The paradox of the "chaser"

[SXFX]

ok some economic theory up front...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJS7Igvk6ZM

So i was out with some friends last night...just looking to see what was out an what was worth chatting up. and i have a friend who sort of kind of plays this game but no an individual level.
Ok so we, 5 guys, walk into the bar. one of us goes for the blond, that's me. one for the redheads and one for the brunets and so on and so on ....and like any average guy in any average place we fail 90% of the time....anyone who said they do better than a 10% success rate is a lying sack of shit!

however we have this one friend who always manages to do 50/50 when it comes to getting laid / getting a number.

and it was a mystery to me.......until the other night....i actually stepped back and watched him do his thing.

a little about him and me.
I'm at the gym three day a week and for a 40+ yo guy i'm in shape..i don't have a gut, i don't have that lumbersexual look and i don't have a beard....i'm all of 5'7 but i can talk a good game.

My friend, taller and all of 150lbs soaking wet, hair looks like a bleached brillo pad and at best i would say he's on the spectrum.....but he gets laid like it's his job at times!

so whats his story!? Since i a horrible friend really never paid much attention to who he was getting laid with.
His answer was rather simple....economics.

I was like huh?
He said, "you all go for the pretty girls who look traditionally pretty! hair color not withstanding you all go for traditional looking women! i go for the "other women" or the "exotic women" at the bar."

then it hit me....case in point he will go after
the only Asian, African American, other woman at an all white bar.....
the overly tall white chick
though not a chubby chaser will go after the girl who is very bottom heavy...
the nerdy black girl
the rock and roll asian girl
the lady who is over 40 with her 30yo friends!

he goes for exotic.....the girls who everyone looks past.......per the video...we are all focused on the "blond" while he is focused on what the look past!

and his success rate is off the charts!

then i though.....(and this will get me into trouble here) would this apply to trans women?
how much more "other woman" / "exotic" can you get!

lets be honest....a solid 95% of all men are not interested in trans women.
of the 5% lets be real....less than half are interested in actually dating a trans woman!
so if you are ready to date a trans woman long term....what are you? 2% of the population? at best?

And so..if you are one of those 2% of men into dating long term trans women....shouldn't the odds be good? because all the other guys walked right past them?

Now lets look on the flip side of things? from the ladies point of view.

95% of men are not going to date you.....i'm sorry they are not that open minded.
of the 5% left say only 4% are even going to do more than just fuck you and treat you as a side piece!
of the 4% left assume half are your type...2%...and of those 2% you want the educated one who makes good money and has his life together? so you are down to 1% of men.

in theory......you the trans women are all fighting for that 1% of men who
1) are open and confident enough to date you and not just fuck you.
2) are your type
3) are financially secure to be viable

You ladies are all fighting for the "blond" in the equation.

So then why is it that all these trans dating web pages fail?
And trans women brush off this 1% of men as "chasers"?

yes in a perfect world in the perfect time no man would care if what gender you were born.....
and in a perfect world i woudn't need to go to the gym three days a week to keep my belly flat.

So what we have here is an economic model that is totally messed up.....And the only reason i can think of it is that......well......the average trans woman on an average dating web page is hit up by a million low risk pickup lines......which causes inflation of value and the mirage of choice? when in reality of the million text messages only one or two are of any value.

this is the paradox....from what i've seen of my friends deciding to go for the exotics he's done grate....but what i'm seeing here...tells me things are not working great....

i wonder if i'm missing something to complete this model?

[smalltownguy]

its already a messed up model ..and need collective effort to work over it

[SXFX]

ok i'll make it simple....my friend zigs when every one zags.
we all go for the "traditional" attractive lady.
he goes for the nontraditional attractive lady

[Cereal Escapist]

There is no secret to your friend's formula as it is tried and true and been done for years. Many men prey on the girls that don't get all the attention to make sure they do.

I would take your economic model of dating transwomen in a slightly different direction by applying the law of supply and demand to both the woman and the chaser.

1) Supply of all transwomen is low amongs the women of the world to choose from
2) Demand for transwomen is low among the entire population of men in the world.
3) Supply of chasers is high among those men who do like transwomen.
4) Thus demand to date transwomen is low among the men that seek transwomen (despite claims to the contrary).
5) Supply of Aubrey Kate's and Chanel Santini's is low among transwomen; that is, the successful women of porn are NOT representative of the average woman.
6) Demand for fully functional hot transwomen is high among changers; that is most chasers are not after the average transwoman who is a nurse, IT technician or waitress, they want what the see online.
7) Therefore, the supply of transwomen who are genuinely receptive to the advancements of men and not prejudging them as chasers, is low.

Taken all together, you can see why the system fails even before you weight the quality and wallet of the man who is looking to date a transwoman.

In the end, I don't blame some women for being so selective. Whether you are cis or trans, if you want a particular partner and are not "willing to settle" then go for it, but you can't wait for the handsome and hung investment banker with a yacht and summer home in Italy to find you by chance either. Likewise, if you are a man looking to date a transwoman, and not just the pornstar of your dreams, go out and look, you'd be surprised how many awesome women there are around you, unless you are located in a shitty part of the world. Then, just move.

In short, there are many men that do date transwomen. You just have to stop being a chaser and be open to the woman in front of you, not the cock in her panties and your ability to attach someone will increase.

I will say this, every guy wants a 10, but a 10 doesn't want every guy. That is something men need to deal with just as much as women do.

[SXFX]

i agree 100%
My last two TGGF's where " the average transwoman who is a nurse, IT technician or waitress,"
one was in IT...gorgeous redhead with an amazing body under her lumpy clothes.
and the other was a freelance music teacher.

BUT that said...I got lucky...found both lost in OKcupid.

I tried transdate.com....woooh what a mess that was!

[SXFX]

but that said.....the two i did date long term did "pass" so i don't think they qualify as "exotic"

[Cereal Escapist]

I've only truly dated 3 transwomen because I don;t count girls as being someone I dated if we never made it to a 2nd date or 2nd base. "Date" to me means multiple outings and fuck sessions over time. I have paid to fuck a few 10s (there have been 11 escorts over the years) and I am happy to have had those experiences, but I would never have dated them.

Using that definition for "date", though I have a problem with giving a numeric rating to girls I actually had feelings for, since I so heavily weight personality, intelligence and charm over looks but I guess two of them were solid 8s and one was a soft 7. In terms of cisgender girls, where i have dated 8 girls, my ratings are about the same.

[skribble1]

I've only known 2 trans girls in real life. Both young (under 25), both met at the gym, things moved along nicely in the beginning, numbers exchanged, texting/talking went well etc etc.

One was SUPER hot and she knew it, the other, not so much but still attractive. Looong story short:

I'm in that 4% that would've not just fucked um and that's it. I had no problem hanging out/being seen in public/going out a date/whatever with both of them. What ended things was their almost manic/bi polar state of mind. It never felt like I was speaking to a normal, real girl. It felt like someone trying really hard to act like one.

I was willing to not just have a chaser mindset but really treat the situation as "normally" as possible. But they made it impossible to do so. Obviously it was just an experience with 2 people but it kinda soured me a bit.

[filghy2]

I think your economic model may be missing a bit of economics. One of the basic principles of economics is that, unless there is some kind of entry barrier, any excess gains from a particular strategy cannot persist. That's because other people will see that it's a successful strategy and move into it until there is no longer any advantage in doing so. What is it that prevents this happening in the pickup/dating market?

Your model also seems to assume that people only care about scoring, and not who they score with. The alternative explanation for your story is that your daggy friend is happy to buy the cheapest product available (where the price of dating is the amount of time/effort/expense per success), whereas your other friends care more about quality.

There is an economic model that explains why the online dating market does not work well, which is the 'market for lemons'. The original example was the used car market, and the idea is that if buyers have no way to tell a good used car from a dud (information asymmetry) then the only cars on the market will duds because the owners of good cars will not get a high enough price. In the online dating market, people have no reliable way to know in advance whether potential dates are are good ones or duds, so the good ones will tend to stay out and and the duds will predominate.

[nysprod]

lets be honest....a solid 95% of all men are not interested in trans women.


A much higher percentage than that are interested, at least to the point where they look at trans porn.

Additionally, upwards of 90% of male trump supporters believe Michelle Obama is a man and are very interested lol

Also, Melania is not trans although she looks trannyliscious to me lol

[Cereal Escapist]

A much higher percentage than that are interested, at least to the point where they look at trans porn.

Additionally, upwards of 90% of male trump supporters believe Michelle Obama is a man and are very interested lol

Also, Melania is not trans although she looks trannyliscious to me lol

So I do like tall fit women with big boobs and narrow hips and I can tell you that neither Michelle or Melania do anything for me!!!

Now, if we were talking Barbara Bush? That's a horse of a different color.

I think the key point the OP was making with his assumption has nothing to do with porn. It is clear that nearly all men watch porn that they don't get to engage in. What is the point of watching the same type of sex you have access to. My wife is a short, curvy white woman so guess what, I tend not to watch short, curvy white women.

Watching the porn and even fucking an escort is half a world away from actually dating or marrying a transwoman. Most men are just don't have the balls to do it, hence why of the men that can openly admit to their love of the transwoman, most are really just chasers.

I marvel at all the posts on here that call a girl "marriage" or "wife" material. That is one of the most pointless thing to say on a porn board. Wife material is summed up in as a girl that you can tolerate and who can tolerate you!!!

[Huevos_Rancheros]

Very simply, this is an economic issue of supply and demand. A GG that is at least a 7 has an unlimited supply of men and women to choose from. Guys really have to step up their game to get with an attractive woman. The number of men that are willing to date a TS/CD is much smaller but so is the number of TS/CD compared to GG. You will spend more time trying to find suitable candidates. Thailand is the only place I've been where the supply of attractive TS/CD is enough to make me feel like a rock star. I say hang out wherever you are the minority relative to what you are seeking so you are the limited supply. Don't chase people who are outliers from what you are truly seeking just because they are easier to pick up.

[Gillian]

This thread is brought to you by Bonerkiller Publications ... ;)

Way to take the lurve out of chasing ... :D

[skribble1]

So many math equations involved

[SXFX]

I think your economic model may be missing a bit of economics. One of the basic principles of economics is that, unless there is some kind of entry barrier, any excess gains from a particular strategy cannot persist. That's because other people will see that it's a successful strategy and move into it until there is no longer any advantage in doing so. What is it that prevents this happening in the pickup/dating market?

Your model also seems to assume that people only care about scoring, and not who they score with. The alternative explanation for your story is that your daggy friend is happy to buy the cheapest product available (where the price of dating is the amount of time/effort/expense per success), whereas your other friends care more about quality.

There is an economic model that explains why the online dating market does not work well, which is the 'market for lemons'. The original example was the used car market, and the idea is that if buyers have no way to tell a good used car from a dud (information asymmetry) then the only cars on the market will duds because the owners of good cars will not get a high enough price. In the online dating market, people have no reliable way to know in advance whether potential dates are are good ones or duds, so the good ones will tend to stay out and and the duds will predominate.

very well said.
i'll be honest my math/economics model on this subject is far from complete and came to me while i was cleaning my house.....aka the pimp move for any woman is to take her back to your place and she sees that it's clean!.....so not much deep thought was happening.

but that said.....it's a hyper small market of single percentages here!
what 5% at best of all men are interested in honestly dating trans women?
and of the population how many women are trans? way under 5%
and of those on both sides how many "pass" the sniff test?
is he stable, is he attractive, is he well enough to do, is he safe?
is she stable, is she attractive, is she easy to get along with?

It's an interesting question isn't it?

--fyi about my friend and the low quality meat.....omg....the other day we walked into a bar and he went right for the biggest girl in the corner who had just thrown up via the WTF was on her shirt. when we asked him how he survived that mess he said "i just breathe through my mouth!" i honestly almost threw up!
sick fucker!

[natina]

the one secret is making women attracted to you and hit on you without you having too.
when I was young I was 7th grade prince,8th grade prince.....ect which made me very popular and made a bunch of women in jr high school offer up there VIRGINITY to me which i took.

I have a friend that was in a popular rock group and although unattractive he always got the prettiest girls,girls with the best figure,girls that rejected me,popular strippers,popular models ......ect., now he is balding with long hair and a ponytail and child support that's like $16,500/month and had not had a hit song in 20++years.

[BeardedOne]

Wait...

What?

I'm finally a one-percenter?

Woo-hoo!

Can I have a cookie?

[filghy2]

but that said.....it's a hyper small market of single percentages here!
what 5% at best of all men are interested in honestly dating trans women?
and of the population how many women are trans? way under 5%
and of those on both sides how many "pass" the sniff test?
is he stable, is he attractive, is he well enough to do, is he safe?
is she stable, is she attractive, is she easy to get along with?

The economists also have this covered https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_theory

[natina]

The Tranny Chaser Chaser

At one sex party, things get confusing. COJO ARTJUGGERNAUT
I’m no stranger to the walk of shame, but this is the first morning I’ve ridden the R train into Manhattan with metallic blue eye shadow smeared across the upper third of my face like a sloppy Warhol silkscreen. I’ve spent the prior evening at a bacchanal called Eden Underground: a sex party for transsexuals and their admirers in Park Slope that just rang in its one-year anniversary. What brought me to the polymorphously perverse bi-monthly Friday night was a search for gender identity’s Yeti: gay men attracted to the straight men who are attracted to transsexuals—the tranny chaser chaser.


At the party, plenty of hot, blue-collar trade search for transsexuals. Those gay men who cross-dress solely to chase these guys are called everything from “deceitful” to “blackface,” but “midlife crisis” probably comes closest. They are going after what they can’t have—dressed as men, anyway. Sweetie, Eden’s large-and-in-charge mistress of ceremonies, sums it up as cruising for men they “could never get wearing a pair of jeans on a Saturday night.”

José Muñoz, an NYU-based academic who writes extensively on gender, asks, “So they’re gay men who turn to drag to get straight-acting or butch guys?” adding, “It fits into so many fantasies of the predatory homosexual out to prey on nominally straight men.” Muñoz mentions those turn-of-the-century, New York sexual superstars along the Bowery called “fairies” that George Chauncey details in Gay New York. Many heterosexual men “alternated between male and female sexual partners,” Chauncey writes, but the fairies, those willing to oblige these working-class men, “simply offered to perform certain sexual acts, especially fellation, which many straight men enjoyed but many women (even many prostitutes) were loath to perform.”

The first thing to get one’s head around is that most of the tranny chasers themselves are straight. Bruce, a 42-year-old truck driver and Eden attendee, demonstrates his macho bona fides by opening a beer bottle with his teeth. “I’m from Long Island,” he jokingly explains of his countrified ways. “We didn’t have can openers in the woods.”

Folks like Bruce make headlines when they have famous names like Eddie Murphy or (according to transgender prostitute Toni Newman) L.L. Cool J. Soccer star Cristiano Ronaldo was reportedly caught with three transgender prostitutes. Even Matt Lauer and Gavin Rossdale, Gwen Stefani’s husband, have allegedly taken walks on the wild side. Married New York GOP ex-Congressman Christopher Lee resigned after Gawker published a Craigslist ad featuring a shirtless photo of him with the headline “Sexy Classy guy for passable TS/CD – m4t – 39 (Cap Hill)”: That’s “TS,” as in transsexual; “CD,” meaning cross-dressing; and “m4t,” male-for-transsexual.

At first blush, the codified nature of the party evokes a parochial high school prom more than a sex party. In the AstroTurfed changing area just off the entrance, a sign prohibits touching without asking permission first. Not that the reminder is necessary for Eden Underground’s attendees, who prefer to engage in “mini-dates” before walking off arm-in-arm to a quiet corner to get it on.


In the front room, where most of the socializing takes place, a leggy transsexual in tight satin pleated shorts crosses the room while Lil’ Kim’s “How Many Licks?” is playing, catches a stripper’s pole with her arm, spins to the ground, and suggestively raises and lowers her high heel. A young stud bounds up from his seat and opens his shirt to display an overly tattooed torso. She nods approvingly, runs a gloved hand over his toned abs, and they wander off together.

There’s nothing overtly gay about this party: Even oral sex is sheathed in condoms, and the industrial stench of poppers is absent. Michael Wakefield, who lives upstairs and runs the space, often attends as his alter ego, Pickles. “Some of these guys are bisexual,” Wakefield says of the trans admirers, “but most are straight-identified and the straight-identified ones are definitely not part of the queer community.” Even so, “These are all chicks with dicks,” he hastens to add. “That’s what the guys are there for. If they want a girl with a vagina, they’ll get a girl.”

Elden, a straight attendee, agrees. “Pre-op transsexuals—what are there?” he rhetorically asks. “Three of them?” We’re talking outside, where I’m back in male attire (except for that eye make-up). If I were still in drag, he assures me, he’d most definitely fuck me. So why is he willing to fuck a gay man in drag, but not any of the men he identified as gay back in the party? And why do the gay guys lusting after guys like Elden get cold feet about doing what would attract this straight trade in the first place—dressing as a woman?

“Most gay guys are really drag-phobic,” Wakefield points out. “So a lot of them don’t even see it as an option. They just won’t come back. I had a friend who came to the party as a gay guy and got no action because the focus is on the trannies.”

Wakefield cooked up his own drag persona two years ago for a pansexual play party called Spam. He has no qualms about dressing for success. As Pickles, he says, “Oh, my God, I can hook up with hot guys! The men at Eden made me want to get more outfits, try to dress sexy, and actually have it be a fun sex party for me.”

Wakefield, a veteran promoter going back to the legendary, early-’90s He’s Gotta Have It gay sex parties, concedes that his Pickles persona might be a result of his reaching mid-life. “As I get older,” he explains, “I’m still attracting guys, but when I started to dress up in drag, I was getting major positive sexual attention from very hot guys. It was like, suddenly, I had that sexual awakening I had when I was younger. I can do this thing and I’m attracting attention from very sexy guys that are willing to do pretty much anything.”


Eden’s hostess Sweetie has been throwing sex parties for trans and their admirers almost as long as Wakefield, the height being his Third Sex party at the Vault, under the once-infamous, now gentrified, triangular corner of Ninth Avenue and 14th Street. He was also slow to connect cross-dressing with sex, especially with straight guys. “When I first started doing Sweetie,” he explains, “I had no idea that men could be attracted to someone dressed up as a woman. And I was astounded by the kind of men, the absolute epitome of manhood: Strapping, thick-necked Guidos from Brooklyn with these horse cocks were sniffing around for somebody in a dress. And it totally turned me out.”

Sweetie is a drag queen, which means that he self-identifies as male and dresses that way most of the time. “As a girl, all of a sudden you’re really appreciated. It’s like manipulating your body to create this more feminine form,” he says. “I got really immersed in that world, but at the end of the day, that world is not absolute reality. On the gay spectrum, I’m an overweight, femme, balding, over-40-year-old-man. I’m like cancer in the gay world.”

Hitting one or all of these walls sexually as a gay man is something that’s echoed by many tranny chaser chasers. Andrew, 44, is a gay man who started chasing tranny chasers when he was living in Milan. One night, he caught an image in the rearview mirror of his Fiat of his cheap, plastic, neon-green earrings bouncing up and down while being double-fucked by two Italian stallions. “Now that I’m back in New York,” he says, “I visit this party. It feels less scary than it did in Milan, where I just wasn’t connecting socially and it became my only real human contact.”

Daniel Harris summed up the malaise in his memoir Diary of a Drag Queen, where he describes being a middle-aged, lonely, and sexually frustrated New Yorker until he accidentally discovered chat rooms where he dressed as a woman to lure straight guys.

The ultimate irony is that the tranny chaser doesn’t want to admit or be reminded that the “woman” he’s with is a gay man. “I think if you would tell this guy, ‘You know what? I’m a gay man and I’m only putting this on because I know you’ll be attracted to it,’ the minute you said ‘gay man,’ he wouldn’t be able to get an erection,” Sweetie notes. She also considers it demeaning to a true transsexual or even a dedicated drag queen. “Michael’s brought his little gay friends,” she complains. “He’s told them. ‘Oh, girl, come get in drag, you can get great dick.’ But when they come down the stairs and I look at what shape they’re in, I’m furious. Furious! I don’t really express it, but I’m pissed. I don’t want the face of my party to be some limping, tit-underneath-one-arm, bad Halloween drag.”


There’s something anachronistic about trans admirers—not dissimilar to the get-ups of most drag queens. Eden Underground hangs on the polarities of ’50s-style hyper-masculine and hyper-feminine to keep all its plates in the air. Maybe it’s part of the historical detritus of gay shame—trans admirers fearing being considered gay and the gay men chasing them not wanting to be sissies. “There is such a fear in gay men about laying that down and saying, ‘I’m going to be every stereotype tonight that people have thought about gay people for the past 500 years,’ ” Sweetie says, “that we identify as women.” That, and the fact that that’s the only way they’re going to be nailed by straight guys.

https://www.villagevoice.com/2011/06/22/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/
https://www.villagevoice.com/2011/06/22/the-tranny-chaser-chaser/

[johncock0]

Very simply, this is an economic issue of supply and demand. A GG that is at least a 7 has an unlimited supply of men and women to choose from. Guys really have to step up their game to get with an attractive woman. The number of men that are willing to date a TS/CD is much smaller but so is the number of TS/CD compared to GG. You will spend more time trying to find suitable candidates. Thailand is the only place I've been where the supply of attractive TS/CD is enough to make me feel like a rock star. I say hang out wherever you are the minority relative to what you are seeking so you are the limited supply. Don't chase people who are outliers from what you are truly seeking just because they are easier to pick up.

TS's and CD's can't be compared the same in regards to dating levels! Unless you really see TS's as CD's. IMO

[SXFX]

all i know is that i'm happy that i'm no longer online dating...omg i suck at that

[SXFX]

from another thread
Gg's don't like Ts because they feel threatened since they can't compete on that level
Gays in general don't like Ts
Ts are very competitive with each other, which leads to difficulties

Then there's the ultimate paradox: Ts in general don't like guys who are into Ts because they're viewed as 'chasers.' They want to meet that mythical guy who has no idea the girl he's meeting is Ts but falls in love with her anyway, which has about the same probability of happening as does winning the lottery.

In general, Ts don't know what guys want for the longer term, which is a mommy replacement. Gg's understand this and will play up to it when their need to reproduce overcomes their dislike of playing that role. Then, once reproduction occurs, the man becomes useless except for what he can contribute to her offspring's well being.