides hermits and folks with guaranteed upper wage incomes? Obviously , you can’t completely end it overnight, otherwise you can waste all the pain we already out ourselves through, but you have to go back to living, perhaps with some permanent lifestyle changes. Soon.

[fred41]

I guess if anything good comes out of all this - at least it gives the anti-vaxxers something to chew on.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Do you believe the numbers from China?

They're likely higher than reported, which doesn't bode well for those pulling for seasonal flu.

[broncofan]

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by blackchubby38 http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1924338#post1924338)
I live in NYC too and I agree with you. Testing still isn’t what it should be (or getting lab results , which are backed up all over the place)but it’s different in both -areas around the world , and even counties within different states here. Sometimes it has to do with logistics...sometimes demographics. Hell, the overall numbers in this country alone are disproportionately affected by different areas within it ...such as NYC where we live and entertain right on top of each other. That being said , I don’t know about the country, but NYC isn’t going back full throttle any time soon....but strict isolation will have to end in a couple of months.
The gulf between "end of April" and six months is huge. I agree this can't go on forever and it's probably a lot harder in NYC than elsewhere. The only point I'm making is that if you're not at the bottom of the curve with infections and you relax things without any way of tracking new infections, it will ramp up quickly again.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/new-york

This is a model a lot of people are looking at. It shows you guys are at peak right about now assuming distancing continues. By May deaths are relatively flat and since deaths trail infection by 23 days, late May would probably be a compromise. I think lots of places are going to be eager to open up in May though, and it just depends how prepared they are with testing what the consequence will be.

Edit: so maybe I agree with you both but think June is a better target. I also am getting some insight into how tough it is to be quarantined in nyc, which I probably should have been able to imagine.

[broncofan]

Hey Fred and Blackchubby, what do you guys think about the job De Blasio has done? I don't know NYC politics but every time I read a news article that mentions him the guy is saying or doing something stupid.

[blackchubby38]

Hey Fred and Blackchubby, what do you guys think about the job De Blasio has done? I don't know NYC politics but every time I read a news article that mentions him the guy is saying or doing something stupid.

Like everything else he has done with this city, a shitty job. In his briefings, he comes off more as begging for things than acting liking a leader.

[blackchubby38]

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by blackchubby38 http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=1924338#post1924338)
I actually work for a hospital that's undergone some massive changes over the past month to handle the surge of Coronavirus patients. As of last count, around 260 patients suffering from the virus have been discharged. So I'm pretty aware of what's going on the front lines of this pandemic. I'm also know that this is nothing like the flu.


I'm not saying we get back to normal all at once. Just like we gradually put in place social distancing and stay-at -home orders, we can do same when it comes to re-opening things.

I live in NYC too and I agree with you. Testing still isn’t what it should be (or getting lab results , which are backed up all over the place)but it’s different in both -areas around the world , and even counties within different states here. Sometimes it has to do with logistics...sometimes demographics. Hell, the overall numbers in this country alone are disproportionately affected by different areas within it ...such as NYC where we live and entertain right on top of each other. That being said , I don’t know about the country, but NYC isn’t going back full throttle any time soon....but strict isolation will have to end in a couple of months. We may have to isolate differently, or alter living arrangements - whatever - but you can’t do this for another six months. There are simply too many other problems caused by completely shutting things down that simply can’t be ignored. Developing therapeutics could help for sure, as science is going full throttle on this. But you can’t keep emptying out the prisons, as we are doing here and shuttering businesses. A vaccine will take another year. You can’t keep it all completely locked down til then. Who can tolerate that besides hermits and folks with guaranteed upper wage incomes? Obviously , you can’t completely end it overnight, otherwise you can waste all the pain we already out ourselves through, but you have to go back to living, perhaps with some permanent lifestyle changes. Soon.

I swear it looks like every person that they released from prison has wound up in my neighborhood.

[fred41]

Hey Fred and Blackchubby, what do you guys think about the job De Blasio has done? I don't know NYC politics but every time I read a news article that mentions him the guy is saying or doing something stupid.

Many politicians right now seem to be judged by two different standards: How they acted before the pandemic...and how they act now. I feel that he fails on both counts.
He was always terrible. Unlike many on this site...and even more folks on other social media, I ‘try’ not to let ideology, and the approval of my friends, guide my opinions of politicians. I try (perhaps not always successfully) to let my opinions be judged by their actions, sometimes in comparison to others, and how they will impact my over all life.

DeBlasio is the worst kind of politician: wrapped (and often blinded by) ideology, lazy, corrupt , hypocritical, whiny and often trying to cover his (and his wife’s) tail to the detriment of all others. This, of course covers many, if not most, politicians, but many are often very good at managing staffs and quelling fear - thereby creating more stability in a crisis (right now - Andrew Cuomo is a good example of this - clearly having his own corruption problems, not to mention many glimmers of personal arrogance in the past, but shining as a stable rudder in these shaky times).

Folks in NYC are horrendous when it comes to voting...so DeBlasio won two terms at a time when, either the reanimated corpse of Mayor Abe Beame or a wheel of cheese, would have been a better choice. At first, he blamed all this cities problems and short comings on President Trump - an obvious easy target - until all the investigations brought out the fact that under his administration, everything was inadequately short for years....and then there was the problem of himself and the head of his health administration urging New Yorkers to ignore the virus , go out have fun...go to all the celebrations...live it up...when the virus was already hitting.

So now he says to not point the finger at anyone, because no one really understood the scope of what was coming, having never really dealt with anything like this before. To some extent I believe he’s right in this..but he only pushes it now, because the media already exposed him. But he continues to empty the prisons even beyond what is safe and without any real forethought...and he still whines when given attention. I could go on, but unless you live here, you may not always understand...because to an outsider he seems like such a progressive darling, perhaps, instead of the actual asshole he really is.

Just want to add that, unfortunately New York is basically a one party town. This hurts in in general, because it keeps voters disinterested and often stops the brightest lights from running. The Democratic Party machine runs everything because of this...and when they don’t, it’s often even worse because that’s when ideological extremes win out, since those are the most rabid voters and likely to show up at a sparse election.

[broncofan]

DeBlasio is the worst kind of politician: wrapped (and often blinded by) ideology, lazy, corrupt , hypocritical, whiny and often trying to cover his (and his wife’s) tail to the detriment of all others. This, of course covers many, if not most, politicians, but many are often very good at managing staffs and quelling fear - thereby creating more stability in a crisis (right now - Andrew Cuomo is a good example of this - clearly having his own corruption problems, not to mention many glimmers of personal arrogance in the past, but shining as a stable rudder in these shaky times).

I think the key is that he's wedded to an ideology and sees every situation through that prism no matter what's going on. When that sort of thing is a problem for people, stupidity compounds it. That's the sense I've gotten when I've seen examples of his policies and the example you provide with the prison. There's a kernel of a good idea there that he probably misapplies, to everyone's detriment. I asked about him not to pander but because he seemed unusually incompetent to me when I've looked at some of the choices he made.

Even when he was asked to close down the schools and he said he didn't want to because kids rely on schools to get their meals. That's an important consideration. So why didn't he close the schools and find a way to provide meals for kids? Because he wanted to make some sort of ideological point about poverty. He could have provided for those kids and dealt with the emerging public health crisis.

[fred41]

I swear it looks like every person that they released from prison has wound up in my neighborhood.

We live in a town where ideology now rules - rich hipster gentrifiers vote for politicians vehemently opposed to gentrification. political activists control both houses of the NYS and fight for bail reform, a noble and just cause, but not when it’s to the detriment of public safety. The subways are once again, full of the mentally unstable who live in them...and criminals are once again released to terrorize the neighborhoods they come from...to the cheers of the loudest voices (friends and relations) , but to the quiet fears of their potential victims. This is what ideology has wrought.

[fred41]

I think the key is that he's wedded to an ideology and sees every situation through that prism no matter what's going on. When that sort of thing is a problem for people, stupidity compounds it. That's the sense I've gotten when I've seen examples of his policies and the example you provide with the prison. There's a kernel of a good idea there that he probably misapplies, to everyone's detriment. I asked about him not to pander but because he seemed unusually incompetent to me when I've looked at some of the choices he made.

Even when he was asked to close down the schools and he said he didn't want to because kids rely on schools to get their meals. That's an important consideration. So why didn't he close the schools and find a way to provide meals for kids? Because he wanted to make some sort of ideological point about poverty. He could have provided for those kids and dealt with the emerging public health crisis.

Exactly Bronco.

[broncofan]

Australia is well ahead of the US in terms of flattening the infection curve, and they are only talking cautiously about the possibility of easing some restrictions early next month. It's unclear what that might involve, but I doubt we are going to see restaurants. bars, etc reopening so soon.
Australia IS well ahead of us in terms of not having nearly as many infections per capita nor deaths per capita at peak. This is not to diminish what you guys have done because you've clearly handled this situation better than most countries, but what effect do you think weather has?

I've read a couple of articles that basically say that warmer weather and humidity doesn't make the virus go away but may make a slight difference in transmissibility which can matter a lot in aggregate. Has there been any talk of that?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Australia IS well ahead of us in terms of not having nearly as many infections per capita nor deaths per capita at peak. This is not to diminish what you guys have done because you've clearly handled this situation better than most countries, but what effect do you think weather has?

I've read a couple of articles that basically say that warmer weather and humidity doesn't make the virus go away but may make a slight difference in transmissibility which can matter a lot in aggregate. Has there been any talk of that?

There are an awful lot of cases in hot, humid Florida. The Australian population, in general, is more dispersed than in the US. Big cities like Melbourne and Sydney are fairly dense, but most of the country isn't. Surely that's a factor.

[Fitzcarraldo]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/us/woman-licked-grocery-store-items-trnd/index.html

[broncofan]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/us/woman-licked-grocery-store-items-trnd/index.html
I'm in Pittsburgh, PA. We had someone do that at a store and they had to throw away thousands of dollars worth of merchandise. Stuff like that makes you lose faith in humanity. Right now on right wing media they are claiming that coronavirus deaths are being intentionally inflated.

They give an example of someone who has a heart condition who then has a heart attack during the late stages of Covid-19. The attribution to covid-19 is correct imo because someone with an underlying condition might only have a fatal exacerbation of that condition when dealing with a serious virus. If anything there's a lot of evidence deaths have been under-counted in New York because the number of people dying per day at home has been much higher since the outbreak.

BTW, I have a sibling in Miami. Desantis waited too long to shut things down, and I think there's a religious gathering exemption, but your numbers don't look much worse if at all than ours in PA.

[Stavros]

Many politicians right now seem to be judged by two different standards: How they acted before the pandemic...and how they act now. I feel that he fails on both counts.


Thanks for this Fred, as I can imagine NYC being run by a corrupt party machine which needs to satisfy both its constituents and the powerful financial forces one assumes play a major role in the admnistration of NYC, But that is also because my experience of local governmet in one Borough in London when I was a member here of the Labour Party in the 1980s, depressed me because the corruption was so open, and came from the normally 'holier than thou' left of the party.

As I can't really judge from here, where does Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez fit -or not fit- in this mosaic?

[Stavros]

For those of you interested in conspiracy theories, the latest one I am alerted to concerns the claim that behind Covid 19 lies the spectre of World Government, and behind that screeen is Bill Gates. The claim is that Bill Gates has become a major donor to the WHO to the extent that he 'fixed' the appointment of its latest DG; that it is not coincidental that Gates organized a one-day conference in October 2019 -'Event 201'- that brought decision makers together to ask how they would tackle...a viral infection becoming a pandemic; that is is not coincidental that -"300 US soldiers participated as athletes in the Wuhan Military Games together with a large contingent of American support personnel. The timing and the circumstances of the event were more or less ideal to open up a new pathogenic front in the US government’s informal “hybrid war” against China (https://www.unz.com/pescobar/no-weapon-left-behind-the-american-hybrid-war-on-china/)." (source: see second link at end)

It is not coincidental because Gates and the 'Deep State' which he represents believe the world's population must be reduced (how? I hear you ask, oh go on, tell me through a fatal virus) and that data collection -of EVERYONE- is a key -but that this is how World Government is created. If only Spiro Skuros had suggested Microsoft be re-named the Tyrrell Corporation we would be half-way to Blade Runner. That was a movie, not a documentary.

So the links are below and you can have fun deciding if the 45th President is a radical determined to break up the international order and go to war with China, or a tool of the very 'deep state' he often sneers at and blames for his misfortunes, because he has been told it is the safest way to hang on to his money, so he becomes a compliant tool of Bill Gates.

The problem is that by its nature a viral infection cannot be controlled, and while it may -must- need national and international co-operation, that is not the same as World Government. Skouros has a poll in his youtube video which claims when people were asked who they feared most, Bill Gates was way ahead of North Korea.

The other problem is that so many people and institutions have received money from Gates, including Dr Fauci, it is hard to know if it is because Gates has an 'agenda' that binds those people and institutions into an ulterior motive, or if they received the money because Gates thought it would help them. And a lot of the money Gates gave to the WHO came from Warren Buffet. Is he in on the plan? Not long ago George Soros was the bogey man, so I guess if you are a billionaire, it comes with baggage. Who'd have thought it?

So there it is -this was a planned, co-ordinated infection, Made in America.

Skouros video is here-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Aps2NPe54

Article from which the quote in the post came from, is here-
https://ahtribune.com/world/3926-life-sciences-or-death-sciences.html

[Fitzcarraldo]

Right now on right wing media they are claiming that coronavirus deaths are being intentionally inflated.

They give an example of someone who has a heart condition who then has a heart attack during the late stages of Covid-19. The attribution to covid-19 is correct imo because someone with an underlying condition might only have a fatal exacerbation of that condition when dealing with a serious virus. If anything there's a lot of evidence deaths have been under-counted in New York because the number of people dying per day at home has been much higher since the outbreak.

BTW, I have a sibling in Miami. Desantis waited too long to shut things down, and I think there's a religious gathering exemption, but your numbers don't look much worse if at all than ours in PA.

They're still pulling for seasonal flu!

DeSantis takes his lead from Trump. Hell, he had a press conference yesterday where he wore one glove.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

They're still pulling for seasonal flu!

DeSantis takes his lead from Trump. Hell, he had a press conference yesterday where he wore one glove.Agree they are. And the governor of Georgia Brian Kemp who took his sweet ass time to issue a statewide stay at home order, and claim that he didn't know that asymptomatic people can spread the virus.

[broncofan]

Agree they are. And the governor of Georgia Brian Kemp who took his sweet ass time to issue a statewide stay at home order, and claim that he didn't know that asymptomatic people can spread the virus.
Both he and De Blasio said that. I'm not trying to brag but I posted about asymptomatic cases in the politics forum on February 27th. I'm not a doctor, have no science background, and am not responsible for the public's welfare. Total dummies.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Both he and De Blasio said that. I'm not trying to brag but I posted about asymptomatic cases in the politics forum on February 27th. I'm not a doctor, have no science background, and am not responsible for the public's welfare. Total dummies.Not surprised that De Blasio said the same thing said, I know you wasn't to brag. and agree De Blasio and Kemp are dummies.

[fred41]

As I can't really judge from here, where does Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez fit -or not fit- in this mosaic?

Don’t want to overburden this thread Stavros, but I didn’t want to leave your question hanging either. It’s hard for me to judge her on a local level, because I don’t know what she specifically does for her district. I think, with her primary win, that she did somewhat wake up the Democratic Machine, so that their members realize that, at least occasionally, they have to actively campaign, kiss a few babies, and not just take the election for granted. That’s how she won the primary. She really did a lot of leg work and got her name out there. She ran an excellent campaign (run brilliantly by Sait Chakrabarti..who, I think, was the brains behind all that). Her district has a very large Hispanic community (with a fairly large LGBTQ community in Jackson Heights), so you would’ve thought that Joe Crowley, a very powerful man in the machine at that time, would’ve at least looked over his shoulder at a strong possibility of an over throw. He got lazy because New Yorkers simply don’t vote so he took it for granted. But in low turnouts , a strong ideological wheel can get the grease. Ideologues always have a zealous constituency. Google will show that she won 15,897 to Crowley’s 11,761...but that’s out of a population of 712,053. winning the Democratic Primary in most of NYC generally wins the general election. She ran against paper candidates. The Republican never campaigned. I couldn’t describe him if he stood in front of me.

On a National level she’s a media darling. She looks good in designer suits and the more the stupid right wing media mentioned her , the more press she received. She seems like another politician, who, when speaking off a script or wearing an earpiece sounds articulate, but is often filled with ridiculous gaffes when speaking off the cuff. There isn’t an extreme left wing box she won’t check. She’s a stereotype..which makes her a cartoon to me.
The same can be said of Bernie Sanders, but he’s not a NYC politician... though, I believe, he does come from Brooklyn. I will say, I think Bernie’s probably one of the least corrupt long time politicians I’ve seen...but that’s probably the only good thing I can say about him.

It’s going to be interesting to see how AOC does in her next election. There are some active people running against her, but it’s hard to see her losing , with the national interest shes gained and the campaign cash that often comes with that.

P.S. I’m also glad that her endorsed candidate for Queens DA , Tiffany Caban, an extreme left wing, decriminalize absolutely everything moonbat, lost her election by a handful of votes.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Somehow senile Joe Biden knew this was coming. Check out this editorial from him from January 27th:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/01/27/coronavirus-donald-trump-made-us-less-prepared-joe-biden-column/4581710002/

[broncofan]

Both he and De Blasio said that. I'm not trying to brag but I posted about asymptomatic cases in the politics forum on February 27th. I'm not a doctor, have no science background, and am not responsible for the public's welfare. Total dummies.
Fitzcarraldo: And it looks like De Blasio and Kemp have a contender for the title of dumbest elected official. Statements like this endanger a lot of people. Scary.

https://twitter.com/KevinCate/status/1248365705503932420

[filghy2]

Australia IS well ahead of us in terms of not having nearly as many infections per capita nor deaths per capita at peak. This is not to diminish what you guys have done because you've clearly handled this situation better than most countries, but what effect do you think weather has?

I've read a couple of articles that basically say that warmer weather and humidity doesn't make the virus go away but may make a slight difference in transmissibility which can matter a lot in aggregate. Has there been any talk of that?

I haven't seen any discussion of that. Until 3 weeks ago we were on a fairly similar trajectory to other countries, and it was warmer back then. If it's a factor it has probably been far less important than other things.

[filghy2]

The Australian population, in general, is more dispersed than in the US. Big cities like Melbourne and Sydney are fairly dense, but most of the country isn't. Surely that's a factor.

Australia is actually more urbanised than the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country Nearly 60% of the population live in 5 big cities with over 1 million population. Average population density is very low, but 70% of the country is virtually uninhabitable due to lack of water.

It is true that the largest Australian cities are probably less densely populated than the largest US cities, so there is some advantage, but less than commonly assumed.

[sd123223]

What city are you in Flighy?

[african1]

Australia IS well ahead of us in terms of not having nearly as many infections per capita nor deaths per capita at peak. This is not to diminish what you guys have done because you've clearly handled this situation better than most countries, but what effect do you think weather has?

I've read a couple of articles that basically say that warmer weather and humidity doesn't make the virus go away but may make a slight difference in transmissibility which can matter a lot in aggregate. Has there been any talk of that?

I wish that was true as I love Australia and Australians. Unfortunately the Tsunami wave has not yet hot Australia. Australia will see its cases skyrocket once they go through their own winter in the coming few months. Luckily they have few months to prepare and get those PPE and ventilators ready.

[african1]

Somehow senile Joe Biden knew this was coming. Check out this editorial from him from January 27th:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/01/27/coronavirus-donald-trump-made-us-less-prepared-joe-biden-column/4581710002/

Didn't he call Trump's action to shut all travel from China on February 6th Xenophobic and uncalled for. Could you imagine the cases we would have if he was President!

[Stavros]

Looking back, I think most politicians called it wrong, even some in the medical profession. Simple reason, they did not want to contemplate the worst at that stage. They tightened their buttocks, clenched their jaws, and put their hands together to pray that it not happen here. It happened.

[Stavros]

Don’t want to overburden this thread Stavros, but I didn’t want to leave your question hanging either.

Agreed, the topic is off piste. But a fascnating post with some insights I could not know from here. Many thanks, and stay well!

[broncofan]

Looking back, I think most politicians called it wrong, even some in the medical profession. Simple reason, they did not want to contemplate the worst at that stage. They tightened their buttocks, clenched their jaws, and put their hands together to pray that it not happen here. It happened.
There was a pretty broad consensus among epidemiologists pretty early on. Politicians who were saying reckless things in February and March really have no excuse for themselves. There's a doctor on television here called Dr. Drew who repeatedly said that covid-19 is less virulent than the flu and in February said people had a greater chance of getting hit by an asteroid than dying of it. He has no excuse for himself and his words almost certainly caused death.

By the time the virus was out of China, which had an unbelievably strict lockdown as they were bleaching the streets, what basis did anyone have for not believing it would spread? What basis did anyone have for not thinking it was deadly when the numbers in every health system looked ugly?

Almost all of the people who want to open up the economy without any plan for controlling resurgent outbreaks are people who had no clue even in early March this was going to be bad.

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/status/1248637226268983297

[african1]

This Pandemic could have been stopped in November with minimal damage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEQcvcyzQGE&list=LLKwQWT_tNDOk4UE7v3EGh2w

[african1]

The World Health Organization WHO failed humanity


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb32Fv-MX80&list=LLKwQWT_tNDOk4UE7v3EGh2w

[african1]

Very Sad


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmUxSlOoUE&list=LLKwQWT_tNDOk4UE7v3EGh2w

[african1]

Education is important


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beDmuDDknNI&list=LLKwQWT_tNDOk4UE7v3EGh2w

[african1]

Laboratory workers weak hygienic practices, caused the Virus to escape from within its walls. The Virus was already present in bats. And this was a regular medical lab. Not a military lab as some conspiracy theories have it. But the Chinese cover-up caused the whole world dearly in human life and both emotional and financial suffering and hardship.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIHWaaJNktQ&list=LLKwQWT_tNDOk4UE7v3EGh2w

[Fitzcarraldo]

Oh boy, the memes are coming next.

[african1]

Reopening Wet Markets is a Chinese Slap in the face of the world. It is where SARS, H1N1, MERS, and Covid-19 came from. The Covid-19 link is still being investigated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHUwIry0_i8

[african1]

Wet Markets and general conditions of Hygiene in China explained by a young Chinese woman. Very interesting video indeed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P-P4vrY1Oc

[filghy2]

Looking back, I think most politicians called it wrong, even some in the medical profession. Simple reason, they did not want to contemplate the worst at that stage. They tightened their buttocks, clenched their jaws, and put their hands together to pray that it not happen here. It happened.

I think politicians in most countries were too slow to act initially, but some have been faster learners than others (and some seem incapable of learning at all). The only countries that acted decisively seem to have been the few Asian countries that had more experience with previous pandemics, as well as cultures that are more accepting of putting the collective interest before individual interests.

Unfortunately, we seem to be incapable of taking decisive action to head off a crisis that requires people to make sacrifices until the crisis is already here. Politicians are in a Catch 22 situation because if they succeed in heading off the crisis many people will accuse them of over-reacting and imposing economic costs unnecessarily. We are seeing this already as the data start to show that lockdowns have succeeded in avoiding the more pessimistic scenarios. If that argument wins out politically you can guarantee the same mistakes will be made in the next pandemic.

[filghy2]

What city are you in Flighy?

Sydney region

[sd123223]

No probs Melbourne here

[Stavros]

Oh boy, the memes are coming next.

Sky News Australia, presumaby another cog in Murdoch's propaganda machine. If reporting the truth was the basis of journalism, Fox News would not exist.

[Stavros]

Unfortunately, we seem to be incapable of taking decisive action to head off a crisis that requires people to make sacrifices until the crisis is already here.

This is the key point, and we are suffering as a result of fear, when what politicians fear most is losing their seats, or the next election.

[african1]

This is the key point, and we are suffering as a result of fear, when what politicians fear most is losing their seats, or the next election.

How so? How are we suffering? Could you elaborate?

[broncofan]

This is the key point, and we are suffering as a result of fear, when what politicians fear most is losing their seats, or the next election.
Part of it is a lack of courage but part of it is a failure to understand how exponential growth works. If people weren't paying any attention they couldn't see the inevitability of 7-800% growth rates per week when they do nothing. They also might not make the attribution when the curve bends and doubling time is suddenly a week or more after two weeks of distancing.

As Filghy's post said, it is probably unreasonable to hold countries to the same standard as countries that have dealt with previous infectious disease outbreaks like Sars and even Ebola. We might not have the expertise to perform the contact tracing of South Korea and it's unreasonable to expect the compliance with lockdowns before there's any kind of discernible outbreak. But that shouldn't blind us to the difference between the results Canada and Australia have gotten versus the United States and Britain. Or one could compare Norway and Sweden, who have had very different approaches and different outcomes. Had we shut down two weeks earlier in many places in the U.S. we'd be talking about thousands fewer deaths.

In the U.S. we can even see the results of different governors decisions since we've had very little federal leadership. We can see the kind of inertia it creates in a federated system to have a leader who does not act, does not marshal resources, does not deliver on promises about testing, and who makes it difficult for governors to act because he's feeding their citizens inconsistent messages.

[african1]

Sky News Australia, presumaby another cog in Murdoch's propaganda machine. If reporting the truth was the basis of journalism, Fox News would not exist.

It's very interesting that many are still using the oldest tool in propaganda itself. Shooting the messenger instead of focusing on the message itself. The Nazis did it to destroy everything Jewish. People are still using the same intellectual prostitution tool until today. Yea, this was on Fox News, therefore everything they say must not be true. Tell me, how is that different from let's say a Trump supporter calling your lovely media that you read and cherish so much: FAKE NEWS. I sit in he middle, yet I watch so many Lefties take the so-called high moral ground yet they will character assassinate anything and everything that disagrees with their own narrow views.

[Stavros]

The point that is relevant here is how Fox News began this crisis by claiming their is no crisis. What their information was based on I do not know, as the signs and messages that were emerging from China and the WHO made it clear this was a serious infection and that the potential for it to be pandemic rather than a localized epidemic was very strong. Denying the facts in front of them means that Fake News in this context is the deliberate distortion of those facts.

My recollection is that the sub-culture of fake news became a marked feature of the Republican Campaign in 2016 and that it was a deliberate tactic to avoid debating issues, because it is easier to dismiss what you find uncomfortable as 'fake news' and shut down debate, it is a means whereby a serious topic can be treated as if it was without merit. We have seen over the last three months how many people in public life refused to take Covid 19 as seriously as they should have and this is true of diverse politicians not just Republicans.

Your problem is that there is a National Crisis in the USA, with a President who refuses to lead it. It is no good shrugging one's shoulders and saying the States must do what they want, because in this crisis, what was needed was a campaign coordinated by the President that created a framework every town, city and state could refer to and act upon with Federal assistance across the board and not just confined to a monumental Act of Congress pledging to spend another trillion or two. You can't deal with Covid 18 just by throwing money at it.

Had Fox News from the start based its news on real facts derived from the science, its viewers may have accepted, even demanded more action from the President. They have changed their tune now, because it transpires Lachlan Murdoch who is supposed to run Fox News had not been seen in the office in New York with the assumption he wasn't bothered, whereas even his dad could see how damaging their coverage has been, to the extent it was reported the Murdoch's are hiring a battery of lawyers to deal with any legal cases that arise from their shoddy coverage. For Murdoch, money is everything, and I guess Fox News will survive, but its reputation, such as it was, has suffered greatly.

Left or right doesn't matter right now, whereas the stark realization is that the President has abdicated his responsibilities, to host a TV show in whch he is the main act. And there he is, alllowing Fauci and Birx their moment, and then flipping the advice they give as if it were irrelevant. Indeed, the lectern is set high so that when Fauci stands in front of it, he looks small, the coded message being: unimportant.
And what is the point of receiving advice on the science and the medicine when this TV Host claiming to be the President describes Covid 19 as a 'germ'?

Your President is an idiot. And that is not fake news.

[filghy2]

It's very interesting that many are still using the oldest tool in propaganda itself. Shooting the messenger instead of focusing on the message itself.

If you don't believe in shooting the messenger then why are you down-voting people's posts just because they've disagreed with you? You've down-voted my recent posts in this thread just because I criticised something you wrote in another thread. You even down-voted my reply on where I live! A bit childish, don't you think?

[african1]

If you don't believe in shooting the messenger then why are you down-voting people's posts just because they've disagreed with you? You've down-voted my recent posts in this thread just because I criticised something you wrote in another thread. You even down-voted my reply on where I live! A bit childish, don't you think?

Here is another one. All right.

First, do you have a proof I downvoted your posts? Did you get a confirmation message stating: "African1 downvoted your post"?
That was a rhetorical question by the way.

Second, and most importantly, I can downvote whatever post I like, and I can upvote whatever post I like. It is my right to do so. The button exists there for me to click it. Since I am an American and proud to be so, I see this voting issue as a First Amendment issue.

Finally, what is truly childish, is you giving weight to downvotes and upvotes in an online forum where each one of us hides behind fake usernames. It shouldn't matter in any kind of forum, let alone a pornographic one.

[filghy2]

Here is another one. All right.

First, do you have a proof I downvoted your posts?

Yes I do, which is how I know you didn't actually do what you just said you did. I also know which drongo upvoted your post :-)

[african1]

Yes I do, which is how I know you didn't actually do what you just said you did. I also know which drongo upvoted your post :-)

Good for you. Now go deal with your fires.

[Laphroaig]

Your President is an idiot. And that is not fake news.

2 images which sum up the thick, narcissistic, bloated, orange bigot in this crisis perfectly...
1243585

1243584

[lucx]

i really can not understand some people: you have the world (the whole world itself) in front of you that is facing a crisis and let me only tell you one thing... Negate it is not going to fade this problem away...
I can only tell you one thing to you who live in the US: do not believe that this situation is going to be solved in few weeks like your president is telling you... the death count will go on for months ...
and even if the governement will stop to update you in one week or 2 about this situation the people will keep dying for Covid-19 until there is a Vaccine or a Therapy (a cheap one that most of the people can afford) or until there will be so many persons infected to have a believable herd immunity...

[dakota87]

Truth is most people were downplaying the problem because Chinese communist party wasn’t being truthful. The Chinese who did try to sound warning alarms were muzzled or were disappeared.

[drongo]

How sad is it when someone has to check up and see who has
up or down voted their post and comments.

[broncofan]

Truth is most people were downplaying the problem because Chinese communist party wasn’t being truthful. The Chinese who did try to sound warning alarms were muzzled or were disappeared.
All of that was known in January. The R value of the virus was known, the case fatality rate was known, and the fact that China couldn't contain it despite taking extreme measures. Most people were downplaying the problem because Trump (and Fox News) did not listen to epidemiologists who were nearly unanimous in the threat this posed and he was downplaying it.

Everyone knows China was not transparent about what was going on in late December. By January everyone including the public had access to information about the virus as they published its genome sequence. We had our first case in this country in January. We had one of the lowest rates of testing per capita of any industrialized country throughout February when community spread was taking place.

As for travel bans which someone mentioned. A travel ban might delay the amount of time it takes to deal with your first case, though the virus spreads to countries that you haven't banned travel with who can then enter your country. The fact is we have 532,000 cases in the U.S. and counting and they didn't all come from foreigners (I'd wager more than 99% didn't). It was community spread once we had our first case and we did nothing to mitigate it.

African1 and drongo are definitely dumbing up this thread. You haven't downvoted my posts yet but you can go ahead and do that. Why make light of there being fires in someone's country?

[broncofan]

Here is another one. All right.

First, do you have a proof I downvoted your posts? Did you get a confirmation message stating: "African1 downvoted your post"?

What is it with Trump supporters and figuring things out long after it's useful? People can see who votes on their posts.

[african1]

What is it with Trump supporters and figuring things out long after it's useful? People can see who votes on their posts.

I am going to respond in two parts, because like a woman 👩, you put a lot of innuendos in your sentences. Anyway, he is part 1.

I don't need to figure out things about how this forum works. I am rarely here. My visits usually follow a cyclical trend. I guess the Corona Virus brought me back. So unlike you my friend, I am not glued to HA jizzing 24/7. So there are things I don't know and don't need to know about the mechanics of VBoards. Because I don't care.

Now more importantly, I am not insecure like you. I can care less if every members downvoted every message I write. I don't need to go to my settings like a Teenage Girl and see who rated me. It's probably important to you and that's OK. I will stop rating your posts because I don't need a human life on my conscience

[broncofan]

I am going to respond in two parts, because like a woman , you put a lot of innuendos in your sentences. Anyway, he is part 1.

I don't need to figure out things about how this forum works. I am rarely here. My visits usually follow a cyclical trend. I guess the Corona Virus brought me back. So unlike you my friend, I am not glued to HA jizzing 24/7. So there are things I don't know and don't need to know about the mechanics of VBoards. Because I don't care.

Now more importantly, I am not insecure like you. I can care less if every members downvoted every message I write. I don't need to go to my settings like a Teenage Girl and see who rated me. It's probably important to you and that's OK. I will stop rating your posts because I don't need a human life on my conscience
Wow. So three paragraphs to explain why you didn't figure out what everyone else did about three years ago. Also, you seem to have me confused with filghy because you didn't rate any of my posts. Can't wait for part 2. Riveting stuff;

[african1]

What is it with Trump supporters and figuring things out long after it's useful? People can see who votes on their posts.

Now here is part 2:

Who told you I am a Trump Supporter? I just wrote two days ago that I sit in the Middle. I actually voted for Hillary in 2016. I also supported her in 2008. I am glad I was wrong in both instances because I can only imagine her handling of China and the Travel ban imposed on February 6th. And also as Obama turned up to be a good president with few shortcomings nonetheless. You can even read my posts from 2012 where I used to debate Republicans here and defend Obama because I felt most the criticism labeled against him was in essence, in its deep core racial. But let's be honest, the US is doing just fine. People are going to die from this. Anyone who believes Chinese death figures, well they are not very smart.

The fact is: China Lied and People Died. I put this squarely on China who decided to send 5 MILLION AMBASSADORS OF DEATH around the world. Trump did the unthinkable and shut down all travel from China. He was attacked by the NYTimes, CNN, MSNBC and every major media outlet out there. I will post clips in a later post to remind everyone. Sleepy Joe Biden called his actions Xenophobic. Now the media, like China is trying to rewrite History. At least watch some of the videos I posted. Only one or two are from SkyNews Australia. And all videos are backed by evidence. Now the Travel Ban could not have been imposed had Trump not won the Supreme Court Case in his Travel ban on Syria, Yemen, Lybia, Iran, Somalia and Sudan. It made it easy to implement new travel bans. Maybe a blessing in disguise.

Now the only problem, we should have shut down travel from Europe too. But because of Chinese lies, no one knew the extent of the danger until Italy (a democratic and open country) started reporting the correct figures. China acted like the virus can be controlled. But Italy told us the truth and then the World woke up. By then, it was too late.

Didn't the WHO and China kept saying there is no human to human contagion way until the end of January?!!!! And even when we closed Chinese fights to the US, WHO criticized the decision!!! How do you answer to that? And please don't mention FoxNews again, because (1) I don't work for them, and (2) I couldn't care less about them.

[broncofan]

We have 560,000 cases in this country. Travel bans are helpful, but when the virus was already out of China, a travel ban without testing is useless. This is especially true when we already had cases in the U.S. in January. Every other country had to deal with a lack of transparency from China and some did it well and others did it poorly. The guy who compared Covid-19 to the flu in March did it poorly.

Countries that put into place social distancing restrictions as soon as they had community spread have fewer deaths per capita than we do. This includes Canada, Australia, and Norway. But there are many others if you'd like to take a look. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Trump would not have needed the previous Supreme Court case to be able to shut down travel from a country during an epidemic. The previous case was only contested because Giuliani and others made it clear that the motive for their ban was based on the Muslim population of the selected countries. Additionally, you mentioned the first amendment in a previous post which you also don't understand. You don't have a first amendment right to post on a private forum because the entire bill of rights only proscribes government conduct.

I actually think you're a Trump supporter or you wouldn't possibly be able to think he did a competent job. In late January the characteristics of the virus were known, including how transmissible it is, the case fatality rate, and even the genome sequence. It was not only sequenced in China, but French scientists sequenced it before the month of January ended.

We also have reports of hospital workers who had to wear trash bags to work and re-sterilize masks for weeks on end. The President has a tool called the Defense Production Act which allows him to have any manufacturer make these things. He preferred to let front-line health care workers not have equipment than to invoke it. But yeah sure, being the leader of the richest country in the world and endangering health care workers by not providing them the right equipment is a sign of competence.

[broncofan]

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1249344477547753473

Here is a graph showing the curves of other countries. As a helpful hint, a flatter curve is a good sign.

[african1]

Check the dates?

https://i.ibb.co/n8vT5h5/NYTimes.jpg

https://ibb.co/wrXTxDx
https://ibb.co/wrXTxDx

[african1]

https://i.ibb.co/Jj6C9CT/The-Media-is-Clueless.jpg

[african1]

https://i.ibb.co/Fm582mR/Sleepy-Joe.png

[broncofan]

https://i.ibb.co/Fm582mR/Sleepy-Joe.png
He wrote this on March 12 and is exactly right. A ban can help but it's not sufficient. How does a travel ban stop the spread of a virus that is already in your country? We already had community spread at this point. We now have more cases than any other country.

[broncofan]

Check the dates?
Holy shit. A New York Times tourism reporter wrote something on February 5th, which definitely means it's not the President's fault that our country, the wealthiest in the world, had among the lowest test rates per capita in the industralized world while a pandemic was sweeping our country. Great work.

[african1]

Holy shit. A New York Times tourism reporter wrote something on February 5th, which definitely means it's not the President's fault that our country, the wealthiest in the world, had among the lowest test rates per capita in the industralized world while a pandemic was sweeping our country. Great work.

There you go again with the lowest test rates per capita. This is claim is a strange and crazy as Trump trying to seal off the Southern Border with a wall and using the example of Israel border with Egypt as an example. Yea a border that is 150 miles long and still cannot be 100% secured.
I swear some people must brain-dead when regurgitating the news. America is a vast country. You cannot compare it to S. Korea where 60% of the population live in the Capital Seoul, or Germany, a country the size of New Mexico. We are at 3 million tests, More than any country by far. S.Korea has 500k, yet the media is not satisfied. Besides why do you need to test a bunch of rednecks scattered around the countryside when they only meet once or twice a year during a holiday. NYC and the big metropolitan areas testing is going well.

This is why I am starting to see the bias in the left. An establishment I belonged to for so long.

[african1]

https://i.ibb.co/Jj6C9CT/The-Media-is-Clueless.jpg

Why no comments on this? or it it too much to handle?

And the NYT opinion page reflects the view of the editorial board. I just don't have time to sip through more articles but they were behind as well.

[broncofan]

There you go again with the lowest test rates per capita. This is claim is a strange and crazy as Trump trying to seal off the Southern Border with a wall and using the example of Israel border with Egypt as an example. Yea a border that is 150 miles long and still cannot be 100% secured.
I swear some people must brain-dead when regurgitating the news. America is a vast country. You cannot compare it to S. Korea where 60% of the population live in the Capital Seoul, or Germany, a country the size of New Mexico. We are at 3 million tests, More than any country by far. S.Korea has 500k, yet the media is not satisfied. Besides why do you need to test a bunch of rednecks scattered around the countryside when they only meet once or twice a year during a holiday. NYC and the big metropolitan areas testing is going well.

This is why I am starting to see the bias in the left. An establishment I belonged to for so long.
You not being on the left is not a loss to anyone . If you want to control community spread you have to have a high percentage of tests in every area there is an outbreak. We have outbreaks now in every region of the country. South Korea tested people when they were actually able to perform contact tracing. We now are doing better per capita than we were but it matters when you test. If you wait for a disease to get out of control and then test, it is a lot less useful.

I read about 40% of people who take a test in New York test positive. This is a sign that even now testing is not very good. Your President is going to be judged by how well he controlled outbreaks, not by what Sean Hannity and you have to say.

The reason I didn't mention your wall of articles is that it looks like you copied it from someone else and I'm not able to see them or the dates. President Trump comparing covid-19 to the flu in March isn't made better by other people doing it in February. Your argument is that it's okay if he's incompetent as long as some other people were.

Further, you didn't respond to a single part of my argument on the last page. How does a travel ban help when you already have thousands of undetected cases in your country? How does it help when you have more cases than the countries whose people you're banning?

[african1]

You not being on the left is not a loss to anyone .

I gotta say this made me laugh.

[african1]

Your President is going to be judged by how well he controlled outbreaks, not by what Sean Hannity and you have to say.

I don't understand this thing about calling it: "Your President". I understand if the other guy said it since he is Australian or I don't know where the hell he is from, but you my man. You are an American. Whether you like it or not, HE IS YOUR PRESIDENT TOO. So please don't be silly!



The reason I didn't mention your wall of articles is that it looks like you copied it from someone else and I'm not able to see them or the dates.

What a convenient way to run away from a topic! I need to remember to use this in the future.


Further, you didn't respond to a single part of my argument on the last page. How does a travel ban help when you already have thousands of undetected cases in your country? How does it help when you have more cases than the countries whose people you're banning?

It does help because it stops new cases from adding up to the load. It stops from having to trace new infections or having new pockets of infection spur up. This is the same thing as isolating patients. A patient can deal with his own virus load, but if they have other patients next to them, breading on them, giving them more virus loads, then their immune system may succumb. This is why HIV-positive patients are discouraged from having sex with other HIV-positive partners without protection. Your system does not need new loads to deal with, the same way the US does not need new infections from other countries now. Better seal off you territory and

[filghy2]

We have yet another self-proclaimed independent who won't say a bad word about Trump, is only interested in creating smokescreens and refuses to engage in any meaningful discussion. This is Mr Fanti all over again. At least Mr Fanti didn't stoop to juvenile insults. And the aptly-named drongo seems like peejaye all over again - he's been busy down-voting my posts for months now because I called him out for calling people 'faggot'.

[broncofan]

He's the President but I didn't vote for him and frankly I don't believe you when you say you didn't. That was my way of saying you're a partisan where my only interest is in seeing him do a competent and professional job. If he did that I'd give him credit.

He doesn't even seem to know that viruses are treated with anti-virals rather than antibiotics. He told people at one point he thought a vaccine would be available to the public in a few months. I watch him and look for hope that he can handle this crisis and instead I've heard him spout some of the dumbest shit ever.

In your second quote box you seemed to erase the part where I explained that other people being wrong doesn't absolve the leader of this country when he is. I prefer not to have a pre-packaged list of headlines without the articles themselves or even visible dates that's intended to make a point you won't even articulate. That is what propaganda often looks like.

Your third paragraph doesn't make much sense. Sure, shut down travel but the point is that it's not sufficient. It's not even the most important factor, especially when your country has the most cases in the world. As for tracing new infections, we didn't do much of that. Have you looked at a map of our infections lately? I wanted him to do an effective job. At this point, what is the point of mentioning the travel ban? He didn't do a good job of controlling the virus that got into our country pretty damn early.

[african1]

We have yet another self-proclaimed independent who won't say a bad word about Trump.

Didn't I just criticize Trump wall and how crazy that is?!!!! This tells me you are not a serious debater as either you don't read people's responses before you start defecating yours, or you suffer from ADHD and hence cannot focus nor comprehend stuff.

[broncofan]

Didn't I just criticize Trump wall and how crazy that is?!!!! This tells me you are not a serious debater as either you don't read people's responses before you start defecating yours, or you suffer from ADHD and hence cannot focus nor comprehend stuff.
Trump's approach to covid-19 has been to erect barriers not to people but to a virus carried by people who were already in this country in January. It is the most harebrained part of what you're defending. A virus that spreads at an exponential rate was in this country spreading exponentially in January and you and orange fuckface are talking about how banning Chinese travel and calling the virus the Chinese virus was the no nonsense approach we needed. Maybe we needed to do something about the virus spreading within our own borders. Yay? Nay? What do you think?

Let me ask you: we have 560,000 cases in this country. What percent do you think is from community transmission and what percent from people coming in on airplanes and boats?

[african1]

He's the President but I didn't vote for him and frankly I don't believe you when you say you didn't. That was my way of saying you're a partisan where my only interest is in seeing him do a competent and professional job. If he did that I'd give him credit.

He doesn't even seem to know that viruses are treated with anti-virals rather than antibiotics. He told people at one point he thought a vaccine would be available to the public in a few months. I watch him and look for hope that he can handle this crisis and instead I've heard him spout some of the dumbest shit ever.

In your second quote box you seemed to erase the part where I explained that other people being wrong doesn't absolve the leader of this country when he is. I prefer not to have a pre-packaged list of headlines without the articles themselves or even visible dates that's intended to make a point you won't even articulate. That is what propaganda often looks like.

Your third paragraph doesn't make much sense. Sure, shut down travel but the point is that it's not sufficient. It's not even the most important factor, especially when your country has the most cases in the world. As for tracing new infections, we didn't do much of that. Have you looked at a map of our infections lately? I wanted him to do an effective job. At this point, what is the point of mentioning the travel ban? He didn't do a good job of controlling the virus that got into our country pretty damn early.

Wow, I can't believe how hard it is for you to say MY President. I din't vote for him, yet I can say it. As I can easily say Bush was MY President, and Clinton before him was MY president. Now you can believe whatever you want. I am and was honest in my answers. If I am lying in a forum where no one even knows my real ID, then I am lying to myself and I lack respect for myself. Which let me assure you: is very fucking far from reality. I wouldn't spend all this time debating you if I didn't (1) enjoy it, and (2) I thought it was worthy. So why lie?

Anyway, let us not forget he is a Businessman and not a Biology major. I think Trump always tries to emulate Reagan, and Reagan was no genius. Yet the country fared well under his Presidency. What this country truly needs in a leader who is a cheerleader for it. This country can run on autopilot as witnessed many times in the past when we had gridlock between Congress and the White House. It was built to run on auto-pilot by few genius men and we are thankful to them. This Covid-19 storm shall pass. So don't worry. 😉

[african1]

Trump's approach to covid-19 has been to erect barriers not to people but to a virus carried by people who were already in this country in January. It is the most harebrained part of what you're defending. A virus that spreads at an exponential rate was in this country spreading exponentially in January and you and orange fuckface are talking about how banning Chinese travel and calling the virus the Chinese virus was the no nonsense approach we needed. Maybe we needed to do something about the virus spreading within our own borders. Yay? Nay? What do you think?

Let me ask you: we have 560,000 cases in this country. What percent do you think is from community transmission and what percent from people coming in on airplanes and boats?

Logarithmic..The Function is a Log(x).

[filghy2]

Logarithmic..The Function is a Log(x).

Why are you so keen to embarrass yourself? A logarithm is the inverse to an exponential. A graph in logarithms is just a way to present something that grows exponentially. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithm

[broncofan]

What this country truly needs in a leader who is a cheerleader for it. This country can run on autopilot as witnessed many times in the past when we had gridlock between Congress and the White House. It was built to run on auto-pilot by few genius men and we are thankful to them. This Covid-19 storm shall pass. So don't worry. 
I'll respond to this in the morning. I don't think we only need a cheerleader. Though if we only did need a cheerleader and we could run on autopilot during a crisis Trump might have been the right guy. But alas, it matters who he appoints, who he takes advice from, the things he tells the public, and the decisions he makes.

[Stavros]

The fact is: China Lied and People Died. I put this squarely on China who decided to send 5 MILLION AMBASSADORS OF DEATH around the world. Trump did the unthinkable and shut down all travel from China. He was attacked by the NYTimes, CNN, MSNBC and every major media outlet out there.
Didn't the WHO and China kept saying there is no human to human contagion way until the end of January?!!!! And even when we closed Chinese fights to the US, WHO criticized the decision!!! How do you answer to that? And please don't mention FoxNews again, because (1) I don't work for them, and (2) I couldn't care less about them.

A few points-
1) The US did not ban flights from China, it imposed travel restrictions, which is how 40,000 Americans were able to return Stateside from China -were any of them infected?

2) The first case of the Coronavirus outside China was reported in Thailand on the 13th of January and the human-to-human form of the infection was confirmed by the WHO on the 20th of January, the same day that the first case was reported in South Korea, and in the USA, in the State of Washington. This led the President to state of the viral infection- "We have it totally under control. Its one person coming in from China".
If you take January 20th as a key date, consider the difference in the responses of the Governments of South Korea and the USA (with the UK just as sloppy as the US)
Within a week of its first confirmed case, South Korea’s disease control agency had summoned 20 private companies to the medical equivalent of a war-planning summit and told them to develop a test for the virus at lightning speed. A week after that, the first diagnostic test (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-testing-specialrep/special-report-how-korea-trounced-u-s-in-race-to-test-people-for-coronavirus-idUSKBN2153BW?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=twitter) was approved and went into battle, identifying infected individuals who could then be quarantined to halt the advance of the disease.
A week after that, the Wall Street Journal published an opinion article by two former top health policy officials within the Trump administration under the headline Act Now to Prevent an American Epidemic (https://www.wsj.com/articles/act-now-to-prevent-an-american-epidemic-11580255335). Luciana Borio and Scott Gottlieb laid out a menu of what had to be done instantly to avert a massive health disaster.

Top of their to-do list: work with private industry to develop an “easy-to-use, rapid diagnostic test” – in other words, just what South Korea was doing.

It was not until 29 February, more than a month after the Journal article and almost six weeks after the first case of coronavirus was confirmed in the country that the Trump administration (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/trump-administration) put that advice into practice. Laboratories and hospitals would finally be allowed to conduct their own Covid-19 tests to speed up the process.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/28/trump-coronavirus-politics-us-health-disaster

see also
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/timeline-trump-covid19-responses/

The point here is that whatever the newspapers were reporting, or Fox News broadcasting, or Joe Biden saying, only one man is President at one time when decisions -real decisions- must be made.
On balance, it is clear: the President failed to grasp the importance of this viral infection, and as a resut the US lost control of the political agenda and more crucially, the public health agenda, aggravated by the fact the US does not have an integrated public health service such as exists in Europe.


3) Epidemics and Pandemics appear to have a timeline, but that is only with regard to recorded cases. Even now there is no absolute proof that the infection began in the Wet Market in Wuhan, though I am not sure if there is any proof either that a 'leak' from a laboratory in Wuhan is the source. There are now claims there may have been cases in the Wuhan area earlier in November which at the time were thought to be a bad case of 'flu. The origins are thus as obscure now as they were for years with regard to HIV/AIDS, even today there is a dispute as to the nature of HIV and some scientists dispute it eve exists.
I do not state this to diminish the role played by the Wet Market or the consumption of the meat of obscure or endangered species, this happens in China and also happens in Africa. It may be that a Coronavirus of this type has existed for some time but has been dormant, or it may have merged with another viral infection, such as 'flu to become what is now known as Covid 19. What this has done is expose the dangers to humans of eating species that are not normally part of the human diet, it is not as if most Chinese eat bamboo rat or dog, and there are moves to end the farming of bamboo rats in particular- (warning, photos in this link)
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/09/bamboo-rats-left-in-limbo-as-breeders-push-back-against-china-wildlife-ban

4) The WHO appears slow to respond because a) it did not know at first what the illness was, b) it worked on the basis it could be contained in China, and c) the WHO cannot simply declare the existence of a Pandemic until there are cases in more than one country that do constitute a pandemi.

5) I take issue with this claim: "China who decided to send 5 MILLION AMBASSADORS OF DEATH around the world".
-China does not and will not benefit economically from a Pandemic that stops production at home and trade abroad. It does not benefit politically from a deliberate strategy of infection that is equivalent to a declaration of war; and it does not benefit socially owing to the restrictions this places on the movement and contacts of its own population.
-China when it lies, does so to protect the Party, Chernobyl is the model here. The ony excuse they have is that neither they nor the WHO knew in December just how virulent this illness is, and how easily and quickly it can be spread.

Indeed, it is because viral infections cannot be controlled in their early stages that biological warfare has been so rare, other than the use of chemical weapons in limited areas in the form of bombs which have chemical reactions but not viral infections. Every case of a viral infection that has spread from one source to become first an epidemic and then a pandemic, be it the Plagues that wracked Europe between the 13th-19th century, the Typhoid epidemic in the US in the 20th century along with the Global Influenza Pandemic that erupted in 1918, every one begins in obscurity, and because of this, carriers who have not been identified as carriers are free to spread the illness, which is how Covid 19 has spread across the world.
Testing and control in advance of a vaccine have been crucial to the different outcomes in, say, South Korea and the US.

What this viral infection has exposed is the different ways in which Goverments have acted, and as I suggested before, there was a time when key actors did not want to believe this was serious enough to merit the policies that have since been imposed. It is the classic case of the boy shouting 'Fire!' in the cinema, and nobody taking any notice, because they don't see fames, and don't smell smoke.

And now we are burning, and the smoke is in our lungs, and our loved ones are dead.

[filghy2]

America is a vast country. You cannot compare it to S. Korea where 60% of the population live in the Capital Seoul, or Germany, a country the size of New Mexico. We are at 3 million tests, More than any country by far. S.Korea has 500k, yet the media is not satisfied. Besides why do you need to test a bunch of rednecks scattered around the countryside when they only meet once or twice a year during a holiday.

You may not have heard, but Australia is also a vast country. We've tested 1.4% of the population compared to less than 0.9% in the USA. https://virusncov.com/ We have had strict restrictions across the whole country for 3 weeks now and we have only 2 deaths per 1 million population compared to 67 deaths per million in the USA.

Canada, another vast country right next door to you, has tested 1.1% of the population and has 19 deaths per million population. Doesn't that suggest to you that something's gone wrong in your country?

Incidentally, only 20% of South Korea's population lives in Seoul. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul Maths is clearly not your strong point.

[rodinuk]

At a time when millions of people are having to be on their best behaviour it’s appalling to see one or two on this thread behaving in the worst possible manner. They’ve been banned.

[broncofan]

You may not have heard, but Australia is also a vast country. We've tested 1.4% of the population compared to less than 0.9% in the USA. https://virusncov.com/ We have had strict restrictions across the whole country for 3 weeks now and we have only 2 deaths per 1 million population compared to 67 deaths per million in the USA.

Canada, another vast country right next door to you, has tested 1.1% of the population and has 19 deaths per million population. Doesn't that suggest to you that something's gone wrong in your country?

Incidentally, only 20% of South Korea's population lives in Seoul. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul Maths is clearly not your strong point.
This illustrates the problem very well. I also want to point out that while big cities are the hardest hit, every state has an outbreak and it's maybe even more critical to get adequate testing to states in the early stages.

When a state has a few dozen cases, local health officials can find asymptomatic cases and mild cases by contact tracing and have those people isolate. We have an outbreak in every state, in most counties in every state, and testing bottlenecks everywhere. Even the .9% figure is misleading because we are allocating a lot of tests to places that already have very bad outbreaks.

What he was suggesting is that local health authorities not have the testing to control their outbreaks until it's a big problem. That is why even very capable governors have had difficulty acting quickly enough. You cannot control something you don't know the severity of. As I said, we were at least two weeks too late everywhere.

[broncofan]

What this country truly needs in a leader who is a cheerleader for it. This country can run on autopilot as witnessed many times in the past when we had gridlock between Congress and the White House. It was built to run on auto-pilot by few genius men and we are thankful to them. This Covid-19 storm shall pass. So don't worry. 
Nothing illustrates better what Trumpism is. Early on there were promises that he could restore us to greatness. Now we hear that all we need is a cheerleader and someone to do nothing in office. So what if people die who would not have died? So what if other countries did a much better job of handling this? So what if he doesn't know the most basic things he's talking about and is saying things that make health officials' jobs harder. The important thing is that he boasts afterwards and is a cheerleader for himself and the country.

It always starts with promises he'll do a great job and ends with a shoulder shrugging exclamation "well who cares if he didn't".

[Fitzcarraldo]

It always starts with promises he'll do a great job and ends with a shoulder shrugging exclamation "well who cares if he didn't".

But previously the shrugging was accompanied with, "Just look at your 401(k)!" Not hearing much of that now.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Nothing illustrates better what Trumpism is. Early on there were promises that he could restore us to greatness. Now we hear that all we need is a cheerleader and someone to do nothing in office. So what if people die who would not have died? So what if other countries did a much better job of handling this? So what if he doesn't know the most basic things he's talking about and is saying things that make health officials' jobs harder. The important thing is that he boasts afterwards and is a cheerleader for himself and the country.

It always starts with promises he'll do a great job and ends with a shoulder shrugging exclamation "well who cares if he didn't".Completely agree. And taking no responsiblity for his poor handling of the crisis and blaming everyone else when things go wrong.

[Laphroaig]

Completely agree. And taking no responsiblity for his poor handling of the crisis and blaming everyone else when things go wrong.

Yep, was just about to post this...

1243764

[Del06]

"like a woman" - a little sexism there too.

[GroobySteven]

At a time when millions of people are having to be on their best behaviour it’s appalling to see one or two on this thread behaving in the worst possible manner. They’ve been banned.

I don't normally step into these threads but I took once look at the top of this page with Stavros responding to someone who is so factually incorrect (and probably here to just sow discontent) that I was about to ban them. Thanks for taking care of it.

[MrFanti]

Truth is most people were downplaying the problem because Chinese communist party wasn’t being truthful. The Chinese who did try to sound warning alarms were muzzled or were disappeared.
Muzzled by the Chinese government.

[filghy2]

At a time when millions of people are having to be on their best behaviour it’s appalling to see one or two on this thread behaving in the worst possible manner. They’ve been banned.

Strangely, African sent me a PM asking why he's been banned. He still doesn't get it.

[filghy2]

It always starts with promises he'll do a great job and ends with a shoulder shrugging exclamation "well who cares if he didn't".

Ironically, the man who has been passing the buck and refusing to accept responsibility is now claiming that he has total authority when it comes to reopening the economy. https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/04/13/trump-claims-total-authority-over-state-decisions-1275506

It's weird that Trump's approval ratings are holding up despite his floundering and blame-shifting and despite the obvious evidence that things are not going well. I can't conceive of this being the case if an Australian leader was behaving in a similar fashion. It's like a case of mass cognitive dissonance: when things are going well Trump is the all-powerful leader who deserves all the credit, but when things go wrong it's something beyond his control and the fault of others. Any fool can look good for a while if he comes into office at the right time, but surely dealing with a national crisis is the President's most important responsibility and the true test of whether he is any good.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Ironically, the man who has been passing the buck and refusing to accept responsibility is now claiming that he has total authority when it comes to reopening the economy. https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/04/13/trump-claims-total-authority-over-state-decisions-1275506

It's weird that Trump's approval ratings are holding up despite his floundering and blame-shifting and despite the obvious evidence that things are not going well. I can't conceive of this being the case if an Australian leader was behaving in a similar fashion. It's like a case of mass cognitive dissonance: when things are going well Trump is the all-powerful leader who deserves all the credit, but when things go wrong it's something beyond his control and the fault of others. Any fool can look good for a while if he comes into office at the right time, but surely dealing with a national crisis is the President's most important responsibility and the true test of whether he is any good.

Trump has fanatical followers who simply know he is doing the right thing, regardless of what anyone--or even he himself--says. I know a Trump diehard who posted something about Biden being incoherent. I asked him if he had watched any of Trump's insane daily press conferences. He said, "I don't need to."

He has millions of supporters who will not abandon him because they know the only alternative is socialism (which they think is identical to communism). They even think that the current supply shortages, stock market crash, and unemployment would be the normal state of things under socialism, and even though I'm no socialist I can't fathom how a capitalist system under strain and not functioning properly proves that socialism is a failure.

[Stavros]

Strangely, African sent me a PM asking why he's been banned. He still doesn't get it.

I also received the same PM and wrote a gentle reply, but it could not be sent as his account is either terminated or he can't receive PMs.

[Stavros]

Amidst all the talk of shortages of equipment or too much of it, what is emerging is a crisis in care/nursing/residential homes, which I assume are more or less the same in Europe as they are in North America. It is a crisis of its own because the people living close to each other have nowhere else to go, other than their bedrooms, and the fear that Covid 19 is not always being recorded as the cause of death.

Last year Boris Johnson gave a speech outside Downing Street in which he said he not only intended to make social care a priority, he had a plan that would be presented to Parliament, but this did not happen. The fact that in the UK and countries like Germany the size of the elderly population, (say 70+) is growing, has made care of the elderly an issue that cannot be ignored for much longer, though I don't know what the right policies might be for an sector of the economy that is more consumptive than it is productive.
When we emerge from this crisis, there will be a long term problem: deciding what part of the economy gets the money required to stimulate jobs; I doubt the care home sector-like mental health- will be the priority.

It also makes me wonder if there will be a sharp divide between people who have savings or a steady income and those out of pocket and unemployed. I noted yesterday there were 6 pages of models on Chaturbate where before there would be four, and I can imagine people desperate now to get away and head off to Thailand or Spain or wherever they can find their desire, and I assume the escorts who are not receiving clients will be in great demand -but will there be a sufficient rise in the volume of 'trade' to restore this part of the economy to where it was before?

[fred41]

It's weird that Trump's approval ratings are holding up despite his floundering and blame-shifting and despite the obvious evidence that things are not going well.
I think Trump’s approval ratings right now are at about 44 %...that’s not good. Even when the papers touted his 49% approval rating , or somewhere around that, that wasn’t good either.

In another post I mentioned how people judge politicians differently both before, and during a crisis (also after the crisis wears off ...but that’s for another conversation).
I’m not going to go back to Roosevelt’s years and I’m only going to site a few polls I saw (you can always google the rest) but here’s my take:
During 911, President Bush’s approval ratings were anywhere between 85% and 92%. His ratings before that weren’t too bad, even if you disagree with him, because he’s a likeable guy, but still. Mayor Giuliani’s (remember him? This was before he went totally nuts...lol) local approval was at something like 79%, with it being only 36% a year before (though his popularity was decent during his early stewardship of the city, when crime reduction was a huge priority). Governor Andrew Cuomo’s is at 87% ( with 70% of Republicans in NYS).

My point is, President Trump has the huge advantage of daily press conferences, when his opponent doesn’t even have the opportunity to really campaign. He also has the advantage of having two health officials , who are blessed in the charisma department. Even the economy isn’t as bad as it totally could be. All he has to do, is sound like a normal human being. He can introduce everyone and step aside...or not come out at all. He can even handle questions - all he has to do is not take any real gotcha bait and perhaps...and this one’s important...perhaps, admit he made some mistakes early on. Shit - almost everyone made mistakes early on (as Stavros mentioned in another post)...a pandemic doesn’t come up every year. At least he would’ve seemed human instead of thin skinned and petty. So my point is, his approval ratings, even when they were 49%, sucked during a crisis. I figure, with a totally non-professional guess for my part, his ratings during this crisis - even during these very polarized times, should be somewhere in the sixties...at the least.

I think he started relatively well early on , during the very first conferences..but as people watched more and more, his personality just couldn’t change. He has the inability to become a bigger person than himself. He’s totally misreading this and fucking it up.

[Stavros]

WHO busts some myths about Covid 19, useful info-
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/myth-busters

[filghy2]

I think Trump’s approval ratings right now are at about 44 %...that’s not good. Even when the papers touted his 49% approval rating , or somewhere around that, that wasn’t good either.

I guess the other thing is that the states that voted for Trump have not generally been too badly affected as yet. When it really hits them - and it's hard to see why it won't given they've been more lax about social distancing - we should see his support start to erode. It's one thing to believe bullshit when it's about someone else; it's quite another to believe it when it relates to your direct experience.

As far as I know, no president in recent decades has been reelected when the economy has been in recession or just coming out of one. Ford, Carter, and Bush I all lost when the economy was doing poorly. It looks like Trump's strategy may be to blame the Democrat states for not reopening the economy as early as he wants, but I can't see that working - especially as people will be able to see what happens in states that do his bidding.

[broncofan]

Strangely, African sent me a PM asking why he's been banned. He still doesn't get it.
He sent me two PMs so I'm flattered he likes me twice as much;). Then again the second one was on the profane side. I tried to respond and say something nice but could not.

There is a belief among some Trump supporters that harsh criticism of him is partisan. I watched two or three of his press conferences early on and I don't think I could root harder for someone to sound like they're knowledgeable and a professional. There is no standard by which he could be judged competent or even to have behaved like an adult.

I'm sure a big part of the problem is that he hasn't filled key positions with qualified people but instead with people he trusts who have no business being there. There is no doubt we will have to restart the economy before a vaccine is ready and Trump will be judged by whether he does it at the right time and whether in the places he does it there is sufficient testing to prevent outbreaks. He has a second chance as we go to the bottom of these state curves to do a thoughtful job, but I've come to expect incompetence followed by denial. Also, I'm of the opinion the federal government can't force states to open businesses as that's a state police power, but if states do it on their own the federal government should be facilitating it with lots of testing.

[broncofan]

He can even handle questions - all he has to do is not take any real gotcha bait and perhaps...and this one’s important...perhaps, admit he made some mistakes early on. Shit - almost everyone made mistakes early on (as Stavros mentioned in another post)...a pandemic doesn’t come up every year.
I agree that anyone in power was going to make at least one mistake. But when people care about what's going on they typically don't make more than one. If they can't get testing going and there's community spread, maybe they're more conscientious about distancing at the beginning. If they shut down too late and there's been too many outbreaks, maybe they're great at backing up the states with ventilators and ppe, and then do a great job of ramping up testing.

He compounds one mistake with another and his insistence on wanting to make the economy boom in the middle of a pandemic instead of just preventing economic disaster and trying to stabilize things shows that he's done such a poor job because he doesn't care. Preventing deaths is not the right incentive system for him. He is a man who is not sensitive to the difference between 60,000 dead and 20,000 dead.

[broncofan]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

I'm not linking a particular tweet but his entire twitter timeline. It shouldn't need an explanation. Any society where someone writing stuff like this during a crisis isn't a pariah is in trouble. He not only shouldn't be a leader, decent people shouldn't interact with the guy.

Are there any Republicans who think Democrats (except for total fringe people) would be okay with this kind of trash from one of our leaders?

[KnightHawk 2.0]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

I'm not linking a particular tweet but his entire twitter timeline. It shouldn't need an explanation. Any society where someone writing stuff like this during a crisis isn't a pariah is in trouble. He not only shouldn't be a leader, decent people shouldn't interact with the guy.

Are there any Republicans who think Democrats (except for total fringe people) would be okay with this kind of trash from one of our leaders?Completely agree. His entire timeline doesn't need any explanation and he shouldn't be leader at all. and no Democrats wouldn't be okay with this kind of trash from one their leaders.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I guess the other thing is that the states that voted for Trump have not generally been too badly affected as yet. When it really hits them - and it's hard to see why it won't given they've been more lax about social distancing - we should see his support start to erode. It's one thing to believe bullshit when it's about someone else; it's quite another to believe it when it relates to your direct experience.

As far as I know, no president in recent decades has been reelected when the economy has been in recession or just coming out of one. Ford, Carter, and Bush I all lost when the economy was doing poorly. It looks like Trump's strategy may be to blame the Democrat states for not reopening the economy as early as he wants, but I can't see that working - especially as people will be able to see what happens in states that do his bidding.Agree. No president in recent decades has been re-elected when the economy has been in recession. and Trump's strategy of blaming democratic states for not reopening the economy as early as he wants will backfire.

[MrFanti]

State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab studying bat coronaviruses
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

[MrFanti]

Taiwan says WHO ignored its coronavirus questions at start of outbreak
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-taiwan-idUSKBN21B160

[Fitzcarraldo]

Trump is on live now taking vengeance on the WHO. He's putting all US funding on hold. Brilliant move in the middle of a pandemic.

Because finding a scapegoat is the most important thing.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Trump is on live now taking vengeance on the WHO. He's putting all US funding on hold. Brilliant move in the middle of a pandemic.

Because finding a scapegoat is the most important thing.Not surprised at all that Trump is withholding all funding on hold from the WHO. The same WHO he was praising a few months ago. Another prime example of him taking no responsibility for his poor handling of the CO-VID 19 Pandemic and blaming everybody else for his failures.

[filghy2]

He sent me two PMs so I'm flattered he likes me twice as much;). Then again the second one was on the profane side. I tried to respond and say something nice but could not.

I'm sure a big part of the problem is that he hasn't filled key positions with qualified people but instead with people he trusts who have no business being there.

Also, I'm of the opinion the federal government can't force states to open businesses as that's a state police power, but if states do it on their own the federal government should be facilitating it with lots of testing.

1. I didn't respond to African's PM because I knew that would happen, and I don't think I could be as diplomatic as Stavros.

2. How long until Anthony Fauci gets the chop for the crime of speaking inconvenient truths?

3. Trump will probably withhold financial and other support from states who don't do his bidding (after all, they are not going to vote for him). He's getting pushback from his own side as state rights are a bedrock Republican principle. We'll see whether they go to water as usual. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/14/trump-absolute-power-conservative-backlash-186887

It looks like I've roused Mr Fanti from the dead, but I guess there's not much harm as long as he's only posting links.

[Stavros]

State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab studying bat coronaviruses
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

You may want to watch the Epoch Times video which I was alerted to and watched yesterday.
With these words of caution-

a) Epoch Times is founded and funded by supporters of Falun Gong, so be wary of the 'Communism is evil' stuff, and no, this is not a backhanded compliment to Mao or Xi.

b) the central claim is that as no bats are sold in the wet marked in Wuhan, the virus originated elsewhere, specifically the P4 Laboratory which was conducting experiments on bats and coronaviruses. There is speculation that either this was part of a long term plan to create a vaccine that would give China first mover advantage in the market should another variants of SARS break out into an epidemic or even a pandemc; or that the Lab was engaged in experiments in a biological weapon, which is why the Party has covered up many of the facts. (The owner of the firm that might sell the vaccine is the grandson of former President Jiang Zemin).

c) the 'cock-up' theory is suggested by the American molecular biologist Judy Mikovits who claims when she worked at a lab in I think, Virginia in the 1980s health and safety procedures there were sloppy. I find this hard to comprehend in either the US or the China cases, but the key point is that no precise explanation is offered as to how the virus leaked from the lab, if that is what happened.

d) the video makes much of China's global ambitions, as if it were a shocking discovery -but if one bears in mind that since 1949 China has made so much of the century of humiliation it suffered from the Opium Wars of the 1840s to the Japanese occupation that began in 1931, then with this anxiety over its past, China's determnation to establish itself as Numero Uno in East Asia is as logical as it is potentially scary. But will China and Japan go to war?

e) the US closed its own biological weapons labs in 1973, but for all we know the Miilitary may have secret facilities or programmes to ensure it can stay in touch with what the USA's enemies are doing. And in the past, the US did experiment on its own citizens with bioweapons.

f) lastly, as I said before, the use of biological/virological weapons is too broad and unpredictable to be useful- even al-Qaeda had precise, limited targets in the US on 9/11, and effective ones too.

Nevertheless, if you want to see the video, it is here-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htMUCYkFO6M

[Stavros]

For anyone interestd, I have posted my thoughts on the USA's temporary withdrawal of funding for the WHO in a different thread, which is here-
http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?101798-Trump-and-the-UN-The-slow-death-of-international-order&p=1925070#post1925070

[broncofan]

Another country that has not been doing a good job is Sweden. Their testing is insufficient, as you can see from their case fatality rate, and their deaths are starting to spike. Today they had 170 deaths which per capita would be the equivalent of 5450 deaths in the U.S. I think they're making a mistake by not shutting down like everyone else.

This article is from yesterday so it doesn't include today's totals. https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=230288

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/)

[blackchubby38]

The one thing many people were worried about with these stay at home orders, were politicians over stepping their bounds and taking things too far. That's what's happening in Michigan with their governor and people took to the streets in their cars to protest her actions.

http://www.woodtv.com/health/coronavirus/protest-for-moderate-coronavirus-rules-in-lansing-today/

[broncofan]

The one thing many people were worried about with these stay at home orders, were politicians over stepping their bounds and taking things too far. That's what's happening in Michigan with their governor and people took to the streets in their cars to protest her actions.

http://www.woodtv.com/health/coronavirus/protest-for-moderate-coronavirus-rules-in-lansing-today/
There are people in this article who believe that fishing is an essential activity in a pandemic, and that washing your hands alone will prevent you from getting a respiratory disease spread through droplets that people cough.

The state of Michigan had 153 deaths today and at the rate this country is going we'd have well over a million a year w/o distancing. We currently have 2347 today.

Anyone who believes a stay at home order at this point in Michigan, only three weeks from the initial order, is an excessive measure is not someone who thinks the economy should be slowly reopened based on the advice of epidemiologists and with at least three to four times our current testing capacity. It's possible if you cherrypick public health experts you can find one who doesn't think relaxing distancing while you're at the top of the curve would be a disaster, but most, including Scott Gottlieb, who is Trump's previous FDA head, think we need a lot more testing and the ability to conduct tracing so that we can become stricter as soon as community spread begins.

Some quotes from the article:

“I just don’t see why I can’t take my kids out fishing. I don’t see why that’s not essential. We are old enough to wash our hands, be safe about it and use some common sense — that’s all it takes,”

A business owner from Hudsonville said, “I think a lot of it is hype. Just wash your hands and stay safe.”

[broncofan]

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/14/21219021/scott-gottlieb-coronavirus-covid-19-social-distancing-economy-recession

Here's an interview with Scott Gottlieb. As I said, he was a Trump appointee, worked for the American Enterprise Institute, and seems to want people to get back to work. Yet his plan seems pretty cautious and contingent on our ability to prevent community spread. Do you really think they should unwind stay at home orders in Michigan now as opposed to 2-3 weeks from now?

[filghy2]

Another country that has not been doing a good job is Sweden. Their testing is insufficient, as you can see from their case fatality rate, and their deaths are starting to spike. Today they had 170 deaths which per capita would be the equivalent of 5450 deaths in the U.S. I think they're making a mistake by not shutting down like everyone else.

It's strange that they have done so little testing. If you are going to pursue this strategy of not shutting down and relying on people behaving responsibly then surely you should be ramping up the testing and contact-tracing.

[filghy2]

Anyone who believes a stay at home order at this point in Michigan, only three weeks from the initial order, is an excessive measure is not someone who thinks the economy should be slowly reopened based on the advice of epidemiologists and with at least three to four times our current testing capacity.

Previous generations came through the Great Depression and World War II - essentially 16 years of hardship because the economy did not properly recover before the war. How would these people have coped with that?

This virus is like a perfect storm that is exposing so many weaknesses in the US, part from the obvious one at the top:
- excessive focus on individual rights and free enterprise to the exclusion of the public good
- dysfunctional hyper-partisan politics
- systematic erosion of government capacity
- inadequate social safety nets
- poor health system
- denigration of scientific expertise

[Stavros]

Previous generations came through the Great Depression and World War II - essentially 16 years of hardship because the economy did not properly recover before the war. How would these people have coped with that?

This virus is like a perfect storm that is exposing so many weaknesses in the US, part from the obvious one at the top:
- excessive focus on individual rights and free enterprise to the exclusion of the public good
- dysfunctional hyper-partisan politics
- systematic erosion of government capacity
- inadequate social safety nets
- poor health system
- denigration of scientific expertise

"- excessive focus on individual rights and free enterprise to the exclusion of the public good
- dysfunctional hyper-partisan politics
- systematic erosion of government capacity
- inadequate social safety nets
- poor health system
- denigration of scientific expertise"

-Chapters for a book! Maybe you should write it? I would read it.

[filghy2]

Chapters for a book! Maybe you should write it? I would read it.

I'm sure we'll be seeing many books on this theme in the period ahead.

I'm not sure I have the perseverance to write a whole book. I've managed to write papers of 30-40 pages in the past, and that was quite enough for me.

[broncofan]

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/16/early-peek-at-data-on-gilead-coronavirus-drug-suggests-patients-are-responding-to-treatment/

It looks like some data from the first clinical trials for Remdesivir might come out soon. The doctor at U Chicago has said that out of 113 patients enrolled with severe disease only two have died. I make some assumptions here but if our hospitalization rate is about 20% and our cfr is 4%, would you expect a fatality rate close to 20% for people with serious illness? Maybe I'm wrong. Don't want to peddle false hope, but we'll see what the data says.

I'm also curious if there are other designs that check whether it's effective in preventing people with mild disease from progressing to severe disease. Gilead's stock is up, but that just means people read the same articles I did.

[Del06]

I think the first point in Filghy's post is the most important. There's a kind of macho American individualism here, which says I should be able to do whatever I want, and f**k the rest of you. It's based on the false picture that society is just an aggregate of individuals. rather than seeing an individual as part of a community. It's me, me, me, never us -- or if us, just a small us (my family and friends perhaps). Nobody has a constitutional right to infect other people.

[filghy2]

The Australian government has announced that current restrictions will remain in place for at least another 4 weeks. Decisions on easing them will depend on progress with testing, contact-tracing and increasing hospital capacity to deal with outbreaks.

Australia appears to be at least 2 weeks ahead of the US in flattening the infection curve, so that benchmark would suggest you should not be looking to reopen until at least early June.

[broncofan]

It would also be nice if people who say they have a constitutional right to do something would explain what the right is, what their basis is for claiming the right, and whether it can be overridden by the state's interest in saving lives. A state law can infringe on constitutionally protected rights if the law is necessary to achieve a compelling government interest. Saving lives in a pandemic is a compelling government interest and there is no other way to achieve it until we have the capability to perform contact tracing. Mandated social distancing is only unnecessary when there is a treatment, really ubiquitous testing, or a vaccine. And yes, people's right to earn a living, to operate a business, or to engage in many other public activities are important, but they're not absolute.

When I looked at each state curve I thought June looked like the perfect time too. Something about seeing people wearing camo with guns in the middle of the street makes me feel like we're going to need a compromise. But while June may be a good time in terms of where we are on each state's curve, I'm not sure how we're going to get the testing capacity we need. We've hit a bottleneck in the last week at around 150,000 tests a day.

[blackchubby38]

It would also be nice if people who say they have a constitutional right to do something would explain what the right is, what their basis is for claiming the right, and whether it can be overridden by the state's interest in saving lives. A state law can infringe on constitutionally protected rights if the law is necessary to achieve a compelling government interest. Saving lives in a pandemic is a compelling government interest and there is no other way to achieve it until we have the capability to perform contact tracing. Mandated social distancing is only unnecessary when there is a treatment, really ubiquitous testing, or a vaccine. And yes, people's right to earn a living, to operate a business, or to engage in many other public activities are important, but they're not absolute.

When I looked at each state curve I thought June looked like the perfect time too. Something about seeing people wearing camo with guns in the middle of the street makes me feel like we're going to need a compromise. But while June may be a good time in terms of where we are on each state's curve, I'm not sure how we're going to get the testing capacity we need. We've hit a bottleneck in the last week at around 150,000 tests a day.


We need to come to some sort of compromise because there is no way we can keep doing this until June. Its not good for the economy. Whether on the local, state, or federal level. Its also not good for people's physical, mental, and emotional well being.


I'm not going to lie, I wasn't happy today when I heard that Governor Cuomo extended the stay at home orders until May 15th. I think it should have been done on a two week basis.

[filghy2]

We need to come to some sort of compromise because there is no way we can keep doing this until June. Its not good for the economy. Whether on the local, state, or federal level. Its also not good for people's physical, mental, and emotional well being.

I don't think there's a simple trade-off between health and the economy. If you open up too early you are likely to get a rebound in infections that forces you to reimpose restrictions. So it's likely that you end up with a longer period of economic and other pain just for the sake of a getting a temporary respite from it.

[blackchubby38]

I don't think there's a simple trade-off between health and the economy. If you open up too early you are likely to get a rebound in infections that forces you to reimpose restrictions. So it's likely that you end up with a longer period of economic and other pain just for the sake of a getting a temporary respite from it.

You don't have to do it all at once. You can stagger it out over the course of a few weeks. Especially if the number of people being admitted into the hospitals for Coronavirus continues to decrease.

[broncofan]

I'm not going to lie, I wasn't happy today when I heard that Governor Cuomo extended the stay at home orders until May 15th. I think it should have been done on a two week basis.
I understand where you're coming from but I don't see how it could work out if we open the economy. Doctors now think 40% of transmission may occur before people have symptoms. People seem to be shedding the most virus on the first day they experience symptoms, which are often mild at the beginning.

I saw a video with Angela Merkel today where she was discussing basic reproduction number. She said she estimated Germany's was at about 1, which means that every infected person transmits to one other person. She talked about slowly opening things up and said they had calculated that if this value goes to 1.1 their hospitals would not be overwhelmed until September. If it's at 1.2 then July or something. But there is so little margin and the value without any distancing is at least 2.5. We don't even know what the sensitivity of this value is to half measures. We do know with no distancing it spreads like wildfire because that's what it did.

So I'm just curious what people think would happen if we open up? First what would open? Would people in offices with 100 people be tested? What testing capacity would we need to even be somewhat cautious? Nobody can get a test right now without symptoms no matter how many they stand to infect because capacity isn't there.

[blackchubby38]

I understand where you're coming from but I don't see how it could work out if we open the economy. Doctors now think 40% of transmission may occur before people have symptoms. People seem to be shedding the most virus on the first day they experience symptoms, which are often mild at the beginning.

I saw a video with Angela Merkel today where she was discussing basic reproduction number. She said she estimated Germany's was at about 1, which means that every infected person transmits to one other person. She talked about slowly opening things up and said they had calculated that if this value goes to 1.1 their hospitals would not be overwhelmed until September. If it's at 1.2 then July or something. But there is so little margin and the value without any distancing is at least 2.5. We don't even know what the sensitivity of this value is to half measures. We do know with no distancing it spreads like wildfire because that's what it did.

So I'm just curious what people think would happen if we open up? First what would open? Would people in offices with 100 people be tested? What testing capacity would we need to even be somewhat cautious? Nobody can get a test right now without symptoms no matter how many they stand to infect because capacity isn't there.

What I meant was that he could have extended the stay at home order until April 30th and then if need to be, extend it another 2 weeks.

Once tests become available, private businesses will be responsible for testing their own employees. Those who work for the government will be tested by public health departments. Those who work in the healthcare industry, will be tested by their respective employers.

We have to start asking ourselves some hard questions as to what the endgame is until a vaccine becomes available. Which is not happening for another 12-18 months. Are we looking to reduce the number of infections to an acceptable amount or are looking to make sure no one gets infected. We should be striving for the former because the latter isn't happening.

Are we looking to make sure that the hospitals aren't being overrun with Covid-19 cases or are we trying to make sure no one is admitted to the hospital with the virus. Because I'm quite sure that second scenario isn't a viable option at this time.

If this is truly a war, then we may need to accept the fact that there is going to be some collateral damage. We already have from an economic standpoint. The same goes for our physical, mental. and emotional well being. If someone committed suicide due to being out of work and the self isolation, was that an acceptable loss because of the greater good of society. If there is rise in domestic violence due to people being cooped up together, is that acceptable.

Until there is a vaccine or a form of treatment readily available that alleviates the symptoms of the Corona virus, there are still going to be deaths because if it. We may have to ask ourselves is there an acceptable number of daily deaths we can live with in order to get things back to normal.

As of last count, over 500 Covid-19 patients were safely discharged from the hospital that I work at. Lets say that's happening across a city and the number of admissions to the ICU go down as well. Lets say the daily number of deaths continue to decline. Shouldn't that be a goal that we should strive for?

[fred41]

Never mind.
got rid of a semi long post on American Individualism but....
While I’m here - I agree with Blackchubbies post above.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=blackchubby38;1925268

Until there is a vaccine or a form of treatment readily available that alleviates the symptoms of the Corona virus, there are still going to be deaths because if it. We may have to ask ourselves is there an acceptable number of daily deaths we can live with in order to get things back to normal.
[/QUOTE]

What will normal be, and when? If, for the sake of argument, the State of New York phases out the lockdown can we assume that retail outlets will open, be they department stores or diners or fast-food outlets? Because physical distancing is not easy in such places. Will clubs re-open, venues like the Met or Carnegie Hall or MOMA and such places, again, becasue if physical distancing is a key means of avoiding infection, such places must carry a risk. And then a General Hospital -surely the one place that has remained open and functioning where physical distancing is not only impossble, but at the closest proximity to the virus. I think as the number of new cases declines, the pressure to relax will mount, so I think that the risk element is going to be factored in, and the people responsible just hope and pray there is not a 'second wave'.

Finally, just as last night I leaned out of the window at 8pm to clap my admiration and gratitude for those in the NHS working round the clock to treat the sick and dying, be aware I was clapping for you too, and all your colleagues in health care across the USA.

[Stavros]

Forgot to ask -where is Alex Azar? Is he not the United States Secretary of Health and Human Services? He doesn't appear on the President's TV show, or maybe I missed it when he was there. Has he nothing to say?

[broncofan]

What I meant was that he could have extended the stay at home order until April 30th and then if need to be, extend it another 2 weeks.

Once tests become available, private businesses will be responsible for testing their own employees. Those who work for the government will be tested by public health departments. Those who work in the healthcare industry, will be tested by their respective employers.

We have to start asking ourselves some hard questions as to what the endgame is until a vaccine becomes available. Which is not happening for another 12-18 months. Are we looking to reduce the number of infections to an acceptable amount or are looking to make sure no one gets infected. We should be striving for the former because the latter isn't happening.

Are we looking to make sure that the hospitals aren't being overrun with Covid-19 cases or are we trying to make sure no one is admitted to the hospital with the virus. Because I'm quite sure that second scenario isn't a viable option at this time.

If this is truly a war, then we may need to accept the fact that there is going to be some collateral damage. We already have from an economic standpoint. The same goes for our physical, mental. and emotional well being. If someone committed suicide due to being out of work and the self isolation, was that an acceptable loss because of the greater good of society. If there is rise in domestic violence due to people being cooped up together, is that acceptable.

Until there is a vaccine or a form of treatment readily available that alleviates the symptoms of the Corona virus, there are still going to be deaths because if it. We may have to ask ourselves is there an acceptable number of daily deaths we can live with in order to get things back to normal.

As of last count, over 500 Covid-19 patients were safely discharged from the hospital that I work at. Lets say that's happening across a city and the number of admissions to the ICU go down as well. Lets say the daily number of deaths continue to decline. Shouldn't that be a goal that we should strive for?
Suicide is a major cause of death every year. The marginals for suicide are not anywhere near 2500 deaths a day increase because of quarantine. Could someone commit suicide because they're locked in an apartment? Yes. Could they also commit suicide because four of their family members died of pneumonia, including one who had to share a ventilator that wasn't intended to be shared? Also possible.

What is an acceptable number of deaths? How about the median for countries that used lockdowns initially instead of having some of the worst numbers in the world. Had New York locked down at the time you were annoyed primaries were cancelled, you'd be very close to the bottom of the curve. http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?108275-US-Elections-2020/page17

Nobody knows where any of this leads. Your supposition is that some economic pain can be avoided and yet here and during the 1918 flu pandemic there's been a correlation between places that handled their problem well initially and economic recovery. It's very hard to find anyone who is raring to open up early but who wasn't also resistant to the measures that would have prevented us from having among the worst outbreaks in the world.

You say once tests become available private employers can be responsible for them. Sure. They're not available. They're not even close to available for prophylactic testing. Some people with symptoms aren't getting tested. Can't we wait until there's testing infrastructure in place to keep crowded work places from being petri dishes? That's not 18 months. It does require some work from the federal government.

[broncofan]

Until there is a vaccine or a form of treatment readily available that alleviates the symptoms of the Corona virus, there are still going to be deaths because if it. We may have to ask ourselves is there an acceptable number of daily deaths we can live with in order to get things back to normal.

Yes. We're not at the point where we have singularly focused on there being no deaths no matter what the cost. The number has to be way less than 2500 people a day I would think. Can't we even wait until that shows some sign of abating? What Germany is doing is trying to figure out how it can open up and also figure out where outbreaks are so that the r number is increasing but not all the way to 2.5. That IS figuring out how they can open up society while also accepting a higher number of infections. I don't see how that approach should cause yahoos with confederate flags and assault rifles to create a gridlock in Michigan.

[blackchubby38]

Suicide is a major cause of death every year. The marginals for suicide are not anywhere near 2500 deaths a day increase because of quarantine. Could someone commit suicide because they're locked in an apartment? Yes. Could they also commit suicide because four of their family members died of pneumonia, including one who had to share a ventilator that wasn't intended to be shared? Also possible.

What is an acceptable number of deaths? How about the median for countries that used lockdowns initially instead of having some of the worst numbers in the world. Had New York locked down at the time you were annoyed primaries were cancelled, you'd be very close to the bottom of the curve. http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?108275-US-Elections-2020/page17

Nobody knows where any of this leads. Your supposition is that some economic pain can be avoided and yet here and during the 1918 flu pandemic there's been a correlation between places that handled their problem well initially and economic recovery. It's very hard to find anyone who is raring to open up early but who wasn't also resistant to the measures that would have prevented us from having among the worst outbreaks in the world.

You say once tests become available private employers can be responsible for them. Sure. They're not available. They're not even close to available for prophylactic testing. Some people with symptoms aren't getting tested. Can't we wait until there's testing infrastructure in place to keep crowded work places from being petri dishes? That's not 18 months. It does require some work from the federal government.

I wasn't annoyed that the primaries were cancelled. I just don't like the idea of giving someone in power the idea that its okay to postpone or possibly cancel an election under the guise of public safety:

I don't think either the Ohio or Connecticut primaries should have been postponed and the same goes for the remaining ones. If things have gotten back to normal by the summer, I say go ahead with the Party Conventions.

But under no circumstances should the General Election be postponed. With all this uncertainty and people being on edge, we need to have some stability and to remind people that life will go on once we get to handle on this thing. We didn't postpone elections during WWII or after 9/11. Democratic societies find a way to soldier on during times of crisis and make sure one of the principles of said society, free and fair elections, take place.

[broncofan]

I wasn't annoyed that the primaries were cancelled. I just don't like the idea of giving someone in power the idea that its okay to postpone or possibly cancel an election under the guise of public safety:

I don't think either the Ohio or Connecticut primaries should have been postponed and the same goes for the remaining ones. If things have gotten back to normal by the summer, I say go ahead with the Party Conventions.

But under no circumstances should the General Election be postponed. With all this uncertainty and people being on edge, we need to have some stability and to remind people that life will go on once we get to handle on this thing. We didn't postpone elections during WWII or after 9/11. Democratic societies find a way to soldier on during times of crisis and make sure one of the principles of said society, free and fair elections, take place.
Connecticut has over 1000 deaths. So you weren't annoyed, you just think the states were wrong to save lives by postponing something that might have been done safer. Had these primaries been held, more people would have died without any benefit. Nobody thinks the general election should be postponed, just the primary process which only needs to be completed before the convention.

You also apparently think Whitmer overstepped her bounds by saving thousands of lives with stay at home orders and not that the people protesting had received misinformation from right-wing media. She did not do anything any other responsible governor with an outbreak wouldn’t have done.

When this is all over we'll have more deaths than countries with our lead time, but at least our economy will be just as decimated.

Also, when during WWII did we have aerial bombing campaigns that made it dangerous to vote? Was 9/11 a single event or were people flying planes into polling stations?

[blackchubby38]

Connecticut has over 1000 deaths. So you weren't annoyed, you just think the states were wrong to save lives by postponing something that might have been done safer. Had these primaries been held, more people would have died without any benefit. Nobody thinks the general election should be postponed, just the primary process which only needs to be completed before the convention.

You also apparently think Whitmer overstepped her bounds by saving thousands of lives with stay at home orders and not that the people protesting had received misinformation from right-wing media. She did not do anything any other responsible governor with an outbreak wouldn’t have done.

When this is all over we'll have more deaths than countries with our lead time, but at least our economy will be just as decimated.

Also, when during WWII did we have aerial bombing campaigns that made it dangerous to vote? Was 9/11 a single event or were people flying planes into polling stations?

I thought she overstepped her bounds on certain parts of the stay at home order. I didn't have an issue with orders themselves.

I also think you could have held the primaries safely. You could have people stand six feet apart in a polling place and have a certain amount of people in the area at once.

Finally, the only reason why I brought up the general election is because someone posed the question should it be postponed.

[broncofan]

I apologize for my last post. I think I'm being too aggressive in my disagreement. You are right that being home all day and not having work is tough psychologically. I'm going to force myself to watch some netflix or I'll just be back to reading about this.

Stay safe.

[filghy2]

This article looks at the difficulties some Asian countries have faced in trying to contain the virus while keeping their economies relatively open. They have had to impose stronger restrictions due to a second wave of infections. This is despite them being far more successful in containing infections earlier, as a result of doing much more on testing and contact tracing, as well as having cultures more encouraging of compliance with official directions. Just imagine the difficulties the US will face. Anyone who thinks victory is in sight is delusional.
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/17/21213787/coronavirus-asia-waves-hong-kong-singapore-taiwan

[Stavros]

Finally, the only reason why I brought up the general election is because someone posed the question should it be postponed.

I think that might relate to the question I posed in Thought for the Day some months ago when I asked if the Conventions and the General Election could be postponed, and you were emphatic the answer should be no
But if the armed militia that were seen in Lansing over the weeked to decide to 'Liberate Michigan', and other armed miitia, be the Patriotic Front, Proud Boys, or Willy Wankas Riflemen decide to 'Liberate Virginia', 'Liberate Minnesota' or hell, just go for 'Liberate America', you may not have a country left to vote in.

[filghy2]

Can anyone comment on why California has done so much better in containing the virus? I think I read that they had twice as many returnees from China as New York state, yet deaths in New York are 30 times greater relative to the population.